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Anet's curious game design decisions that caused the 20-70 wasteland

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  • ScarfeScarfe Member Posts: 281
    Originally posted by ennymith

    This is a nut that no MMO has ever cracked. 

    The only near successful way to deal with the mid range hole, is to maintain a rate of success in bringing in new players sufficient to populate said zones. 

    WOW appears to be the only mega-success at this, while GW2, appears to be sinking, or at least in serious bail out territory.

     

    Or have quests that require higher level players to return to lower level areas.  Or just have multi-level areas, I have never understood why this idea hasn't been explored, and I don't mean the arbitrary dynamic level adjustment as per GW2, I mean have an area where the further or deeper or higher you explore, the harder the mobs. 

    currently playing: DDO, AOC, WoT, P101

  • KenFisherKenFisher Member UncommonPosts: 5,035
    Originally posted by botrytis
     

    GW2 also has flat leveling, meaning to get to the next level you need to get the same amount of exp as the previous.

     

    In looking at how this is designed, I think the flat leveling is part of the problem with empty mid-level zones.

     

    One of the reasons games use exponential time to completion growth as levels go up is to bunch people up at mid levels because that's where the curve starts slowing down.  Even if 50% of the players drop out by mid-level, there are still many people playing at mid-level because it takes incredibly long to get out of it.

     

    Without exponential growth of time to level, there is no mechanism bunching them up.  Only at reaching level cap does population go back up, because these players are stuck there with more added daily.

     

     


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  When I don't understand, I ask.  Such is not intended as criticism.
  • botrytisbotrytis Member RarePosts: 3,363
    Originally posted by XAPGames
    Originally posted by botrytis
     

    GW2 also has flat leveling, meaning to get to the next level you need to get the same amount of exp as the previous.

     

    In looking at how this is designed, I think the flat leveling is part of the problem with empty mid-level zones.

     

    One of the reasons games use exponential time to completion growth as levels go up is to bunch people up at mid levels because that's where the curve starts slowing down.  Even if 50% of the players drop out by mid-level, there are still many people playing at mid-level because it takes incredibly long to get out of it.

     

    Without exponential growth of time to level, there is no mechanism bunching them up.  Only at reaching level cap does population go back up, because these players are stuck there with more added daily.

     

     

    They purposely did flat leveling because people were complaining about how games have gone to exponential lelveing making it a real grind to level out. This is the belssing and curse that is GW2. That is why they have level scaling so you can go back to zones and do things you missed without being bored. It is a damned if you do, damned if you don't type of thing. Also, I don't think A.Net expected people to play 8-10 hours a day every day.


  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 7,254
    Originally posted by Leucent
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Which themepark style game are you playing that has all the mid-level zones bustling with people? 

    I play both Rift, and WoW, and both are extremely active in mid levels.

    I'll show you right now what is in WoW. And it is anything but populated.

     

    WoW - Moonguard
    Feralas 3    lvl 39 lvl 90 lvl 90
    Desolace 2    lvl 35 lvl 90
    Southern Barrens 1    lvl 90
    Witnerspring 2    lvl 50 lvl 80

     

    And the actual chance of seeing those people is extremely low since you will not be leveling in the same area. Those numbers are far lower than the number of people I find in GW2 zones, even if GW2 zones are underpopulated.

  • skydiver12skydiver12 Member Posts: 432


    Originally posted by Volkon
    You want them to acknowledge that your opinion is right and act on that where as many disagree with your opinion and don't feel such radical changes are needed? How bizarre. 

    Regarding the second part there... the yellow text answers everything. You're a thief, a glass cannon. I've been taken down by thieves in WvW in a couple shots on my mesmer in full exotics. It's what they do... if you catch them you can melt them rather easily. If they get you first however it's rather unpleasant. 

    Here's something to try... take your thief to Southsun Cove and see how you do against the little karka. I'm actually curious... I can take one out solo in about five second on my mesmer (the key is to let them kill themselves, actually)... I'd be curious to see how a thief does in that environment. I've noticed a lack of thieves there doing any sort of farming. Of course... this has nothing to do with the lower level zones, but I am curious on that. 

    Oh... I had five powerful bloods drop in about 20 mins in Southsun... did they up the drop rate or did the RNG gods finally smile at me for once?


    Same could be said about your opinion. Pointless comment.

    Regarding your second part, learn to read, which part of thief, guardian, warrior, engineer did you miss?

