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would you play an mmo that you couldn't win?

eye_meye_m Notta Chance, ABPosts: 3,133Member Uncommon

Every mmo (at least that I've played) has gradually progressing content difficulty matched with gradually progressing gear/stat/ability making the content approximately the same sort of actual difficulty.  The PvE balance means that you have to be "roughly this good of a player" to be able to conquer the content. Raids or dungeons may push the envelope a bit, but they still have a designed mechanic on how to solve them.

 

What if the game (basic description only) had a series of checkpoints, that you progressed through with the content continually getting more difficult as you went along, until finally it was so extremely hard that people couldn't possibly finish.  So rather than completing content, it was more about how far you could push the content, but nobody ever reaches the "end". 

If the

 

So what do you think?

 

EDIT: I guess I should have done a better job explaining it. Think of it like a high jump. You might always be able to jump a little higher, so you never reach that point of completion, but every time you improve on where you made it to last time you still get a feeling of accomplishment.

 

EDIT EDIT:  Here is a better description of what I was thinking about.

 

The game plays like a warzone between NPC's and players. the more players join the map, the stronger the NPC's also get.

Anytime a player or NPC dies, they respawn immediately at their base and have to run back to the battle.

The NPC's are trying to take over the players base, and if left alone they will take over the entire map up to virtually the doorstep of the playerbase before being too spread out be effective at conquering the playerbase.

The players work from checkpoint to checkpoint, pushing back the NPC's in an attempt to drive them back to their base and take over. 

 As they get closer to the base the NPC respawn is virtually constant, and the base becomes impossible to take over. 

However, I think reaching the base would be a failed mechanic, and the battle should be a remarkable endeavor to make it 3/4 or even 1/2 way.

All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

Comments

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid hell, NJPosts: 6,757Member Uncommon
    i wouldnt buy it. MMO or single player, im a casual so if the game is designed to never being beaten then why even bother. I mean, MMORPGs should never being beaten, but not because the bosses are impossible to be killed. They should be horribly hard , with a workaround to beat it. Even better if they are so hard that you need to use your environment to your advantage, not just tank and spank.

    image
  • LuckshmiLuckshmi ManilaPosts: 74Member

    Same sentiments with the good sir above me.

     

     

    As long as I enjoy it and it keeps me busy, well why not.

    I never really focused on beating the game, esp if its MMO, Im more of a casual player.

  • eye_meye_m Notta Chance, ABPosts: 3,133Member Uncommon
    EDIT: added it to the original post.

    All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

    I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

    I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member

    I don't remember ever winning an MMO.

    ( let me clarify that - I generally play solo, so in almost every game, there are dungeons or raids aimed at teams that are beyond me, until some later date when I can outlevel them; so every game out there already feels like what you are suggesting to me ... and I have to admit I prefer it that way )

  • GreyfaceGreyface Detroit, MIPosts: 390Member
    Originally posted by eyelolled

    What if the game (basic description only) had a series of checkpoints, that you progressed through with the content continually getting more difficult as you went along, until finally it was so extremely hard that people couldn't possibly finish.  So rather than completing content, it was more about how far you could push the content, but nobody ever reaches the "end". 

    You just described what it's like to be a raid leader in a social guild. 

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    I am already playing such a game ... D3 (not a MMO).

    Unless you are like a top 1% player in the game, MP10 farming (and uber boss) is just impossible. And i keep pushing my MP level for more challenge every time i play. That includes getting new gear, and tweaking builds.

     

  • ObiClownobiObiClownobi CoruscantPosts: 186Member
    Originally posted by eyelolled

    Every mmo (at least that I've played) has gradually progressing content difficulty matched with gradually progressing gear/stat/ability making the content approximately the same sort of actual difficulty.  The PvE balance means that you have to be "roughly this good of a player" to be able to conquer the content. Raids or dungeons may push the envelope a bit, but they still have a designed mechanic on how to solve them.

     

    What if the game (basic description only) had a series of checkpoints, that you progressed through with the content continually getting more difficult as you went along, until finally it was so extremely hard that people couldn't possibly finish.  So rather than completing content, it was more about how far you could push the content, but nobody ever reaches the "end". 

     

    So what do you think?

     

    EDIT: I guess I should have done a better job explaining it. Think of it like a high jump. You might always be able to jump a little higher, so you never reach that point of completion, but every time you improve on where you made it to last time you still get a feeling of accomplishment.

     

    Tldr: like space invaders

    image
    "It's a sandbox, if you are not willing to create a castle then all you have is sand" - jtcgs

  • eye_meye_m Notta Chance, ABPosts: 3,133Member Uncommon

    improved the original description

     

    All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

    I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

    I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

  • CastillleCastillle KhobarPosts: 2,703Member Uncommon
    If its fun, sure.  Ive had a lot more fun losing at Pandemic  than I had fun at winning a bunch of other games.

