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no dependancy issues here

eye_meye_m Notta Chance, ABPosts: 3,132Member Uncommon

There are lots of reasons to praise GW2, and by all means, I have no intention of mentioning them all in this thread. The one thing that really sets GW2 above so many typical mmorpgs, is how the game doesn't make player feel "under the thumb" of others. Players work together naturally, and the flow of the game contributes to players learning how to help improve each others damage, tanking, crowd control or healing. It's amazing watching the synergies between players grow as it progresses through a dynamic event chain.  People working together because they can, because they are seeing more ways that their own character can add to the fight beyond just dps or heals or just standing there taking hits. Things like a necro moving over to drop a well around a ranger, to add the cross-profession combo letting the ranger do more damage.  It's not only about maxing out what your toon can do, but helping to max out what other players can do too,and only because you can not because you have to.    

 

Other games keep players of one role utterly dependant on another, leaving them with little choice but to submit to putting up with the irritations of their own group, in addition to the frustrations of opposing characters and such. How often have we heard the tank telling the healer how to heal, or the healer telling the tank how to mitigate damage.  The rage and frustration that game design leads to is absolutely defeating to newcomers. The learning curve is strife with abuse and beratement, and undoubtedly the greatest cause for the callous term "noob". And what choice does the newcomer have? They have to fill a role, because the game defines them as a dependant. They are forced to be reliant on the goodwill of others, and typically, too many  "others" don't let them forget it either. 

 

I suggest that this treatment is cyclical in nature as well, and that it creates a roll-over from one player to another. In cases of mental abuse it has been observed that as much as 70% of abusers were abused themselves.  There is no way to derive an accurate number of the counter point, but it's easy to assume that a large percentage of people that were initiated within dependancy role will become dependant upon the role structure in the future. 

 

They become climatized to the role of  "be a good *** so nobody can complain" They develop a sense of  "in-game worth" in accordance to how others regard them. Left alone, they can't define their value. They have become dependant, on being dependant.

 

But with GW2 and the open grouping system, people can still play together to acheive an objective, but there isn't a power struggle over who gets to drive the group. There isn't an abused newcomer, belittled and ridiculed.  There isn't a devalued dependant, who is looking for the next group to hide in.  There is just a gathering of players, working together to finish the task at hand. They are equals. They are valued and appreciated. They are heroes. 

All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

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Comments

  • Eir_SEir_S Argyle, NYPosts: 4,623Member
    I honestly don't care what anyone says, they did something right with their game because I have rarely ever seen any arguments either in map chat or in groups, nor have I seen stupid tween speak like "baddies".  People are just there to play, there's no hierarchy or ridiculous name calling over the tiniest thing, and I love it.  If that's casual, count me in.
  • Rider071Rider071 Utica, NYPosts: 318Member

    The game is training wheels for those wanting to play in MMOs.

    nothing more.

    I say this because, if you chat in GW2, you die. The game does not make it easy nor possible to chat and play.

    This makes it great for playability, but horrible for tactics.  Awesome for zergs, but horrible for small group rvr, especially those not using a vent vs those that are.

    You would think that the game knowing how handicapped they have made the player in regards to chat would have put in an in-game voice chat, but this is the same game that can't handle the graphics of the rvr/pvp it has publicized it specializes in.

    So, no, on many levels. You call yourselves 'heroes' for playing this game, I call you something else.

    But I would reccommend it for the person getting their feet wet in MMOs, it's a decent investment, but it's not something I would reccommend an MMO vet unless I wanted that person really angry at me for a while.

    Though come to think of it, EQ1, EQ2, TERA, Vanguard, Aion, DDO, LoTRO, AoC, WARTrial, Aika...there are so many good F2P out there, I rescind mystatement, I would not reccommend the game to a first timer, I would reccommend one of these F2P games which imho are better made (yes, I said Aika is better than GW2).

  • PaRoXiTiCPaRoXiTiC Denison, TXPosts: 576Member Uncommon

    I was just thinking about this today. Trying to take back Arah with a relatively small group, and seeing people Shadow in the midst of chaos just to rez other players is awesome. 

    And not one of the games you listed above me are anywhere near the calibur of GW2. AoC has the potential to be on par, but that is it.

