Sandbox games give the players the ability to actually alter the code in a game to include, move or remove game ellements. If you can't plop down a building or town, move things around the landscape or otherwise affect the game world in a permenant manner, then it has zero to do with the concept of sandbox.
You know you just disqualified EVE from being a sandbox right?
On topic though. What do you feel are the theme park elements of the game
Ok, well then Eve isn't a sandbox, the term itself should be fairly apparent to everyone if you think about it. If a game developer makes a game world you can join and persistantly alter such as city building, then they have given you a sandbox to play in as you will.
If a game developer makes a game world that you simply have fun on their premade rides then it's a themepark , people think because some games have an economy they are sandbox and that is where the confusion is.
So if you as a player have the GUI to affect the code of the game by making permenant changes as you see fit, you sir are in a sandbox. Anything else is themepark no matter how tedious it is or how many rocks you mine.
Your defination of a sandbox is just wrong....
A sandbox is a game which provides a persistant world for characters to exist in without any pre-determined path through the game for each player. They provide options and the settings, various possible ways to spend time.
A theme park is like a theme park ride. There is a pre-determined path or paths that a character must take through the game to have a certain type of experience.
Originally posted by mistmakerits definitly not a sandbox game but...it has some elements which are part of good sandbox games, like thatyou are not on rails and can do "what you want" andcan do stuff without killing any anda good crafting systemkind of open skill systemopen pvp with a good criminal systemwhat is missing is the open world without instances, a real housing system, there should be no teleport system (IMO)so its a nice hybrid mix IMO. 65% theme / 35% sand. but i guess, 100% sand wouldnt be a good game, but i would prefer 65/35 the other way. (improved SWG)
What are the theme elements? I haven't had anyone answer this. Will you please?
The only thing I could come up with is, there a dungeons and quest, which you do not have to do any of in order to progress. This is why I say it's 90/10 split.
In all theme parks you have to quest in order to progress. This is simply not the case in AoW.
i would say,
no open world, there are instances and a lot of loading screens quests and a personal story you are choosing a class, here called school, and have no real freedom within the skills (ok, you theoretically can have all skills but you cant use them effectivly due to a global cooldown)
for me, the most annoying thing is the not open world and the instances, unfortunately, most games are that way.
I tend to agree the less teleporting the better. However I believe as the zones available expand teleporting will be harder. I have my tp bar full...of schools I spy on, chengdu and suzhou. I have no more room! If I need to get to yinling to mine I have to walk from one of those places.
Open world is not in the definition of true sandbox but it does fit in with the definition we all tend to use. There is no restrictions on travel in this game but there are loading screens and funnel points so yea, it is not UO like walk anywhere without loading.
I think the most themepark elements are the story line quests, the school storyline and the perhaps the instances. The fact that nothing is bind on pickup that matters however means you never really have to go in the instance to get that special skill you want. As far as getting other skills and the cooldown, this is true even of skills within your own school...for it to be really effective you need to get at least two or three skills that make it worth changing styles mid fight. For instance getting the scholar twirling sword (which lasts almost as long as the cool down) AND scholar charging skill pretty much negates the cool down. I am working on the wudang skills myself since they use single sword like my scholar skills do one less weapon to worry about.
i am a fan of big open worlds, there can be loading, but there should be no loading screen. when i remember right, anarchy online had loading between zones, but you could already see the next zone, and there wasnt a screen.
swg did it good too and had the advantage of being a sci fi mmo. i hate lot of instances, teleports and loading screens which kick you out of the world for 10 seconds.
Sandbox games give the players the ability to actually alter the code in a game to include, move or remove game ellements. If you can't plop down a building or town, move things around the landscape or otherwise affect the game world in a permenant manner, then it has zero to do with the concept of sandbox.
You know you just disqualified EVE from being a sandbox right?
On topic though. What do you feel are the theme park elements of the game
Ok, well then Eve isn't a sandbox, the term itself should be fairly apparent to everyone if you think about it. If a game developer makes a game world you can join and persistantly alter such as city building, then they have given you a sandbox to play in as you will.
If a game developer makes a game world that you simply have fun on their premade rides then it's a themepark , people think because some games have an economy they are sandbox and that is where the confusion is.