    Just because some GC thief killed you in PVP stop assuming every thief out there is like that.
    My knight and valkyre gear scream you are clueless and yes i carry only one dagger for RP reasons.

    If i go anywhere to prove something i'd rather take my geared guardian and aoe roflstomp 10 enemies at once.

  • LeucentLeucent Member Posts: 2,371
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by Leucent
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Which themepark style game are you playing that has all the mid-level zones bustling with people? 

    I play both Rift, and WoW, and both are extremely active in mid levels.

    I'll show you right now what is in WoW. And it is anything but populated.

     

    WoW - Moonguard
    Feralas 3    lvl 39 lvl 90 lvl 90
    Desolace 2    lvl 35 lvl 90
    Southern Barrens 1    lvl 90
    Witnerspring 2    lvl 50 lvl 80

     

    And the actual chance of seeing those people is extremely low since you will not be leveling in the same area. Those numbers are far lower than the number of people I find in GW2 zones, even if GW2 zones are underpopulated.

    Well, lets see. I logged into wow just now at lvl 35 and got a dungeon pop in 2 mins. Then I ran through southern barrens to lvl up my pets, saw at least 20 people. I can tell you that when I was playing GW2 I would run into next to no one at lvl 20, and that was 2 months ago. Take into account the CRZ, and boom, you have a busier game then GW2 empty zones.

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter Member UncommonPosts: 3,066
    Originally posted by Leucent
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by Leucent
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Which themepark style game are you playing that has all the mid-level zones bustling with people? 

    I play both Rift, and WoW, and both are extremely active in mid levels.

    I'll show you right now what is in WoW. And it is anything but populated.

     

    WoW - Moonguard
    Feralas 3    lvl 39 lvl 90 lvl 90
    Desolace 2    lvl 35 lvl 90
    Southern Barrens 1    lvl 90
    Witnerspring 2    lvl 50 lvl 80

     

    And the actual chance of seeing those people is extremely low since you will not be leveling in the same area. Those numbers are far lower than the number of people I find in GW2 zones, even if GW2 zones are underpopulated.

    Well, lets see. I logged into wow just now at lvl 35 and got a dungeon pop in 2 mins. Then I ran through southern barrens to lvl up my pets, saw at least 20 people. I can tell you that when I was playing GW2 I would run into next to no one at lvl 20, and that was 2 months ago. Take into account the CRZ, and boom, you have a busier game then GW2 empty zones.


    image

    imageimage

    Some of the lvl20-70 barren zones -pictures ranging between last week and last month for the blue water one.

    I'll see if I remember to take a few more screen shots this week while playing.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • LeucentLeucent Member Posts: 2,371
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by Leucent
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by Leucent
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Which themepark style game are you playing that has all the mid-level zones bustling with people? 

    I play both Rift, and WoW, and both are extremely active in mid levels.

    I'll show you right now what is in WoW. And it is anything but populated.

     

    WoW - Moonguard
    Feralas 3    lvl 39 lvl 90 lvl 90
    Desolace 2    lvl 35 lvl 90
    Southern Barrens 1    lvl 90
    Witnerspring 2    lvl 50 lvl 80

     

    And the actual chance of seeing those people is extremely low since you will not be leveling in the same area. Those numbers are far lower than the number of people I find in GW2 zones, even if GW2 zones are underpopulated.

    Well, lets see. I logged into wow just now at lvl 35 and got a dungeon pop in 2 mins. Then I ran through southern barrens to lvl up my pets, saw at least 20 people. I can tell you that when I was playing GW2 I would run into next to no one at lvl 20, and that was 2 months ago. Take into account the CRZ, and boom, you have a busier game then GW2 empty zones.

    What... yeah, instanced dungeon pops are common. But this bullshit lie about seeing 20 people in southern barrens right now is just lying bullshit.

     

    What server are you on so I can check your story? Or are you not going to tell me?

    Lol, CRZ is changing constantly. That, would mean your numbers aren t correct. It isn t perfect by any means, as my wife and I would be questing, and she wouldn t be with me, then boom she is. That said, people come and go because of this, so your number taking isn t going to work.

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 7,254
    Originally posted by Leucent
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by Leucent
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by Leucent
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Which themepark style game are you playing that has all the mid-level zones bustling with people? 

    I play both Rift, and WoW, and both are extremely active in mid levels.

    I'll show you right now what is in WoW. And it is anything but populated.

