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Do you think instant gratification is ruining MMORPGs?

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  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 7,254
    Originally posted by taus01

     

    Overwhelming result as expected. This has been known for ages but people keep buying and defending shitty, fast leveling, no challenge, brainless, themepark games on this site.

    Not only that, the same people buy into the whole GW2, ESO, Chamelot Unchained and  FFXIV marketing machine and hope they get a good game. Then comes release and all the fancy talk turns out to be just lies. Dare i remember anyone about this little gem here: The GW2 Maifesto (LMAO)

    You will never get a good game if you keep buying all them shit games in the first place.

    Stop buying bad games and pre-order on empty promises.

    What game do you play? Or are you one of those posters that doesn't actually currently play any game?

  • taus01taus01 Member Posts: 1,352
    Originally posted by exile01

    You guys dont get the big picture- thats why you make those pointles threads in a 7day cycle.

    Grind= Luxury

    You cannot afford Grind in a high developed world because it takes time- and by todays standard its jsut DUMB. Your wasting your human ressource on something you dont get back. 

    Instant gratification= modern way, adapted to a high develope country.

     And yes if you still dont get the picture:

    high developed country= lots of people with bachelor degree and higher education standard.

    Thats why grind=waste of time=dumb

    And not just DUMB- its the DUMBEST thing you can do in a mmorpg.

     

    Nevermind, this is just not worth a reply. Deleted!

     

    "Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules"

    image
  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by taus01

    Stop buying bad games and pre-order on empty promises.

    What game do you play? Or are you one of those posters that doesn't actually currently play any game?

    Cyberpunk 2077? Kickstarter project. Which seems..a little..contrary to the sermon he just delivered.

    "The developers said that it won't be ready until 2015 at the earliest because of their other projects."

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • sanshi44sanshi44 Member UncommonPosts: 1,187
    Originally posted by exile01

    You guys dont get the big picture- thats why you make those pointles threads in a 7day cycle.

    Grind= Luxury

    You cannot afford Grind in a high developed world because it takes time- and by todays standard its jsut DUMB. Your wasting your human ressource on something you dont get back. 

    Instant gratification= modern way, adapted to a high develope country.

     

    And yes if you still dont get the picture:

    high developed country= lots of people with bachelor degree and higher education standard.

    Thats why grind=waste of time=dumb

    And not just DUMB- its the DUMBEST thing you can do in a mmorpg.

     

    oh and if still you guys dont know: CHINA ONLY GOT f2P GAMES BECAUSE ALL OTHER PLATFORMS WERE FORBIDDEN BY LAW!!!!!

    Ummm part in orange is realy a contradiction of the rest of the post.

    High developed companies has lots of degrees and stuff because they Grinded out there studies and passed the course. They didnt just get instant gratification and got those degree handed to them. I also bet one they earned those degree they felt pritty proud of getting them if they were just given to them its is meaningless. Was earning those degrees a wast of time??? No they wernt and its the same in a RPG. Does earning that item or a level in game make you feel good about it, yes it does. Does being given free items and loot make you feel good about it, no it doesnt.

    A MMORPG is just that your playing a roll in a world just like your doing in real life then why should it be any different than Real life appart from a different game setting. Most people want to have the good feeling of earning something rather than just being handed it to them on a silver platter because if they were just handed it for doing nothing it carrys no meaning.

  • snapfusionsnapfusion Member Posts: 954
    Originally posted by h0urg1ass

    What happened is that human nature took over.

    Humans will almost invariably choose the path of least reisistance to any goal.  The early MMO's were excruciatingly difficult, even though they were highly rewarding.  Then along came a game that took players by the hand, guided them from point to point, delivered content in neat and tidy packages, removed the difficult part, and rewarded people basically for showing up.  It exploded in popularity.

    Now other gaming companies see this and they thing to themselves "Well shit, we've been too hard on the players, they really just want an easy game with easily definable goals".  Which is true.  Nine million people are still playing the game that hands everything except the hardest content to you on a platter.