So if you as a player have the GUI to affect the code of the game by making permenant changes as you see fit, you sir are in a sandbox. Anything else is themepark no matter how tedious it is or how many rocks you mine.
Please explain how there was such a thing as sandbox mode in old RPG's, well before you could ever do any of the stuff you claim is required for a game to be a "sandbox".
The problem isn't "what is a sandbox", it's some of you guys that insist on trying to redefine the requirements of a sandbox.
Gary's mod was the most popular purely sandbox game to release in it's day, BECAUSE you could do the things you claim are needed for a game to be a sandbox. Gary's mod did not create or invent the sandbox concept.
Once upon a time is simply meant the ability to play with no restrictions. Such as being able to turn on sandbox mode in Baldurs gate so that you had no levels, and no level requirements; you could just wander around and do whatever you wanted.
Today developers have the abiliity to create much more complex systems that have expand the sandbox beyond simply wandering around aimlessly with nothing to really do, and they can build entire game worlds around unrestricted gameplay.
I know you people will continue to argue against this, you will always be wrong though. Until you can go back in time, and completely change my entire gaming history so that I never, ever, had the ability to turn on an option or to install a mod that enabled sandbox mode in games that were released like 20 years ago.
I have evcen played sandbox RTS games. A variant game mode that removed all of the objectives and just allowed you to play with no goals. the DEVELOPERS told me that it was a sandbox, not other gamers.
A lot of people insist on trying to redefine sandbox the same way some of you will insist that if the game is played from first person view, using shooter combat mechanics, and has PvP that it's not an RPG.
There is no such thing as a "hybrid sandbox". It's either a themepark, were all content is delivered as a progression mechanic and intended to be consumed and moved on from. Or it's a sandbox and you're not given any specific path to take, and puts more emphasis on world building and tools as apposed to consumable content.
What we expect from a sandbox, some more than others, has changed; not what a sandbox is though.
AoW is as much a sandbox as EVE or UO, and no more a hybrid than WoW. AoW does not guide you or restrict the builk of content based on any form of progression. (There are some things like skills and proffesions that may require you to achieve something before it's unlocked. Like joining sholars requires you to become an artist of some sort before you can become a scholar, and some proffesions aren't available until you've achieved a particular level of some skill -kind of the way you have to learn the fundimentals of drawing before you can learn advanced painting techniques-)
Originally posted by mistmakerits definitly not a sandbox game but...it has some elements which are part of good sandbox games, like thatyou are not on rails and can do "what you want" andcan do stuff without killing any anda good crafting systemkind of open skill systemopen pvp with a good criminal systemwhat is missing is the open world without instances, a real housing system, there should be no teleport system (IMO)so its a nice hybrid mix IMO. 65% theme / 35% sand. but i guess, 100% sand wouldnt be a good game, but i would prefer 65/35 the other way. (improved SWG)
What are the theme elements? I haven't had anyone answer this. Will you please?
The only thing I could come up with is, there a dungeons and quest, which you do not have to do any of in order to progress. This is why I say it's 90/10 split.
In all theme parks you have to quest in order to progress. This is simply not the case in AoW.
i would say,
no open world, there are instances and a lot of loading screens quests and a personal story you are choosing a class, here called school, and have no real freedom within the skills (ok, you theoretically can have all skills but you cant use them effectivly due to a global cooldown)
for me, the most annoying thing is the not open world and the instances, unfortunately, most games are that way.
Thanks for the response.
Quests and dungeons. This seems to be the only elements that people have offered as "theme park," The thing is, you don't have to do either one past you first two hours of game play. This is how I get 90% sandbox , 10% theme park.
btw - 1 sec loading screen between big zones aint to bad, but yeah would be nice to have none.
Originally posted by mistmakerits definitly not a sandbox game but...it has some elements which are part of good sandbox games, like thatyou are not on rails and can do "what you want" andcan do stuff without killing any anda good crafting systemkind of open skill systemopen pvp with a good criminal systemwhat is missing is the open world without instances, a real housing system, there should be no teleport system (IMO)so its a nice hybrid mix IMO. 65% theme / 35% sand. but i guess, 100% sand wouldnt be a good game, but i would prefer 65/35 the other way. (improved SWG)
What are the theme elements? I haven't had anyone answer this. Will you please?
