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Camelot Unchained: Be Willing to Take Risks

SBFordSBFord Associate Editor - News ManagerThe Land of AZPosts: 16,571MMORPG.COM Staff Uncommon

A new developer blog has cropped up on the Camelot Unchained site. The title pretty much says it all: Foundational Principle #1 – Be willing to take risks, even if fortune doesn’t always favor the bold. It's a short, but informational, read.

To say this game’s design will be fraught with risks is an understatement. I know it would be very easy just to go out and use buzzwords like “sandbox” lots and lots in describing this game to attract players and investors. I could also go out and talk about how this game “Will revolutionize PvE!” and attract another group of players and investors (that whole mass market thing) but yet I choose to make an RvR-focused game that even if successful has no chance of threatening Dark Age of Camelot’s peak subs (250k), let alone something much larger like EQ1. What I want to do is take chances with this game that most, if not all, publishers wouldn’t want to take with it and that’s exactly what we are going to do.

Check it out on the Camelot Unchained site.

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Associate Editor: MMORPG.com
Follow me on Twitter: @MMORPGMom

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Comments

  • MMOGamer71MMOGamer71 Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 1,930Member Common
    Great read from all the posts, I think they get it.
  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,187Member Uncommon

    "I know it would be very easy just to go out and use buzzwords like “sandbox” lots and lots in describing this game to attract players and investors."

    That's exactly what he's done.  He's thrown out sandbox, rvr, made a few slights at themepark to generate a real frothy frenzy, and basically pandered to a vocal crowd of perpetual malcontents.

    He keeps talking how his game wll be niche.  I'm curious how he plans on havinig 60K players pay for it (his number not mine).  What does it take to make a game at minimum, $10M, $20M, $30M?  If he gets $5M from his kickstarter, which 60K people could fund reasonably (at an average of $83.34 per person) that leaves another $15 - 25M.  He needs to recoup $250 - $417 per person just to break even, which doesn't include operating expenses, overhead, and continued development.

    He keeps talking talking no pve, only rvr, but what does that really mean?  A core piece to rvr is competition for resources, including mob drops.  I guess he could just have scattered crafting nodes and use players as loot droppers, but he hasn't detailed anything.

    He mentions tiered subscriptions, which is the very definition of pay to win.

    People are sucking this up with little thought to the changes he brought to daoc and war.  This is going to be an interesting and fun one to watch.  If you think the TOR and GW2 hype fallout was something, just wait and watch this.

  • spawn12345spawn12345 MalmöPosts: 137Member Uncommon
    yeah good luck with that
  • HrothaHrotha -Posts: 821Member

    Not one series in the past did not make a successful revamp. And now bringing this concept over to MMOs? Hell developers should know by now that people stay away from MMOs which they have cancelled once. It is impossible to bring longevity in a product that is already a revamp of an original.

    Thats like a warmed up drink: Okay memory but time to let go and here you're getting it served again, this time with a bitter aftertaste.

    Just bring out a new brand, a complete new title with new ideas. Why the fear???

    image

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Torv. Just outdoor pvp, crafting and housing. By no pve I take that to mean no quests, no dungeons, no mobs, except maybe guards.
  • CaldrinCaldrin CwmbranPosts: 4,533Member Uncommon

    @ Torvaldr

     

    No it does not take 30 million to make a Niche MMO LOL... hell not even a AAA themepark MMO.

    Just because big AAA publishers spend this kind of cash on flops like SWTOR does not mean that every company now has to spend 30m to make an MMO.

    A group of people who reallly want to make an MMO and could put the time into it could make one for next to nothing.

    There are so many engines out there that you can use for next to nothing, free graphics software, free sound editing software, well free everything really thats close to if not as good as 3dmax, photoshop and so on...

    So if he did have $5 million to put into this MMO then they could make it awesome.. as he said he is not aiming to get millions of people to play this game, a lot of people wont even like the idea of the game.

    Also to the rvr only issue, why do you think there cant be competition between players.. why do you need mob drops if you could have player drops and so on.. also why cant players fight over resources.. PVE does not need to come into it really.

    So tiered subs are p2w why would you say then when you have no idea what the different tiers could do..

     

    The guy is being pretty honest about everything.. The game will not be to everyones taste and he is happy with that.. this is also somthing i think other devs should take a note of.. YOU CAN NOT PLEASE EVERYONE..

     

     

     
  • CaldrinCaldrin CwmbranPosts: 4,533Member Uncommon
    removed
  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,899Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by 4bsolute

    Not one series in the past did not make a successful revamp. And now bringing this concept over to MMOs? Hell developers should know by now that people stay away from MMOs which they have cancelled once. It is impossible to bring longevity in a product that is already a revamp of an original.

    Thats like a warmed up drink: Okay memory but time to let go and here you're getting it served again, this time with a bitter aftertaste.

    Just bring out a new brand, a complete new title with new ideas. Why the fear???