    When it comes down to it, those of us who want a return to a harsher game that doesn't hold our hands are in the minority.  Any game that goes this route from now on, such as EVE Online (and let me tell you even EVE has been dumbed way way way down from launch) will have only a niche player market.  Gaming companies don't typically design for the niche.  They design for the masses and human nature dictates that the masses want instant gratification.

    I hate to get all logical and stuff..........but this is exactly spot on.   99 percent of all MMO's these days are being designed with 10 million subs in mind.  All these devs are trying to hit the lottery, and the only way to do it is to follow the model that has done it.  Your not hitting 10 million subs with the worlds harderst MMO online.

  • loulakiloulaki Member UncommonPosts: 944

    i never missed the unreachable lvl caps, actually i hated them .. or better i would like to not be any level only for your skills like in EVE

    also i hate this lvl locked items this is just sick i prefer penalties if you havent mastered to wear heavy armor with a skin from a slayered dragon than this stupid mechanic of levels, it was good for super mario, but in D&D how many lvls are there ? usually the parties i saw were around 5 lvl ...

    image

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403
    Originally posted by sanshi44

    High developed companies has lots of degrees and stuff because they Grinded out there studies and passed the course.

    Grinded out their college loans, which remain unpaid for most of a decade...

    Sorry, it is a silly and irrelevant argument from either side.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • sanshi44sanshi44 Member UncommonPosts: 1,187
    Originally posted by taus01

     

    Overwhelming result as expected. This has been known for ages but people keep buying and defending shitty, fast leveling, no challenge, brainless, themepark games on this site.

    Not only that, the same people buy into the whole GW2, ESO, Chamelot Unchained and  FFXIV marketing machine and hope they get a good game. Then comes release and all the fancy talk turns out to be just lies. Dare i remember anyone about this little gem here: The GW2 Maifesto (LMAO)

    You will never get a good game if you keep buying all them shit games in the first place.

    Stop buying bad games and pre-order on empty promises.

    Its not that easy just to not buy the games for most people, They get unhappy with there game so they try and find a new one however there nothing new on the marker so they buy something that may look good to tie them over for something gfood and different and this is unfortuently gonna be an endless loop until Dev make somthing different.

  • sanshi44sanshi44 Member UncommonPosts: 1,187
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by sanshi44

    High developed companies has lots of degrees and stuff because they Grinded out there studies and passed the course.

    Grinded out their college loans, which remain unpaid for most of a decade...

    Sorry, it is a silly and irrelevant argument from either side.

    How do u think people will feel when they finaly get those thing paid off, Its a goal to pay off colledge loans and so on and most people feel good when they pay back that last dollar. Its like a house load how do you feel when u finaly dont need to worry bout poaying a morgage and you finaly earned that house.

    Achiveing a difficult or long term goal makes people feel good about themselfs for finaly finishing it.

  • SiveriaSiveria Member UncommonPosts: 1,416
    Originally posted by rojo6934

    mmorpgs arent real mmorpgs anymore because the devs dont want to risk doing the best. They just want to shortcut to the easiest format.

    No risk, no reward is the perfect term to be used here. As a gamer, if i dont take risks i wont achieve my in game goal. And as a developer, if they dont take risks, we end up with the crap we have these days.

    ^ gets it. They keep bascially making wow clones because its the path of least resistance, but you know, ya think these devs would stop when all of these clones are ghost towns 2-3 months after release, due to how fast you can hit cap and then how fast you can finish the content. The other problem is they do not add anything to do at endgame, yeah you can raid.. once a week, but what do you do for the other 6 days? I;d also like to see these mmo's add something to do that requires raid gear, that is not just another raid.

    Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:

    A. Proven right (if something bad happens)

    or

    B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)

    Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!

  • taus01taus01 Member Posts: 1,352
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by taus01

     

    Overwhelming result as expected. This has been known for ages but people keep buying and defending shitty, fast leveling, no challenge, brainless, themepark games on this site.

