the more damage you deal.. the less CC and utility you have
thats where games like wow messed up. give all the cc to the rogues and mages and none to the lesser played classes.
DAoC worked well because the non popular classes had all the best abilities. how happy were you when you first grouped with an AUG healer and got celerity? remember how important paladin was with group End? how about when your mentalist buddy discovered the wonders of nearsight?
so to me the shield tanks having knockbacks, knock up, known downs, snares and stuns are ok with me
cloth caster dirtect damage , stealthers, and light tanks should have ZERO CC.
as far as interupts? I think we should go back to the days of
Spells do HUGE effects, but you have long cast time and getting hit ruins the spell. but where as in daoc if you got hit you 100% lost the spell, nd every other game has had a cast bar that only went down a little, I think it should be in the middle and have a cast bar but when you are hit it goes back to 25%, then 50% then 75% and then after that the spell wont be set back at all and repeat the process again for the next spell.
no insta cast spells. casters should have to go back to casting spells. not throwing them.
archers , i feel should go to where they were at in Warhammer. You can move while using special abilities, but they had a 1 -2 sec cast bar..
After initial RAs were introduced everything had counter(thats about 8 month into the game?). only classes that were kinda screwed were the melee hybrids who did not have determination which was key. But betwen realms it worked out fine I thought. AOE mezz and aoe interupts are proven way to have smaller number competitive, without them you gona have the usual spam fest.
Lol, you re still stuck on this crap. You have no idea what a faction game is about.
You think you know what a faction is about because you require a game maker to tell you, and they even state it on the TESO website, they believe you are too stupid to know who your enemey is so they MUST make each one look different, its in their own words!
I however can play a faction based game and not have my hand held by big daddy game maker, a game like Anarchy Online, Star Wars Galaxies, Age of Conan and countless others that had open world PvP, factions, faction switching and OMG MOMMY AN EMENY THATS THE SAME RACE AS ME WHATEVER WILL I DO HE LOOKS LIKE ME!
/cries river and runs to a game maker that will protect me from having to think and be aware, even let me CC them so I can AoE spam like im farming mobs in PvE.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Deto he's never played daoc, he's just butthurt that TESO isn't a star wars galaxies clone. Because MF and MJ once worked together, he's apparently decided on guilt by association, and continued his anti daoc rhetoric on the cu threads.
Apparently he was in a 400 man guild in daoc, and they all quit on the same day because "daoc was such a terrible game". Back then daoc servers only supported 1500 players, you would think we would have heard about it if practically an entire realm upped sticks overnight wouldn't you
also he's currently playing gw2, which I find hilarious as gw2 is basicly a super casual "my first daoc" with a few bits of coh and rift chucked in.
Kraiden That's a good point, giving cc to spike dps isn't a good idea, prefer primary cc to be tanks and / or low dps cc specialists. Encourages teamwork.
DAoC did a lot of things right, and from MJ's recent RPS thread I don't see that CU will be a ton different. DAoC had classes that specialized in CC. In most games today every class has at least 1 form of CC if not many more to follow. CU is going to have RPS classes. So expect to see some of the same stuff from DAoC. When you see that bard barreling down on your group at mach5 you know who has the CC. I liked how DAoC forced you to spec in to roles. You could CC, damage, buff, heal, or tank (depending on class.) However, you had to pick one role. You could try mixing 2 of the 3 trees but you couldn't veer off to far or you became useless. Pure classes were almost always preferred, with a few minor exceptions. If you specced CC you couldn't damage or heal with a darn. If you specced healing your buffing was behind. You couldn't be good at everything like some games today.
I also miss the caster mechanics. Casters were extremely dangerous. However to balance their insane damage there was total spell interruption. Any hit to a caster would completely interrept a spell (with the exception of 1 quickcast every 20 seconds.) Bolt casters did the highest single target damage but bolts could be blocked by shields. Todays kids don't want to bring along a shield user to intercept bolts or arrows. They want to be able to 1v1 every person. Team play made DAoC awesome.
the more damage you deal.. the less CC and utility you have
thats where games like wow messed up. give all the cc to the rogues and mages and none to the lesser played classes.