  • Eir_SEir_S Argyle, NYPosts: 4,623Member
    Originally posted by PaRoXiTiC

    I was just thinking about this today. Trying to take back Arah with a relatively small group, and seeing people Shadow in the midst of chaos just to rez other players is awesome. 

    And not one of the games you listed above me are anywhere near the calibur of GW2. AoC has the potential to be on par, but that is it.

    One eyebrow instinctively raised when he mentioned Aion and Tera... oh well, opinions 'n all that, but the poster does come off as quite bitter.

  • eye_meye_m Notta Chance, ABPosts: 3,132Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rider071

     

    I say this because, if you chat in GW2, you die. The game does not make it easy nor possible to chat and play.

     

    Ahh, so you prefer a game that is so slow paced you have time to type out a long winded speech during play.  Do they make turn based mmorpgs for people such as yourself? 

    All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

    I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

    I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

  • Eir_SEir_S Argyle, NYPosts: 4,623Member
    Originally posted by eyelolled
    Originally posted by Rider071

     

    I say this because, if you chat in GW2, you die. The game does not make it easy nor possible to chat and play.

     

    Ahh, so you prefer a game that is so slow paced you have time to type out a long winded speech during play.  Do they make turn based mmorpgs for people such as yourself? 

    X-Com?  Seriously though, I have stationed my GW2 character(s) at waypoints in guarded settlements only to come back to a dead character or at least the challenge of proecting myself.  It's more exciting than knowing everything that's going to happen so much that the game becomes little more than a virtual chat room.  I have Skype for that shit. 

  • Rider071Rider071 Utica, NYPosts: 318Member
    Originally posted by eyelolled
    Originally posted by Rider071

     

    I say this because, if you chat in GW2, you die. The game does not make it easy nor possible to chat and play.

     

    Ahh, so you prefer a game that is so slow paced you have time to type out a long winded speech during play.  Do they make turn based mmorpgs for people such as yourself? 

    They make MMORPGS for ppl like myself, yes.

    They make FPS for ppl like you as well.

    [mod edit]

  • eye_meye_m Notta Chance, ABPosts: 3,132Member Uncommon

     

    EDIT : Remove banter

     

    Look, I don't care about arguing with some "anti-GW2 fanatic" because they think they need to share how they don't like the game.

     

    Do you have anything to say that is following the point of the OP?  In other words, can you share something pertinent on the subject?

    All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

    I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

    I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

  • SirFubarSirFubar SeoulPosts: 397Member
    Originally posted by Rider071

    The game is training wheels for those wanting to play in MMOs.

    nothing more.

    I say this because, if you chat in GW2, you die. The game does not make it easy nor possible to chat and play.

    This makes it great for playability, but horrible for tactics.  Awesome for zergs, but horrible for small group rvr, especially those not using a vent vs those that are.

    You would think that the game knowing how handicapped they have made the player in regards to chat would have put in an in-game voice chat, but this is the same game that can't handle the graphics of the rvr/pvp it has publicized it specializes in.

    So, no, on many levels. You call yourselves 'heroes' for playing this game, I call you something else.

    But I would reccommend it for the person getting their feet wet in MMOs, it's a decent investment, but it's not something I would reccommend an MMO vet unless I wanted that person really angry at me for a while.

    Though come to think of it, EQ1, EQ2, TERA, Vanguard, Aion, DDO, LoTRO, AoC, WARTrial, Aika...there are so many good F2P out there, I rescind mystatement, I would not reccommend the game to a first timer, I would reccommend one of these F2P games which imho are better made (yes, I said Aika is better than GW2).

    You lost all credibility right there. Aika better than GW2... sorry but LOL. This game is a pure joke and the combat is one of the worst I've played. And that's not even a question of opinions... If you clearly think that Aika is better made then GW2, there's really something wrong with you lol. No offense.

  • Rider071Rider071 Utica, NYPosts: 318Member

    From SirFubar:

    'You lost all credibility right there. Aika better than GW2... sorry but LOL. This game is a pure joke and the combat is one of the worst I've played. And that's not even a question of opinions... If you clearly think that Aika is better made then GW2, there's really something wrong with you lol. No offense.'

     

    Aika is better than GW2 in terms of pvp especially. When they say 1000s vs 1000s on the battlefield, guess what, it's done, and it's playable, there are no engine issues.