    ''/\/\'' Posted using Iphone bunni
    ( o.o)
    (")(")
    **This bunny was cloned from bunnies belonging to Gobla and is part of the Quizzical Fanclub and the The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club**

  • Goatgod76Goatgod76 Stow, OHPosts: 1,214Member

    I voted yes because honestly I feel that is the way they were intended. EQ was called EVERquest for a reason. It has like 23+ expansions and is still adding content  a decade+ later. They are suppose to be nearly never ending adventures.

    People want something they can win...there is another genre for that I need not name.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,638Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by eyelolled

    Every mmo (at least that I've played) has gradually progressing content difficulty matched with gradually progressing gear/stat/ability making the content approximately the same sort of actual difficulty.  The PvE balance means that you have to be "roughly this good of a player" to be able to conquer the content. Raids or dungeons may push the envelope a bit, but they still have a designed mechanic on how to solve them.

     

    What if the game (basic description only) had a series of checkpoints, that you progressed through with the content continually getting more difficult as you went along, until finally it was so extremely hard that people couldn't possibly finish.  So rather than completing content, it was more about how far you could push the content, but nobody ever reaches the "end". 

    If the

     

    So what do you think?

     

    EDIT: I guess I should have done a better job explaining it. Think of it like a high jump. You might always be able to jump a little higher, so you never reach that point of completion, but every time you improve on where you made it to last time you still get a feeling of accomplishment.

     

    EDIT EDIT:  Here is a better description of what I was thinking about.

     

    The game plays like a warzone between NPC's and players. the more players join the map, the stronger the NPC's also get.

    Anytime a player or NPC dies, they respawn immediately at their base and have to run back to the battle.

    The NPC's are trying to take over the players base, and if left alone they will take over the entire map up to virtually the doorstep of the playerbase before being too spread out be effective at conquering the playerbase.

    The players work from checkpoint to checkpoint, pushing back the NPC's in an attempt to drive them back to their base and take over. 

     As they get closer to the base the NPC respawn is virtually constant, and the base becomes impossible to take over. 

    However, I think reaching the base would be a failed mechanic, and the battle should be a remarkable endeavor to make it 3/4 or even 1/2 way.

    I wouldn't play an MMO that you could win. And what you describe up there, I wouldn't play that whether I could win or not because it reads as a monotonous grind of kill x to kill 2x to kill 3x etc with no actual point outside of seeing how far you could go.

     

    It's space invaders with a subscription fee.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • OrtwigOrtwig Cambridge, MAPosts: 1,159Member Uncommon
    I don't play MMOs to "win."
  • free2playfree2play Toronto, ONPosts: 1,868Member Uncommon

    There was an MMO, I don't remember the name but you had an Island and you were given time to establish a strategy on how you wanted to build it up and fortify, make conquering elements. In short time you were exposed to the rest of the player base and you all duked it out for a spot on a leader board. In 3 months the whole thing reset. You couldn't "win" per say, you repeated the same 3 month cycle and built a leader board stat by figuring effective strategies.

    The game failed.

  • eye_meye_m Notta Chance, ABPosts: 3,133Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

     

    I wouldn't play an MMO that you could win. And what you describe up there, I wouldn't play that whether I could win or not because it reads as a monotonous grind of kill x to kill 2x to kill 3x etc with no actual point outside of seeing how far you could go.

     

    It's space invaders with a subscription fee.

    Sorry, I never implied there would be a subscription fee. I was just curious about how people would respond if the ultimate goal was unobtainable.  Of course there could be a lot more dynamics and such involved.

    All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

    I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

    I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

  • JuicemanJuiceman Prescott, AZPosts: 167Member
    If you made the game nearly impossible, or a boss or two nearly impossible, I'd play it, even if i lost to said boss 100s of times.  It would also be hard to get to that point.  When u did get there you would find out you're still striving to be the best, and your not even close.  After a year or so, if it was really impossible, people playing would start to notice.  Also, if it was impossible to win, I don't think I'd want to know about it from the get go.  Didn't EQ have a boss kinda like this? some bad ass dragon or something then some guild Fiiiinallly killed it?  Endless dungeon on torchlight is sorta like that too.  Also, kid who mentioned Diablo3 is right, there is no OP anymore, farming mp5+ gets ridiculous and u start to loose speed, efficiency.  If theres a character out there with good enough gear to speed farm mp7-10 Alk runs or similar, i want to see his setup :).
  • GorweGorwe ZagrebPosts: 2,472Member Uncommon
    Nah, I wouldn't. And I don't play MMOs for the "winning" Aspect either. I just want a game where I can be an armoursmith and never have to kill something(think SWG). For example. You can't win there either, but instead of your, frankly, nonsensical way of doing it-you have character ties and the feeling of being important(ironically even more so than if you downed the final boss in some of today's MMOs->Blacksmith > Slayer lol!).
  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,906Member Uncommon

    If the battleground was the only thing in the game, then no.  It's too narrow to keep my interest.