DAoC worked well because the non popular classes had all the best abilities. how happy were you when you first grouped with an AUG healer and got celerity? remember how important paladin was with group End? how about when your mentalist buddy discovered the wonders of nearsight?
so to me the shield tanks having knockbacks, knock up, known downs, snares and stuns are ok with me
cloth caster dirtect damage , stealthers, and light tanks should have ZERO CC.
as far as interupts? I think we should go back to the days of
Spells do HUGE effects, but you have long cast time and getting hit ruins the spell. but where as in daoc if you got hit you 100% lost the spell, nd every other game has had a cast bar that only went down a little, I think it should be in the middle and have a cast bar but when you are hit it goes back to 25%, then 50% then 75% and then after that the spell wont be set back at all and repeat the process again for the next spell.
no insta cast spells. casters should have to go back to casting spells. not throwing them.
archers , i feel should go to where they were at in Warhammer. You can move while using special abilities, but they had a 1 -2 sec cast bar..
i agree mostly with you but you forget that DAOC had some of the worst classes for c/c out there. You guys must of forgot a infiltrator having a 9 second stun called dragonfang that was pretty much a one hit kill to any class out there once they hit that evade and got it off. Also minstrels used stealth and had a single target mez and 6 second stun. Stealthers in DAOC pretty much were the best dps classes out there if they hit you from stealth. I had many one on ones on my reaver with good shadowblades and nightshades that would own my ass. Some of the worst c/c started in dark age of camelot it wasnt wow that did it. Hell do you remember ignore pain on a nightshade? 50% damage reduction for 30 seconds?
I think people are jaded here not saying you or anyone in particular , just saying in general . They seem to forget all the bad and terrible things with DAOC and blame wow and other games for doing it instead. Hell I remember I could win every single fight on my reaver with thorn weed field and unquinchable thirst for souls with a pocket cleric with divine protection. I used to tower dive 8 man groups and get a free 8 kills every 5-10 minutes for realm points. DAOC did have some of the worst cc out there 9 second stuns are stupid in any game spam fest or not . Taking a toon out of the game for 9 seconds and not allowing them to do anything except with determination every 3 minutes is poor gaming design and shortfalls for making classes more balanced.
CCs were put in PvP to get carebears to take part in it and was one of several ideas that dumbed down PvPing to PvE levels. The developers are still saying it today as can been seen on the TESO website, they believe thier players to be so dumb that they need races to be in closed off factions so they will know what the enemy looks like.
Tells a lot when a game maker admits publicly that their target audience are not to bright when it comes to PvP.
Well ... This is more offtopic. Just sounds like you don't get something that you wanted for TESO.
I think they should take 1 thing from WAR. make shield carrying tanks the main crowd controllers and copy some of them pvp tanking abilities like hold the line.
This is one thing war did very well, tanks in pvp, probably better than any other mmo (although weirdly eq2 does tanks good in pvp too)
Actually make it 3 things, I really liked the morale bar and the tok too.
Originally posted by ShakyMo Yes TESO is lacking in wookies and lightsabers, everyone associated with daoc ever must pay.
(except them guys that made gw2)
Try harder, include something from a second game mentioned so it looks like you are trying to do more than avoid actually refuting something directly.
Not that I expect someone that has ground to stand on to actually be able to do that.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Originally posted by bcbully CC is part of any good pvp system, and it should be meaningful. If you don't like CC you like spamfest. There is no in between.
There is in-between, you don't need "CC" to have good meaningful combat that has depth and doesn't reward "spamming" crap.
The combat system itself determines how friendly or unfriendly things are when it comes to "spamming." Having good defensive abilities open to players to block, dodge attacks, etc can drastically change how spammable combat is.
The best combat systems are those that reward good strategic play and don't reward people that just spam attacks over and over and over without a thought of defense.
Originally posted by bcbully CC is part of any good pvp system, and it should be meaningful. If you don't like CC you like spamfest. There is no in between.
There is in-between, you don't need "CC" to have good meaningful combat that has depth and doesn't reward "spamming" crap.
The combat system itself determines how friendly or unfriendly things are when it comes to "spamming." Having good defensive abilities open to players to block, dodge attacks, etc can drastically change how spammable combat is.
The best combat systems are those that reward good strategic play and don't reward people that just spam attacks over and over and over without a thought of defense.
Exactly, which is why CC is not even needed. Its more a handicap, it masks a weak combat system and is designed to allow carebear PvE'ers a more PvE feel to PvP so they take part in it.