    Not only that, the same people buy into the whole GW2, ESO, Chamelot Unchained and  FFXIV marketing machine and hope they get a good game. Then comes release and all the fancy talk turns out to be just lies. Dare i remember anyone about this little gem here: The GW2 Maifesto (LMAO)

    You will never get a good game if you keep buying all them shit games in the first place.

    Stop buying bad games and pre-order on empty promises.

    What game do you play? Or are you one of those posters that doesn't actually currently play any game?

    I play a lot of games because right now that is pretty much the only thing i do for a living since i retired.

    Active Subscription: FFXI because i can always go back and there is so many things that i have not done yet even though i am a 10 year veteran.

    Active Non Subscription: None

    Inactive Online (mostly due to changes/patches): MTGO, GW2, TERA, TSW, SWTOR, Age of Wushu, ArchAge, Blade & Soul, PoE, Star Conflict, Defiance, Warface, Blacklight, FireFall, DayZ, Wurm 2.0, Salem, The Banner Saga.

    Not Online: Sniper Elite Nazi Zombie Army, Crysis 3, Kentucky Route Zero, AC3 DLC, Antichamber, War of the Eagles,  Aliens CoOp, DragonBorn, Codename Panzers and many more.

    "Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules"

    image
  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403
    Originally posted by Robokapp

    I still mine in eve every day. and many consider it most boring mmo activity ever. I like it.

     

    new mmo's lack things like that...where instead of having 'heroic battles' from login to log out and then be bored 2 weeks later, you live and do daily life things around your area/space/etc.

    Believe me, I've guilded with folks who are happy as a clam grinding mobs while watching television. For weeks on end.

    Not for me, but meh, I've long ago given up on telling anyone the "right" way to play.

    I'll be satisfied with any company that offers plentiful variety, and I know just how hard (read: not gonna happen) that is to find in a brand new title.

    Which is why I've essentially given up on brand new titles. Put it on the bookshelf, peek back in in a couple of years to check progress.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • risenbonesrisenbones Member Posts: 194

    I don't know.  How about we turn the question around a bit and see what happens.  Lets ask have MMO's really become easier or have we just been playing them for so long that we are better at playing them?

     

    Probably a question that is impossible for us on this site to answer with any degree of certainty because to do so would require us to go back to classic versions of our first MMO and play it.  If you then found that hey this game is easier than I thought wouldn't it suggest that maybe you have just become better at playing these types of MMO and the challenge to most MMO's (indeed any game) is simply the systems are new to you?  The real problem of new games is they simply don't add enough new systems or change existing systems up enough to require vetrans of the game type to adjust and figure out new ways to play the game.

    The lesser of two evils is still evil.

    There is nothing more dangerous than a true believer.

  • SiveriaSiveria Member UncommonPosts: 1,416
    Originally posted by Grahor

    Here's another little pearl of wisdom, thrown to you, people.

     

    Many complain about community in mmorpgs, and imagine a thousand reasons why the community is bad. While the reason is simple: we hate each other and consider each other total and utter idiots. Is there a single person in this thread who doesn't think that the vast majority of posters are total morans? Doesn't look this way from posts.

     

    So, what kind of a community may emerge when mmorpg players - people who hate each other and/or consider each other complete twits - meet? Well, pretty much the community we have here, or in any other game on the market.

    I honestly consider most wow players little more than brainless cattle, I mean they gotta be brainless to keep their sub open when there is nothing to do cept raid once a week when your at level cap. Some people raid log, what this is, is bascally they login to raid, then don't login to the game till the next raid.. I mean when you get to that point in the game, why even bother keeping yoru sub open? its not like the raid gear has any uses anymore, since they didn't add anything that u need the gear for that is not just another instance. Its why lately if I hit lv cap in a mmo I just quit, because there really is no reason to stick around, there is nothing worth doing TO stick around for.

