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Foundation Principle 6

Ice-QueenIce-Queen USA, GAPosts: 2,451Member Uncommon

http://citystateentertainment.com/camelotunchained/

I love what I'm hearing still. Thanks for keeping us informed of your vision for CU.

image

What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot

Comments

  • NibsNibs .Posts: 216Member Uncommon

    I too like what I'm hearing.

    In all honesty the very best thing I'm hearing is that Mark knows he is not going to make everybody happy with some his decision and is fine with that.

    Too many devs (probably at the insistence of the investors and/or publishers) try to please too many of the people, too much of the time.

  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon

    "We can experiment, take some chances and yes, every so often I will once again be a target of tar and feathers because we tried something that didn’t work out so well but that’s okay and frankly, how it should be because the core RvR-players would not want us to pursue the safer path."

    AH, refreshing. The reality is, balance in this universe, the real universe we live in, is almost entirely non existant. Unbalance is life, it's human, it's real, and it exists in game worlds as much as our worlds. So can we expect an ever going balance battler? Yes, obviously. Which is fine, it's part of life, and I can't wait to see the FOTM come roaring back lol.

  • Lore84Lore84 NorthamptonPosts: 69Member

    I hope that going for fewer combinations than DAOC allows them to release with a varied and truly interesting spread of classes. The worst crime would be to have the classes release without being polished properly but i realise that is why he isn't going to shoot for too many.

    On the other hand, not enough would be bad too. I suppose one argument could be that if he released with more then we would be able to thoroughly play test them before release, rather than them trying to add the new classes post-release and have balancing issues because of it. A reminder of how this can go badly is the classes added with most of DAOC's expansions; unbalanced and often not helpful to a group.

     

     

    Ex-DAOC, Excalibur

  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon

    I am glad to hear they want to start small and build up like EVE and Mech Warrior. Start small, make it great, make it work, add later. The nice thing about clases and races is, they can always add more, and when they do it opens up replay value and adds interesting content for us to explore (especially since they are pushing for boon and bane choices). I would rather start with a healer and a warrior than to start with 30 classes, 28 of which are sub par, glitchy, and uneventful (I'm looking at you launch SWG). To say I am excited is an understatement.

  • StilerStiler Athens, TNPosts: 599Member

    Sounds good to me, and I agree on some points. Races do need to feel unique/different, as well as classes.

    I just hope this doens't lead to min-maxers and classes all being stuck in the same race/class combo.

    Hopeofully there's room for people to choose unique race/closs combo's and build them differently,  Rather then sticking with a similar style, more depth an dplayer freedom/choices, etc.

     

    for example a race that's geared toward magic natively (IE how elves are generally treated in many mmo's), but you don't want to play as a generic elf mage, instead you want to play as a emelee fighter elf, but because of your races natural magic affinity, your melee warrior uses magic in various ways to enhance his melee combat, vs the other races who don't use magic with their melee combat. Thus both races are different/unique, but both are VIABLE at doing a similar role, but play and look vastly different, with each have advantages/disadvantages different from one another.

    If that makes sense to anyone.

     

  • meddyckmeddyck Athens, GAPosts: 1,140Member Uncommon

    I'm glad to hear they will try to make different classes in each realm. Different races was always going to be there (you weren't going to play an Arthurian Kobold or a Viking Highlander). This will for sure be harder to balance. The important balance things for me are make sure if there is a very useful ability in one realm that the other realms also have it even if it is on a different class (think insta mezz and end regen in DAOC). And make sure that no one class does vastly more damage than any other class in the game or any comparable class in the other  realms (warlocks).

    It seems like the minimum set of classes for each realm are:

    • 1 primary healer
    • 1 secondary or hybrid healer
    • 1 dps caster
    • 1 pet caster
    • 1 assassin
    • 1 archer
    • 1 heavy melee
    • 1 dps melee
    • 1 hybrid melee
    You could leave out the secondary healer and pet caster for release if needed. If class design went very well, you could add additional casters and hybrids.
     
    Another thing that goes without saying (even though it really isn't as important as people made it out to be in DAOC) is that each realm should have the exact same number of total classes.
     
    Don't worry, Mark, I and others will let you know when you screw up and make a new animist or vampiir class.

    Camelot Unchained Backer
    DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  • meddyckmeddyck Athens, GAPosts: 1,140Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Stiler

    Sounds good to me, and I agree on some points. Races do need to feel unique/different, as well as classes.

    I just hope this doens't lead to min-maxers and classes all being stuck in the same race/class combo.