See a group of mobs, CC them and spam the AoEs. No strategy to it.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Originally posted by ShakyMo Deto he's never played daoc, he's just butthurt that TESO isn't a star wars galaxies clone. Because MF and MJ once worked together, he's apparently decided on guilt by association, and continued his anti daoc rhetoric on the cu threads.
Apparently he was in a 400 man guild in daoc, and they all quit on the same day because "daoc was such a terrible game". Back then daoc servers only supported 1500 players, you would think we would have heard about it if practically an entire realm upped sticks overnight wouldn't you
also he's currently playing gw2, which I find hilarious as gw2 is basicly a super casual "my first daoc" with a few bits of coh and rift chucked in.
I see that, you can tell he hasn t played it, he has no idea at all what he s talking about. I like when he responds though, it s entertainment at least.
Originally posted by bcbully CC is part of any good pvp system, and it should be meaningful. If you don't like CC you like spamfest. There is no in between.
There is in-between, you don't need "CC" to have good meaningful combat that has depth and doesn't reward "spamming" crap.
The combat system itself determines how friendly or unfriendly things are when it comes to "spamming." Having good defensive abilities open to players to block, dodge attacks, etc can drastically change how spammable combat is.
The best combat systems are those that reward good strategic play and don't reward people that just spam attacks over and over and over without a thought of defense.
Exactly, which is why CC is not even needed. Its more a handicap, it masks a weak combat system and is designed to allow carebear PvE'ers a more PvE feel to PvP so they take part in it.
See a group of mobs, CC them and spam the AoEs. No strategy to it.
You absolutely don't get what CC is. Its not just unbreakable stun.
CC like mezzmerize or root is breakable. If you spam AoE skills in case of mezz or root people will be free of this condition. This is the part were you have to see and think.
You were never able to "spam" CC because it had a huge immunity timer for about one minute.
Originally posted by bcbully CC is part of any good pvp system, and it should be meaningful. If you don't like CC you like spamfest. There is no in between.
There is in-between, you don't need "CC" to have good meaningful combat that has depth and doesn't reward "spamming" crap.
The combat system itself determines how friendly or unfriendly things are when it comes to "spamming." Having good defensive abilities open to players to block, dodge attacks, etc can drastically change how spammable combat is.
The best combat systems are those that reward good strategic play and don't reward people that just spam attacks over and over and over without a thought of defense.
Exactly, which is why CC is not even needed. Its more a handicap, it masks a weak combat system and is designed to allow carebear PvE'ers a more PvE feel to PvP so they take part in it.
See a group of mobs, CC them and spam the AoEs. No strategy to it.
You absolutely don't get what CC is. Its not just unbreakable stun.
CC like mezzmerize or root is breakable. If you spam AoE skills in case of mezz or root people will be free of this condition. This is the part were you have to see and think.
You were never able to "spam" CC because it had a huge immunity timer for about one minute.
You aboslutely don't get what CC is. Its NOT just unbreakable stun.
Breakable root is still CC. You hit with a mezz to increas distance and AOE, during the cooldown of the breakable you AOE DoTs while your Warlocks drop bubbles keeping you all alive or then hit with an unbreakable stun and continue to AoE. Rince, Repeat...go youtube any of the MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF PvP videos still up that show groups of 4 or 8 taking out DOZENS with the SAME TACTICS.
You guys sound like the people posting on Elitists Jerks website screaming at the videos showing Bunker Elementalists PvPing that it just plain isnt possible...just more proof, strategy is limited to the knowledge of the individual claiming it.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Originally posted by ShakyMo I think they should take 1 thing from WAR. make shield carrying tanks the main crowd controllers and copy some of them pvp tanking abilities like hold the line.
This is one thing war did very well, tanks in pvp, probably better than any other mmo (although weirdly eq2 does tanks good in pvp too)
Actually make it 3 things, I really liked the morale bar and the tok too.
This also I support ..... Shield Tanks with collison detection was awesome and guard. Also EQ2 tanks did have taunt which made you break target and target them in pvp that was awesome and made tanks viable with their lower damage. I think if they do cc it needs to be broken down into 4 groups with immunity timers for each one . MEZ , ROOT, STUN, SNARE.....if you limit cc to one of those four catagories than you can easily make it powerful but also reasonable. No one likes to lose control of their characters over and over , it takes the fun out of fighting in pvp. I think WAR did a good job with cc myself and would like to see similiar but lower snare durations than war please heh
Originally posted by bcbully CC is part of any good pvp system, and it should be meaningful. If you don't like CC you like spamfest. There is no in between.
