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Do you think instant gratification is ruining MMORPGs?

Abuz0rAbuz0r Member UncommonPosts: 550

MMORPGs were once a genre of endless levels where players were on a scale compared to one another, not on a scale compared to the maximum level achievable.

New games always boast about their maximum level, what you can have once you arrive at it, and how long it takes to get there.

Crafting typically requires you to stand in one place, or to visit between the crafting place and an auction block, and the levels rise up 2 to 5 per visit.

Also, in modern mmo games, you're a noob until you're max level, and then you're still a noob.

Once you reach maximum level, it transforms into a dungeon running game, or a repetitive pvp grind, or you simply keep doing quests and the levels go away.

The genre was never meant to be any of these things.  They were supposed to be a serious time sink with no top, no end game, no actual possibility of getting to maximum level.  I'm not talking about since WOW, I'm talking about 10 years ago + when the genre was what it was meant to be.

Reaching maximum level in your crafting skill used to be a year long endeavour, now it's a month, and the year long endeavour is to get the recipe books to craft the item.

We used to have crafting chars that we trained on 8 hour shifts around the clock getting towards maximum level, and we calculated how many months it'd take of dedication to get there.  Now 1 guy can sit there for an hour a day and get there in a month.

You used to have to search for what you were looking for, and maybe get frustrated and go google it.  Now theres always an arrow or dotted line under your character pointing towards your next quest destination.  There's this giant city, with no need to ever explore it because you're always directed to the next spot.  Sure I know guildwars bandaided it with the climb a wall and see a cutscene thing but that's kinda pathetic because if you just want to quest, it's a guided tour.

I'll just sum this up by saying, people get what they're working to achieve, there are just a giant pile of short term goals with no real long term goals.  People reach a batch of their short term goals and leave, or they realize that the new mmo game they're playing is just a hamster wheel of short term goals (where sometimes every stop is a trip to an item mall) and leave.

What happened to the old fashioned never-ending story mmorpgs where there was a theoretical maximum level, but no real hope of getting there because you'd have to spend 3 years 18 hours a day and get a divorce.  Where if you really wanted to be maximum crafting level you better have an alt and 3 people from your guild chipping in.

Every new title we see, deep down when we say we're hoping for a challenge, we really mean we're tired of the rat-race to maximum level followed by instance running to get the latest tier set followed by standing in a building chatting with other bored people.  With the option of pvping which requires you to work on a second set of gear which you have problems finding a place to store.

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Comments

  • Cod_EyeCod_Eye Member UncommonPosts: 1,016
    They have taken time sinks away, some are good some are bad.  Most MMO's are pointless these days.
  • VindicarVindicar Member UncommonPosts: 138

    Virtually impossible to reach lvl cap is not what is missing to me, but I like it.

    Let's just say that the concept of totally-level-locked-content sucks.

    Then an unreachable or almost unreachable lvl cap is just a plus for those (like me) who likes such feature.

    Still voted Yes ofc.

    Old school french hardcore whiner. Online since T4C.

    I was "Namless" and "Daroot" in AO (Rk2)
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  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,722

    mmorpgs arent real mmorpgs anymore because the devs dont want to risk doing the best. They just want to shortcut to the easiest format.

    No risk, no reward is the perfect term to be used here. As a gamer, if i dont take risks i wont achieve my in game goal. And as a developer, if they dont take risks, we end up with the crap we have these days.





  • H0urg1assH0urg1ass Member EpicPosts: 2,380

    What happened is that human nature took over.

    Humans will almost invariably choose the path of least reisistance to any goal.  The early MMO's were excruciatingly difficult, even though they were highly rewarding.  Then along came a game that took players by the hand, guided them from point to point, delivered content in neat and tidy packages, removed the difficult part, and rewarded people basically for showing up.  It exploded in popularity.

    Now other gaming companies see this and they thing to themselves "Well shit, we've been too hard on the players, they really just want an easy game with easily definable goals".  Which is true.  Nine million people are still playing the game that hands everything except the hardest content to you on a platter.

    When it comes down to it, those of us who want a return to a harsher game that doesn't hold our hands are in the minority.  Any game that goes this route from now on, such as EVE Online (and let me tell you even EVE has been dumbed way way way down from launch) will have only a niche player market.  Gaming companies don't typically design for the niche.  They design for the masses and human nature dictates that the masses want instant gratification.

  • NadiaNadia Member UncommonPosts: 11,798

    the mmo playerbase is much larger than it was 10 years ago

    the "old school" gamers are a niche crowd

  • BrianshoBriansho Member UncommonPosts: 3,586
    People used to take the time to actually learn how to play the game. You know, get used to the game mechanics and develop skills. Now you have people dropping 60 on a game then demanding the developers tweak the game to fit their busy lifestyle.

    Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!