     

    Insta gratification has ruined mmo's and we can thank wow for that. MMO players from the wow generation are all bascally whiney little bitches that cry and moan when anything is not easy mode, and can't be done fast. The endgame needs to take time but they also need to make it fun, I hit lv 59 in rift then quit because I didn't feel like grinding the same daily quests for months just to get the gear I need to raid, while its not the time needed thats bad, its the fact its just boring.

    Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:

    A. Proven right (if something bad happens)

    or

    B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)

    Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!

  • sanshi44sanshi44 Member UncommonPosts: 1,187
    [mod edit]

    The MMO community has gotten worst over the years, Pre WoW even Vanila WoW community was realy good newer games are usualy not so much. The Biggest difference between the Pre WoW and Post WoW games is that you dont need one another, once you take away the reason to help each other out the community seems to degrade somewhat rapidly. All the games ive seen where players they dont know need to work together to achive eachother goal the community has been realy good. While games you can do mostly Solo the community has been terrible, So from personaly experience if they were to make a game where the community acualy needed one another players will probaly start to treat each other better.

    Its easy to be a jackass to people when u dont need others help especialy over the internet where they never know who you are.

  • SiveriaSiveria Member UncommonPosts: 1,416
    Originally posted by sanshi44
    Originally posted by Grahor

    Here's another little pearl of wisdom, thrown to you, people.

     

    Many complain about community in mmorpgs, and imagine a thousand reasons why the community is bad. While the reason is simple: we hate each other and consider each other total and utter idiots. Is there a single person in this thread who doesn't think that the vast majority of posters are total morans? Doesn't look this way from posts.

     

    So, what kind of a community may emerge when mmorpg players - people who hate each other and/or consider each other complete twits - meet? Well, pretty much the community we have here, or in any other game on the market.

    The MMO community has gotten worst over the years, Pre WoW even Vanila WoW community was realy good newer games are usualy not so much. The Biggest difference between the Pre WoW and Post WoW games is that you dont need one another, once you take away the reason to help each other out the community seems to degrade somewhat rapidly. All the games ive seen where players they dont know need to work together to achive eachother goal the community has been realy good. While games you can do mostly Solo the community has been terrible, So from personaly experience if they were to make a game where the community acualy needed one another players will probaly start to treat each other better.

    Its easy to be a jackass to people when u dont need others help especialy over the internet where they never know who you are.

    Yeah I've notices this too, in mmo's that are bascally solo games with a chat system (read pretty much every mmo after wow). The community is garbage because well, you don't need anyone's help really to do much. Its why I'd like to see a mmorpg where you can only have 1 char, and you pretty much have to group to get anything done. Only mmorpg I know of thats still like this is ff11. Though in ff11, its been recently made fairly trivial to hit level 99 in it.

    Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:

    A. Proven right (if something bad happens)

    or

    B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)

    Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!

  • sanshi44sanshi44 Member UncommonPosts: 1,187
    Originally posted by Siveria
    Originally posted by sanshi44
    Originally posted by Grahor

    [mod edit]

    The MMO community has gotten worst over the years, Pre WoW even Vanila WoW community was realy good newer games are usualy not so much. The Biggest difference between the Pre WoW and Post WoW games is that you dont need one another, once you take away the reason to help each other out the community seems to degrade somewhat rapidly. All the games ive seen where players they dont know need to work together to achive eachother goal the community has been realy good. While games you can do mostly Solo the community has been terrible, So from personaly experience if they were to make a game where the community acualy needed one another players will probaly start to treat each other better.

    Its easy to be a jackass to people when u dont need others help especialy over the internet where they never know who you are.

    Yeah I've notices this too, in mmo's that are bascally solo games with a chat system (read pretty much every mmo after wow). The community is garbage because well, you don't need anyone's help really to do much. Its why I'd like to see a mmorpg where you can only have 1 char, and you pretty much have to group to get anything done. Only mmorpg I know of thats still like this is ff11. Though in ff11, its been recently made fairly trivial to hit level 99 in it.