There is in-between, you don't need "CC" to have good meaningful combat that has depth and doesn't reward "spamming" crap.
The combat system itself determines how friendly or unfriendly things are when it comes to "spamming." Having good defensive abilities open to players to block, dodge attacks, etc can drastically change how spammable combat is.
The best combat systems are those that reward good strategic play and don't reward people that just spam attacks over and over and over without a thought of defense.
Exactly, which is why CC is not even needed. Its more a handicap, it masks a weak combat system and is designed to allow carebear PvE'ers a more PvE feel to PvP so they take part in it.
See a group of mobs, CC them and spam the AoEs. No strategy to it.
You absolutely don't get what CC is. Its not just unbreakable stun.
CC like mezzmerize or root is breakable. If you spam AoE skills in case of mezz or root people will be free of this condition. This is the part were you have to see and think.
You were never able to "spam" CC because it had a huge immunity timer for about one minute.
You aboslutely don't get what CC is. Its NOT just unbreakable stun.
Breakable root is still CC. You hit with a mezz to increas distance and AOE, during the cooldown of the breakable you AOE DoTs while your Warlocks drop bubbles keeping you all alive or then hit with an unbreakable stun and continue to AoE. Rince, Repeat...go youtube any of the MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF PvP videos still up that show groups of 4 or 8 taking out DOZENS with the SAME TACTICS.
You guys sound like the people posting on Elitists Jerks website screaming at the videos showing Bunker Elementalists PvPing that it just plain isnt possible...just more proof, strategy is limited to the knowledge of the individual claiming it.
You sound like you didn't play DAoC. One class didn't have all CC-skills at once like in World of Warcraft. Usually an AoE Dot shouldn't be that strong that it kills you in 9 second stun. In a coordinated group you would shout out loud: "Damage on me! Please heal me!" and healers would recognize it. There are even counterabilities like passive-abilities which reduce the CC-timer on your character or an active ability which cures all CC-conditions on you. CC in a game makes you aware of it. It is consequent just like death penalty is. You have to think about your steps in the world.
Once you mention World of Warcraft aspects now you speak of GuildWars 2's Elementalist class ... Decide. Bunkers don't even have anything to do with CC. I mean ... Do you just want to talk about CC in general or are you looking forward to support Camelot Unchained?
Sigh ... At least you sound like you played GuildWars 2. In GuildWars 2 "Immobilze" or "Stun" is not breakable at all. There is not even an immunity timer for it. If you look at the zerg people just buttonmash every skill they have ... 1 to 5, weaponswitch, 1-5 and so on. Using breakable CC in such a mass of players is likely useless at all because it got always broken.
Breakable CC guarantees tactics and coordination. Furthermore it is just a consequent and challanging aspect of a game - which Mark Jacobs obviously supports. Things in Camelot Unchained will get hardcore - The playercrowd expects the same of skills and the fightsystem. Furthermore CC still guarantees fighting as an underdog agains a bigger mass. Camelot Unchained should - and I guess it will - support fullgroup fights and zerg battles. Its not just about repeating because many groups fight with a different setup and with different roles in their group. You even have to think about if it even makes sense to CC a tank, a healer or a mage because there WOULD be an immunity timer.
Man ... Are such things already lost in recent mmorpgs? You obviously experienced that modern use of CC like in MOBA games, WoW or GuildWars 2 where you don't have a huge casttime or you are not aware of being interrupted while casting CC. Longduration CC just works with interruptable casttime. Once my sorcerer took an arrow I wouldn't be able to cast for the next 3 seconds ... Meanwhile many dangerous things could happen to my group.
I like when hard cc breaks on damage, it really counters the let's all aoe like mad brigade.
Also if any of you guys played perpetuum what did you think to the interference mechanic, I think that tuned to magic could be a good counter to zergs.
You aboslutely don't get what CC is. Its NOT just unbreakable stun.
Breakable root is still CC. You hit with a mezz to increas distance and AOE, during the cooldown of the breakable you AOE DoTs while your Warlocks drop bubbles keeping you all alive or then hit with an unbreakable stun and continue to AoE. Rince, Repeat...go youtube any of the MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF PvP videos still up that show groups of 4 or 8 taking out DOZENS with the SAME TACTICS.
