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POLL: The MMO Conundrum

AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member

You want to make an MMO. You start a company with other people's money since you did not win the lottery.

Now you have 2 choices with varying risks.
1) Make an old time MMO. (Not as popular, but may have longevity)
2) Make a new-age MMO. (More popular, but may be short lived)

Which path do you go down?

(Let's not go down the buzzword paths of "innovative", "new", "revolutionary" and the like. Remember, you have investors to answer to.)

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

«13

Comments

  • greenreengreenreen Punchoo, AKPosts: 2,101Member Uncommon
    I chose old. If it were my money it's one thing to risk it. If it's someone elses then I feel more accountable for getting them a profit. With that profit then I could leverage my own project and do whichever I liked the second time with the things I learned from the first one.
  • vgamervgamer Texas, IAPosts: 195Member
    Let's be honest. If money is on the line, I would also follow the quick cash grab method as many companies did.
  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    The problem is, in the modern MMO world, very few MMOs are going to have much longevity, just making an old-style MMO isn't going to guarantee people will stick around.  I'd much rather have an MMO that is popular, makes a lot of money up front to cover development costs, and if it goes on for a while, great.  If not, then you can move on to another project.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
    Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
    Now Playing: None
    Hope: None

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,854Member Uncommon
    Just because a title gains popularity for short time but fizzles doesn't mean it was planned that way as a cash grab. There are probably some "B rate" MMOs that have done this but the handful of AAA MMOs to release the past few years have not, well intentionally.

    Me? In this market if I was to spend the same money I would focus on a smaller group of players that I intended to keep. A steady stream of less money is easier to forecast than explosive front end money.
  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member

    First order of business: survival.  As long as that's in doubt, I swallow my pride and do whatever the money wants.   Once I have food, shelter, cat and computer, I can dig my heels in, say "this is what I want to do" and if someone wants to fund it, great, otherwise I happily putter away in obscurity.

    (at least that's the theory)

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    It is pure speculation to say that an old school MMO would still have longevity in today's market. These games do not exist in a vacuum.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by Quirhid
    It is pure speculation to say that an old school MMO would still have longevity in today's market. These games do not exist in a vacuum.
    Well, seeing as the new-age MMOs seem to appeal to players who game jump often, longevity is usually not what new-age MMOs appear to want. They don't build their games for longevity, unless a player enjoys endless, meaningless gear grinds, raids that don't change from one run to the next, PvP for what ever reason the game decides to dictate, and daily quests.

    Old school MMOs, those bore-fests you hate so much, actually cultivated longevity. When TSW, GW2, Rift, Tera, AA, SW:TOR and the rest hit 10+ years of being around, I may change my tune. UO is still around - 15(?) years running. EQ is still kicking - 13(?) years running. I count 16 games listed on this site still up and running since before the new millennium. That is about 16 games running for over 12 years each.

    Like I said, maybe time will tell a different story, but for now, I like my assumption :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,923Member Uncommon

    Voted old.  But not for the longevity.

     

    New school games are in a market with intense competition.  There's already hundreds of them, with more lining up with intent to pull playerbase from other games.

     

    A well made old school game has limited competition in the market.  True the pool of players who would like such a game is smaller, but competition is in my understanding dispoproportionately less*.  Even if the game would flash and fizzle, the brief market advantage at release could produce return on investment.

     

    Longevity if it happens, is just a bonus.

     

    * = for illustration of this point, name all school games released in the last five years.  It's a very short list.

     


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by XAPGames
    Voted old.  But not for the longevity.New school games are in a market with intense competition.  There's already hundreds of them, with more lining up with intent to pull playerbase from other games.A well made old school game has limited competition in the market.  True the pool of players who would like such a game is smaller, but competition is in my understanding dispoproportionately less*.  Even if the game would flash and fizzle, the brief market advantage at release could produce return on investment.Longevity if it happens, is just a bonus.* = for illustration of this point, name all school games released in the last five years.  It's a very short list.
    That's an interesting take on it :) Aiming for a neglected market share is a good way to see some return on an investment.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • erictlewiserictlewis Cottondale, ALPosts: 3,026Member Uncommon

    we just had so many mmo as of late that got over hyped then died off.  We need to get back to the roots of what mmo's good.  

