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What I see as ESO's possible pitfall.

DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,916Member Uncommon

When I put what I've seen of this game together into one big picture, I'm seeing a game that is aiming to answer complaints made toward many of this genres entries over the last 5-7 years.

Those complaints being:

1: Lack of exploration

2: Two factions can be lopsided and doesn't work

3: Creating too many servers, merges etc...

4: FFA PVP being problematic toward PVE game-play

5: Lack of meaningful rewarding PVP

6: Environments being static with no acknowledgement of deeds done

7: Crafting being an after thought as well as inferior to other gear paths

8: Classes and progression within, too similar to WOW

If you've watched the PUB for the last 5 years or so, I think you'll remember many of these complaints above being trending topics over those years. As many games have released with these problems or faced them soon after release. Another common complaint was hyping a game over many years, rather than just months before people get to see it.

I'm not saying ESO will be the answer to these problems, I'm just seeing many of them being taken on in it's design. Much like the goal seemed to be for GW2.

If anything good comes of that, it's that it shows devs are moving toward new ideas and rehashes of old ones we rarely see.

Where my thread titles comes from though is a worry that they may be trying to take on too many of those complaints, or are aiming to please too wide a demographic. A focus on doing many things okay, rather than a few things near perfect, can be almost as bad as doing nothing right.

As the saying goes, "we shall see". I'll remain caustiously optimistic until beta.

 

 

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

«134

Comments

  • SoulrynSoulryn Brno, COPosts: 11Member

    Creating too many servers? WOWlike classes and progression? FFA PvP? 

    Get some info about the game -.-´

  • boxsndboxsnd Kraxton, ARPosts: 438Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Soulryn

    Creating too many servers? WOWlike classes and progression? FFA PvP? 

    Get some info about the game -.-´

    Did you even read his post?

    DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann

  • MyTabbycatMyTabbycat SP, MOPosts: 312Member
    I think ESO addresses most of your issues except for #1 Exploration. There are many threads about faction locked territories so I won't get into that too much. But I think if there is anything that might hurt this game it would be that. There will be players from the single player TES games that are used to being able to traverse all over the game map, whether it was via levitation in Morrowind to get over the mountains or riding your horse up a steep cliffside in Skyrim thanks to the weird physics in the game. They will come into ESO expecting to be able to do the same thing and will complain when they realize they have to make 3 characters in order to do so.
  • AcidonAcidon Salem, ORPosts: 797Member

    Well regardless of the fate of ESO, it sure has gained a lot of traction here @ MMORPG.com.  The amount of threads is staggering.

    I believe hype is hype.

    Playing: H1Z1, The Crew, Defiance, APB:Reloaded
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  • AngztAngzt berlinPosts: 230Member
    pitfall was an awesome game tho ^^

    "believe me, mike.. i calculated the odds of this working against the odds that i was doing something incredibly stupid… and i did it anyway!"

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Tabby
    That depend how big the world is. If its anything like daoc the world will be huge and there will be considerably more exploration than in modern mmos.
  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,916Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Tabby
    That depend how big the world is. If its anything like daoc the world will be huge and there will be considerably more exploration than in modern mmos.

    Very true.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • RazperilRazperil Lewiston, MEPosts: 289Member
    Originally posted by Distopia

    When I put what I've seen of this game together into one big picture, I'm seeing a game that is aiming to answer complaints made toward many of this genres entries over the last 5-7 years.

    Those complaints being:

    1: Lack of exploration

    2: Two factions can be lopsided and doesn't work

    3: Creating too many servers, merges etc...

    4: FFA PVP being problematic toward PVE game-play

    5: Lack of meaningful rewarding PVP

    6: Environments being static with no acknowledgement of deeds done

    7: Crafting being an after thought as well as inferior to other gear paths

    8: Classes and progression within, too similar to WOW

    If you've watched the PUB for the last 5 years or so, I think you'll remember many of these complaints above being trending topics over those years. As many games have released with these problems or faced them soon after release. Another common complaint was hyping a game over many years, rather than just months before people get to see it.

    I'm not saying ESO will be the answer to these problems, I'm just seeing many of them being taken on in it's design. Much like the goal seemed to be for GW2.

    If anything good comes of that, it's that it shows devs are moving toward new ideas and rehashes of old ones we rarely see.

    Where my thread titles comes from though is a worry that they may be trying to take on too many of those complaints, or are aiming to please too wide a demographic. A focus on doing many things okay, rather than a few things near perfect, can be almost as bad as doing nothing right.

    As the saying goes, "we shall see". I'll remain caustiously optimistic until beta.