    While it may be set in camelot this is a new title, this isn't a revamp of DAOC.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • moroelmoroel triavnaPosts: 11Member
    I guess whatever MJ says there will always be people who will criticize his ideas.Personally, I've always respected him a lot, despite problems in his games.I am waiting with great interest his project, without going into unnecessary hype.
  • nationalcitynationalcity Decatur, MIPosts: 330Member Uncommon

    It's not gonna matter the no PVE at all is just ridiculous. And it's gonna be a huge turnoff to alot of folks, I mean really people are gonna non-stop RVR all day everyday with nothing else to do...... mhmmm sureeeeee.........

     

    I'm really happy for the people who actually like this but I mean I just can't wrap my head around why they would pull such a stupid move...........

     
     
     
     
     
  • NibsNibs .Posts: 216Member Uncommon
    DAoC cost 2.5M to make.
  • keitholikeitholi biddeford, MEPosts: 138Member
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    "I know it would be very easy just to go out and use buzzwords like “sandbox” lots and lots in describing this game to attract players and investors."

    That's exactly what he's done.  He's thrown out sandbox, rvr, made a few slights at themepark to generate a real frothy frenzy, and basically pandered to a vocal crowd of perpetual malcontents.

    He keeps talking how his game wll be niche.  I'm curious how he plans on havinig 60K players pay for it (his number not mine).  What does it take to make a game at minimum, $10M, $20M, $30M?  If he gets $5M from his kickstarter, which 60K people could fund reasonably (at an average of $83.34 per person) that leaves another $15 - 25M.  He needs to recoup $250 - $417 per person just to break even, which doesn't include operating expenses, overhead, and continued development.

    He keeps talking talking no pve, only rvr, but what does that really mean?  A core piece to rvr is competition for resources, including mob drops.  I guess he could just have scattered crafting nodes and use players as loot droppers, but he hasn't detailed anything.

    He mentions tiered subscriptions, which is the very definition of pay to win.

    People are sucking this up with little thought to the changes he brought to daoc and war.  This is going to be an interesting and fun one to watch.  If you think the TOR and GW2 hype fallout was something, just wait and watch this.

    DAoC cost $2.5 million to make. While that was a long time ago, and couldnt be done today (most likely) for that cost, it does not take 10's of millions to put them out. Unless you want to drop money on advertising campaigns and a hundred programmers.

  • VyllynVyllyn Pasadena, CAPosts: 10Member

    reading this makes me very happy there is a company out there trying to innovate the MMO gaming space FINALY. like he said most if not all companies try and play it safe and just copy each other (Mostly WOW) but look at the way the market has been. Flop after flop and only now are we starting to here and see some companies start to move in the direction believe the industry needs to move to be successful.

  • MueslinatorMueslinator AugsburgPosts: 78Member

    I don't know Mark Jacobs, so no ill will here. Literally all I know about CU comes from their dev blogs.

    So far most of the information given is rather insubstantial, but it sounds interesting. WAR was the only PVP I ever liked.

    And I've made good experiences with developers who said "we go indie and do what we want". Namely, GGG.

     

    Certainly a title to watch for me. And I admit I am a bit taken in by the line of "If we want day/nightcycles and limited fast travel, we'll put it in".

    I'm a sucker for both, so, yeah, colour me intrigued.

     
  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Daoc might have cost 2.5 mil

    But...

    You need to at least double that, for modern wages for a start.

    Then assuming they are going to be using more modern graphics, thats going to double your man hours too, as more detailed assets take longer for artists to create, and more fancy processing effects while maintaining large group performance means your engine riders have more work. Now cutting out pve drastically cuts design time, you don't need dungeon designers, you don't need mob artwork etc..

    But $10mil sounds about right to me.

    Be interesting to know the budget for planetside 2 as that's the closest modern approximation to what they are trying to do, though of course that doesn't have crafting / housing / economy.
  • BenbradaBenbrada Plainfield, ILPosts: 328Member Uncommon
    Even though I'm not the biggest fan of no PvE I'm inspired to help fund just because of their attitude and boldness... who knows maybe I'll learn to love PvP :-D
  • meddyckmeddyck Athens, GAPosts: 1,140Member Uncommon
    I really want to believe in this game given how many years I enjoyed playing DAOC's RvR, but I need to see some concrete details first. It's easy for any dev to make statements about how they are going to do things differently. It's another thing to actually do it and have the result be something players find fun and want to pay for.

    Camelot Unchained Backer
    DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  • Marcus-Marcus- chepachet, RIPosts: 969Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nationalcity

    It's not gonna matter the no PVE at all is just ridiculous. And it's gonna be a huge turnoff to alot of folks, I mean really people are gonna non-stop RVR all day everyday with nothing else to do...... mhmmm sureeeeee.........

     

    I'm really happy for the people who actually like this but I mean I just can't wrap my head around why they would pull such a stupid move...........

     
     
     
     
     

     Give me something worth fighting over, and I'd be more than happy to do it. 

    To me, theres got to be more than fighting the same ol' AI hoping to get a new (shinnie) ring so i can show it off at the bank, or worse, so i can fight the same AI to get the next (shinnie) ring.

    Different strokes and all that....

