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What would make you interested in an open world PvP game?

evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member

Been thinking lately about why I tend to dislike open world PvP games. In pretty much every one of these games I have encountered childish players who rush to max level / power and then use that to grief new players or characters. 

With some of the games coming out like Age of Wushu and Darkfall Unholy Wars there are some consequence systems in place to supposedly prevent this kind of behaviour, but honestly I just dont think they go far enough.

I think if you want a realistic consequence system it needs to hit them hard, something they dont want to lose.

I would love to see a open world PvP game, where murdering another player (that is killing them without just reason, no guild conflict or territory control, or free for all PvP flagged areas such as arenas) would lead to bounties. While you have a bounty on your head you should be limited to lawless camps and areas.

The first offense within a week should result in jail, which will then strip your character of all currency and give it to the player who collected the bounty.  If a second offense is commited, the second bounty should  result in permadeath for the offending character and the player collecting the bounty gets to keep all the equipment of the criminal character.

Definitely goes hand in hand with the death penalty given to murderers. Real incentive to limit the amount of players who are happy to grief due to a lack of consequence in these games.  A system like that would personally make me quite happy to have open PvP, because I know that while the danger is there that someone is willing to commit murder, there wont be cowardly attacks on new players for no reason. And would add a bit of lawful vs unlawful conflict for players interested in playing the villian or the hero.

So my question is, what  would make other people who normally shun PvP games interested in an open world PvP system?

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Comments

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member

    Nothing. PvP is not my bag.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,669Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by evilastro

    Been thinking lately about why I tend to dislike open world PvP games. In pretty much every one of these games I have encountered childish players who rush to max level / power and then use that to grief new players or characters. 

    With some of the games coming out like Age of Wushu and Darkfall Unholy Wars there are some consequence systems in place to supposedly prevent this kind of behaviour, but honestly I just dont think they go far enough.

    I think if you want a realistic consequence system it needs to hit them hard, something they dont want to lose.

    I would love to see a open world PvP game, where murdering another player (that is killing them without just reason, no guild conflict or territory control, or free for all PvP flagged areas such as arenas) would lead to bounties. While you have a bounty on your head you should be limited to lawless camps and areas.

    The first offense within a week should result in jail, which will then strip your character of all currency and give it to the player who collected the bounty.  If a second offense is commited, the second bounty should  result in permadeath for the offending character and the player collecting the bounty gets to keep all the equipment of the criminal character.

    Definitely goes hand in hand with the death penalty given to murderers. Real incentive to limit the amount of players who are happy to grief due to a lack of consequence in these games.  A system like that would personally make me quite happy to have open PvP, because I know that while the danger is there that someone is willing to commit murder, there wont be cowardly attacks on new players for no reason. And would add a bit of lawful vs unlawful conflict for players interested in playing the villian or the hero.

    So my question is, what  would make other people who normally shun PvP games interested in an open world PvP system?

    Basically, you either want an MMO where the open world PVP is completely meaningless or you want open world PVP where the PVP means something but is completely negated by massive loopholes you've just created in the system.

    You don't like a system, so you want to break it to hell and back for everyone else rather than just play a game that doesn't have it.

     

    "So my question is, what  would make other people who normally shun PvP games interested in an open world PvP system?"

    Very little. If a person is not a fan of a mechanic, it makes more sense to send them on their way and center changes around those who do like and use the mechanic than to water it down and ruin it to try to accommodate those who probably still won't take part in it anyway even after their every last unreasonable request was fulfilled.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • itchmonitchmon west islip, NYPosts: 1,714Member Uncommon

    consequences for being a jerk is all it takes for me.   on the pve / pvp scale i'm a little skewed towards pve... maybe 55 / 45... but the only two open pvp games i've played that i was able to stick around longer than a year were eve and L2.  you NEED those sanctions in place *by the game* in order to not have the game devolve into a murderfest.  if i want to play murderfest i'll play an FPS or play league of legends.

     

    peopple who disagree will say that "the playerbase should form the police, as opposed to NPCs" which in theory is good; however it never pans out.  Witness my (and many others') main problem with darkfall.

    RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.

    Currently Playing EVE, DFUW

    Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.