     

    WoW - Moonguard
    Feralas 3    lvl 39 lvl 90 lvl 90
    Desolace 2    lvl 35 lvl 90
    Southern Barrens 1    lvl 90
    Witnerspring 2    lvl 50 lvl 80

     

    And the actual chance of seeing those people is extremely low since you will not be leveling in the same area. Those numbers are far lower than the number of people I find in GW2 zones, even if GW2 zones are underpopulated.

    Well, lets see. I logged into wow just now at lvl 35 and got a dungeon pop in 2 mins. Then I ran through southern barrens to lvl up my pets, saw at least 20 people. I can tell you that when I was playing GW2 I would run into next to no one at lvl 20, and that was 2 months ago. Take into account the CRZ, and boom, you have a busier game then GW2 empty zones.

    What... yeah, instanced dungeon pops are common. But this bullshit lie about seeing 20 people in southern barrens right now is just lying bullshit.

     

    What server are you on so I can check your story? Or are you not going to tell me?

    Lol, CRZ is changing constantly. That, would mean your numbers aren t correct. It isn t perfect by any means, as my wife and I would be questing, and she wouldn t be with me, then boom she is. That said, people come and go because of this, so your number taking isn t going to work.

    What do you know? You won't tell me your server... figures.

  • LeucentLeucent Member Posts: 2,371
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
    Originally posted by Leucent
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by Leucent
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Which themepark style game are you playing that has all the mid-level zones bustling with people? 

    I play both Rift, and WoW, and both are extremely active in mid levels.

    I'll show you right now what is in WoW. And it is anything but populated.

     

    WoW - Moonguard
    Feralas 3    lvl 39 lvl 90 lvl 90
    Desolace 2    lvl 35 lvl 90
    Southern Barrens 1    lvl 90
    Witnerspring 2    lvl 50 lvl 80

     

    And the actual chance of seeing those people is extremely low since you will not be leveling in the same area. Those numbers are far lower than the number of people I find in GW2 zones, even if GW2 zones are underpopulated.

    Well, lets see. I logged into wow just now at lvl 35 and got a dungeon pop in 2 mins. Then I ran through southern barrens to lvl up my pets, saw at least 20 people. I can tell you that when I was playing GW2 I would run into next to no one at lvl 20, and that was 2 months ago. Take into account the CRZ, and boom, you have a busier game then GW2 empty zones.


    image

    imageimage

    Some of the lvl20-70 barren zones -pictures ranging between last week and last month for the water one.

    I'll see if I remember to take a few more screen shots this week while playing.

    Cool, glad to see there are some people still playing. I sure never saw that many pople ever at lvl 20.

  • LeucentLeucent Member Posts: 2,371
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by Leucent
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by Leucent
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by Leucent
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Which themepark style game are you playing that has all the mid-level zones bustling with people? 

    I play both Rift, and WoW, and both are extremely active in mid levels.

    I'll show you right now what is in WoW. And it is anything but populated.

     

    WoW - Moonguard
    Feralas 3    lvl 39 lvl 90 lvl 90
    Desolace 2    lvl 35 lvl 90
    Southern Barrens 1    lvl 90
    Witnerspring 2    lvl 50 lvl 80

     

    And the actual chance of seeing those people is extremely low since you will not be leveling in the same area. Those numbers are far lower than the number of people I find in GW2 zones, even if GW2 zones are underpopulated.

    Well, lets see. I logged into wow just now at lvl 35 and got a dungeon pop in 2 mins. Then I ran through southern barrens to lvl up my pets, saw at least 20 people. I can tell you that when I was playing GW2 I would run into next to no one at lvl 20, and that was 2 months ago. Take into account the CRZ, and boom, you have a busier game then GW2 empty zones.

    What... yeah, instanced dungeon pops are common. But this bullshit lie about seeing 20 people in southern barrens right now is just lying bullshit.

     

    What server are you on so I can check your story? Or are you not going to tell me?

    Lol, CRZ is changing constantly. That, would mean your numbers aren t correct. It isn t perfect by any means, as my wife and I would be questing, and she wouldn t be with me, then boom she is. That said, people come and go because of this, so your number taking isn t going to work.

    What do you know? You won't tell me your server... figures.

    Lol, I m on Helscream, but as I said it s constantly cahnging. So your numbers DON T WORK.

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 7,254
    Originally posted by Leucent

    Lol, I m on Helscream, but as I said it s constantly cahnging. So your numbers DON T WORK.

    Zero people in Southern Barrens. I am even headed over there to see if I can see one single person CRZ. 

