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What would you like to see for end game content ?

Tindale111Tindale111 croydonPosts: 197Member
Ive seen many jaded players in the forums most complain about end lvl content myself included and have been racking my brains to think of a solution most mmos have raids for high end gear or pvp but a lot of people dont have time for raids or they are not at sutible times or days,the game i keep going back to is EQ2 because i can lvl my guild or make my house a mess crafting is also good and im guessing a lot of people return to chat with friends etc i did think permadeath was good but keep having to do the same old zones over again becomes repetative .I think most of us are pretty hard on games we expect a lot and often dosnt meet our expectations so id like to hear what players would like that would keep them coming back for more thanks for reading and i apologise for my gramma
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Comments

  • OnomasOnomas Rock Hill, SCPosts: 1,128Member Uncommon

    Should never be any "end game" in a mmorpg. Why i prefer sandboxes over themepark. Im not saying which is better, just the fact i got tired of games forcing you to do this and that. Run dailies, warzones, raids over and over to get end game gear is just boring and not "fun" and provides no "story" that so many themepark lovers want so bad. Your story last 1 month then you are back to doing the same old stuff. I want a choice, to be able to do what i want when i want, not have a set path, to be able to juggle my fun over many aspects of a mmorpg nt led around on a leash.

     

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,455Member Uncommon

    There shouldn't be "end game content" there should just be "content".

    By creating "end game content" especially since it can be some of the most challenging content that players will repeat ad nauseum, it more often than not supercedes what has gone before. Almost as if the leveling was "all that crap you have to do to get to the good stuff".

    if that is truly the case then why have the "before" content other than to delay "end game".

    There should just be "content". You want to be a crafter? Maybe even (someday) a master crafter? Start that as soon as possible. You want to take over land mass? start asap and continuallyi grow strong as others try to grow stronger and take what you have from you. You want to lead an empire? Start asap and spend ALL your game time trying to maintain and grow it.

    Raids should be tied into the world on a meaningful level. If there is "some big bad" that is out there then that "big bad" should be able to effect the world in a negative way. Taking it out should be difficult, require planning and perhaps something where  more players than less are involved. Heck, a "raid" could also be a NPC invasion of a city where, if the players don't win, they lose the city. Then the next "raid" is actually liberating the city. And of the groups who liberate the city, do they hand over control to the current ruler or do they fight among themselves for control?

     

  • darkhalf357xdarkhalf357x Brooklyn, NYPosts: 1,164Member Uncommon
    How about the dissolution of 'end game'   I shouldnt have to do 'something' to reach content I should be able to access from when I start.  Its part of the problem.

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  • birdycephonbirdycephon Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 1,314Member
    Personally I would like to do away with endgame instance runs and have some sort or replayable content, sort of like prestige mode in MW2 or something, but cooler.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Infinite random dungeons.

    randomized loot.

    may be some large scale pvp.

    or ... expansions upon expansions.

  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,058Member Uncommon

    First Endgame should come way after character creation, like 6 months to a year of character progression and leveling but in a sense it would be nice if endgame can be accessed fairly early in the players life.  Upon reaching level cap, the game should support enough content to keep the players happy, things like:

    • Open World PvP (consensual)
    • Deep character progression (See Luminance, Aetheria & Augmentation Gems in Asherons Call)
    • Huge world to explore
    • Long detailed quests to undertake, which revolves around tacking several dungeons and aquiring different items

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,668Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    There shouldn't be "end game content" there should just be "content".

    Agreed, unfortunately that's as much about changing existing warped player perception as it is about changing game design.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,211Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    There shouldn't be "end game content" there should just be "content".

    Agreed, unfortunately that's as much about changing existing warped player perception as it is about changing game design.

    I agree with both of you.  It's not an easily solved problem from either perspective.

    Lineage had an "end game" in that you could get to level cap and that was "end game", but it just meant you could do more difficult content and bosses with fewer people thus a larger split of the rewards and it meant you were more formidible in pvp.  They rarely had a problem because the xp curve was hellacious and there was xp loss when you were "ended" (died).

    The older systems avoided this problem because they had horrible grind.  Solving the horrible grind problem (faster leveling) that so many whined about was the major factor, if not the cause, of the end game problem.

    The piper has to be paid one way or the other.  Do you have very slow leveling (and I mean skill system leveling too, not just classic character levels) and a smooth long curve or do you offer a fast curve and repetition at level cap?  Does an auto-mentoring system like in GW2 offer some sort of solution or possible alternative to the problem?

    How can the issue be addressed?