You guys sound like the people posting on Elitists Jerks website screaming at the videos showing Bunker Elementalists PvPing that it just plain isnt possible...just more proof, strategy is limited to the knowledge of the individual claiming it.
You sound like you didn't play DAoC. One class didn't have all CC-skills at once like in World of Warcraft.
You sound like you cant defend DaoC seeing as how you cant seem to read. Highlighted for laughs.
Rage on as you pretend that DaoC RvR was perfect and deny reality.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
You aboslutely don't get what CC is. Its NOT just unbreakable stun.
Breakable root is still CC. You hit with a mezz to increas distance and AOE, during the cooldown of the breakable you AOE DoTs while your Warlocks drop bubbles keeping you all alive or then hit with an unbreakable stun and continue to AoE. Rince, Repeat...go youtube any of the MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF PvP videos still up that show groups of 4 or 8 taking out DOZENS with the SAME TACTICS.
You guys sound like the people posting on Elitists Jerks website screaming at the videos showing Bunker Elementalists PvPing that it just plain isnt possible...just more proof, strategy is limited to the knowledge of the individual claiming it.
You sound like you didn't play DAoC. One class didn't have all CC-skills at once like in World of Warcraft.
You sound like you cant defend DaoC seeing as how you cant seem to read. Highlighted for laughs.
Rage on as you pretend that DaoC RvR was perfect and deny reality.
So ... You're just able to cut a whole block-of-text post to 3 short sentences? Jesus, you're great!
Do you REALLY speak about recent times/post-Catacombs in DAoC? I didn't realize that to be honest because ... even speaking about useless DoTs or WARLOCKS ...
FYI, I speak of pre-ToA times. Thus I can happily ignore some "OMG LOOK AT THE WARLOCK" sentences. I did never care about catacomb features because it destroyed DAoC's RvR even more. Death penalty, interrupt timer and even immunity timers got already reduced/nerved at this time.
DAoC's RvR was perfect pre-ToA! I don't see a way to rage when you're talking about Warlocks and stuff.
I think people are jaded here not saying you or anyone in particular , just saying in general . They seem to forget all the bad and terrible things with DAOC and blame wow and other games for doing it instead. Hell I remember I could win every single fight on my reaver with thorn weed field and unquinchable thirst for souls with a pocket cleric with divine protection. I used to tower dive 8 man groups and get a free 8 kills every 5-10 minutes for realm points. DAOC did have some of the worst cc out there 9 second stuns are stupid in any game spam fest or not . Taking a toon out of the game for 9 seconds and not allowing them to do anything except with determination every 3 minutes is poor gaming design and shortfalls for making classes more balanced.
Well, I did not forget about things like Dragonfang, and annaihalate, I know there were things in daoc at release that made zero sense. it was not the perfect game, which is why I was suggesting the more offense you have the less cc and utility you have. I said about 200 words in that stealthers should have zero CC.
Camelot ended up bein a pretty balanced game, if we took that beautiful new frontires map and had that be the FIRST map we all used, there wouldnt have been so much push back and more people would have stayed. this was still early in mmos so nobody had ever done a complete overhaul of the sandbox before. DAoC lost the larger load of its customer base because it made too many GOOD changes all at one time. when have you ever heard that complaint out of a company in the past 2 decades? because I havent. you changed the keep warfare, the map, and nerfed a few overplayed classes all in one patch and thus caused the nerfed people to quit and many people just couldnt adjust to the change of the new content and became irritated and left. if they had given us the new keeps in the old sandbox for a few months and then come out with the new sandbox.... thus giving people time to adjust. less subscritions would have been lost.
the way I saw it , when asked why they left daoc the reasons I got were "new frontieres drove me away" "I didnt want to pve to get my RvR gear (trials of atlantis) "i hated raiding" "gear became unbalanced"..... but these same people fled to WoW which the above was its sellingpoint...
ive talked with a few people about this over the years and they agree
as for all the mark jacobs bashing...JAWS was a great movie and groundbreaking for the amount spent on it, but "1941" the movie was horrible and a total flop for all the hype. Indiana jones and the last crusade was great but followed up by HOOK and you had to wonder did this guy even know what he was doing. Then next year comes back with the greatest movie of all time in Schindlers list
I remember a young coach with the NY giants was called brilliant and the mind behind the 2nd best defense of all time. he was then given a job in Cleveland where he was a total flop and absolute failure and people questioned if he even knew what he was doing. he then got a job with the new england patriots...