    I don't know if you played DAOC, but that game handled it about like you want. There were differences in starting stats and racial spell resistances but by end game those differences were not so large that a kobold warrior, lurikeen champion, or highlander scout weren't viable. In some instances going with the unexpected race choice for a class was a bonus due to the deception. Enemies would attack your kobold warrior thinking he was a shaman for instance meanwhile your real shaman was free to buff shear and disease.

    Camelot Unchained Backer
    DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  • General_Dru-ZodGeneral_Dru-Zod Unknown, CAPosts: 136Member
    Originally posted by meddyck
    Originally posted by Stiler

    Sounds good to me, and I agree on some points. Races do need to feel unique/different, as well as classes.

    I just hope this doens't lead to min-maxers and classes all being stuck in the same race/class combo.

    I don't know if you played DAOC, but that game handled it about like you want. There were differences in starting stats and racial spell resistances but by end game those differences were not so large that a kobold warrior, lurikeen champion, or highlander scout weren't viable. In some instances going with the unexpected race choice for a class was a bonus due to the deception. Enemies would attack your kobold warrior thinking he was a shaman for instance meanwhile your real shaman was free to buff shear and disease.

    This.

    Rolled a Frostalf Shadowblade and was often mistaken for a spiritmaster or runemaster.

    image

  • SmorakSmorak Saint Petersburg, FLPosts: 62Member
    Originally posted by Xobdnas

    I am glad to hear they want to start small and build up like EVE and Mech Warrior. Start small, make it great, make it work, add later. The nice thing about clases and races is, they can always add more, and when they do it opens up replay value and adds interesting content for us to explore (especially since they are pushing for boon and bane choices). I would rather start with a healer and a warrior than to start with 30 classes, 28 of which are sub par, glitchy, and uneventful (I'm looking at you launch SWG). To say I am excited is an understatement.

    LOL there's no PVE.  What would be the point of exploring?  The object is to kill or you will be killed.  Roam around and you will die... supposedly.

  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Smorak
    Originally posted by Xobdnas I am glad to hear they want to start small and build up like EVE and Mech Warrior. Start small, make it great, make it work, add later. The nice thing about clases and races is, they can always add more, and when they do it opens up replay value and adds interesting content for us to explore (especially since they are pushing for boon and bane choices). I would rather start with a healer and a warrior than to start with 30 classes, 28 of which are sub par, glitchy, and uneventful (I'm looking at you launch SWG). To say I am excited is an understatement.
    LOL there's no PVE.  What would be the point of exploring?  The object is to kill or you will be killed.  Roam around and you will die... supposedly.

    If we have to find resources, that is exploring. If play a new race we have to learn it's ins and outs, that is also exploring. I assume the game will have more land mass than Alterec Valley, so while certain places might be more heavily entrenched in battle, I'm sure other parts will be open to explore for resources.

  • GaladournGaladourn AthensPosts: 1,052Member
    I was wondering, how many classes would be considered "too few" for the people here? 
  • RaagnarzRaagnarz North Las Vegas, NVPosts: 269Member Uncommon

    When you weigh the fans desires for variety to costs and development time of numerous races/calsses, for such a small team they'll have to start small. If the reception is solid then expanding them can happen steadily. Personally I'd like 3-5 races and  6-8 classes per realm at that start. That is probably more than what will be available based on what Mark has said, but that is a good start for the game.

     

    Balancing though is an illusion. It never really happens. RPS is a decent way of balance but its still an arbitrary one that doesn't work. Its better than micromanaging every little thing though I will agree. The pinnacle balancing system I have ever played was Shadowbane. Their balance "system" was to not really balance at all. They allowed the players so much freedom in creating/designing their class, that it allowed the player to roll counters to other players. Due to this the players balanced themselves. A year after the game came out, players still created new specs/designs for characters would be a god for a week. A player could design something that would kill 80% of the player base 100% of the time. Then another player could create something that would kill that player 100% of the time. The dev team of Shadowbane tweaked skills without a doubt but beauty of their system was the players could take class balance into their own hands with something as simple as...freedom.

  • HokibukisaHokibukisa Midland, GAPosts: 185Member
    Originally posted by Galadourn
    I was wondering, how many classes would be considered "too few" for the people here? 

    I don't think he said fewer classes but races.

    But I would want at least 2 classes per archtype, then they could add hybrids later on.