  • kostantiskostantis Member UncommonPosts: 29

    also,

    please do not forget that the market became different, and in order to get your product released, you have to bring up the big name to the investors

    try pitchig for a "game built with love for a special niche audience that really loves gaming at its most hardcore and with maximum complexity, a project that will not bring tons of cash but the growing love, respect and support of those who actually stay with it in the long-run and after the initial learning curve -sorry, not curve, vertical wall-, a game that requires you to evote your life to it, even though you are now into mid-30s and cannot hole-up in your man(ok and woman)-cave for 6-7 hours/day at least and despite the fact that those who can do that, are probably too young to appretiate its beauty! We will be a hidden gem! or at least a title woth of reverence but one that people will only mention at nerd contests"

    you think there is much potential for that?

    as another member of the forum mentioned, I agree that there should be time-sinks, and superhardoce and permadeath etc games, even though we, the old (sob) guard, cannot play them like we could. I am full into a game like that cause i learned to enjoy its concept and take my time with things. Unfortunately, since the market is not niche anymore, our fellow old timer gamers-turned-producers/developers (since EVERYBODY in the industry seems to be an avid player *i puke now*) aim for the money! (and they should, its their right)

    So most here are not the majority, not the average player and should probably accept that they should play niche and stop complaining about the AAA titles catering to the masses.

    We weren't the masses, we were blaming them for their behaviour and now we want to force our niche tastes on them? shame on us, boooooo, burn us witches, somebody get the torces and the pitchforks and.... Salem anyone?

  • PivotelitePivotelite Member UncommonPosts: 2,145

    Instant gratification has ruined MMOs for me, developers are starting to realize they can cater to the old school players as well.

     

    Take Jagex for example, they have just launched old school runescape servers, 100% non-dumbed down, carebear free, extremely difficult to progress gameplay. There's not even an auction house, all aquisition of materials is done player to player.

     

    These "old school" servers have more members playing them than the current Runescape servers.

    image

  • ThaneThane Member EpicPosts: 3,534

    there is one thing that is ruining mmos, and that's the players.

    nothing else to blame, no matter how long you guys search.

     

    seriously, play a game when you have fun doing so, stop playing it when it's not fun.

     

    thats the way it works, we dont need 1000 theoretical posts about "why mmos are ruined".

    your talking ruins it.

     

     

    there is no reason you HAVE to play a game  that is no fun to you. your clique plays it? fine, play it IF YOU LIKE IT or DONT!

    stop this dumb mass hype. i didnt smoke because my friends did, i wont play games just for them.

     

    become YOU. stop being THEM.

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • VikingGamerVikingGamer Member UncommonPosts: 1,350

    "Do you think instant gratification is ruining MMORPGs?"

    No, I think that people who think every game should be built to their own personal preferences are ruining MMORPGs.

    All die, so die well.

  • sketocafesketocafe Member UncommonPosts: 950
    [mod edit]

    [mod edit]

    OP, You're right. Easily met short term goals don't lend themselves to longevity. I could resub to wow today and level a character again, grind gear and find a raiding group and take down all the content. It wouldn't be hard because I know that game and understand what I would need to do to accomplish that goal. The reason I won't is because when I've done that, they'll have no other goals for me but to do the same thing again, but slightly different. It would be the same if my goal was high-level arenas or bgs. You go out and do it and all that's left is to do it again next season with a few differences due to class balancing. There is fun along the way, but having the same goal, again and again gets tiresome. Friends in WoW kept me going for a while, but eventually the 'been there, done that,' feeling, coupled with simplifying of game aspects I liked overpowered the communities influence in keeping me logged in.

    I never played EQ, but from what I've heard, what you had to go through to get epics was, well, epic. I've heard about long-ass quests to get your Cock-Ring of Magnificence. I'd be all over that if I could spend a month on a questline to do achieve a goal. Yes it's a time sink, but it's a damn sight better time sink to me than spending a month repeating content once a week  for a month so I can get lucky with rng drops and rng loot rolls. 

    The thing is, never ending levelling would work out to grow stale as well if the next goal is always level up. We simply need to be offered more to do than the same goal over and again. The length it might take for me to reach that goal might have me around longer, but if the goal itself is unchanged, and a variety of other goals not offered, I'll still be gone in the end.

  • CaldrinCaldrin Member UncommonPosts: 4,505
    100% YES instant gratification has made MMORPGs worse..
  • WightyWighty Member UncommonPosts: 699
    Don't hate the game.... hate the player....

    What are your other Hobbies?

    Gaming is Dirt Cheap compared to this...

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,916
    Originally posted by Nadia

    the mmo playerbase is much larger than it was 10 years ago

    the "old school" gamers are a niche crowd

    The MMO playerbase is several orders of magnitude bigger than it was 10 years ago.

    But "old school" gamers are not a rare species that existed in a brief window of time. It's just a tag we hang on people that prefer a certain style of game play.

     

    Instant gratification has actually made MMO's better... for those players who demand instant gratification... image

    And all signs indicate that the majority of current "MMO" players love their instant gratification.

  • BurntvetBurntvet Member RarePosts: 3,465
    Originally posted by SpottyGekko

    Originally posted by Nadia
    the mmo playerbase is much larger than it was 10 years ago the "old school" gamers are a niche crowd

    The MMO playerbase is several orders of magnitude bigger than it was 10 years ago.