The only thing I could come up with is, there a dungeons and quest, which you do not have to do any of in order to progress. This is why I say it's 90/10 split.
In all theme parks you have to quest in order to progress. This is simply not the case in AoW.
i would say,
no open world, there are instances and a lot of loading screens quests and a personal story you are choosing a class, here called school, and have no real freedom within the skills (ok, you theoretically can have all skills but you cant use them effectivly due to a global cooldown)
for me, the most annoying thing is the not open world and the instances, unfortunately, most games are that way.
Thanks for the response.
Quests and dungeons. This seems to be the only elements that people have offered as "theme park," The thing is, you don't have to do either one past you first two hours of game play. This is how I get 90% sandbox , 10% theme park.
btw - 1 sec loading screen between big zones aint to bad, but yeah would be nice to have none.
The only thing that makes quests or dungeons "themepark" is if they're level restricted.
The moment quests or dungeons become level/ progression based, they aren't "sandbox".
Storyline progression isn't the same thing as not being able to do the quest because you haven't reached X level. Entering a dungeon and not being able to be effective isn't the same thing as entering a dungeon and not being able to hit something because they're X levels above you.
The defining element of a themepark is restriction, a sandbox is unrestricted.
You can do a level 4 mission in EVE online long before you ever have the skills to be able to handle them effectively. NPC standing in order to do the missions becomes neccisary because we are still playing a game and things need balance.
If a guy has a quest I can take in AoW, I can take it, I've not been told I have't reached a certian level and therefore can't undergo the task. Dungeons as far as I'm aware are also the same way? You aren't required to be any certian "level", even though there is a baseline for being effective; again, it's a game and things need balance.
Just like housing doesn't make a game a sandbox, neither does the inclusion of quests. Quests are a classic RPG staple, games are pretty boring without them.
What amount of sand do you have in this box to play with?
Imagine one sandbox gives you a lot of tools, but very little content.
Then this other sandbox gives you a lot of content, but few tools.
EVE is the first kind of sandbox.
My impression after playing AoW is that it is the second.
People seem to be just confused because the "conent based" sandbox offers all the same stuff you find in a themepark, and they haven't figured out that CONTENT is just CONTENT, and the mechanics that handle the content are what makes it a themepark or a sandbox.
Housing and questing arne't themepark or sandox
Housing I can only access after reaching a particular level is themepark; same for quests. Housing that I can do almost immediately, with my only restrictions being cost, is sandbox.
People keep trying to define the content itself, and that's wrong.
What amount of sand do you have in this box to play with?
Imagine one sandbox gives you a lot of tools, but very little content.
Then this other sandbox gives you a lot of content, but few tools.
EVE is the first kind of sandbox.
My impression after playing AoW is that it is the second.
Interesting PoV. I too have played EVE, not long though. What "tools" does EVE offer that AoW does not. Like I said I didn't play EVE long. I do know that EVE has an insane amount of features though.
What amount of sand do you have in this box to play with?
Imagine one sandbox gives you a lot of tools, but very little content.
Then this other sandbox gives you a lot of content, but few tools.
EVE is the first kind of sandbox.
My impression after playing AoW is that it is the second.
People seem to be just confused because the "conent based" sandbox offers all the same stuff you find in a themepark, and they haven't figured out that CONTENT is just CONTENT, and the mechanics that handle the content are what makes it a themepark or a sandbox.
Housing and questing arne't themepark or sandox
Housing I can only access after reaching a particular level is themepark; same for quests. Housing that I can do almost immediately, with my only restrictions being cost, is sandbox.
People keep trying to define the content itself, and that's wrong.
So that it is a non linear game with plenty of options and freedom, but little amount of sand?
It depends on the sand you want.
There's a lot of it in AoW, seriously a lot. It's things you can do. No so much, how you can alter the landscape.
But I don't really know the extent of guilds and territory though. If that ends up anything like EVE, AoW overall would dwarf EVE as far as "sand".
EVE gives you all the freedom to build something greater than you, but doesn't have nearly as many "things" to do as AoW. EVE's sand is more defined by the meta game.
I honestly don't know where AoW is going, it could end up with that same level of meta game that EVE has for all I know. Currently AoW just feels like I'm this dude in a historical Chinese setting where I can do whatever I want.