    The politics and Lord Marshall aspects make for a much more intriguing pvp game than GW2 could ever hope to be.

    So yeah, I stand by that statement wholeheartedly.

    As to my credibility, I have played both games, whereas I'm guessing you haven't even visited Aika's website much less contributed to the War (main gameplay) of Aika. Much like playing the tutorial of DAoC and saying "it's shat", amirite?

    "not even a question of opinions"? Aika is one of the leading most populated/profitable games in the East, which question of opinions are you referring to?

  • Rider071Rider071 Utica, NYPosts: 318Member
    Originally posted by eyelolled

     

    EDIT : Remove banter

     

    Look, I don't care about arguing with some "anti-GW2 fanatic" because they think they need to share how they don't like the game.

     

    Do you have anything to say that is following the point of the OP?  In other words, can you share something pertinent on the subject?

    1. you're the OP, and you speak of yourself in the 3rd person?

    2. I was responding you to your overall statement saying GW2 is the second coming of MMOs (which happens from you every 3 days or so) this time about how we can all play because we don't have to communicate. Well that is one of the fundamental problems with the game, imho.  Something an MMORPG is defined by is it's ability for the MMO players to communicate amongst themselves.

    As such I called it an MMO for new players, but I have since rescinded that. In addition because it doesn't have a trinity, something every MMO will most likely have going forward because of the mistakes of GW2. Also a trinity is definitely something a newcomer to MMOs should learn about. The more I think on it, the more GW2 starts to look more like an FPS, with an engine that doesn't render targets well, but as most FPS have a great communication system in them, as such GW2 would make a bad FPS title as well.

     

    Don't get me wrong, I like GW2, I bought it, but culling caused me to rage quit shortly after hitting 80 and playing WvWvW full time - as was the purpose of my purchase. I stayed silent for the last month about the game as the devs said they were going to fix it (after waiting months after release for them to even address the problem). Guess what, they haven't fixed it.

    So I tire of the fanboi topics in our forums of a game that clearly doesn't deserve the praise until they fix the basics of what makes it a pvp game. I wish they would have fixed it long ago, I would still be playing and possibly defending the game, but the longer it goes unfixed, the farther I get from it and play other better games. All the while remembering clearly, why I don't like the game, and how I got suckered into buying a pvp game, that wasn't.

  • ZyzraZyzra Madison, WIPosts: 354Member

    I'm not sure about this really.  Since Guild Wars 2 doesn't even require a group to do objectives in a massive cluster of AOE.  It's more an anonymous tidal wave of players that crashes into the monsters at the obfuscated quests dotted throughout the maps than anything structured like a group coordinating.

     [mod edit]

  • itgrowlsitgrowls newport news, VAPosts: 2,951Member
    Originally posted by eyelolled 

    But with GW2 and the open grouping system, people can still play together to acheive an objective, but there isn't a power struggle over who gets to drive the group. There isn't an abused newcomer, belittled and ridiculed.  There isn't a devalued dependant, who is looking for the next group to hide in.  There is just a gathering of players, working together to finish the task at hand. They are equals. They are valued and appreciated. They are heroes. 

    Not for long, along with forcing people to WvW and do dungeons, they'll be adding the new "feature" of requiring people to do guild events this month. So much for choose to play your own way.

  • CelciusCelcius Franklin, TNPosts: 1,000Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rider071

    From SirFubar:

    'You lost all credibility right there. Aika better than GW2... sorry but LOL. This game is a pure joke and the combat is one of the worst I've played. And that's not even a question of opinions... If you clearly think that Aika is better made then GW2, there's really something wrong with you lol. No offense.'

     

    Aika is better than GW2 in terms of pvp especially. When they say 1000s vs 1000s on the battlefield, guess what, it's done, and it's playable, there are no engine issues.

    The politics and Lord Marshall aspects make for a much more intriguing pvp game than GW2 could ever hope to be.

    So yeah, I stand by that statement wholeheartedly.

    As to my credibility, I have played both games, whereas I'm guessing you haven't even visited Aika's website much less contributed to the War (main gameplay) of Aika. Much like playing the tutorial of DAoC and saying "it's shat", amirite?

    "not even a question of opinions"? Aika is one of the leading most populated/profitable games in the East, which question of opinions are you referring to?