    Dwight D Eisenhower

    My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.

    Henry Rollins

  • apocolusterapocoluster newport news, VAPosts: 1,321Member Uncommon
      Finding a PvP system where Im the best and everyone else sucks but for some reason keeps playing while I pwn them, so I can continue to have fun at their expense.  Do I realisticly ever expect to see this game..No.

    No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin

  • Stuka1000Stuka1000 Posts: 872Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by evilastro

    Been thinking lately about why I tend to dislike open world PvP games. In pretty much every one of these games I have encountered childish players who rush to max level / power and then use that to grief new players or characters. 

    With some of the games coming out like Age of Wushu and Darkfall Unholy Wars there are some consequence systems in place to supposedly prevent this kind of behaviour, but honestly I just dont think they go far enough.

    I think if you want a realistic consequence system it needs to hit them hard, something they dont want to lose.

    I would love to see a open world PvP game, where murdering another player (that is killing them without just reason, no guild conflict or territory control, or free for all PvP flagged areas such as arenas) would lead to bounties. While you have a bounty on your head you should be limited to lawless camps and areas.

    The first offense within a week should result in jail, which will then strip your character of all currency and give it to the player who collected the bounty.  If a second offense is commited, the second bounty should  result in permadeath for the offending character and the player collecting the bounty gets to keep all the equipment of the criminal character.

    Definitely goes hand in hand with the death penalty given to murderers. Real incentive to limit the amount of players who are happy to grief due to a lack of consequence in these games.  A system like that would personally make me quite happy to have open PvP, because I know that while the danger is there that someone is willing to commit murder, there wont be cowardly attacks on new players for no reason. And would add a bit of lawful vs unlawful conflict for players interested in playing the villian or the hero.

    So my question is, what  would make other people who normally shun PvP games interested in an open world PvP system?

     Bounty systems are wide open to abuse.  One player runs up a huge bounty on himself, gets a friend to kill him and then they split the money.  i do however agree with the intent.  Open PvP MMO's like DF will never be anything other than small niche games as a direct result of the griefers you mention. 

  • DauzqulDauzqul Detroit, MIPosts: 1,406Member Uncommon

    World PvP has never been done correctly. Games, especially these days, refuse to take the time and spend the resources on noteworthy PvP. It's all about being quick - the reason why we end up with such simplistic Battlegrounds, Warzones, and Arenas.

     

    If I was in charge, this is how I would structure my World PvP.

    #1. Mostly Faction-based PvP

    • Several factions that fight over the resources of the world.
    • If a player wishes for the ability to attack anyone, then he can go "rogue" and leave their current faction. Doing so would mean that he is on the "exile list" -  attackable by the city guards etc.
    #2. PvP can happen anywhere...even in the main starting city. However, an enemy sneaking into one of the starting cities will find it to be very tricky, as high-level guards will be patrolling. Moreover, players can sound city-wide alarms if they spot an enemy within their city.
     
    #3. Semi-loot PvP. If you kill an enemy player, you are able to take whatever gold is on him (not his bank). This is why it's important to bank your gold. Moreover, you can loot anything in his bags that are not equipped or "soul-bound".
     
    #4. Player Bounty Hunter Terminals: If a high level player ganks a few lowbies (unless they attack him first), then he will be placed on the Bounty Terminals. Anyone that is a member of the vicim's faction can accept the Bounty Mission. If you find the accused and kill him, he will be unable to play that character for 1 week.
     
    #5. No instances. This is a gigantic World Server. Vanguard would look like SWTOR compared to this.
     
    #6. Since there is so much land in the world, factions can secure large chunks of it, so long as they have enough player-made castles, walls, houses, and forts. Enemy clans can destroy these structures, but it is very time consuming and difficult.
  • DauzqulDauzqul Detroit, MIPosts: 1,406Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by eric1000
    Originally posted by evilastro

    Been thinking lately about why I tend to dislike open world PvP games. In pretty much every one of these games I have encountered childish players who rush to max level / power and then use that to grief new players or characters. 

    With some of the games coming out like Age of Wushu and Darkfall Unholy Wars there are some consequence systems in place to supposedly prevent this kind of behaviour, but honestly I just dont think they go far enough.