     

    Zero.

  • LeucentLeucent Member Posts: 2,371
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by Leucent

    Lol, I m on Helscream, but as I said it s constantly cahnging. So your numbers DON T WORK.

    Zero people in Southern Barrens. I am even headed over there to see if I can see one single person CRZ. 

     

    Zero.

    Cool, considering I m standing next to 4 people in southern barrens as we speak.

  • Lazarus71Lazarus71 Member UncommonPosts: 1,081
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by Leucent
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by Leucent

    Lol, I m on Helscream, but as I said it s constantly cahnging. So your numbers DON T WORK.

    Zero people in Southern Barrens. I am even headed over there to see if I can see one single person CRZ. 

     

    Zero.

    Cool, considering I m standing next to 4 people in southern barrens as we speak.

    [mod edit]

    You are also talking about WoW which is now an 8 year old game that has turned into a LFD lobby game. When WoW had been out as long as GW2 has now there was no lack of players in any zone at all and for many years this was the case.  Therefore it's not really a valid comparison because of the difference in age of both games. 

    No signature, I don't have a pen

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 7,254
    Originally posted by Lazarus71
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by Leucent
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by Leucent

    Lol, I m on Helscream, but as I said it s constantly cahnging. So your numbers DON T WORK.

    Zero people in Southern Barrens. I am even headed over there to see if I can see one single person CRZ. 

     

    Zero.

    Cool, considering I m standing next to 4 people in southern barrens as we speak.

    [mod edit]

    You are also talking about WoW which is now an 8 year old game that has turned into a LFD lobby game. When WoW had been out as long as GW2 has now there was no lack of players in any zone at all and for many years this was the case.  Therefore it's not really a valid comparison because of the difference in age of both games. 

    Oh, I agree with you. I mean, it is a valid comparison because it has the most users out of any themepark ever right at this moment, but I agree that it has turned into a LFD lobby and that is teh reason the world is less popualted as I have stated before.

  • botrytisbotrytis Member RarePosts: 3,363
    Originally posted by Lazarus71
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by Leucent
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by Leucent

    Lol, I m on Helscream, but as I said it s constantly cahnging. So your numbers DON T WORK.

    Zero people in Southern Barrens. I am even headed over there to see if I can see one single person CRZ. 

     

    Zero.

    Cool, considering I m standing next to 4 people in southern barrens as we speak.

    Your character would show up on my who. It does not. You are lying again.

    You are also talking about WoW which is now an 8 year old game that has turned into a LFD lobby game. When WoW had been out as long as GW2 has now there was no lack of players in any zone at all and for many years this was the case.  Therefore it's not really a valid comparison because of the difference in age of both games. 

    There ere not that many MMO's out when WoW came on to the scene, either. Can't really compare.


  • NadiaNadia Member UncommonPosts: 11,798
    Originally posted by colddog04
     it has turned into a LFD lobby and that is teh reason the world is less popualted as I have stated before.

    thats my biggest issue w dungeon finders - especially if they are cross server

    makes a mmo feel like a lobby game

  • Lazarus71Lazarus71 Member UncommonPosts: 1,081
    Originally posted by Nadia
    Originally posted by colddog04
     it has turned into a LFD lobby and that is teh reason the world is less popualted as I have stated before.

    thats my biggest issue w dungeon finders - especially if they are cross server

    makes a mmo feel like a lobby game

    While I do think at a late late stage in a MMOs life the LFD can be a valid tool I have to agree when any MMO talks of adding one I cringe.

    No signature, I don't have a pen

  • kyssarikyssari Member Posts: 142

    My biggest issue with this so called wasteland is GW2's skill system actually. That being said the wasteland exists more 30-80 rather than 20. The thing is once you hit 30 and unlock your Elite skill slot you can technically have every skill in the game unlocked that your character can ever possibly use. You can easily get all the skillpoints from all the pvp zones and 1-35 zones (and even a number of higher ones if have to) to unlock everything at 30.

    That being said I often found myself burning out around mid30s-40 with my alts because by that time I had all the skills unlocked I was interested in and thus I really had nothing to look foward to until 80. That leaves 40-50 lvls of nothing but gear upgrades really. With most other mmo's leveling up to gain access to those cool new abilities played a much larger part in making me want to hit those high levels with numerous toons so I could play with those new abilities. This doesn't really exist in as much with GW2, especially when you ause the Heart of the Mists area.

    Not saying the system is good or bad just the biggest reason for my fast burnout on the game in general.

