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A day and night cycle makes mmos feel more alive. Also no more on rails themeparks!

evemaster00evemaster00 LondonPosts: 171Member

UO had a day/night cycle, Everquest did. I believe even DaoC did? Why is it all the old classics used day and night cycles yet most mmos today don't bother with it?

I wonder if it's because WoW doesn't have one, and wow is supposedly popular, so developers stopped thinking it mattered. I played UO, EQ, and DaoC, and I felt a stronger connection with these games and played these games for far longer than any other mmo i've played. (Except for EVE online, which i've also played for a very long time).

I guess all of the above mmos have one primary thing in common - they are not story driven themeparks. I don't know if EQ is now or not, I haven't played it for a decade. EVE is tthe only one without a day/night cycle, but that's a mute point because EVE takes places in space.

I think now I realize what makes me feel so bored with WoW that i can't stand playing it. It was the first MMO that I know off that sent you down a predetermined path from the start of the game to the very end through a on rails questing system. Que Blizzards constant boasts of subscription numbers, everyone tried to copy them  = Blizzard ruined mmos.

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Comments

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Wow has a night and day cycle.

    Swtor hasn't, but its not the only thing that makes it unimersive. Cloned npcs, lack of critters, corridory design, heavy instancing etc..
  • evemaster00evemaster00 LondonPosts: 171Member
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Wow has a night and day cycle.

    Swtor hasn't, but its not the only thing that makes it unimersive. Cloned npcs, lack of critters, corridory design, heavy instancing etc..

    Oh, I guess I didn't really pay attention to the day/night cycle in WoW. I suppose all that on rails questing gave me little reason to pay much attention to those sort of details. I probably noticed at the time, but every time I've tried WoW it just bores me to death for some reason.

    SWTOR barely even feels like an mmo, I like online worlds, as in, OPEN WORLD. SWTOR feels like the opposite of this.

     

    I really believe the main reason WoW was so successful was the level of the polish, not really the style of the game specifically but the fact that the game is so well made compared to many other mmos.

    WoW also has a ton of progression, without progression, people get bored and quit.

  • TorgrimTorgrim GothenburgPosts: 2,088Member
    Most MMOs have day and night cycle.

    If it's not broken, you are not innovating.

  • NibsNibs .Posts: 216Member Uncommon

    Whilst WoW does have a day/night cycle (a real time 24 hour cycle synced to the server time) they decided that the time of day shouldn't actually make any difference. The sky changes colour but there is no change in visibility at all.

     

    Due to the real 24 hour a lot people never get to see it change. If your play hours are normally dark in real life, then they will be dark in WoW too.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Got to disagree with you there too, wow was anything but polished at launch, was a very buggy game. Not Aoc bad but worse than say war in the bug department.
  • dave6660dave6660 New York, NYPosts: 2,543Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Torgrim
    Most MMOs have day and night cycle.

    Yes but how many of them actually utilitize it for something other than aesthetics?

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
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  • jimdandy26jimdandy26 salem, ORPosts: 527Member
    Originally posted by dave6660
    Originally posted by Torgrim
    Most MMOs have day and night cycle.

    Yes but how many of them actually utilitize it for something other than aesthetics?

    I disagree that many even want it for anything past aesthetics, and only notice it due to the uncanny valley effect. WoW for example used to be quite a bit darker, and that was changed to lighter. Look at the complaining in games like Firefall, that has a very dark nightime. Wasn't the torch requirement removed from Eq2 even during nightime that existed in Eq? This is a large part of the reason why developers should stop actually listening to much of player feedback. Look what its done to Resident Evil for example.

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  • PsychowPsychow SF Giants Territory, CAPosts: 1,784Member
    Originally posted by evemaster00

    UO had a day/night cycle, Everquest did. I believe even DaoC did? Why is it all the old classics used day and night cycles yet most mmos today don't bother with it?

    I wonder if it's because WoW doesn't have one, and wow is supposedly popular, so developers stopped thinking it mattered. I played UO, EQ, and DaoC, and I felt a stronger connection with these games and played these games for far longer than any other mmo i've played. (Except for EVE online, which i've also played for a very long time).

    I guess all of the above mmos have one primary thing in common - they are not story driven themeparks. I don't know if EQ is now or not, I haven't played it for a decade. EVE is tthe only one without a day/night cycle, but that's a mute point because EVE takes places in space.

    I think now I realize what makes me feel so bored with WoW that i can't stand playing it. It was the first MMO that I know off that sent you down a predetermined path from the start of the game to the very end through a on rails questing system. Que Blizzards constant boasts of subscription numbers, everyone tried to copy them  = Blizzard ruined mmos.