    There are 1000 people playing Aika? lol...One of the leading most populated games in the east? Wow, ever heard of Lineage, Lineage 2, or Aion? The game can have a ton of people on your screen in an Isometric view...with absolutely horrible visuals, congrats! Last time I checked (Today) the only issue GW2 has in WvW is with rendering which has been improved to the point where it is barely an issue anymore. People's performance is really good especially considering how awesome the game looks. This has not been done well before. Seriously though if you are going to claim that GW2 is bad, backup your opion with an argument that is not something we see over and over on these forums by people who just hate the game because thats how they get off. I will say though that comparing a game such as Aika to GW2 is new, kudos for the originality on that one. It is too bad that GW2 probably makes more money in a day then Aika makes in a month.

  • hpistihpisti BudapestPosts: 78Member
    Originally posted by itgrowls
    Originally posted by eyelolled 

    But with GW2 and the open grouping system, people can still play together to acheive an objective, but there isn't a power struggle over who gets to drive the group. There isn't an abused newcomer, belittled and ridiculed.  There isn't a devalued dependant, who is looking for the next group to hide in.  There is just a gathering of players, working together to finish the task at hand. They are equals. They are valued and appreciated. They are heroes. 

    Not for long, along with forcing people to WvW and do dungeons, they'll be adding the new "feature" of requiring people to do guild events this month. So much for choose to play your own way.

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/releases/february-2013/

    "With our new selectable achievement system, you’ll have a chance to set new daily challenges for yourself and to choose what kind of content you want to be rewarded for playing."

    Happy?

  • CelciusCelcius Franklin, TNPosts: 1,000Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by itgrowls
    Originally posted by eyelolled 

    But with GW2 and the open grouping system, people can still play together to acheive an objective, but there isn't a power struggle over who gets to drive the group. There isn't an abused newcomer, belittled and ridiculed.  There isn't a devalued dependant, who is looking for the next group to hide in.  There is just a gathering of players, working together to finish the task at hand. They are equals. They are valued and appreciated. They are heroes. 

    Not for long, along with forcing people to WvW and do dungeons, they'll be adding the new "feature" of requiring people to do guild events this month. So much for choose to play your own way.

    Why would they force people to do WvW? There is no where they said that they are doing that. Please explain this to me as I think you are full of it. You have to do dungeons for the monthly if you want to complete it...woopdy do. You aren't FORCED to do it. You will still be able to experience the same content as everyone else. The game is inclusive as in; you do not have to gear up to do content and it does not contain gated content. So no, you don't have to participate in certain parts of the game if you don't want to. The whole "forcing" you to do guild missions thing is also completely pulled out of thin air, as we have virtually no information on that yet. All we know about that content is that you can participate even if you aren't in the same guild or in a guild at all. You just don't get rewards on the same level the guild who started it does. It does not force you to do it as you can do it if you want to or not and it will not change your ability to do all the other content in the game.

    If you are going to attack GW2 I suggest not attacking it's strongest aspect.

  • ZeroxinZeroxin LondonPosts: 2,521Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by itgrowls
    Originally posted by eyelolled 

    But with GW2 and the open grouping system, people can still play together to acheive an objective, but there isn't a power struggle over who gets to drive the group. There isn't an abused newcomer, belittled and ridiculed.  There isn't a devalued dependant, who is looking for the next group to hide in.  There is just a gathering of players, working together to finish the task at hand. They are equals. They are valued and appreciated. They are heroes. 

    Not for long, along with forcing people to WvW and do dungeons, they'll be adding the new "feature" of requiring people to do guild events this month. So much for choose to play your own way.

    Whilst I've gone into a WvW Zone, I certainly haven't engaged in any WvW....so as a player of GW2, I'm not sure what you're talking about. 

    EDIT: Also, whilst they are adding Guild Events this month, they are also adding selectable Daily Achievements but  obvioously as a naysayer, you want the "negatives" that you propose to be at the forefront rather than good information that could render your argument useless.

    This is not a game.