  • hikaru77hikaru77 Member UncommonPosts: 1,123
    Those zones are a westeland because GW2 doesnt have enought new players in the game, it happen with pretty much everysingle MMO in the market a few month later after launch, plus GW2 have no replayability, people hit 80, then quit or just do Casual PvP, and if you just want to PvP, there is no need to go to the PvE world.   
  • KenFisherKenFisher Member UncommonPosts: 5,035
    Originally posted by botrytis
     
     

    That is why they have level scaling so you can go back to zones and do things you missed without being bored. It is a damned if you do, damned if you don't type of thing. Also, I don't think A.Net expected people to play 8-10 hours a day every day.

     

    Good points.  There is no win for the fast / slow design question.  At this point I'm rethinking levels.  I've already eliminated XP :-)  We'll see how that goes.

     


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  When I don't understand, I ask.  Such is not intended as criticism.
  • MardukkMardukk Member RarePosts: 2,222
    Originally posted by kyssari

    My biggest issue with this so called wasteland is GW2's skill system actually. That being said the wasteland exists more 30-80 rather than 20. The thing is once you hit 30 and unlock your Elite skill slot you can technically have every skill in the game unlocked that your character can ever possibly use. You can easily get all the skillpoints from all the pvp zones and 1-35 zones (and even a number of higher ones if have to) to unlock everything at 30.

    That being said I often found myself burning out around mid30s-40 with my alts because by that time I had all the skills unlocked I was interested in and thus I really had nothing to look foward to until 80. That leaves 40-50 lvls of nothing but gear upgrades really. With most other mmo's leveling up to gain access to those cool new abilities played a much larger part in making me want to hit those high levels with numerous toons so I could play with those new abilities. This doesn't really exist in as much with GW2, especially when you ause the Heart of the Mists area.

    Not saying the system is good or bad just the biggest reason for my fast burnout on the game in general.

    This is the real problem, not anything to do with the zones (although the difficulty is very low until the later zones).  Character progression, which they already know is very limited past lvl 30, needs some significant work. 

  • TorgrimTorgrim Member CommonPosts: 2,088

    I'm on Far Shiverpeaks and sure mid range zones are somewhat emty but not THAT emty I do see people running around and I do see people writing in map chat and doing DE together.

    What really bugs me the most is that Orr is emty and doing map completion alone in those zones are a pain in the ass.

    Straight of Devastation tend to have more players due to the temple if It's up and If It's not, then there are always some people trying to do that loooong boring DE chain to trigger the assult.

    Overall I don't see a wasteland in 20-70 zones but they are not bustling zones either.

    If it's not broken, you are not innovating.

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter Member UncommonPosts: 3,066
    Originally posted by Lazarus71
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by Leucent
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by Leucent

    Lol, I m on Helscream, but as I said it s constantly cahnging. So your numbers DON T WORK.

    Zero people in Southern Barrens. I am even headed over there to see if I can see one single person CRZ. 

     

    Zero.

    Cool, considering I m standing next to 4 people in southern barrens as we speak.

    Your character would show up on my who. It does not. You are lying again.

    You are also talking about WoW which is now an 8 year old game that has turned into a LFD lobby game. When WoW had been out as long as GW2 has now there was no lack of players in any zone at all and for many years this was the case.  Therefore it's not really a valid comparison because of the difference in age of both games. 

    It was also during the explosion of the Internet where the amount of available games too choose from was very limited and compared to most WoW felt like a professional product competing with amateur products.

     

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • LobotomistLobotomist Member EpicPosts: 5,960

    Zone level scaling is simply not implemented in a good way.

     

    Here is what happens :

    1. You are scalled to roughly same level as content but you are still more powerful due to your equiped gear.

    - This is somehow good and would encourage players to play these zones since they are more effective in playing them ...

    However

    1. Zone rewards and item drops are same as zone level -

    - Why should player grind (play) zone that gives him less reward than another one ?

    2. Diminishing event rewards -

    - Heart events you can do only once (Fail decision) , and events give diminished returns to prevent farming (another fail decision)

     

    So simply there is no reason for players to go back to the zone once they hit 100% completion

     

    ---

    This can be remedied very easily - if Anet only wanted (question is : do they ?)

     

    1 Make zone rewards same as your level

    2 Give unique usefull drops in specific areas

    3 Make heart quest re doable

    4 Make zone events that are unique for area - and that really mater - reward wise

     

     



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