Comments
my basic philosophies........
the more damage you deal.. the less CC and utility you have
thats where games like wow messed up. give all the cc to the rogues and mages and none to the lesser played classes.
DAoC worked well because the non popular classes had all the best abilities. how happy were you when you first grouped with an AUG healer and got celerity? remember how important paladin was with group End? how about when your mentalist buddy discovered the wonders of nearsight?
so to me the shield tanks having knockbacks, knock up, known downs, snares and stuns are ok with me
cloth caster dirtect damage , stealthers, and light tanks should have ZERO CC.
as far as interupts? I think we should go back to the days of
Spells do HUGE effects, but you have long cast time and getting hit ruins the spell. but where as in daoc if you got hit you 100% lost the spell, nd every other game has had a cast bar that only went down a little, I think it should be in the middle and have a cast bar but when you are hit it goes back to 25%, then 50% then 75% and then after that the spell wont be set back at all and repeat the process again for the next spell.
no insta cast spells. casters should have to go back to casting spells. not throwing them.
archers , i feel should go to where they were at in Warhammer. You can move while using special abilities, but they had a 1 -2 sec cast bar..
After initial RAs were introduced everything had counter(thats about 8 month into the game?). only classes that were kinda screwed were the melee hybrids who did not have determination which was key. But betwen realms it worked out fine I thought. AOE mezz and aoe interupts are proven way to have smaller number competitive, without them you gona have the usual spam fest.
You think you know what a faction is about because you require a game maker to tell you, and they even state it on the TESO website, they believe you are too stupid to know who your enemey is so they MUST make each one look different, its in their own words!
I however can play a faction based game and not have my hand held by big daddy game maker, a game like Anarchy Online, Star Wars Galaxies, Age of Conan and countless others that had open world PvP, factions, faction switching and OMG MOMMY AN EMENY THATS THE SAME RACE AS ME WHATEVER WILL I DO HE LOOKS LIKE ME!
/cries river and runs to a game maker that will protect me from having to think and be aware, even let me CC them so I can AoE spam like im farming mobs in PvE.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Apparently he was in a 400 man guild in daoc, and they all quit on the same day because "daoc was such a terrible game". Back then daoc servers only supported 1500 players, you would think we would have heard about it if practically an entire realm upped sticks overnight wouldn't you
also he's currently playing gw2, which I find hilarious as gw2 is basicly a super casual "my first daoc" with a few bits of coh and rift chucked in.
That's a good point, giving cc to spike dps isn't a good idea, prefer primary cc to be tanks and / or low dps cc specialists. Encourages teamwork.
But Aoc has BAD pvp.
DAoC did a lot of things right, and from MJ's recent RPS thread I don't see that CU will be a ton different. DAoC had classes that specialized in CC. In most games today every class has at least 1 form of CC if not many more to follow. CU is going to have RPS classes. So expect to see some of the same stuff from DAoC. When you see that bard barreling down on your group at mach5 you know who has the CC. I liked how DAoC forced you to spec in to roles. You could CC, damage, buff, heal, or tank (depending on class.) However, you had to pick one role. You could try mixing 2 of the 3 trees but you couldn't veer off to far or you became useless. Pure classes were almost always preferred, with a few minor exceptions. If you specced CC you couldn't damage or heal with a darn. If you specced healing your buffing was behind. You couldn't be good at everything like some games today.
I also miss the caster mechanics. Casters were extremely dangerous. However to balance their insane damage there was total spell interruption. Any hit to a caster would completely interrept a spell (with the exception of 1 quickcast every 20 seconds.) Bolt casters did the highest single target damage but bolts could be blocked by shields. Todays kids don't want to bring along a shield user to intercept bolts or arrows. They want to be able to 1v1 every person. Team play made DAoC awesome.
i agree mostly with you but you forget that DAOC had some of the worst classes for c/c out there. You guys must of forgot a infiltrator having a 9 second stun called dragonfang that was pretty much a one hit kill to any class out there once they hit that evade and got it off. Also minstrels used stealth and had a single target mez and 6 second stun. Stealthers in DAOC pretty much were the best dps classes out there if they hit you from stealth. I had many one on ones on my reaver with good shadowblades and nightshades that would own my ass. Some of the worst c/c started in dark age of camelot it wasnt wow that did it. Hell do you remember ignore pain on a nightshade? 50% damage reduction for 30 seconds?