    I think if you want a realistic consequence system it needs to hit them hard, something they dont want to lose.

    I would love to see a open world PvP game, where murdering another player (that is killing them without just reason, no guild conflict or territory control, or free for all PvP flagged areas such as arenas) would lead to bounties. While you have a bounty on your head you should be limited to lawless camps and areas.

    The first offense within a week should result in jail, which will then strip your character of all currency and give it to the player who collected the bounty.  If a second offense is commited, the second bounty should  result in permadeath for the offending character and the player collecting the bounty gets to keep all the equipment of the criminal character.

    Definitely goes hand in hand with the death penalty given to murderers. Real incentive to limit the amount of players who are happy to grief due to a lack of consequence in these games.  A system like that would personally make me quite happy to have open PvP, because I know that while the danger is there that someone is willing to commit murder, there wont be cowardly attacks on new players for no reason. And would add a bit of lawful vs unlawful conflict for players interested in playing the villian or the hero.

    So my question is, what  would make other people who normally shun PvP games interested in an open world PvP system?

     Bounty systems are wide open to abuse.  One player runs up a huge bounty on himself, gets a friend to kill him and then they split the money.  i do however agree with the intent.  Open PvP MMO's like DF will never be anything other than small niche games as a direct result of the griefers you mention. 

    I never understood why people shun player bounties. There are so many ways it can work.

    Like I stated in the above post, if a high level player continues to gank lowbies, then he or she will automatically be placed on The Player Bounty Boards. Anyone from the victim's faction can accept the mission. If the accused dies, then that player will be unable to play his character for a 5-7 days.

    You are probably thinking, "What kind of reward is that?" Heh. It's a reward that will certainly work. While the hunter may not get anything of value, the thrill of the hunt and the fact that knowing how angry the ganker will be when he finds out that he cannot play his character for another week is intoxicating to many PvP fans.

    If people feel that they need to be rewarded with more, then a "bounty collect history" or "hall of fame" can be thrown in - a way to earn titles or aesthetic items.

     

    Player Bounties can work. People are just too lazy to do 'em...

  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKPosts: 8,541Member Uncommon

    Major consequences for griefing must be a major part to make sure the integrity and longevity of an open world PvP game persists. Otherwise a small group of players basically throws off the balance of the entire server which results in many players leaving, and then even the small group leaves as there's nobody left to grief - end result dead game.

     

  • steelheartxsteelheartx Biloxi, MSPosts: 432Member Uncommon
    Nothing, i have no patience for non-consentual PvP.

    Looking for a family that you can game with for life? Check out Grievance at https://www.grievancegaming.org !

  • ScarfeScarfe londonPosts: 281Member
    Being able to flag my PVP on or off in all honesty is the only way I would play one.  Getting ganked while at 20% health from questing is not and will never be my idea of fun, and losing three days worth of equipment as a result will have me reaching straight for the uninstall button, regardless of the repurcussions for the ganker. 

    currently playing: DDO, AOC, WoT, P101

  • dinamsdinams Muriae, VAPosts: 1,362Member

    No rewards for jerks, only consequences

     

    Oh wait this already happens on wushu

    "It has potential"
    -Second most used phrase on existence
    "It sucks"
    -Most used phrase on existence

  • DauzqulDauzqul Detroit, MIPosts: 1,406Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by steelheartx
    Nothing, i have no patience for non-consentual PvP.

    I have no attention spam for consensual-redundant PvP.

  • ScarfeScarfe londonPosts: 281Member
    Originally posted by mmoDAD
    Originally posted by steelheartx
    Nothing, i have no patience for non-consentual PvP.

    I have no attention spam for consensual-redundant PvP.

    I don't know, there is a reason why boxing, professional wrestling etc get a huge audience, and punching someone in the face in the street gets a court appearance. 

    currently playing: DDO, AOC, WoT, P101

  • CaldrinCaldrin CwmbranPosts: 4,533Member Uncommon

    I love open world full loot PVP games with no restrictions..

     

    Killing other people for no reason of course should have consequences, maybe a combination of a flagging system, bounty system and guard patrols or somthing would work good..