    Oh and personally I would expect at least 3 races per realm to start out with. And honestly 3 is good. In Midgard for example, you could have started with Norse, of course, the iconic dwarf, and trolls to round them out. Hibernia has to have elves and celts, and the firbolg could round them out. Albion could have briton, avalonian, and .. something new, a non-human of some kind. Maybe the half-giant makes sense. Albion was a bit bland for me when I first started playing cause it was the land of a bunch of humans. They didn't do a good enough job of making avalonians feel different from humans.

    image

  • MarkJacobsMarkJacobs CEO City State Entertainment Fairfax, VAPosts: 473Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Hokibukisa
    Originally posted by Galadourn
    I was wondering, how many classes would be considered "too few" for the people here? 

    I don't think he said fewer classes but races.

    But I would want at least 2 classes per archtype, then they could add hybrids later on.

    Both, at least right now. I'd rather be conservative in my initial goals/promises than over promise and under deliver.  That ain't happening again.

    If all goes well, we can roll out more than we expected and people will be happy. If we roll out the number that we said we would, then people will be happy. If we roll out fewer than I said we would, then we suck. :)

    Mark Jacobs
    CEO, City State Entertainment

  • skyexileskyexile MelbournePosts: 692Member


    Originally posted by Smorak
    Originally posted by Xobdnas I am glad to hear they want to start small and build up like EVE and Mech Warrior. Start small, make it great, make it work, add later. The nice thing about clases and races is, they can always add more, and when they do it opens up replay value and adds interesting content for us to explore (especially since they are pushing for boon and bane choices). I would rather start with a healer and a warrior than to start with 30 classes, 28 of which are sub par, glitchy, and uneventful (I'm looking at you launch SWG). To say I am excited is an understatement.
    LOL there's no PVE.  What would be the point of exploring?  The object is to kill or you will be killed.  Roam around and you will die... supposedly.

    You're taking his use of the word "explore" too literally. What he means is that by adding a new class and race it can totally shift the dynmics of balance, and the explorationg would be the theory crafting or min maxing and testing out new builds. where as before your Norse Warrior may have been the best choice for your spec of 2Her Melee DPS, with the introduction of a new race the minotaur Warrior would now be a better choice...for whatever reason, with a new class you may find that your group could work alot better now with a bard over a druid...whatever...

    SKYeXile
    TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
    Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.

  • MarkJacobsMarkJacobs CEO City State Entertainment Fairfax, VAPosts: 473Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by skyexile

     


    Originally posted by Smorak

    Originally posted by Xobdnas I am glad to hear they want to start small and build up like EVE and Mech Warrior. Start small, make it great, make it work, add later. The nice thing about clases and races is, they can always add more, and when they do it opens up replay value and adds interesting content for us to explore (especially since they are pushing for boon and bane choices). I would rather start with a healer and a warrior than to start with 30 classes, 28 of which are sub par, glitchy, and uneventful (I'm looking at you launch SWG). To say I am excited is an understatement.
    LOL there's no PVE.  What would be the point of exploring?  The object is to kill or you will be killed.  Roam around and you will die... supposedly.

     

    You're taking his use of the word "explore" too literally. What he means is that by adding a new class and race it can totally shift the dynmics of balance, and the explorationg would be the theory crafting or min maxing and testing out new builds. where as before your Norse Warrior may have been the best choice for your spec of 2Her Melee DPS, with the introduction of a new race the minotaur Warrior would now be a better choice...for whatever reason, with a new class you may find that your group could work alot better now with a bard over a druid...whatever...

    It also allows us the chance to add really different and new combinations, different skills, etc. even if they don't work out as well as we hoped. It's about a changing world whether it's the players changing it through their actions or even us changing it as we add new stuff to it. By starting smaller, we hopefully get all the major issues out during beta with a large beta group so we won't have too much balancing/nerfing to do at launch. We then can slowly test stuff out on the test server and roll it into the game on a reasonable schedule.

    Mark Jacobs
    CEO, City State Entertainment

  • skyexileskyexile MelbournePosts: 692Member


    Originally posted by Hokibukisa
    Originally posted by Galadourn I was wondering, how many classes would be considered "too few" for the people here? 
    I don't think he said fewer classes but races.

    But I would want at least 2 classes per archtype, then they could add hybrids later on.