I think people are jaded here not saying you or anyone in particular , just saying in general . They seem to forget all the bad and terrible things with DAOC and blame wow and other games for doing it instead. Hell I remember I could win every single fight on my reaver with thorn weed field and unquinchable thirst for souls with a pocket cleric with divine protection. I used to tower dive 8 man groups and get a free 8 kills every 5-10 minutes for realm points. DAOC did have some of the worst cc out there 9 second stuns are stupid in any game spam fest or not . Taking a toon out of the game for 9 seconds and not allowing them to do anything except with determination every 3 minutes is poor gaming design and shortfalls for making classes more balanced.
Well ... This is more offtopic. Just sounds like you don't get something that you wanted for TESO.
(except them guys that made gw2)
This is one thing war did very well, tanks in pvp, probably better than any other mmo (although weirdly eq2 does tanks good in pvp too)
Actually make it 3 things, I really liked the morale bar and the tok too.
Try harder, include something from a second game mentioned so it looks like you are trying to do more than avoid actually refuting something directly.
Not that I expect someone that has ground to stand on to actually be able to do that.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
There is in-between, you don't need "CC" to have good meaningful combat that has depth and doesn't reward "spamming" crap.
The combat system itself determines how friendly or unfriendly things are when it comes to "spamming." Having good defensive abilities open to players to block, dodge attacks, etc can drastically change how spammable combat is.
The best combat systems are those that reward good strategic play and don't reward people that just spam attacks over and over and over without a thought of defense.
Exactly, which is why CC is not even needed. Its more a handicap, it masks a weak combat system and is designed to allow carebear PvE'ers a more PvE feel to PvP so they take part in it.
See a group of mobs, CC them and spam the AoEs. No strategy to it.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
I see that, you can tell he hasn t played it, he has no idea at all what he s talking about. I like when he responds though, it s entertainment at least.
You absolutely don't get what CC is. Its not just unbreakable stun.
CC like mezzmerize or root is breakable. If you spam AoE skills in case of mezz or root people will be free of this condition. This is the part were you have to see and think.
You were never able to "spam" CC because it had a huge immunity timer for about one minute.
You aboslutely don't get what CC is. Its NOT just unbreakable stun.
Breakable root is still CC. You hit with a mezz to increas distance and AOE, during the cooldown of the breakable you AOE DoTs while your Warlocks drop bubbles keeping you all alive or then hit with an unbreakable stun and continue to AoE. Rince, Repeat...go youtube any of the MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF PvP videos still up that show groups of 4 or 8 taking out DOZENS with the SAME TACTICS.
You guys sound like the people posting on Elitists Jerks website screaming at the videos showing Bunker Elementalists PvPing that it just plain isnt possible...just more proof, strategy is limited to the knowledge of the individual claiming it.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
You seem to hate CC a lot, you been rolling around without CC breakers?
SKYeXile
TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.
This also I support ..... Shield Tanks with collison detection was awesome and guard. Also EQ2 tanks did have taunt which made you break target and target them in pvp that was awesome and made tanks viable with their lower damage. I think if they do cc it needs to be broken down into 4 groups with immunity timers for each one . MEZ , ROOT, STUN, SNARE.....if you limit cc to one of those four catagories than you can easily make it powerful but also reasonable. No one likes to lose control of their characters over and over , it takes the fun out of fighting in pvp. I think WAR did a good job with cc myself and would like to see similiar but lower snare durations than war please heh
You sound like you didn't play DAoC. One class didn't have all CC-skills at once like in World of Warcraft. Usually an AoE Dot shouldn't be that strong that it kills you in 9 second stun. In a coordinated group you would shout out loud: "Damage on me! Please heal me!" and healers would recognize it. There are even counterabilities like passive-abilities which reduce the CC-timer on your character or an active ability which cures all CC-conditions on you. CC in a game makes you aware of it. It is consequent just like death penalty is. You have to think about your steps in the world.