     

     

    #8- People need to stop worrying about or comparing games to Borecraft. Not every developer is out to make "more" games simliar to Borecraft. Heck, even Borecraft isn't Borecraft anymore. If anything, it's a lesson on how to "not" make one like it. I could go on, however, it might be considered "bashing" because it's my own opinion, etc, so we'll stay on topic.

    As far as Elder Scrolls Online, the best thing you said was "we shall see". Speculating like too many do really has no benefit unless you have the need to add stress/aniexty/worry  to your life. :) Good luck with all of that nonetheless.

  • DanitaKusorDanitaKusor AdelaidePosts: 549Member Uncommon

    Well my number one complaint about MMO design is that they spend vast amount of effort designing levelling content but put limited effort into endgame content for max level players.

    I would much prefer to see a game or expansion to a game that concentrates solely on endgame content and doesn't waste it budget on levelling content that people will zoom through in a couple of days and then never visit again.

    The Enlightened take things Lightly

  • deakondeakon birminghamPosts: 583Member
    Originally posted by DanitaKusor

    Well my number one complaint about MMO design is that they spend vast amount of effort designing levelling content but put limited effort into endgame content for max level players.

    I would much prefer to see a game or expansion to a game that concentrates solely on endgame content and doesn't waste it budget on levelling content that people will zoom through in a couple of days and then never visit again.

    I kinda agree but I do think fun leveling content is a must if you want longevity, pointless having a good end game if no one makes it that far.

     

    I do agree that end game has been lacking tho, and I think its down to end game normally being the last thing they create, imho mmo dev's would be better served working backwards, make sure you have a large base end game to build up from, one thats fun even when repeated 10/20/100 times, once thats nailed you then build a good game to get you there.

     

    It's almost as if devs don't realise that leveling content is once and done where as end game has to be repeated over and over

  • mistmakermistmaker viennaPosts: 232Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Soulryn

    Creating too many servers? WOWlike classes and progression? FFA PvP? 

    Get some info about the game -.-´


     
    lol. you didnt read his post....
  • KarteliKarteli Providence, PAPosts: 2,646Member

    Well a lot of those positive points are really heresay, since nobody actually played the game outside of select representatives.

     

    I can comment on exploration.  Each factions restricted area amounts to something like 1/3 or 1/2 of a WoW continent, since devs gave away the size of Cyrodiil, noting that it was a 1:1 with Oblivion.

     

    In MMORPG language Cyrodiil wasn't that big, and therefore the other faction restricted areas will follow suit.  For a single player game, the world is nice and big.  For an MMORPG, not really.

     

     

    So the total world (3 factions instances + Cyrodiil) might be the equivalent of WoW Vanilla, but with all the artificial barriers in place to limit each factions explorable region, it's going to feel small and boxed in.

     

    Or so it seems.

     

    Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
    Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  • ikarrianikarrian SPosts: 122Member
    And....another one of these "ESO fail thread" seriously, ppl dont have anything better to do?
  • cronius77cronius77 Fairfax, VAPosts: 1,353Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ikarrian
    And....another one of these "ESO fail thread" seriously, ppl dont have anything better to do?

    might as well get used to them , this is how it is with every single release on this site . Then all the hype carries over to game release and then tons of people play it based on the hype , bash it to death , and claim its losing subs and is a failure and is going free to play next month , than the month after that etc.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Kartelli
    Bit "massaged" those map size stats.

    Oblivion is the smallest of the 5 tes games for a start.
  • deakondeakon birminghamPosts: 583Member
    Originally posted by Karteli

    Well a lot of those positive points are really here-say, since nobody actually played the game outside of select representatives.

     

    I can comment on exploration.  Each factions restricted area amounts to something like 1/3 or 1/2 of a WoW continent, since devs gave away the size of Cyradiil, noting that it was a 1:1 with Oblivion.

     

    In MMORPG language Cyradiil wasn't that big, and therefore the other faction restricted areas will follow suit.  For a single player game, the world is nice and big.  For an MMORPG, not really.

     

     

    So the total world might be the equivalent of WoW Vanilla, but with all the artificial barriers in place to limit each factions explorable region, it's going to feel small and boxed in.

     

    Or so it seems.

     

    I question how accurate that pic is

     

    For instance I know lotro is bigger than wow, but by that much? No chance, according to that vanilla lotro is 375 times the size of vanilla wow, I've played both and like I say, no chance

  • EcocesEcoces Chicago, ILPosts: 879Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ikarrian
    And....another one of these "ESO fail thread" seriously, ppl dont have anything better to do?

    this is where all the MMO hipsters hang out. if a game doesn't have

     

    open pvp

    city building

    skill based leveling

    player looting

    sandbox elements

    and if its not created by 3 guys in their parents basement.

     

    it sucks, its going to fail and its just a wow clone.

  • KarteliKarteli Providence, PAPosts: 2,646Member
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Kartelli
    Bit "massaged" those map size stats.