What amount of sand do you have in this box to play with?
Imagine one sandbox gives you a lot of tools, but very little content.
Then this other sandbox gives you a lot of content, but few tools.
EVE is the first kind of sandbox.
My impression after playing AoW is that it is the second.
People seem to be just confused because the "conent based" sandbox offers all the same stuff you find in a themepark, and they haven't figured out that CONTENT is just CONTENT, and the mechanics that handle the content are what makes it a themepark or a sandbox.
Housing and questing arne't themepark or sandox
Housing I can only access after reaching a particular level is themepark; same for quests. Housing that I can do almost immediately, with my only restrictions being cost, is sandbox.
People keep trying to define the content itself, and that's wrong.
Very well said. The mechanics and restrictions of the content play a very big role in the type of gameplay it offers. A lot of times any content that deviates from the norm gets viewed as sandbox simply because it's a different way of doing it.
For example, setting up a stall to sell. If you compare it to the static auction house that most NA/EU MMOs have, it suddenly seems like some kind of freeform gameplay option and gets mistaken for 'sandbox' content. Now, if those merchants can be killed, kidnapped or 'pursuaded' in order to control what is sold where and by whom, then that's an example of sandbox gameplay. If merchants and traders have tools to set up courier, barter, and trade contracts then that's another example of game mechanics to support sandbox gameplay.
The dungeon example you brought up was a great one. A dungeon is simply an environment for content and interaction. It's how the mechanics of the game support or restrict gameplay within the dungeon that make it sandbox or themepark content.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
What amount of sand do you have in this box to play with?
Imagine one sandbox gives you a lot of tools, but very little content.
Then this other sandbox gives you a lot of content, but few tools.
EVE is the first kind of sandbox.
My impression after playing AoW is that it is the second.
Interesting PoV. I too have played EVE, not long though. What "tools" does EVE offer that AoW does not. Like I said I didn't play EVE long. I do know that EVE has an insane amount of features though.
It's more focused around larger community play, and the emergent gameplay that results from the tools.
There's a market, destructible items that are all built by the players, and the need for players to obtain the minerals to build those items. Then you can build corps and own space. Individually none of that is really saying mauch.
But my corp happens to produce a lot of materials needed in T2 components. We happen to be one of the largest communities in the game. So we have little interdictions here and there.
"There's an expected dip in the price of yadda yadda coming, prices will be seeing a dive and can be expected to stay that way for several months." Said some guy in market discussion.
Then miners are mad, high sec PoS owners are mad. Other guys made lots of money, and got to see a bunch of other things explode.
EVE depends upon fewer "tools" ( The ability to blow up ships and a player run market) to allow players to have more impact on others.
AoW gives me the impression of depending on a lot of tools to facilitate more interaction. There's much less impact in AoW pvp.
EVE doesn't really offer more tools than AoW. It's more how those tools can be used to impact the wider game.
AoW really just feels like this big open place where I can play a crapton of minigames.
AoW is "similliar" to EVE, but they're really not the same game. I don't think it was correct for some articles to make the comparison in the way that they did. They're both sandboxes, it ends there though. One comment I saw someone make on one of the articles, "Why is like EVE?" was very accurate. AoW got compared to EVE but no real explination was actually given; so people seem to think that they're the same kind of sandbox when they really aren't.
I feel as though you have much less impact on the overal world in AoW than you can in EVE; not due to a lack of tools, but the way in which those tools are implimented for the type of sandbox it is.
AoW seems to be going the PvE/ gamey route, EVE is more based on what kind of content can be created through the interactions of groups of players.
Comments
Your defination of a sandbox is just wrong....
A sandbox is a game which provides a persistant world for characters to exist in without any pre-determined path through the game for each player. They provide options and the settings, various possible ways to spend time.
A theme park is like a theme park ride. There is a pre-determined path or paths that a character must take through the game to have a certain type of experience.
I tend to agree the less teleporting the better. However I believe as the zones available expand teleporting will be harder. I have my tp bar full...of schools I spy on, chengdu and suzhou. I have no more room! If I need to get to yinling to mine I have to walk from one of those places.
Open world is not in the definition of true sandbox but it does fit in with the definition we all tend to use. There is no restrictions on travel in this game but there are loading screens and funnel points so yea, it is not UO like walk anywhere without loading.