     

    Still its a complex issue :)

  • ScalplessScalpless SnowballvillePosts: 1,396Member Uncommon

    EVE does OW PvP right. Its high/low/null-sec system does a good job at protecting newbies, but offers those who want to PvP a chance to do so.

    It also has plenty of other things to do. The problem with many OW PvP games is that they're just that - OW PvP games. They're inferior to other games when it comes to PvE, crafting, peaceful player interactions, etc. They're more like battlegrounds than well-rounded games.

    Faction-based PvP is also quite nice. I liked the way it was handled in Anarchy Online.

  • MaelwyddMaelwydd CrawleyPosts: 1,123Member

    If another player has the freedom to kill me anytime, anywhere, repeatedly...

    then I want the ability to own land, have a law forbidding anyone attacking another on it, the ability to have guards capture said killer, a jail to put them in, and the ability to repeatedly NOT let them out.

    Freedom to play how I want and player justice too!

    But that is what FFA OW PvP'ers want right?

  • apocolusterapocoluster newport news, VAPosts: 1,321Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Scarfe
    Originally posted by mmoDAD
    Originally posted by steelheartx
    Nothing, i have no patience for non-consentual PvP.

    I have no attention spam for consensual-redundant PvP.

    I don't know, there is a reason why boxing, mixed Martial Arts etc get a huge audience, and punching someone in the face in the street gets a court appearance. 

    FIxed that for you  lol  Pro wrestling is fake :)

    No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,501Member Uncommon

    EVE has been the only game that I've played that did open world PvP in a way that was fun for me. Rare and expensive resources in the most dangerous areas. Safe areas (still not completely safe) for noobs. Loss of ship, cargo and equipped items. The incredibly amazing regional economy. It's really the way the whole system works together that made me keep playing for over 2 years.

     

    It just doesn't translate as easily to a ground game though. If someone could translate it, I'd be all over it. Sometimes I wonder why I'm still not playing the game.

  • DauzqulDauzqul Detroit, MIPosts: 1,406Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Scarfe
    Originally posted by mmoDAD
    Originally posted by steelheartx
    Nothing, i have no patience for non-consentual PvP.

    I have no attention spam for consensual-redundant PvP.

    I don't know, there is a reason why boxing, professional wrestling etc get a huge audience, and punching someone in the face in the street gets a court appearance. 

    That is a terrible comparison and you know it.

     

    Instanced PvP is terrible. After the first month, the best strategies are leaned by all. Thus, the game becomes a constant rinse and repeat borefest.

    There is no element of surprise. PvP is expected.

    Too be honest, if rewards were removed from Battlegrounds, very few would play them. In fact, they would probably die.

     

    I'd have no problem with Instanced PvP if they just kept it off the PvP-labeled servers. But that's not the case. Because of the item-reward incentive, it screws everything up.

  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper LondonPosts: 2,751Member

    I enjoy open world pvp so it takes very little to get me interested in it.

     

     

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • ScarfeScarfe londonPosts: 281Member
    Originally posted by mmoDAD
    Originally posted by Scarfe
    Originally posted by mmoDAD
    Originally posted by steelheartx
    Nothing, i have no patience for non-consentual PvP.

    I have no attention spam for consensual-redundant PvP.

    I don't know, there is a reason why boxing, professional wrestling etc get a huge audience, and punching someone in the face in the street gets a court appearance. 

    That is a terrible comparison and you know it.

     

    Instanced PvP is terrible. After the first month, the best strategies are leaned by all. Thus, the game becomes a constant rinse and repeat borefest.

    There is no element of surprise. PvP is expected.

    Too be honest, if rewards were removed from Battlegrounds, very few would play them. In fact, they would probably die.

     

    I'd have no problem with Instanced PvP if they just kept it off the PvP-labeled servers. But that's not the case. Because of the item-reward incentive, it screws everything up.

    Yes it is but was more of a wind up than a real comparison.  I am not a great fan of instanced pvp outside of GW1 or console shooters.  What I do enjoy but is non-existent these days is consensual open world pvp.  What I don't like is ganking. 

    currently playing: DDO, AOC, WoT, P101

  • DisdenaDisdena Troy, NYPosts: 1,093Member

    How many times have you played a game like GTA or Saints Row and decided not to break the law because it would result in a totally effing sweet police chase potentially ending with your magnificent death? That's how effective a bounty system is at stopping ganks.