    Also Global chat is also another magnet that tend to make a bad community, There may only be a couple of ignorant people on the game but there also the loudest give them a global chat and they tear it up with somewhat abusive/unwanted messages and new player see that messages and do one of 3 things, Quit the game, Ignore the chat or join in which just starts a snowballing effect. May of started with a couple ignorant players but soon enough there hundreds of them. So IMO Global chats should be removed shouldnt even be in a RPG game in the first place imo goes agaist a RPG unless every players gets world wide telepathic ability.

  • BanaghranBanaghran Member Posts: 869
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Robokapp

    I still mine in eve every day. and many consider it most boring mmo activity ever. I like it.

     

    new mmo's lack things like that...where instead of having 'heroic battles' from login to log out and then be bored 2 weeks later, you live and do daily life things around your area/space/etc.

    Believe me, I've guilded with folks who are happy as a clam grinding mobs while watching television. For weeks on end.

    Not for me, but meh, I've long ago given up on telling anyone the "right" way to play.

    I'll be satisfied with any company that offers plentiful variety, and I know just how hard (read: not gonna happen) that is to find in a brand new title.

    Which is why I've essentially given up on brand new titles. Put it on the bookshelf, peek back in in a couple of years to check progress.

    Quite right.

    If we want to blame something, blame too much business thinking, cost consciousness and cynicism.

    <Insert babble about games becoming greasy spoon diners instead of proper restaurants.>

    Flame on!

    :)

  • Abuz0rAbuz0r Member UncommonPosts: 550

    to do a dungeon in WoW  you used to have to recruit a tank, healer and some dps.  Now you click a button, and sit in line, and even though it takes 30 minutes for DPS sometimes, it's faster than recruiting your party and running to the dungeon.

    You never have to learn serious social skills, because if you decide you don't like someones shoulders, you can boot them from the group and they are replaced instantly.

    This is instant gratification, and it teaches people that they never have to learn to tolerate people who don't have the ideal gear set, and it teaches that they don't have to have any patience to work towards their goal.

     

    Sure it's a video game, but the instant gratification just turns it into a repetitive motion instead of an actual rewarding challenge.

     

    Notice that 90% of the loot that drops in WoW gets turned into shards or passed on, this isn't because everyone is great, it's because it was so easy to get in the first place.  Everything is easy. 

    I respect everyones opinion, and there's an enormous market of instant gratification games.  Unfortunately, there's no modern alternative for the players like me who want a challenging time-sink like runescape was or lineage 2 originally was.

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  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403
    Originally posted by risenbones

    I don't know.  How about we turn the question around a bit and see what happens.  Lets ask have MMO's really become easier or have we just been playing them for so long that we are better at playing them?

    By the early 90s, I had spent enough time plyaing RPGs (Kings Quest, Ultima series, PNP games) in general that the evolving mechanics could rarely surprise any more.

    Moved away from my BBS(es) and into online services (GEnie, Compuserve, later AOL), discovered the joy of multiplayer games (starting with Bridge, of all things, poker, chess, etc.). Later MPBT (mechas on AOL), MUD-ish games (Kesmai, Gemstone, and the whole MUD universe, in the last days of term-program+phone lines+modem era, as AOL was spiraling down toward its inevitable demise to broadband).

    Many of those games, including Gemstone, made the leap on to the internet and began direct-billing titles. Essential precursors to MMOs, someone had to learn what to do and not do with billing the customers individually. Also, the official death of Hourly Access (and UO opening its doors, nearly (but not exactly) simultaneously).

    The birth of MMOs. From the very beginning, they were (mechanically) very familiar, something of a compromise between Ultima (RPGs), Doom, Diablo, etc. The same (good old wasd, click a button to use this ability, ezsauce).