  • Rider071Rider071 Utica, NYPosts: 318Member
    Originally posted by Celcius
    Originally posted by Rider071

    From SirFubar:

    There are 1000 people playing Aika? lol...One of the leading most populated games in the east? Wow, ever heard of Lineage, Lineage 2, or Aion? The game can have a ton of people on your screen in an Isometric view...with absolutely horrible visuals, congrats! Last time I checked (Today) the only issue GW2 has in WvW is with rendering which has been improved to the point where it is barely an issue anymore. People's performance is really good especially considering how awesome the game looks. This has not been done well before. Seriously though if you are going to claim that GW2 is bad, backup your opion with an argument that is not something we see over and over on these forums by people who just hate the game because thats how they get off. I will say though that comparing a game such as Aika to GW2 is new, kudos for the originality on that one. It is too bad that GW2 probably makes more money in a day then Aika makes in a month.

    OK, I did say 'one of', I did not say 'the' leading. Yes, Lineage, Aion are others, there are a few more if you bothered to check. But yes, Aika has 1000s playing it in the east. The world does not revolve around the West, as much as you feel it does, it doesn't.

    At high points Aika West had close to these numbers on its release, but they made bad management decisions with the IP restrictions, release of Global, etc. I have yet to see the populations since it has transferred to T3Fun last month. Regardless, there was never a graphics issue, and the graphics quality never changed, you maybe want to update that computer of yours.

    I have backed up my opinon again and again, what evidence do you have that they have fixed culling? I logged into JQ 3 days ago, and nothing has changed in WvWvW.

    'Last time I checked (Today) the only issue GW2 has in WvW is with rendering which has been improved to the point where it is barely an issue anymore.'

    Really, this was in WvWvW? As the devs recently posted nothing was going to change..yet, so...either you play on a server with 0 population (possible), or you're fibbing (also possible).

  • ZeroxinZeroxin LondonPosts: 2,521Member Uncommon
    I believe they added, low-rez renders that come into play before the hi-rez renders. Which is probably what he means by minimizing culling.

    This is not a game.

  • CelciusCelcius Franklin, TNPosts: 1,000Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Zeroxin
    I believe they added, low-rez renders that come into play before the hi-rez renders. Which is probably what he means by minimizing culling.

    This. The "pop in" was improved. They also seperated the enemy culling pool from the ally culling pool as well as prioritized seeing enemy players over allies. Overall this has vastly improved culling and it is only bad in extremely big fights. I also play on Sanctum of Rall which is a T1 server with pretty substantial que times, so you can safely assume my server does not have 0 people...not that any server does, all of them still have high or very high populations. (The caps were also raised, so the old "Full" is now "Very High" the old "Very High" is "High",ect. 

  • mikahrmikahr ZagrebPosts: 1,066Member
    Originally posted by Rider071Though come to think of it, EQ1, EQ2, TERA, Vanguard, Aion, DDO, LoTRO, AoC, WARTrial, Aika...there are so many good F2P out there, I rescind mystatement, I would not reccommend the game to a first timer, I would reccommend one of these F2P games which imho are better made (yes, I said Aika is better than GW2).

    The only thing that comes out of going to those games is to see how bad they are compared to GW2 and return to GW2.

    EQ1/2, Vanguard, does it get any worse than that? Nope, those are one of worse games ever made.

    LOTRO and AoC have its charms (mostly world/visuals) but fail like mile short in anything else.

    War, Aika? ROFL

    The only reason you would recommend those games to newcomer is if they want to go away from MMOs on a VERY short notice. Why would you recommend very bad games to chase newcomers away when MMOs need new people desperately?

    Originally posted by Rider071

    They make MMORPGS for ppl like myself, yes.

    Really? They do? They?

    "They" havent made "game for people like yourself" in 10 years lol And for a VERY good reason

    Originally posted by itgrowls

    Not for long, along with forcing people to WvW and do dungeons, they'll be adding the new "feature" of requiring people to do guild events this month. So much for choose to play your own way.

    Mmmm, imagination much? Yes.

    You really like imagining things, dont you?

    Contrary to your belief: having a feature =/= "forcing you to play the feature" lol

    They dont force ANYTHING on you (well, except grouping for final story mission).

  • eye_meye_m Notta Chance, ABPosts: 3,132Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rider071
    Originally posted by eyelolled

     

    EDIT : Remove banter

     

    Look, I don't care about arguing with some "anti-GW2 fanatic" because they think they need to share how they don't like the game.