    Oblivion is the smallest of the 5 tes games for a start.

    It's only used as a reference.  TESO world is larger than Oblivion, but Cyrodiil was used for size comparisons, since the devs mentioned Oblivion as a 1:1 comparison in size, in relation to TESO.

     

    The actual world will be like this, which is about the size of WoW Vanilla:

     

     

    With a note that Cyrodiil will be about the size of 1/3 of a WoW Vanilla continent.  WoW had a fully open world though.  Go from there.

     

    The saving grace would be the 3D aspect, and is going to depend on how much explorable regions exist below the surface .. or above, who knows .. maybe Naxx UFO's will invade.

    Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
    Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member

    The company has a budget of $300M and ESO is (I think) the biggest game they are developing, so it's getting the biggest share of that budget. If they have bitten off more than they can chew with their goals, it won't be because they didn't have enough money to finish the job.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • KarteliKarteli Providence, PAPosts: 2,646Member
    Originally posted by deakon
    Originally posted by Karteli

    Well a lot of those positive points are really here-say, since nobody actually played the game outside of select representatives.

     

    I can comment on exploration.  Each factions restricted area amounts to something like 1/3 or 1/2 of a WoW continent, since devs gave away the size of Cyradiil, noting that it was a 1:1 with Oblivion.

     

    In MMORPG language Cyradiil wasn't that big, and therefore the other faction restricted areas will follow suit.  For a single player game, the world is nice and big.  For an MMORPG, not really.

     

     

    So the total world might be the equivalent of WoW Vanilla, but with all the artificial barriers in place to limit each factions explorable region, it's going to feel small and boxed in.

     

    Or so it seems.

     

    I question how accurate that pic is

     

    For instance I know lotro is bigger than wow, but by that much? No chance, according to that vanilla lotro is 375 times the size of vanilla wow, I've played both and like I say, no chance

    Before you question that, you might want to re-evaluate your math.  I see LOTR as 3X the size of WoW Vanilla.

     

    I'd love to know where you got 375 times bigger though.  That is an adventure in itself! :D

     

    [ie (30 / 9) miles squared]

    Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
    Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  • deakondeakon birminghamPosts: 583Member
    Originally posted by Karteli

    Before you question that, you might want to re-evaluate your math.  I see LOTR as 3X the size of WoW Vanilla.

     

    I'd love to know where you got 375 times bigger though.  That is an adventure in itself! :D

     

    [ie (30 / 9) miles squared]

    on that pic wow is 80 miles squared, lotro is supposed to be 30,000 miles squared

  • KarteliKarteli Providence, PAPosts: 2,646Member
    Originally posted by deakon
    Originally posted by Karteli

    Before you question that, you might want to re-evaluate your math.  I see LOTR as 3X the size of WoW Vanilla.

     

    I'd love to know where you got 375 times bigger though.  That is an adventure in itself! :D

     

    [ie (30 / 9) miles squared]

    on that pic wow is 80 miles squared, lotro is supposed to be 30,000 miles squared

    I see what you mean.  Upon inspection, that area covers areas non-explorable (ie the crap between areas)  Although that reference has little to do with WoW or Oblivion or the size comparison.

     

    If LOTRO was included in the chart it would exceed the size of the others, with vast empty unexplorable regions.

     

    BUT THAT IS LOTR.  MOVING ON!

    Still the size comparison between Oblivion and WoW is valid.

     

    Reinventing Oblivion

    http://web.archive.org/web/20071223022131/http://www.xbox.com/en-US/games/t/theelderscrollsIVoblivion/20051110-fe.htm

    At A Glance
    • Deep, immersive roleplaying.
    • 16 square miles of geography.
    • The sequel to Morrowind.
    • A unique leveling system.
     
    4 X 4 miles is not very big in MMORPGS.
     
     
    It's big when you are in real life  .. but if you intend to spend months+ in an MMORPG, you will have seen it all in short.
     
     

    Here's a link explaining how big WoW is .. it's a bit less than the map shows, but provies some rationale to the estimation.

     

    http://www.wowwiki.com/Talk:Azeroth_%28world%29

    Size of Azeroth

    Doing some timing of runs in the Barrens, and assuming a reasonable running speed, one can estimate the distance between two known points. By measuring the same distance on a wall map of Azeroth it looks like the Azeroth's land masses total around 50-60 square miles. This is very rough, but the calculations below show the estimated values.

    Average time to run from Crossroads north to the next signpost = 72.5 seconds = 1.208 minutes = .0201 hours. Assuming the running speed of a 6 minute mile implies 10 miles/hr. Multiply the two and you get the distance between the two signposts is .201 miles. Big assumption here is 6 minute mile for a Wow runner.