    I personally don't believe the mystical "hard" MMO was ever a real thing. Oh sure, there were lots of manly ways to pound your chest, for those arrested adolescents who still enjoyed posing a Hardc0res(!!!), a term stolen from early-80s "hackers" and 1337speak. Adopted by players who desperately needed to be better than other players, in order to enjoy their games, had to "win". Type 1's, mostly.

    As the games grew more competitive, the need for external affirmation also grew. Particularly when WoW drew in the console crowd, in huge numbers, the WoW/EQ trash talk began instantly, and still continues to this day.

    Better at playing them? MMO's have been around for more than a decade, how could we not be?

    Grown up a little, posing less important to gamers? There is no sign of that, any time soon.

    But to deny that games have no also gotten "easier" (less brain engaging, perhaps?) over the same period would also not be the whole truth, by far.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403
    [mod edit]

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • GravargGravarg Member UncommonPosts: 3,424

    MMOs used to be for masochists that liked to punish themselves.  Now they're for everyone.  I miss the days:

    • When dying actually pissed you off.
    • When going "Ding" actually meant something; when reaching level 50, 60, or 100 was a great achievement that was splattered across everyone's screen server wide.
    • When in a group, if someone doesn't know what they're doing, you showed them how to do it, not just kick them out.
    • When crafters ruled the world and could make tons of money to buy protection for gathering materials.
    • When there were multiple ways or areas to level up. Today it's maybe two ways to go if you're lucky.
    • When there was exploration, and getting lost was an hourly occurence.
    • When running from town to town was actually dangerous.  You had to watch out for players and npcs.
    • When people played with honor and you could have a full loot full pvp game, without people griefing or ganking.
    • When guilds were around to police areas and help those that got griefed or ganked.  Didn't need GMs to fix corpse camping.  If you did it to someone, there's about 20 players coming to do it to you for the next hour.
    • When MMOs had no real endgame.  If you reach the maximum level, there was still plenty of work to be done (and not just raiding).
    • When you met complete strangers out in the world, and you became friends within hours of killing the same mobs or doing the same quests.
    • When crafting took forever and required you to move all over, not only to gather materials, but to actually make things as well.
    I think you get my drift.  They've taken so many things out of MMOs, the newer ones just aren't any fun anymore.  For me, Fun is number one requirement on my list.  Forget graphics, sounds, music, even gameplay.  If I'm not having fun, then I'm moving on.
  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403

    Naw, fresh alts carry no weight. I do wish people would learn that.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • BenediktBenedikt Member UncommonPosts: 1,406
    Originally posted by Gravarg

    MMOs used to be for masochists that liked to punish themselves.  Now they're for everyone.  I miss the days:

    • When dying actually pissed you off.
    • When going "Ding" actually meant something; when reaching level 50, 60, or 100 was a great achievement that was splattered across everyone's screen server wide.
    • When in a group, if someone doesn't know what they're doing, you showed them how to do it, not just kick them out.
    • When crafters ruled the world and could make tons of money to buy protection for gathering materials.
    • When there were multiple ways or areas to level up. Today it's maybe two ways to go if you're lucky.
    • When there was exploration, and getting lost was an hourly occurence.
    • When running from town to town was actually dangerous.  You had to watch out for players and npcs.
    • When people played with honor and you could have a full loot full pvp game, without people griefing or ganking.
    • When guilds were around to police areas and help those that got griefed or ganked.  Didn't need GMs to fix corpse camping.  If you did it to someone, there's about 20 players coming to do it to you for the next hour.
    • When MMOs had no real endgame.  If you reach the maximum level, there was still plenty of work to be done (and not just raiding).
    • When you met complete strangers out in the world, and you became friends within hours of killing the same mobs or doing the same quests.
    • When crafting took forever and required you to move all over, not only to gather materials, but to actually make things as well.
    I think you get my drift.  They've taken so many things out of MMOs, the newer ones just aren't any fun anymore.  For me, Fun is number one requirement on my list.  Forget graphics, sounds, music, even gameplay.  If I'm not having fun, then I'm moving on.

    +1

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