I think the most themepark elements are the story line quests, the school storyline and the perhaps the instances. The fact that nothing is bind on pickup that matters however means you never really have to go in the instance to get that special skill you want. As far as getting other skills and the cooldown, this is true even of skills within your own school...for it to be really effective you need to get at least two or three skills that make it worth changing styles mid fight. For instance getting the scholar twirling sword (which lasts almost as long as the cool down) AND scholar charging skill pretty much negates the cool down. I am working on the wudang skills myself since they use single sword like my scholar skills do one less weapon to worry about.
i am a fan of big open worlds, there can be loading, but there should be no loading screen. when i remember right, anarchy online had loading between zones, but you could already see the next zone, and there wasnt a screen.
swg did it good too and had the advantage of being a sci fi mmo. i hate lot of instances, teleports and loading screens which kick you out of the world for 10 seconds.
vanguard had a seamless world, didnt it?
Please explain how there was such a thing as sandbox mode in old RPG's, well before you could ever do any of the stuff you claim is required for a game to be a "sandbox".
The problem isn't "what is a sandbox", it's some of you guys that insist on trying to redefine the requirements of a sandbox.
Gary's mod was the most popular purely sandbox game to release in it's day, BECAUSE you could do the things you claim are needed for a game to be a sandbox. Gary's mod did not create or invent the sandbox concept.
Once upon a time is simply meant the ability to play with no restrictions. Such as being able to turn on sandbox mode in Baldurs gate so that you had no levels, and no level requirements; you could just wander around and do whatever you wanted.
Today developers have the abiliity to create much more complex systems that have expand the sandbox beyond simply wandering around aimlessly with nothing to really do, and they can build entire game worlds around unrestricted gameplay.
I know you people will continue to argue against this, you will always be wrong though. Until you can go back in time, and completely change my entire gaming history so that I never, ever, had the ability to turn on an option or to install a mod that enabled sandbox mode in games that were released like 20 years ago.
I have evcen played sandbox RTS games. A variant game mode that removed all of the objectives and just allowed you to play with no goals. the DEVELOPERS told me that it was a sandbox, not other gamers.
A lot of people insist on trying to redefine sandbox the same way some of you will insist that if the game is played from first person view, using shooter combat mechanics, and has PvP that it's not an RPG.
There is no such thing as a "hybrid sandbox". It's either a themepark, were all content is delivered as a progression mechanic and intended to be consumed and moved on from. Or it's a sandbox and you're not given any specific path to take, and puts more emphasis on world building and tools as apposed to consumable content.
What we expect from a sandbox, some more than others, has changed; not what a sandbox is though.
AoW is as much a sandbox as EVE or UO, and no more a hybrid than WoW. AoW does not guide you or restrict the builk of content based on any form of progression. (There are some things like skills and proffesions that may require you to achieve something before it's unlocked. Like joining sholars requires you to become an artist of some sort before you can become a scholar, and some proffesions aren't available until you've achieved a particular level of some skill -kind of the way you have to learn the fundimentals of drawing before you can learn advanced painting techniques-)
Thanks for the response.
Quests and dungeons. This seems to be the only elements that people have offered as "theme park," The thing is, you don't have to do either one past you first two hours of game play. This is how I get 90% sandbox , 10% theme park.
btw - 1 sec loading screen between big zones aint to bad, but yeah would be nice to have none.
The only thing that makes quests or dungeons "themepark" is if they're level restricted.
The moment quests or dungeons become level/ progression based, they aren't "sandbox".
Storyline progression isn't the same thing as not being able to do the quest because you haven't reached X level. Entering a dungeon and not being able to be effective isn't the same thing as entering a dungeon and not being able to hit something because they're X levels above you.
The defining element of a themepark is restriction, a sandbox is unrestricted.
You can do a level 4 mission in EVE online long before you ever have the skills to be able to handle them effectively. NPC standing in order to do the missions becomes neccisary because we are still playing a game and things need balance.
If a guy has a quest I can take in AoW, I can take it, I've not been told I have't reached a certian level and therefore can't undergo the task. Dungeons as far as I'm aware are also the same way? You aren't required to be any certian "level", even though there is a baseline for being effective; again, it's a game and things need balance.