     

    You're right. Without stupid Blizzard / WoW the MMO genre would be basking in it's 500K membership of awesomness with only a few released games. It'd have beeen amazing!! Damn you Blizzard!!

  • TorgrimTorgrim GothenburgPosts: 2,088Member
    Originally posted by dave6660
    Originally posted by Torgrim
    Most MMOs have day and night cycle.

    Yes but how many of them actually utilitize it for something other than aesthetics?

    Not sure what you mean, care to explain alittle more?

    This is what I mean by day and night Cycle

    Vanguard: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6uO6ICWr3A

    LOTRO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKva-iNScf8

    GW2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oj2Ghwc7br0

    If it's not broken, you are not innovating.

  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 3,742Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by dave6660
    Originally posted by Torgrim
    Most MMOs have day and night cycle.

    Yes but how many of them actually utilitize it for something other than aesthetics?

          EQ was the only one I remember where the night/day cycle really mattered...There were certain zones where you didn't want to be at night for example......

  • JemcrystalJemcrystal Champaign, ILPosts: 1,551Member Uncommon
    Mabinogi has day and night and weekly cycles that affect game play.  FFXI was anal with them.  Just remembered DDO had them also.  I got some very pretty pictures from that game.  Love looking up at the stars at night.

  • Goatgod76Goatgod76 Stow, OHPosts: 1,214Member
    Originally posted by Psychow
     

     

    You're right. Without stupid Blizzard / WoW the MMO genre would be basking in it's 500K membership of awesomness with only a few released games. It'd have beeen amazing!! Damn you Blizzard!!

    I'd be perfectly happy with 500k or less sub numbers. Because some of us realize a MMORPG's success isn't based on sub numbers, but longetivity (I.E. See EQ/UO).

     

    Agree Day and Night cycles do help with immersion. Would be great to see them last longer...say, maybe 6 actually hour incriments of more.

     

    Make night time just that...night time. Lower visibility...maybe even areas that require torchlight or magic to see (Especially in caves/Dungeons). Add aesthetic features to night...such as creatures that only appear at night, or more frequently at night (I.E. Owls, wolves, etc.). Be neat to see an MMORPG that actually adds moon cycles like Full/Half/Quarter/New moon....shooting stars, aurora borealis, etc.

    Reaching here...but day time weather cycles with more to it would be a nice touch as well. Puddles that gather during rain storms. Thunder/Lightining, blizzards that impede on visibility, fog....

  • L0C0ManL0C0Man Puerto OrdazPosts: 1,065Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by dave6660
    Originally posted by Torgrim
    Most MMOs have day and night cycle.

    Yes but how many of them actually utilitize it for something other than aesthetics?

    I do remember at least one quest in Age of Conan that used it, a dead woman was being seen walking around at midnight around a near cemetery, you had to wait until around midnight gametime to find it. IIRC 1 real day = 4 game days, and the woman spawned at her grave at around 11 pm gametime, walked around a certain area, and went back to the grave and dissapeared at 1 am gametime (about 30 minutes of real time).

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  • Goatgod76Goatgod76 Stow, OHPosts: 1,214Member
    Originally posted by L0C0Man
    Originally posted by dave6660
    Originally posted by Torgrim
    Most MMOs have day and night cycle.

    Yes but how many of them actually utilitize it for something other than aesthetics?

    I do remember at least one quest in Age of Conan that used it, a dead woman was being seen walking around at midnight around a near cemetery, you had to wait until around midnight gametime to find it. IIRC 1 real day = 4 game days, and the woman spawned at her grave at around 11 pm gametime, walked around a certain area, and went back to the grave and dissapeared at 1 am gametime (about 30 minutes of real time).

    Vanguard: Saga of Heroes also has many quests that are day time or night time specific.

  • ArclanArclan Chicago, ILPosts: 1,494Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Theocritus

    Originally posted by dave6660

    Originally posted by Torgrim Most MMOs have day and night cycle.
    Yes but how many of them actually utilitize it for something other than aesthetics?
          EQ was the only one I remember where the night/day cycle really mattered...There were certain zones where you didn't want to be at night for example......

    Exactly. EQ back in the day had a true night. You were presented with a black/blank screen unless a light source was nearby. Fairly terrifying, yet immersive. This was one of the first things cut when the dumbing down of the genre began after the turn of millenium.

    I'm told EQ Mac (Al Kabor server) still has the original day/night cycle. /drool.