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,919Member Uncommon

    Endgame for me?  Dungeons: 5, 10, 20, and 40 mans but with very minor gear stat rewards (no uber-leet gear at all).  Also no gating or gear score to get in the dungeons.  Tons of useful crafting.  Player housing that I can work on and show off... something insanely slow to do (nice house takes years of work).  Grinding for crafting mats.  Guild halls setup like player housing, but a nice place takes several dozen people's work over a couple years.  Dailies and assorted misc questy activities for those who enjoy that sort of thing.  Seasonal holiday events.


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • apocolusterapocoluster newport news, VAPosts: 1,321Member Uncommon

      The ablility to get the uber leet gear solo...maybe take 10 times a long and be 10 times as grindy. 

     

    dude who mentioned infinite random dungeons hit me in the happy place.  That would be awesome...would be awesome-er if I could do it solo  :)

    No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin

  • PurutzilPurutzil East Stroudsburg, PAPosts: 2,924Member Uncommon

    There are two 'end game' goals I'd like to see, so to speak. These exist in most cases seperate from one another (though I'll mention in the one how it can exist in unison as well).

     

    1.) End game Progression/raiding: This is one of my favorite things in an MMO that sadly feels like it is phased out. Progression has been basically stripped for 'everyone' to experience content and has greatly stripped away the feeling of accomplishment for going through older content. Progression really helped to feel like my effort slowly was rewarded and I gained strength as I played to the point I felt proud of what I had on my character, and as new content came out, sure I might not always be able to 'hit' the new content due to needing more gear, but it didn't bother me having to work towards it cause I know it was going to be there and my hard work would be paid off. Sure, there was glory for the first but even if I was the very last to do it, I could still feel pride for eventually reaching it.

     

    2.) Leveling... good luck hitting max: Basically, rather then hit the brick wall maxing your level, the game continues to have you level and that 'end' is very difficult/time consuming to reach. This type of system did wonders for games like Ragnarok Online where levels felt so rewarding and it felt great to hit the next level up. I never just 'sat' at a level for a endless period of time and I did my best to try and push to hit max, feeling my character really advantaced as I got higher.

     

    This can be applied with end game progression given its done like an AA system for everquest or the Rift Planar Attunement system. Its typically not as 'rewarding' so to speak often times giving smaller 'rewards' then a normal level but it still can be gratifying and promote me to play the game more.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by apocoluster

      The ablility to get the uber leet gear solo...maybe take 10 times a long and be 10 times as grindy. 

     

    dude who mentioned infinite random dungeons hit me in the happy place.  That would be awesome...would be awesome-er if I could do it solo  :)

    That would be me.

    I think infinite random dungeon is one of the most asked for feature for D3. In fact, it already have the random dungeon part .. just not infinite enough.

    I would also like infinite dungeon to get progressively more difficult. Kind of like an infinite number of monster level (with increasing loot, of course).

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,668Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    There shouldn't be "end game content" there should just be "content".

    Agreed, unfortunately that's as much about changing existing warped player perception as it is about changing game design.

    I agree with both of you.  It's not an easily solved problem from either perspective.

    Lineage had an "end game" in that you could get to level cap and that was "end game", but it just meant you could do more difficult content and bosses with fewer people thus a larger split of the rewards and it meant you were more formidible in pvp.  They rarely had a problem because the xp curve was hellacious and there was xp loss when you were "ended" (died).

    The older systems avoided this problem because they had horrible grind.  Solving the horrible grind problem (faster leveling) that so many whined about was the major factor, if not the cause, of the end game problem.

    The piper has to be paid one way or the other.  Do you have very slow leveling (and I mean skill system leveling too, not just classic character levels) and a smooth long curve or do you offer a fast curve and repetition at level cap?  Does an auto-mentoring system like in GW2 offer some sort of solution or possible alternative to the problem?

    How can the issue be addressed?

    Ultima Online, Puzzle Pirates and EVE Online are three examples of where it doesn't have to be addressed because the design of the game eliminates the problem.

    • When there is only one path, all roads lead to one set of content.
    • When the path is ramped up with high level disparity, the players avoid any outside content because they fall behind on the path to the set of content at the top.

    If there are multiple paths and level disparity is significantly reduced there is no need to be at the top. There are people in EVE that still mine, transport and sell the same minerals and goods they did before, expanding the areas, risk, quantity and social circles they do it in. Most EVE players never fly a mothership, nor do they have any interest in ever doing so. Conversely, there is no point in playing most other MMOs unless you intend to work toward getting to the 'endgame.'