    Now using the wall map the map distance is 11/16 in. .201 miles / .6875 inches = 0.293 miles per inch. [If you use 1/3 scale it would imply a 5.25 minute mile. So maybe 1/3 is right rather than 0.293]

    The next step is where I could use some help. The size of Kalimdor on the map is around 10 inches by 25 inches. Converting this to 250 square inches to square miles (divide by 9) and get around 28 square miles. Double that for the Eastern Kingdoms to get a 50-60 square miles estimate.

    FYI the Earth is around 148.94 million sq km (or 57.5 million square miles). So it would take 1 million Azeroth's to equal the size of the Earth.

     

    Still, TESO can't be viewed as a monster game with exploration out the wazoo.  Evern if it's 2 times bigger than approximations, that is STILL small compared to a single WoW Vanilla continent, and someone would have to roll every faction just to see the "world", because 3 factions + 1 pvp zone cuts the game in fourths.

     

    Something as small as Cyrodiil is not really MMORPG material.  It needs to be bigger.

     

     

    Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
    Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,481Member Uncommon
    IMO pvp shouldn't be given rewards.  PVP is suppose to be so great so then it doesn't need a reward.
  • deakondeakon birminghamPosts: 583Member
    Originally posted by Karteli
    Originally posted by deakon
    Originally posted by Karteli

    Before you question that, you might want to re-evaluate your math.  I see LOTR as 3X the size of WoW Vanilla.

     

    I'd love to know where you got 375 times bigger though.  That is an adventure in itself! :D

     

    [ie (30 / 9) miles squared]

    on that pic wow is 80 miles squared, lotro is supposed to be 30,000 miles squared

    I see what you mean.  Upon inspection, that area covers areas non-explorable (ie the crap between areas)  Although that reference has little to do with WoW or Oblivion or the size comparison.

     

    If LOTRO was included in the chart it would exceed the size of the others, with vast empty unexplorable regions.

     

    BUT THAT IS LOTR.  MOVING ON!

    Still the size comparison between Oblivion and WoW is valid.

     

    Reinventing Oblivion

    http://web.archive.org/web/20071223022131/http://www.xbox.com/en-US/games/t/theelderscrollsIVoblivion/20051110-fe.htm

    At A Glance
    • Deep, immersive roleplaying.
    • 16 square miles of geography.
    • The sequel to Morrowind.
    • A unique leveling system.
     
    4 X 4 miles is not very big in MMORPGS.
     
     
    It's big when you are in real life  .. but if you intend to spend months+ in an MMORPG, you will have seen it all in short.
     
     

    Here's a link explaining how big WoW is .. it's a bit less than the map shows, but provies some rationale to the estimation.

     

    http://www.wowwiki.com/Talk:Azeroth_%28world%29

    Size of Azeroth

    Doing some timing of runs in the Barrens, and assuming a reasonable running speed, one can estimate the distance between two known points. By measuring the same distance on a wall map of Azeroth it looks like the Azeroth's land masses total around 50-60 square miles. This is very rough, but the calculations below show the estimated values.

    Average time to run from Crossroads north to the next signpost = 72.5 seconds = 1.208 minutes = .0201 hours. Assuming the running speed of a 6 minute mile implies 10 miles/hr. Multiply the two and you get the distance between the two signposts is .201 miles. Big assumption here is 6 minute mile for a Wow runner.

    Now using the wall map the map distance is 11/16 in. .201 miles / .6875 inches = 0.293 miles per inch. [If you use 1/3 scale it would imply a 5.25 minute mile. So maybe 1/3 is right rather than 0.293]

    The next step is where I could use some help. The size of Kalimdor on the map is around 10 inches by 25 inches. Converting this to 250 square inches to square miles (divide by 9) and get around 28 square miles. Double that for the Eastern Kingdoms to get a 50-60 square miles estimate.

    FYI the Earth is around 148.94 million sq km (or 57.5 million square miles). So it would take 1 million Azeroth's to equal the size of the Earth.

     

    Still, TESO can't be viewed as a monster game with exploration out the wazoo.  Evern if it's 2 times bigger than approximations, that is STILL small compared to a single WoW Vanilla continent, and someone would have to roll every faction just to see the "world", because 3 factions + 1 pvp zone cuts the game in fourths.

     

    Something as small as Cyrodiil is not really MMORPG material.  It needs to be bigger.

     

     

    Well looking at that teso will be around the size of wow per faction then surely? Cyrodiil is 16 miles and each faction gets access to that plus 3 other provinces, that would be 64 square miles per faction, granted we wont be getting access to 100% of each area, its confirmed some is held back but we also know that cyrodiil is much smaller than previous tes titles.

     

    Not saying we will get a vanilla wow size map per faction, but i dont think the size difference is going to be that great

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