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  • hraethhraeth Hillsboro, ORPosts: 34Member
    I also miss the EQ style day/night cycle where a light source was required at night (and deep in caves, unlit passages, etc).  It's one of the things on my wishlist for upcoming MMO's.  I understand that there is a demographic for games that are always lit.  There are plenty of people who want a game where the point of the game is to go out and kill X number of mobs for Y NPC who want the game to be tailored to let them go do such quests without anything else getting in the way.  That demographic is pretty much taken care of with the games that are out there now.  It would be nice to see a game for my demographic... People who WANT the game dynamics to be problematic.  I WANT to wait until day before traveling through Kithicor (cause that place was SCARY at night).  I want to get lost in the dark if I don't bring a light source along.  I believe there are enough other people who want this that we may see some of those old RPGesque features brough back into the MMORPG.  In the mean time I'll play these MMOQTBs.  (MMO Quest 'til Bored) image
  • RefMinorRefMinor MyTownPosts: 3,452Member
    Originally posted by Goatgod76 

    Reaching here...but day time weather cycles with more to it would be a nice touch as well. Puddles that gather during rain storms. Thunder/Lightining, blizzards that impede on visibility, fog....

    Sandstorms at night on Tatooine in SWG were awesome.

  • SlampigSlampig Chantilly, VAPosts: 2,376Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by evemaster00

    UO had a day/night cycle, Everquest did. I believe even DaoC did? Why is it all the old classics used day and night cycles yet most mmos today don't bother with it?

    I wonder if it's because WoW doesn't have one, and wow is supposedly popular, so developers stopped thinking it mattered. I played UO, EQ, and DaoC, and I felt a stronger connection with these games and played these games for far longer than any other mmo i've played. (Except for EVE online, which i've also played for a very long time).

    I guess all of the above mmos have one primary thing in common - they are not story driven themeparks. I don't know if EQ is now or not, I haven't played it for a decade. EVE is tthe only one without a day/night cycle, but that's a mute point because EVE takes places in space.

    I think now I realize what makes me feel so bored with WoW that i can't stand playing it. It was the first MMO that I know off that sent you down a predetermined path from the start of the game to the very end through a on rails questing system. Que Blizzards constant boasts of subscription numbers, everyone tried to copy them  = Blizzard ruined mmos.


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  • madazzmadazz A town, ONPosts: 1,564Member Uncommon
    According to a newbie programmer know-it-all in another thread, incorporating these kind of things from older games is more difficult now than it was then.
  • Kaisen_DexxKaisen_Dexx Lee''s Summit, MOPosts: 285Member Uncommon
    I remember when I first started playing Dragon's Dogma. I was amazed and invigorated by the limited carrying capacity, and the real sense of danger just travelling had (especially at night). Unfortunately, later on, you became powerful and supplied enough that the world became almost trivial, with the exception of a few bosses. The sad part about that is the fans (and later the developers) have decided that the answer to that was Fast Travel, as opposed to fixing the root of the problem. And it sounds like the next game in the series will feature fast travel. That severely disappoints me, especially because it parallels what I saw happen with the MMORPG genre. As opposed to figuring out why said mechanic was broken or boring, they created systems to streamline and bypass those mechanics. This removed a lot of potential complexity and layered gameplay elements that has created the feeling of staleness and stagnation.

     

    A prime example of this is the evolution of questing. Camping mobs in EverQuest got boring after awhile, and instead of finding ways to improve the combat experience, the next game added linear quest-lines to give focus to the players and attempt to keep them engaged doing the same boring thing. Turns out, that got repetitve and boring after awhile. The next step was merely ramping up the experience gain to streamline progression and attempt to keep people interested. This streamlined effect is fairly noticible nowadays when you look at the circular zone design EverQuest had and contrast it to more modern MMOs, where it is literally point A to point B to point C, etc.

     

    I'd love to see more gameplay layers return to the MMORPG. I'd love to see very limited carrying capacity, where it is essential that you carry supplies such as a torch, or food and water, where running out of supplies would have dire effects on your gaming experience. I'd love to see parties less about using renewable resources such as mana for restoration, and have to share consumables as the need arises. In short, I'd love to see more to MMOs than just avoiding red circles on the ground.

  • AmatheAmathe Miami, FLPosts: 1,658Member Uncommon

    Not only did EQ have day/night cycles AND weather, but, depending on whether it was day or night, different monsters may be out and about in some zones.

     

    I loved this.  It definitely made the world seem more like a world, and it was cool.  But I suppose Devs scrap it for the same reason all the water in the new mmo worlds is 6 inches deep, even the oceans.  They are cheap.  They are lazy.  And they wouldn't know fun if it bit them in the ass.  