Just like housing doesn't make a game a sandbox, neither does the inclusion of quests. Quests are a classic RPG staple, games are pretty boring without them.
Imagine one sandbox gives you a lot of tools, but very little content.
Then this other sandbox gives you a lot of content, but few tools.
EVE is the first kind of sandbox.
My impression after playing AoW is that it is the second.
People seem to be just confused because the "conent based" sandbox offers all the same stuff you find in a themepark, and they haven't figured out that CONTENT is just CONTENT, and the mechanics that handle the content are what makes it a themepark or a sandbox.
Housing and questing arne't themepark or sandox
Housing I can only access after reaching a particular level is themepark; same for quests. Housing that I can do almost immediately, with my only restrictions being cost, is sandbox.
People keep trying to define the content itself, and that's wrong.
Interesting PoV. I too have played EVE, not long though. What "tools" does EVE offer that AoW does not. Like I said I didn't play EVE long. I do know that EVE has an insane amount of features though.
It depends on the sand you want.
There's a lot of it in AoW, seriously a lot. It's things you can do. No so much, how you can alter the landscape.
But I don't really know the extent of guilds and territory though. If that ends up anything like EVE, AoW overall would dwarf EVE as far as "sand".
EVE gives you all the freedom to build something greater than you, but doesn't have nearly as many "things" to do as AoW. EVE's sand is more defined by the meta game.
I honestly don't know where AoW is going, it could end up with that same level of meta game that EVE has for all I know. Currently AoW just feels like I'm this dude in a historical Chinese setting where I can do whatever I want.
Very well said. The mechanics and restrictions of the content play a very big role in the type of gameplay it offers. A lot of times any content that deviates from the norm gets viewed as sandbox simply because it's a different way of doing it.
For example, setting up a stall to sell. If you compare it to the static auction house that most NA/EU MMOs have, it suddenly seems like some kind of freeform gameplay option and gets mistaken for 'sandbox' content. Now, if those merchants can be killed, kidnapped or 'pursuaded' in order to control what is sold where and by whom, then that's an example of sandbox gameplay. If merchants and traders have tools to set up courier, barter, and trade contracts then that's another example of game mechanics to support sandbox gameplay.
The dungeon example you brought up was a great one. A dungeon is simply an environment for content and interaction. It's how the mechanics of the game support or restrict gameplay within the dungeon that make it sandbox or themepark content.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
It's more focused around larger community play, and the emergent gameplay that results from the tools.
There's a market, destructible items that are all built by the players, and the need for players to obtain the minerals to build those items. Then you can build corps and own space. Individually none of that is really saying mauch.
But my corp happens to produce a lot of materials needed in T2 components. We happen to be one of the largest communities in the game. So we have little interdictions here and there.
"There's an expected dip in the price of yadda yadda coming, prices will be seeing a dive and can be expected to stay that way for several months." Said some guy in market discussion.
Then miners are mad, high sec PoS owners are mad. Other guys made lots of money, and got to see a bunch of other things explode.
EVE depends upon fewer "tools" ( The ability to blow up ships and a player run market) to allow players to have more impact on others.
AoW gives me the impression of depending on a lot of tools to facilitate more interaction. There's much less impact in AoW pvp.
EVE doesn't really offer more tools than AoW. It's more how those tools can be used to impact the wider game.
AoW really just feels like this big open place where I can play a crapton of minigames.
AoW is "similliar" to EVE, but they're really not the same game. I don't think it was correct for some articles to make the comparison in the way that they did. They're both sandboxes, it ends there though. One comment I saw someone make on one of the articles, "Why is like EVE?" was very accurate. AoW got compared to EVE but no real explination was actually given; so people seem to think that they're the same kind of sandbox when they really aren't.
I feel as though you have much less impact on the overal world in AoW than you can in EVE; not due to a lack of tools, but the way in which those tools are implimented for the type of sandbox it is.
AoW seems to be going the PvE/ gamey route, EVE is more based on what kind of content can be created through the interactions of groups of players.
Sandbox or themepark doesn't really matter, it is just a definition. Games need to be fun.
Now this game is the first in a looong time (since AO) that makes me want to get out of bed in the middle of the night to play