    Instead of the devs just going for a money grab. 

     

  • ZorgoZorgo Deepintheheartof, TXPosts: 2,226Member

    What if I want to make a new age mmo which has longevity?

     

  • NeanderthalNeanderthal Posts: 1,606Member Uncommon

    I'd make a innovative, new MMO with revolutionary new elements!

    ....or at least that's what I'd tell all you suckers.

    At this point in mmorpg history I'd probably hype it up as buy-to-play with no subscription fee.  Because let's be honest here, it's not going to last more than a few months anyway and box sales are what I'm really going for.  Of course I'd also have micro-transations to milk any poor dumb bastards who stick with the game but I wouldn't say much about that except to poo-poo any fears anyone brings up about it.

    The actual gameplay doesn't really matter.  Slap some half-assed crap together and tell everyone it's going to be the greatest thing since sliced bread and by the time they figure out it's not....it's too late, I already have their money.

    Sure a lot of people will bitch about it but why should I care?  I'll start quietly working on my next game while I wait for the dust to settle and by the time I'm ready to start hyping up my next one most of you morons will have forgetton what I did to you.

  • LarsaLarsa NurembergPosts: 990Member
    Originally posted by Neanderthal

    I'd make a innovative, new MMO with revolutionary new elements!

    ....or at least that's what I'd tell all you suckers.

    At this point in mmorpg history I'd probably hype it up as buy-to-play with no subscription fee.  Because let's be honest here, it's not going to last more than a few months anyway and box sales are what I'm really going for.  Of course I'd also have micro-transations to milk any poor dumb bastards who stick with the game but I wouldn't say much about that except to poo-poo any fears anyone brings up about it.

    The actual gameplay doesn't really matter.  Slap some half-assed crap together and tell everyone it's going to be the greatest thing since sliced bread and by the time they figure out it's not....it's too late, I already have their money.

    Sure a lot of people will bitch about it but why should I care?  I'll start quietly working on my next game while I wait for the dust to settle and by the time I'm ready to start hyping up my next one most of you morons will have forgetton what I did to you.

    You could call it "Guild Wars: The Old Republic"! Millions will buy it!

    image

    I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,670Member Uncommon
    I chose new but I disagree with your longevity assessments as the newer MMOs haven't had a chance to prove their longevity. 

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • Paradigm68Paradigm68 New York, NYPosts: 884Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    You want to make an MMO. You start a company with other people's money since you did not win the lottery.

    Now you have 2 choices with varying risks.
    1) Make an old time MMO. (Not as popular, but may have longevity)
    2) Make a new-age MMO. (More popular, but may be short lived)

    Which path do you go down?

    (Let's not go down the buzzword paths of "innovative", "new", "revolutionary" and the like. Remember, you have investors to answer to.)

    Whats my motivation, make a great game or make money?

  • Paradigm68Paradigm68 New York, NYPosts: 884Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    I chose new but I disagree with your longevity assessments as the newer MMOs haven't had a chance to prove their longevity. 

    They keep shutting down or going f2p before we can asses their longevity image

  • LithuanianLithuanian vilniusPosts: 206Member Uncommon

    Depends on how do we describe "old time MMO" and "new time MMO". Is Lotro, WoW - new time MMOs? Or is Istaria old-time MMO?

    In this situation (if I am to answer to investors), I would go for almost any MMO that could make money. I think, there is high probability users would buy (subscirbe, cash-shop) something innovative, something new.

    Voted "new time", though it would be nice if OP explains what imn his eyes new and old time MMOs means.

  • FelixMajorFelixMajor London, ONPosts: 576Member

    I would focus on a core group of gamers, which would most likely end up being a small niche group.  With longevity in mind, I would try and keep them happy, because I realize I can't do everything well and can't make everyone happy.

     

    That's also in the same world as the rainbow shitting unicorns!

    Originally posted by Arskaaa
    "when players learned tacticks in dungeon/raids, its bread".