Once you mention World of Warcraft aspects now you speak of GuildWars 2's Elementalist class ... Decide. Bunkers don't even have anything to do with CC. I mean ... Do you just want to talk about CC in general or are you looking forward to support Camelot Unchained?
Sigh ... At least you sound like you played GuildWars 2. In GuildWars 2 "Immobilze" or "Stun" is not breakable at all. There is not even an immunity timer for it. If you look at the zerg people just buttonmash every skill they have ... 1 to 5, weaponswitch, 1-5 and so on. Using breakable CC in such a mass of players is likely useless at all because it got always broken.
Breakable CC guarantees tactics and coordination. Furthermore it is just a consequent and challanging aspect of a game - which Mark Jacobs obviously supports. Things in Camelot Unchained will get hardcore - The playercrowd expects the same of skills and the fightsystem. Furthermore CC still guarantees fighting as an underdog agains a bigger mass. Camelot Unchained should - and I guess it will - support fullgroup fights and zerg battles.
Its not just about repeating because many groups fight with a different setup and with different roles in their group. You even have to think about if it even makes sense to CC a tank, a healer or a mage because there WOULD be an immunity timer.
Man ... Are such things already lost in recent mmorpgs? You obviously experienced that modern use of CC like in MOBA games, WoW or GuildWars 2 where you don't have a huge casttime or you are not aware of being interrupted while casting CC. Longduration CC just works with interruptable casttime. Once my sorcerer took an arrow I wouldn't be able to cast for the next 3 seconds ... Meanwhile many dangerous things could happen to my group.
We have to have barbs
Also if any of you guys played perpetuum what did you think to the interference mechanic, I think that tuned to magic could be a good counter to zergs.
You sound like you cant defend DaoC seeing as how you cant seem to read. Highlighted for laughs.
Rage on as you pretend that DaoC RvR was perfect and deny reality.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
So ... You're just able to cut a whole block-of-text post to 3 short sentences? Jesus, you're great!
Do you REALLY speak about recent times/post-Catacombs in DAoC?
I didn't realize that to be honest because ... even speaking about useless DoTs or WARLOCKS ...
FYI, I speak of pre-ToA times. Thus I can happily ignore some "OMG LOOK AT THE WARLOCK" sentences. I did never care about catacomb features because it destroyed DAoC's RvR even more. Death penalty, interrupt timer and even immunity timers got already reduced/nerved at this time.
DAoC's RvR was perfect pre-ToA! I don't see a way to rage when you're talking about Warlocks and stuff.
Well, I did not forget about things like Dragonfang, and annaihalate, I know there were things in daoc at release that made zero sense. it was not the perfect game, which is why I was suggesting the more offense you have the less cc and utility you have. I said about 200 words in that stealthers should have zero CC.
Camelot ended up bein a pretty balanced game, if we took that beautiful new frontires map and had that be the FIRST map we all used, there wouldnt have been so much push back and more people would have stayed. this was still early in mmos so nobody had ever done a complete overhaul of the sandbox before. DAoC lost the larger load of its customer base because it made too many GOOD changes all at one time. when have you ever heard that complaint out of a company in the past 2 decades? because I havent. you changed the keep warfare, the map, and nerfed a few overplayed classes all in one patch and thus caused the nerfed people to quit and many people just couldnt adjust to the change of the new content and became irritated and left. if they had given us the new keeps in the old sandbox for a few months and then come out with the new sandbox.... thus giving people time to adjust. less subscritions would have been lost.
the way I saw it , when asked why they left daoc the reasons I got were "new frontieres drove me away" "I didnt want to pve to get my RvR gear (trials of atlantis) "i hated raiding" "gear became unbalanced"..... but these same people fled to WoW which the above was its sellingpoint...
ive talked with a few people about this over the years and they agree
as for all the mark jacobs bashing...JAWS was a great movie and groundbreaking for the amount spent on it, but "1941" the movie was horrible and a total flop for all the hype. Indiana jones and the last crusade was great but followed up by HOOK and you had to wonder did this guy even know what he was doing. Then next year comes back with the greatest movie of all time in Schindlers list
I remember a young coach with the NY giants was called brilliant and the mind behind the 2nd best defense of all time. he was then given a job in Cleveland where he was a total flop and absolute failure and people questioned if he even knew what he was doing. he then got a job with the new england patriots...