    Time and time and time again people bring up this notion that "Open world PvP is great, but the reason some people don't like it is that they can be killed for no reason by someone they have no hope of defeating. Let's try to fix that!" It's not fixable, because it's the point of playing the game. You get killed a bunch while becoming stronger and smarter, and your efforts pay off as you get good enough to defend yourself or even attack others.

    If the point of bounties and jails is to prevent other players from attacking without cause, then WHY allow them to attack other players without cause? Why build it into the game? You don't have to; most games don't. You are quite literally stating that a feature should be added to the game—one that is not present in most games—and then the players who use that feature should be punished in the harshest way you can think of.

    Think back to the GTA example I gave. The point of the Wanted system in that game is certainly not to discourage players from breaking the law. I hope that is obvious. The feature exists in order to create gameplay. You'd have to be a pretty poor game designer to look at GTA and say "The Wanted system needs to have much harsher consequences because right now it's definitely not doing enough to prevent unlawful behavior."

    image
  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,003Member

    Bounty never really works because you can just send items to another character.

    There is some sort of limitation like no trade, can't sell to merchant, have to kill x amount of mob to regain the limit etc I think age of conan have(or had that system).  I dont' know how age of conan is now since I havn't follow it for years.

    The best system is just let it be.  And dont' play those game if you don't like it.

    Also I'm not sure how Eve's way translate to the common fantasy games.  Have very far tower shooting arrow at people who gank other?  Have NPC sniple rifleman protect the noob?  I just don't know.  That sound weird though.

  • MaelwyddMaelwydd CrawleyPosts: 1,123Member
    Originally posted by mmoDAD

    Too be honest, if rewards were removed from Battlegrounds, very few would play them. In fact, they would probably die.

    Correct me if I am wrong but arn't those games simply called FPS games? Like battlefield or call of Duty and the like?

    Crazy thought but some people just like to PvP for the fun of it because of the challenge. That is the reason i stay away from OW PvP for the most part. There is no challenge. I am either hugely overpowered or hugely underpowered in comparrison. I cannot even remember the last time I was in a well balanced PvP fight in an OW game that was fun and won by the more skillful team.

    I play a lot of 'fixed' PvP games. WOT is the one I play most often atm as an example. The thing i love about it is, sometimes people get a D/C, or are idle or just bad players. But the more skillful team will win more often then not. That to me is the essence of any PvP and the problem with PvP in MMORPG's.

     

     

  • PsiKahnPsiKahn Woodside, NYPosts: 126Member

    It's not that open world pvp can't be done, it's that to do it right requires some creative thinking with regard to other aspects of the game.  First, you need to squeeze the skill difference between high-level and low-level players.  Low-level players need to have a chance of hurting or even killing a higher level player who attacks them.  They shouldn't be either getting one-hit or swinging and missing for 5 minutes.  Second, you need to eliminate conning.  High level players shouldn't be able to pick out the weak too easily to pk.  Granted it's fair to be able to glean some information from armor and appearance, but I don't see why you always magically know who's strong and who's weak in MMOs from 200 feet away.  Thirdly, the best way to disincentivize griefing is through tangible built-in consequences.  Open loot for example.  If someone wants to go around killing players indiscriminantly, they should be worried about other players retaliating and stealing their gear.  That's not to say that players won't be able to kill for no reason, but they'll at least have to think twice.  Even better is a limited number of lives for a character.  That makes pking a high-risk lifestyle that will shorten character life-span, thus restricting those characters from growing too powerful.

    I'm following Trials of Ascension because the design of that game takes this into account (let's hope it gets funded).  It's open PvP, but between the protections of player settlements, lack of conning, and a 100-life per character limit, I'm willing to wager that ultimately there will be remarkably little player killing most of the time unless you're venturing out and willingly putting yourself at risk.  It's simply too risky for any but the most dedicated (and reckless) pkers.  And my hats go off to them.  I much prefer open PvP, with realistic incentives against wanton player killing, to artificial restrictions.

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