  • OgreRaperOgreRaper Detroit, MIPosts: 376Member
    I've never donated to anything through kickstarter, but I really think I'm gonna open my wallet for this one.
  • cronius77cronius77 Fairfax, VAPosts: 1,347Member Uncommon

    warhammer online is pretty much only pvp now because no one does any pve at all , they also have wrath of heroes which is all pvp as well . That is just a lobby version similiar to LOL . People play both those games still to this date and getting 20k subs out of something similiar wouldnt be all that hard to do just by word of mouth alone.

    Now add in a huge persistant world made up of three frontiers , where the pvp is fair on new players but rewarding on vets and I highly doubt anyone will miss doing pve. This game is set to be a niche not mainstream, you want to pve and raid you got Rift and WOW and a zillion other games out there to play. Some of us played DAOC for years and mostly did realm vs realm , same with warhammer online. There is a market for this regardless of what a few posters here think.

    If you add in realm vs realm with say limited skill sets no charcter levels and you earn realm points like DAOC to buy more abilities and you can craft weapons and armor , have your own house and sige keeps . I see no reason this game would not have over 20k subs at the very least with all the crap games that have zero effort put into them having more than 20k subs easy.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,187Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Torv. Just outdoor pvp, crafting and housing. By no pve I take that to mean no quests, no dungeons, no mobs, except maybe guards.

    Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking.  I think the no mobs part would be a mistake though.  Part of what made daoc rvr define the term was competition for pve resources with the focus being on pvp.  It was fighting for resources in the rvr zone that added that competitive feel which I think pvp players find satisfying (at least I know it worked that way in Lineage).

    It will be interesting to see where he goes with this.  I know new ideas or a return to old favorite ideas can be exciting, but he's directly responsible for some horrible changes/features in daoc and war.  It seems prudent to loot at this with some scrutiny, especially with a kickstarter.  Look at some of the recent sketchy kickstarter projects.

  • karmuskarmus LondonPosts: 7Member
    I may or may not end up liking this game, but his motivations for designing and making the game are spot on. I only wish other game developers were as willing as he seemingly is, to disregard the whining masses and just make a game that they think will be fun both for themselves, and others.  Designing a game based around mass appeal seriously just doesn't work, and i hope this game is successful if only to encourage future developers to start trying to make games that are fun to play, not games that are likely to yield the highest profit.
  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,187Member Uncommon

    It actually does take at least $10M+ to make a triple A quality mmo.  That's 3A quality in graphics, engine performance, back-end engineering, client development / modification.

    We used to have a developer blog here by a woman on a semi-indie project.  The project folded unfortunately and she detailed why, along with a very real description of what it costs and takes to develop an mmo.  The very bottom line was $10M with her estimating that $20 - $30M currently is a very realistic expectation without a bunch of frills.

    Rift cost over $50M to produce [1].  TOR is estimated to have cost $150 - $200M[2] (although Michael Pachter pulled $80M out of his ass - only god knows where he got that number [it's in a gamespot article]).

    Maybe he can pull it off with an engine that is cheaper to license, has pre-existing assets to purchase and license, and by limiting the feature set.  Just some food for thought.

  • HagnarHagnar AlessandriaPosts: 39Member
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    "I know it would be very easy just to go out and use buzzwords like “sandbox” lots and lots in describing this game to attract players and investors."

    That's exactly what he's done.  He's thrown out sandbox, rvr, made a few slights at themepark to generate a real frothy frenzy, and basically pandered to a vocal crowd of perpetual malcontents.

    He keeps talking how his game wll be niche.  I'm curious how he plans on havinig 60K players pay for it (his number not mine).  What does it take to make a game at minimum, $10M, $20M, $30M?  If he gets $5M from his kickstarter, which 60K people could fund reasonably (at an average of $83.34 per person) that leaves another $15 - 25M.  He needs to recoup $250 - $417 per person just to break even, which doesn't include operating expenses, overhead, and continued development.

    He keeps talking talking no pve, only rvr, but what does that really mean?  A core piece to rvr is competition for resources, including mob drops.  I guess he could just have scattered crafting nodes and use players as loot droppers, but he hasn't detailed anything.

    He mentions tiered subscriptions, which is the very definition of pay to win.

    People are sucking this up with little thought to the changes he brought to daoc and war.  This is going to be an interesting and fun one to watch.  If you think the TOR and GW2 hype fallout was something, just wait and watch this.

    Your argument is wrong simply because you don't need 30M $ to make a rvr-mmo. Daoc cost 2.5 M $ and reached 250K subscriber peak. 

     

    Born as a berserker, I was also a hero, a bounty hunter, a paladin ,a troubador and a paladin once again during my Mmo''s experiences .. Now travelling in a galaxy looking for a new adventure

  • AlomarAlomar Middle Earth, NJPosts: 445Member Uncommon
    Critics can go play boring and repetative Instanced "Open-World-PvP" in way-too-casual GW2. This is what I want in a game, I'll be there for the kickstarter.

    Dozens of MMO's, RTS's, FPS's, etc.

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