     

    Do you have anything to say that is following the point of the OP?  In other words, can you share something pertinent on the subject?

    1. you're the OP, and you speak of yourself in the 3rd person?

    2. I was responding you to your overall statement saying GW2 is the second coming of MMOs (which happens from you every 3 days or so) this time about how we can all play because we don't have to communicate. Well that is one of the fundamental problems with the game, imho.  Something an MMORPG is defined by is it's ability for the MMO players to communicate amongst themselves.

    As such I called it an MMO for new players, but I have since rescinded that. In addition because it doesn't have a trinity, something every MMO will most likely have going forward because of the mistakes of GW2. Also a trinity is definitely something a newcomer to MMOs should learn about. The more I think on it, the more GW2 starts to look more like an FPS, with an engine that doesn't render targets well, but as most FPS have a great communication system in them, as such GW2 would make a bad FPS title as well.

     

    Don't get me wrong, I like GW2, I bought it, but culling caused me to rage quit shortly after hitting 80 and playing WvWvW full time - as was the purpose of my purchase. I stayed silent for the last month about the game as the devs said they were going to fix it (after waiting months after release for them to even address the problem). Guess what, they haven't fixed it.

    So I tire of the fanboi topics in our forums of a game that clearly doesn't deserve the praise until they fix the basics of what makes it a pvp game. I wish they would have fixed it long ago, I would still be playing and possibly defending the game, but the longer it goes unfixed, the farther I get from it and play other better games. All the while remembering clearly, why I don't like the game, and how I got suckered into buying a pvp game, that wasn't.

    First of all, OP stands for original post as well as original poster.

     

    Secondly, I didn't claim GW2 was the second coming of MMO's, I said there were lots of things that are great but I had 1 basic point to make, so I wasn't going in to anything else. 

    [mod edit]

    And finally, it's not hard to read your post and see that you are not actually trying to debate my points, rather you are just hating on GW2 because of the culling issue. And I quote "So I tire of the fanboi topics in our forums of a game that clearly doesn't deserve the praise until they fix the basics of what makes it a pvp game. "  That, is hating on a game, not discussing the validity of my points at all, just spewing misinformation.

     

    [mod edit]

     

    All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

    I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

    I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

  • eye_meye_m Notta Chance, ABPosts: 3,132Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by itgrowls
    Originally posted by eyelolled 

    But with GW2 and the open grouping system, people can still play together to acheive an objective, but there isn't a power struggle over who gets to drive the group. There isn't an abused newcomer, belittled and ridiculed.  There isn't a devalued dependant, who is looking for the next group to hide in.  There is just a gathering of players, working together to finish the task at hand. They are equals. They are valued and appreciated. They are heroes. 

    Not for long, along with forcing people to WvW and do dungeons, they'll be adding the new "feature" of requiring people to do guild events this month. So much for choose to play your own way.

    Wow, are you ever out of touch on this game anymore. 

     

    Yeah, there's a guy holding a gun to my head saying "do WvW and dungeons or there is a bullet with your name on it"

    Exaggerate much? Sure seems like you've joined the ranks of people having troubles making legitimate and productive comments because you just want to rage about your personal disappointment.

     

    EDIT: My point was not expressed with the severity that I would prefer, so I removed it.

    All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

    I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

    I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

  • AlberelAlberel LondonPosts: 1,121Member
    Originally posted by eyelolled

    There are lots of reasons to praise GW2, and by all means, I have no intention of mentioning them all in this thread. The one thing that really sets GW2 above so many typical mmorpgs, is how the game doesn't make player feel "under the thumb" of others. Players work together naturally, and the flow of the game contributes to players learning how to help improve each others damage, tanking, crowd control or healing. It's amazing watching the synergies between players grow as it progresses through a dynamic event chain.  People working together because they can, because they are seeing more ways that their own character can add to the fight beyond just dps or heals or just standing there taking hits. Things like a necro moving over to drop a well around a ranger, to add the cross-profession combo letting the ranger do more damage.  It's not only about maxing out what your toon can do, but helping to max out what other players can do too,and only because you can not because you have to.    