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    I chose new but I disagree with your longevity assessments as the newer MMOs haven't had a chance to prove their longevity. 
    I am basing that on the usual play a new game for 3-6 months and then move on cycle that many players seem to follow. Yes, there is usually a core base of players that stick with a game past this and I agree time will tell.

    New games have a player at max level in short order compared to older games that took literally years to get to the top tier of the game. This is good for end-game people, but new games don't seem to offer much to keep end-gamers playing for very long.

    My whole assumption could be wrong in that most players may NOT be looking for years of playing the same MMO. Perhaps to them, 2-6 months is plenty long for them. Maybe that is the goal of new games as well. I don't know. I certainly hope it is not the new way of thinking, but I could very definitely be wrong.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by Zorgo
    What if I want to make a new age mmo which has longevity?
    I would really like to see this game :)

    For me, new-age MMOs are what narriusseldon likes to point out:
    Lobby based instanced raid/PvP games.
    The games that have lost the MMO feel to them. The ones that many players now find borefests.

    I really would like to a your new-age MMO with longevity :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by Paradigm68

    Originally posted by AlBQuirky
    You want to make an MMO. You start a company with other people's money since you did not win the lottery.Now you have 2 choices with varying risks.
    1) Make an old time MMO. (Not as popular, but may have longevity)
    2) Make a new-age MMO. (More popular, but may be short lived)Which path do you go down?(Let's not go down the buzzword paths of "innovative", "new", "revolutionary" and the like. Remember, you have investors to answer to.)

    Whats my motivation, make a great game or make money?
    That's the conundrum, isn't it?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member

    Most of the old school mmos only had 200-400k subs. We like to think they were great and will outlive all these crappy new mmos but, these crappy new mmos still retain more people than they ever had long after the game hoppers move on.

    A failure to gamers in todays market is still far beyond anything the only devs even dreamed of. The best way to " make money " is appeal to the asian market. North Americans have way higher standards and game jump any time something new comes along. Even if you did make an old style mmo it would suffer the same fate. The next new big thing would take most of your subs.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by Lithuanian
    Depends on how do we describe "old time MMO" and "new time MMO". Is Lotro, WoW - new time MMOs? Or is Istaria old-time MMO?In this situation (if I am to answer to investors), I would go for almost any MMO that could make money. I think, there is high probability users would buy (subscirbe, cash-shop) something innovative, something new.Voted "new time", though it would be nice if OP explains what imn his eyes new and old time MMOs means.
    That's a good point and I will try my best to describe what I mean by "Old Time" and "New Age" MMOs.

    Very generally speaking...
    Old Time
    "You're in our world now." EQ's famous marketing line. Old time MMOs, in my opinion, had worlds where players made their fun in many varied different ways. There were no epic stories with a definite end to them. End-Game was not even a concept. Instances were hardly ever used. Leveling took time. Time that encouraged sociable aspects to MMOs.

    New-Age
    Games that have players reaching max level in a matter of weeks (2 months, maybe) "and then the real game begins." These games are all about the end-game, not the journey. Many times they have epic stories that have an epic ending. Instances are heavily used to "keep things fair" and facilitate the epic stories so they don't interfere with the other players.

    I hope that helps a little bit about how I am differentiating between the two.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Most of the old school mmos only had 200-400k subs. We like to think they were great and will outlive all these crappy new mmos but, these crappy new mmos still retain more people than they ever had long after the game hoppers move on.A failure to gamers in todays market is still far beyond anything the only devs even dreamed of. The best way to " make money " is appeal to the asian market. North Americans have way higher standards and game jump any time something new comes along. Even if you did make an old style mmo it would suffer the same fate. The next new big thing would take most of your subs.
    Good points. Old time MMOs did have numbers in the hundreds of thousands (if they were lucky) with not much for competition.

    However, WoW holds onto their numbers because players have invested in their characters. Many have played for over 5 years because why start anew when they have invested so much time in their current MMO? They have guilds and friends they have made through the game. A lot of WoW players leave and try the new games coming out and many of them keep returning to WoW. For all the negatives associated with WoW, it is still top dog. (And I really dislike using it as an example :) )

    My point being: Think of building an old-time MMO world with the influx of new players to MMOs and I wonder what would become of that MMO.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

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