     

    On the other side, it sounds like it would be a fun mini-game for embedding into a larger world MMORPG.  Especially if there was decent progression to be had in the battle.  One plus is that it's massively multiplayer, almost like a giant raid group.  Given how little activity in MMORPGs still is massively multiplayer, this is a big plus for me.

     

    In a way it also sounds like it could be adapted for PVP, sort of a zerg-ish RVR bg.

     


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • dave6660dave6660 New York, NYPosts: 2,543Member Uncommon
    Sure.  I grew up with arcade games that could never be beaten.  It was fun regardless, just seeing how far you can get before your ultimate demise.

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • L0C0ManL0C0Man Puerto OrdazPosts: 1,065Member Uncommon

    I love MMOs but because of time constrains, I rarely do dungeons and almost never raid if it's available, so technically I'm always playing games that I couldn't win.

    That said, the game style described by the op I wouldn't play, not because I couldn't win, but because to be frank, the game design sounds a little boring and repetitive to me, though I know that basically it's what most online FPSs and MOBA games are all about.

    What can men do against such reckless hate?

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,452Member Uncommon

    Not only would I play it, it's what I'm looking for.

    I was thinking about this the other day: all content seems to be a "given" in that every player, if they play long enough, will usually succeed. If not the dev's make easier versions at times so that they can at least see a particular raid or event.

    For me, I want there to be content that is so hard that unless I'm good enough, I won't see it. Therefore, if I really want to see it, I get better.

    Same with quests. Quests seem to be a relay race and that's about it. For the most part it's impossible to fail them. I want quests to be created where I need to actually be able to fail and if I do fail then there could be a consequence.

    I actually had a similiar beef to Oblvion. It suddenly dawned on me that I could just sit in a meadow and pick flowers and the daedra would wait on me at each city. There was never any sense of urgency.

    But then again, this is my taste.

  • SwampRobSwampRob Halifax, NSPosts: 1,008Member

    I have a slightly different proposal.

    Imagine a typical MMO with typical content.

    Additionally, at endgame, it has a bottomless dungeon:  each level is harder than the last, and has the potential (no guarantees) to drop better and better loot.   The difficutly would continue to ramp up with no limit.    Also, on top of the loot drops, you could earn fluff titles "Survived to level 34!".

    I'd bet dollars to dimes that such a dungeon would be very popular.   

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,452Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by eyelolled
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

     

    I was just curious about how people would respond if the ultimate goal was unobtainable.  Of course there could be a lot more dynamics and such involved.

    The ultimate goal should always be obtainable, just difficult and with a possibility of failure. if the ultimate goal is unobtainable then why even bother?

  • L0C0ManL0C0Man Puerto OrdazPosts: 1,065Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SwampRob

    I have a slightly different proposal.

    Imagine a typical MMO with typical content.

    Additionally, at endgame, it has a bottomless dungeon:  each level is harder than the last, and has the potential (no guarantees) to drop better and better loot.   The difficutly would continue to ramp up with no limit.    Also, on top of the loot drops, you could earn fluff titles "Survived to level 34!".

    I'd bet dollars to dimes that such a dungeon would be very popular.   

    You just described the Fractals of the Mists dungeon in GW2, and yes, it is very popular.. :)


    http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fractals_of_the_Mists

    What can men do against such reckless hate?

  • FonclFoncl UppsalaPosts: 197Member

    It sounds interesting on paper but this can be achieved in most MMO's already to be honest. When I played WoW I used to try and get people to do content with me with worse and worse gear until it was extremely challenging and eventually impossible to beat. Very few people seem to be interested in playing like that to get a challenge though, most people just want the loot.

     

    Once you have finished a raid for the first time it just gets easier and easier as people get better gear, to me it's weird how people can stand doing the same content over and over while it gets easier and easier. When I have beaten something, the only way I can stand doing it again is if it's more challenging.

     

    Achievements have gotten more people in WoW to do fights in different ways but it's apparent that the primary motivation for most people is bragging rights rather than doing it simply for the challenge.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,638Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    Not only would I play it, it's what I'm looking for.

    I was thinking about this the other day: all content seems to be a "given" in that every player, if they play long enough, will usually succeed. If not the dev's make easier versions at times so that they can at least see a particular raid or event.

    For me, I want there to be content that is so hard that unless I'm good enough, I won't see it. Therefore, if I really want to see it, I get better.

    Same with quests. Quests seem to be a relay race and that's about it. For the most part it's impossible to fail them. I want quests to be created where I need to actually be able to fail and if I do fail then there could be a consequence.

    I actually had a similiar beef to Oblvion. It suddenly dawned on me that I could just sit in a meadow and pick flowers and the daedra would wait on me at each city. There was never any sense of urgency.

    But then again, this is my taste.

    I feel the same way about game content. Currently that's in the form of grinderrific legendary items in many MMOs (looking at you, GW2). Sometimes I really like seeing some dude with a rare title or item, asking them how they got it, and then hearing this amazing tale of how he and his buddies went to hell and back a dozen times to get it. Haven't gotten a response like that in years, though, as the most common response I receive now is just an item or mission link in the chat window.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

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