     

    Other games keep players of one role utterly dependant on another, leaving them with little choice but to submit to putting up with the irritations of their own group, in addition to the frustrations of opposing characters and such. How often have we heard the tank telling the healer how to heal, or the healer telling the tank how to mitigate damage.  The rage and frustration that game design leads to is absolutely defeating to newcomers. The learning curve is strife with abuse and beratement, and undoubtedly the greatest cause for the callous term "noob". And what choice does the newcomer have? They have to fill a role, because the game defines them as a dependant. They are forced to be reliant on the goodwill of others, and typically, too many  "others" don't let them forget it either. 

     

    I suggest that this treatment is cyclical in nature as well, and that it creates a roll-over from one player to another. In cases of mental abuse it has been observed that as much as 70% of abusers were abused themselves.  There is no way to derive an accurate number of the counter point, but it's easy to assume that a large percentage of people that were initiated within dependancy role will become dependant upon the role structure in the future. 

     

    They become climatized to the role of  "be a good *** so nobody can complain" They develop a sense of  "in-game worth" in accordance to how others regard them. Left alone, they can't define their value. They have become dependant, on being dependant.

     

    But with GW2 and the open grouping system, people can still play together to acheive an objective, but there isn't a power struggle over who gets to drive the group. There isn't an abused newcomer, belittled and ridiculed.  There isn't a devalued dependant, who is looking for the next group to hide in.  There is just a gathering of players, working together to finish the task at hand. They are equals. They are valued and appreciated. They are heroes. 

    I know that I and many others find GW2's combat to be entirely unrewarding as very little of the game actually takes any form of coordination in groups. By killing class roles like they have they kill a lot of player identity and uniqueness... and most victories are the result of sheer numbers and not teamwork.

    Considering the waypoint zerg issues (which yes I know have been fixed to some extent in dungeons now) and the way healing has essentially been replaced with constant rezzing when someone is downed group combat quickly becomes quite mindless.

    Essentially the game gives groups a lot of flexibility in exchange for taking away a lot of what made group combat fun for many people. You don't really feel like you make much of a difference in GW2 because anyone can do what you do... even a guardian using a skill to save an ally from an attack feels redundant most of the time as the cooldown is so long that the enemy will use the attack again before you can defend again.

    When I see no clear benefit that my actions bring to a group I just start to feel like one of many identical cogs in the machine, and that isn't fun... most of my friends got bored for the same reason.

    It's great that you can still enjoy the game but the very thing you're praising here is the reason many people got bored... IMO class roles were worth the bitching. They need to fix the bitching, not homogenise classes even further.

  • eye_meye_m Notta Chance, ABPosts: 3,132Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Alberel

     

    I know that I and many others find GW2's combat to be entirely unrewarding as very little of the game actually takes any form of coordination in groups. By killing class roles like they have they kill a lot of player identity and uniqueness... and most victories are the result of sheer numbers and not teamwork.

    Considering the waypoint zerg issues (which yes I know have been fixed to some extent in dungeons now) and the way healing has essentially been replaced with constant rezzing when someone is downed group combat quickly becomes quite mindless.

    Essentially the game gives groups a lot of flexibility in exchange for taking away a lot of what made group combat fun for many people. You don't really feel like you make much of a difference in GW2 because anyone can do what you do... even a guardian using a skill to save an ally from an attack feels redundant most of the time as the cooldown is so long that the enemy will use the attack again before you can defend again.

    When I see no clear benefit that my actions bring to a group I just start to feel like one of many identical cogs in the machine, and that isn't fun... most of my friends got bored for the same reason.

    It's great that you can still enjoy the game but the very thing you're praising here is the reason many people got bored... IMO class roles were worth the bitching. They need to fix the bitching, not homogenise classes even further.

    I think the thing that you are failing to consider, is that the flexibility for how to complete an encounter was required because there was going to be so many people who could not understand the concept of how to fight effectively within their combat system.  If a person fails too much, they quit trying.

     

    The other thing that I think fails to be observed fairly, is how the numbers have balanced out so much better now.  I go through DE's with usually around 5 - 10 people and the major events are usually about 20 - 40.  It's definately not a zerg game like when it first released.  And I wasn't kidding when I mentioned seeing people starting to work together better, even though they were in a formal qroup.

     

    And I definately was aware that the reasons I am supporting the game, are the same reasons others dislike it.  It wouldn't make a very interesting thread if there was nothing to debate.

    All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

    I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

    I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

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