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member

    Lack of onrails themeparks. Yeah, unfourtunately that is what a lot of us are hoping for but for some reason the devs are keep pushing out that very thing. I guess it is just more profitable to create a shortlived ThemePark rather than a solid sandbox which retains more people.

    What we need is one big sandbox which proves that you can create a profitable triple A sandbox title. And no, Eve is not it. Spaceship/spreadsheet, FFA PvP where you are a ship will never attract a large selection of people. Not that 400k subs is bad but considering the total MMO playerbase is 10-15 million, it is not a very big part, and a lot of people in Eve have multiple accounts. More so than in other MMOs.

  • KilmaulKilmaul Corning, NYPosts: 38Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Amathe

    Not only did EQ have day/night cycles AND weather, but, depending on whether it was day or night, different monsters may be out and about in some zones.

     

    I loved this.  It definitely made the world seem more like a world, and it was cool.  But I suppose Devs scrap it for the same reason all the water in the new mmo worlds is 6 inches deep, even the oceans.  They are cheap.  They are lazy.  And they wouldn't know fun if it bit them in the ass.  

    Yeah Kithicor Forest or something.  Anyone could run through during the day without hassle.  At night you better have a SoW and stick to the edge of the zone.  Good times lol.  :D

  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member
    Originally posted by Kaisen_Dexx
    I remember when I first started playing Dragon's Dogma. I was amazed and invigorated by the limited carrying capacity, and the real sense of danger just travelling had (especially at night). Unfortunately, later on, you became powerful and supplied enough that the world became almost trivial, with the exception of a few bosses. The sad part about that is the fans (and later the developers) have decided that the answer to that was Fast Travel, as opposed to fixing the root of the problem. And it sounds like the next game in the series will feature fast travel. That severely disappoints me, especially because it parallels what I saw happen with the MMORPG genre. As opposed to figuring out why said mechanic was broken or boring, they created systems to streamline and bypass those mechanics. This removed a lot of potential complexity and layered gameplay elements that has created the feeling of staleness and stagnation.

     

    A prime example of this is the evolution of questing. Camping mobs in EverQuest got boring after awhile, and instead of finding ways to improve the combat experience, the next game added linear quest-lines to give focus to the players and attempt to keep them engaged doing the same boring thing. Turns out, that got repetitve and boring after awhile. The next step was merely ramping up the experience gain to streamline progression and attempt to keep people interested. This streamlined effect is fairly noticible nowadays when you look at the circular zone design EverQuest had and contrast it to more modern MMOs, where it is literally point A to point B to point C, etc.

     

    I'd love to see more gameplay layers return to the MMORPG. I'd love to see very limited carrying capacity, where it is essential that you carry supplies such as a torch, or food and water, where running out of supplies would have dire effects on your gaming experience. I'd love to see parties less about using renewable resources such as mana for restoration, and have to share consumables as the need arises. In short, I'd love to see more to MMOs than just avoiding red circles on the ground.

    What you are talking about is virtual world MMOs and those are, unfourtunately, more or less extinct. You got some indy-devs creating sub-par virtual world MMOs but those are just simply bad.

    Quest hubs, as main source of advancing your character, is the main "feature" which dealt the main blow to virtual worlds. Instead of exploring and adventuring to advance your character you simply go to NPC with glowie on head and then go to glowies on map, completely by-passing exploration and adventuring.

    GW 2, instead of getting rid of that, simply made the quest hubs mobile and not needing to click on glowie to get the quest but everything else is pretty much the same. It is cleverly hiding the quest hub but it is still there, just disguised and called "dynamic" quests.

    I think the genre has reached a dead end and instead of going back and finding another way, it is just keep bumping their heads into the dead end, which are meaningless quests, and finding new ways of giving you meaningless quests.

    The concept of creating a virtual world where you need to explore and find your place in it and figure out how to be successful is, I guess, considered a failed model by triple A devs. Why I am not sure but I guess they didnt feel SWG, EQ 1, AC and UO were profitable enough. They seem to go more for a model where they have big initial sales, like non MMOs, and then some bonus profit from a few months of subs. and/or selling trinkets in the cash shop.

    The genre has become big bussiness and there is apparently no big bussiness in virtual world MMOs...

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon
    I miss the day/night cycles..   Not the real time cycle that WoW does, but something similar to what EQ did... I want to experience multiple days and nights while playing.. Furthermore the difference between day night need to be severe, not just a small tone change..  I love how EQ racials made a difference in sight.. Oh well, that was the good ole days..
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