    But "old school" gamers are not a rare species that existed in a brief window of time. It's just a tag we hang on people that prefer a certain style of game play.

     

    Instant gratification has actually made MMO's better... for those players who demand instant gratification... image

    And all signs indicate that the majority of current "MMO" players love their instant gratification.

     

    Tell that to all the fired jackasses that made TOR.
  • maplestonemaplestone Member UncommonPosts: 3,099
    I've never reached max item-level in any game out there.
  • freakkyfreakky Member UncommonPosts: 113

    Lot of games can't pull this off. They lack depth. Need more quests ranging in time it takes to finsh to how hard they are. More unique items of which are not only for high levels and are still useful when you are high level. Unique mob that have random chances to drop unique items. I loved and hated camping mobs for items but it gave me option of something else to do.

     

    One other big problems I feel is population. Having enough people on so you don't have to be lfg all day. Today I think they could do some kinda of cross server thing to help that but people trying be best on each server wouldn't like that. Other thing is there would be limited camping spots if the population was to high for a level bracket but if you could change to different server to get a open spot. Then it kinda takes you out of the world and you lose the immersion.

     

    Pass level 20 or so I think it should be group only and you can't solo.

     

    I don't feel this game will happen. I would be better off playing one of the old games still around. I'll dream and hope something good comes. It just seems to get worse as time goes on.

    Good lucks and have fun. 
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,373
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    Originally posted by dave6660
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Time for this thread again already?

    It's "instant gratification"'s turn.  We've done "F2P vs P2P", "death penalties",  "who's most popular" and "PvE vs PvP" more recently.  Did we miss anything along the way?

    Themepark vs Sandbox? I think that hasn't had yet a whacking.

    That's because the Mod's won't let us discuss it except in the one "mega-thread" which devolved into uselessness about 6 months ago.

    image

    At the end of the day we all have opinions on what has "changed" MMO's from whatever model we preferred (or hated)  to the current state of the gameplay that we eschew.

    Some think the genre gets better every day, others think it's heading straight down. All a matter of your preferences at the end of the day.

    Oh, and to make sure I somewhat responded to the topic, I'm one of the rare No votes so far, I really don't enjoy games with never ending leveling curves, because at the end of the day it favors those who have a ton of time (or those where 5 people play the same character 24/7) and give them an advantage I'll never equal. (I have always been a more casual player.)

    Give me another progression system like EVE or even DAOC back in it's heyday and I'll be happy.

     

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  • theAsnatheAsna Member UncommonPosts: 324

     

    An unreachable level cap or unreachable skill cap would have at least (hopefully?) one good side effect. Players would stop being concerned about reching the cap and just start to have fun right where they are now (provided the game mechanics encourage that).

  • BCuseBCuse Member Posts: 140
    i enjoy the challenge,  and i like building my character over a period of time.  i also like an economy where items take some time and skill to craft.   
  • apocolusterapocoluster Member UncommonPosts: 1,326
      I think forums have ruined gaming....that and hotpockets

    No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin

  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001
    Instant gratification is a perversion of gaming introduced by those that has probably analysed human behaviour and distiller out the addictive elements that give best return for the (cynical) dev house. A great parent introduces their children to clubs and activities, the bad parent keeps that sweety tin filled and ready for whenever the child wants some love - nice and cheap whatever the cost!

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Kyleran

    At the end of the day we all have opinions on what has "changed" MMO's from whatever model we preferred (or hated)  to the current state of the gameplay that we eschew.

    Some think the genre gets better every day, others think it's heading straight down. All a matter of your preferences at the end of the day.

     

    This ^^^ all is just a matter of preference.

    Personally, today's MMORPGs are MUCH better games today than in UO/EQ days.

  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 9,737
    One of the reasons why I always like Anarchy Online and keep playing it today was that it was hard for me to reach level cap.....In fact, after 8 years my highest is still 140 (200 is max for us free players)...I always felt I had something to work for and some goal that I will someday reach....To me that is what keeps a game fun....When I played vanilla WoW I remember hitting level 50 fairly quick (week I think) and jsut thinking how the game was basically over for me once I hit max because Im not realyl a raider or a gear grinder...I need that carrot of always improving my character...So in response to teh OP's question, yes instant gratification has ruined almsot all MMOs the last few years and really I blame WoW for that.
  • ariasaitchoariasaitcho Member UncommonPosts: 112

    You guys have forgotten the P2P vs. F2P/P2W thread for this week.

     

    Seriously though, I'm one of the increasingly rare players who actually reads the quests and manually moves to the location specified in the quest text. I know, wierd huh. I'm annoyed by the "you can reach max lvl in a week" crowd and boggled by the devs/publishers who reward that behavior in CB/OBT and first weeks of open release. "Get free mount/gear/title for reaching max lvl!". Yeah reaching max has what to do with bug testing again?

     

    We need some bug spray to rid us of the infestation of locusts. It's not so much the style of gameplay, but the type of players that are playing; that is the real issue.

    image
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