    Oh and personally I would expect at least 3 races per realm to start out with. And honestly 3 is good. In Midgard for example, you could have started with Norse, of course, the iconic dwarf, and trolls to round them out. Hibernia has to have elves and celts, and the firbolg could round them out. Albion could have briton, avalonian, and .. something new, a non-human of some kind. Maybe the half-giant makes sense. Albion was a bit bland for me when I first started playing cause it was the land of a bunch of humans. They didn't do a good enough job of making avalonians feel different from humans.


    yea 3 could be good, if they give each race boons/banes, stats and whatever else that are good for afew different classes, i wouldn't want it to be a system where, well its a no brainer i go the human to be warrior, because they get all this cool shit and these boons and banes, the other races are geared towards casters and assasins. id hope that say if i did want to go a warrior, id have to be weighing up between say a human and highlander, because they both have good stuff i would want.

    SKYeXile
    TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
    Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.

  • KuldebarKuldebar Tacoma, WAPosts: 66Member
    Originally posted by MarkJacobs 

    It also allows us the chance to add really different and new combinations, different skills, etc. even if they don't work out as well as we hoped. It's about a changing world whether it's the players changing it through their actions or even us changing it as we add new stuff to it. By starting smaller, we hopefully get all the major issues out during beta with a large beta group so we won't have too much balancing/nerfing to do at launch. We then can slowly test stuff out on the test server and roll it into the game on a reasonable schedule.

     

    I think it also leaves some room for some player choice driven variance. Even though the game is Class/Role based there could still be a "window" of player specialization. This picture gives an idea of what I am talking about:

    image

    It was already mentioned that there would be some skill leveling and weapon profiency scaling as well as stat bonuses, so these things could allow for some variance of dynamic customization for aplayer character even when the Classes and Races are fixed there could still be some latitude for variety in a proscribed window.

    Those who tread with ill intent
    Beneath our sacred firmament,
    Whether of Hammer or of Tree,
    Albion's might shall strike at thee!

  • MarkJacobsMarkJacobs CEO City State Entertainment Fairfax, VAPosts: 473Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kuldebar
    Originally posted by MarkJacobs 

    It also allows us the chance to add really different and new combinations, different skills, etc. even if they don't work out as well as we hoped. It's about a changing world whether it's the players changing it through their actions or even us changing it as we add new stuff to it. By starting smaller, we hopefully get all the major issues out during beta with a large beta group so we won't have too much balancing/nerfing to do at launch. We then can slowly test stuff out on the test server and roll it into the game on a reasonable schedule.

     

    I think it also leaves some room for some player choice driven variance. Even though the game is Class/Role based there could still be a "window" of player specialization. This picture gives an idea of what I am talking about:

    image

    It was already mentioned that there would be some skill leveling and weapon profiency scaling as well as stat bonuses, so these things could allow for some variance of dynamic customization for aplayer character even when the Classes and Races are fixed there could still be some latitude for variety in a proscribed window.

    Yep. Choices. :)

    Even if we went the mirrored classes route, my decision to allow race/gender variations, stat leveling, banes/boons, etc. ends up with a lesser version of RPS. I'm just embracing the RPS mechanic right from the beginning and willing to kick it up a notch or two. :)

    Mark Jacobs
    CEO, City State Entertainment

  • SatariousSatarious Kansas City, MOPosts: 1,075Member
    Home run.  I hope a lot of folks read this.

  • SeitrSeitr Saint Cloud, FLPosts: 50Member
    This is the first principle I don't entirely agree with. I love the RPS class system, but releasing the game with limited classes/races I think is a mistake. I would rather see the game released later with a big variety like DAoC had. Creating and adding classes after the game has been released most of the time are seen as OPed for some reason. Maybe because they have new abilities that haven't been seen or maybe because the developers are trying to add new bells and whistles to make new classes more exciting? For whatever reason this seemed to be the case with daoc.....
  • Father_JackFather_Jack Portland, ORPosts: 81Member
    Originally posted by Seitr
    This is the first principle I don't entirely agree with. I love the RPS class system, but releasing the game with limited classes/races I think is a mistake. I would rather see the game released later with a big variety like DAoC had. Creating and adding classes after the game has been released most of the time are seen as OPed for some reason. Maybe because they have new abilities that haven't been seen or maybe because the developers are trying to add new bells and whistles to make new classes more exciting? For whatever reason this seemed to be the case with daoc.....

    I know what you mean. Usually the new classes seem bolted on to an already harmonious balanced team of classes. But if they plan from the begining how these post release classes will work, they would fit more harmoniously into the game.

     Plus I like to alt, so staggering the availibility of classes gives me an excuse to roll another character. Plus I personally would rather play a game with fewer clasess that was really balanced than one with lots of options that had broad class problems. I never minded in WAR beta when we only had access to limited classes I still found it fun. But again that is probably just me.

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