    The low hanging fruit would be to make additional paths other than killing stuff to get to the next tier of stats/gear. Those additional paths can't be secondary. They need to be just as supported and rewarding as the killstuff path.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,668Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by apocoluster

      The ablility to get the uber leet gear solo...maybe take 10 times a long and be 10 times as grindy. 

    dude who mentioned infinite random dungeons hit me in the happy place.  That would be awesome...would be awesome-er if I could do it solo  :)

    You would have liked Dungeon Runners.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • birdycephonbirdycephon Salt Lake City, UTPosts: 1,314Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by apocoluster

      The ablility to get the uber leet gear solo...maybe take 10 times a long and be 10 times as grindy. 

     

    dude who mentioned infinite random dungeons hit me in the happy place.  That would be awesome...would be awesome-er if I could do it solo  :)

    That would be me.

    I think infinite random dungeon is one of the most asked for feature for D3. In fact, it already have the random dungeon part .. just not infinite enough.

    I would also like infinite dungeon to get progressively more difficult. Kind of like an infinite number of monster level (with increasing loot, of course).

    There is already a game like that, its called Torchlight.

  • dave6660dave6660 New York, NYPosts: 2,543Member Uncommon

    At "end game" I would like to see the credits rolling.

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • VhalnVhaln Chicago, ILPosts: 3,159Member

    To keep it as simple and straight forward as possible:

     

    Some sort of progression, with steeply diminishing returns to draw it out almost indefinately, and extra difficult content that gives you a reason to want to get stronger, even at the level cap.  Preferably not limited to a gear grind, but innate character improvement, more like realm abilities in DAOC.  Can be PvE or PvP, but ideally, both.

     

    Also, MUST be open world, not instanced.  At least the majority of it.  This might make it more of a zergfest, but it allows it to be a lot more all inclusive and casual friendly.  Just jump into the fray when you can, to be a part of something persistent and massive, rather than something that really doesn't matter to the game overall, because it's relegated to private instances.

     

    Sandbox content would be another way to go, housing, crafting that advances with housing (e.g. being able to tend a greenhouse for alchemy), accumulating wealth, becoming the lord of a keep, things like that.

    When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by birdycephon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by apocoluster

      The ablility to get the uber leet gear solo...maybe take 10 times a long and be 10 times as grindy. 

     

    dude who mentioned infinite random dungeons hit me in the happy place.  That would be awesome...would be awesome-er if I could do it solo  :)

    That would be me.

    I think infinite random dungeon is one of the most asked for feature for D3. In fact, it already have the random dungeon part .. just not infinite enough.

    I would also like infinite dungeon to get progressively more difficult. Kind of like an infinite number of monster level (with increasing loot, of course).

    There is already a game like that, its called Torchlight.

    Too bad TL is not MP, and that it has limited builds and abilities. Otherwise, i would play it more (and btw, i play TL & TL2 too).

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,919Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by apocoluster

      The ablility to get the uber leet gear solo...maybe take 10 times a long and be 10 times as grindy. 

    dude who mentioned infinite random dungeons hit me in the happy place.  That would be awesome...would be awesome-er if I could do it solo  :)

    You would have liked Dungeon Runners.

    Never understood why that closed.  Looked solid and well made.  Much better than some still running.

     


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • ObiClownobiObiClownobi CoruscantPosts: 186Member
    For me a good end game should start with character creation.

    image
    "It's a sandbox, if you are not willing to create a castle then all you have is sand" - jtcgs

  • Tindale111Tindale111 croydonPosts: 197Member
    yeah i might give eve another go only last time got ganked in first 15 mins hope theres some sort of outlaw system on their for blowing up noobs lol
  • MukeMuke BredaPosts: 2,172Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tindale111
    yeah i might give eve another go only last time got ganked in first 15 mins hope theres some sort of outlaw system on their for blowing up noobs lol

    don't make it worthwhile for me to blow you up or don't visit dangerous systems.

    "going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Either Nothing - No end game at all like eve

    It all end game like planetside

    I've never liked the transition from leveling game to end game, as end game was always more grindy and repetitive than the leveling game.

    With one exception - daoc. With that endgame was less grind than leveling game and more fun.
  • PsiKahnPsiKahn Woodside, NYPosts: 126Member
    Echo the posters who have said there should be no end-game.  It defies the very idea of a persistent world.
  • lostscout5lostscout5 patchogue, NYPosts: 57Member
    Originally posted by PsiKahn
    Echo the posters who have said there should be no end-game.  It defies the very idea of a persistent world.

    Thanks for putting that is words. I couldn't think how to say that. Brain fried at the moment. 

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