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Did ANet Paint Themselves into a Corner?

fat_taddlerfat_taddler Wanaque, NJPosts: 286Member

ANet has put themselves in an interesting dilemma.   Do they continue to add new tiers of gear for PvE and PvP to give players a proverbial carrot or do they cap stats and make all gear purely cosmetic after a certain point (as originally intended).

Seems to me that ANet is pretty much screwed either way.   On the one hand, many  GW2 purists (for lack of a better word) would be upset if ANet introduced tiered gear sets with significant stat increases.

On the other hand, we're seeing more and more players leaving due to lack of meaningful progression once they hit 80.

 

For those that believe stat based gear progression has no place in GW2, do you believe that ANet can continue to introduce creative and challenging PvE content based on the current item stats?   If so, at what point does the ratio of challenge vs. reward cause many players to stop trying?  

 

For those that believe that GW2 needs meaningful gear progression based on stats, what (if anything) would set GW2 apart from games like WoW or Rift which clearly offer more in terms of end-game, gear based progression?

 

 

 

 

 

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Comments

  • tollboothtollbooth grants pass, ORPosts: 298Member
    Or they could make horizontal gear progression and satisfy everyone.
  • TraugarTraugar Robbinsville, NCPosts: 183Member Uncommon
    Welcome to the problem that plagues thempark games.  
  • dariuszpdariuszp PrzeworskPosts: 182Member

    I don't understand you people. I see no reason in playing gear based MMO. Why ? Because there is no sense. Repeat same contaent over and over to get new pair underwear so you can do same thing somewhere else for the sake of new pair of underwear ?

    WTF people ? This is why themeparks MMO never last. Guild Wars 2 maybe is not a sandbox MMO but sure it's fun to play while I can't stand games like TOR, WoW and other sh**.

    I think they should go horizontal in progression. New pair of underwear that have not so different stats but unique look. Throw it around the world + more for hard challenges etc. Add "secret receipes" for crafters and stuff like that. It's like when I go to the shop. I don't want shirt that every single idiot have because it's "new trend". I want dam shirt that no one else have.

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,260Member Uncommon
    There was a thread "......Leaves GW2 in a strange place" Similar topic w/o your well phrased questions. The odd thing about GW2 is that your only form of progession is gear, and it's a very very short run to "best."
  • Rthuth434Rthuth434 uniondale, NYPosts: 346Member
    they took away the horizontal in beta...now they have to add it back. add back traits to the game world(you know those skill point challenges?) and make more of the open world dungeons like you have in some zones. bring back skill capturing.
  • LetsPlayOutsideLetsPlayOutside Los Angeles, CAPosts: 6Member
    I too am curious what Anet is going to do to hold peoples attention.....
  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member

    I think all new games will be this way since it seems people have become polarized about everything - it is damned if you do and damned if you don't.

     

    I would say people have more of a right to complain, if it was a sub game, but it is B2P.

    image

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  • fat_taddlerfat_taddler Wanaque, NJPosts: 286Member
    Originally posted by Traugar
    Welcome to the problem that plagues thempark games.  

    Most of the mainstream themeparks never tried to hide their end-game gear grind.  However, one of the more compelling talking points prior to GW2's launch was the lack of the end-game gear grind.   

    This is why I believe that ANet is at an interesting cross road.   

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,905Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by fat_taddler

     

    On the other hand, we're seeing more and more players leaving due to lack of meaningful progression once they hit 80.

     

    Is this mostly PVEers?  If so, how are the PVPers doing at 80?

     


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • Cod_EyeCod_Eye jarrowPosts: 1,016Member
    Originally posted by dariuszp

    I don't understand you people. I see no reason in playing gear based MMO. Why ? Because there is no sense. Repeat same contaent over and over to get new pair underwear so you can do same thing somewhere else for the sake of new pair of underwear ?

    WTF people ? This is why themeparks MMO never last. Guild Wars 2 maybe is not a sandbox MMO but sure it's fun to play while I can't stand games like TOR, WoW and other sh**.

    I think they should go horizontal in progression. New pair of underwear that have not so different stats but unique look. Throw it around the world + more for hard challenges etc. Add "secret receipes" for crafters and stuff like that. It's like when I go to the shop. I don't want shirt that every single idiot have because it's "new trend". I want dam shirt that no one else have.

    Same thing just different way of doing it imo, GW2 has possibly the worst of the doing it over and over thing, FoM, chaining events anyone? To name but 2.

    Everyone ends up with the same shirt if its the coolest looking in game.

  • apocolusterapocoluster newport news, VAPosts: 1,321Member Uncommon

       They already have their money..ANet I mean...I dont think they are worried too much about it.  Sure they might lose a bit out of cash shop but the bulk of the cash they wre gonna make has been made..

      I think ANet is laughing all the way to the bank personally...

    No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin

  • EzhaeEzhae LondonPosts: 737Member

    Okay, as someone who played GW2 a lot over last months I think, dear OP, you missed the point. 

     

    The issue is not in lack of meaningful progression. Most people that waited for GW2 didn't care for that at all. The problem is that the vertical aka cosmetic progressionis currently built around TP. How so? Well let's take an "average" fancy skin, usually obtained through mystic forge recipe. What does such recipe tend to include? Well 250 ectos and some lodestones (usually 100 or 150). Some others are even more expensive requiring gifts that on their own need 250 lodestones.

    Now. Lodestones are pain to get. They drop rarely and there is only few creatures that have a chance for the lodestone you want around. What it means, to get them yourself you'd have to spend countless hours killing single type of mob in single place. Alternative? Pay 1-2 gold per lodestone on TP. 

    Ectos ont he other hand come from salvaging, around 0.9 ecto per rare salvaged. Sound fair. Problem? Other than trading dungeon tokens for rares, the ways of obtaining them are again based purely on luck and low drop rates. Unreliable, grindy, etc. 

    Conculision? It's simply not fun to aim for any of those aesthetic goals because by commiting yourself to it you force yourself to grind day after day after day, either for materials or gold to buy them. 

     

    So what actually is wrong? Well, the thing that's wrong is that loot doesn't feel rewarding in itself in the game. Big meta event chests, like form killing dragons in most cases give you just bunch of worthless blues with total value around 5 silver. That's not worth the effort/time to do the event really since just farming some chains in cursed shore gives about same/better results. Same time, if you look back to GW1 you had plenty of bosses that had their own unique drop tables and could give you a fancy looking item. In GW2 you are pushed towards playing TP more than the game itself to reach any of the vertical progression goals because in it's current state the game is built around need for gold. 

     

    Bottom line: Looting is not exciting because you don't get anything fun from it. You just get vendor junk. Nothing nice looking, nothing worth much. Instead having that feeling of "Yea! Nice weapon/armor!" it's mor elike "Right... that's 3.50 silver more, I still need 240 gold..."

     

    How to fix? Make loot fun. Make more challenging content that has actual rewards. Give me reasons, as player, to actually bother with doing those meta events other than simply "it's for fun". If a game doesn't feel rewarding in at least some aspect it has a serious flaw. At least in PvP i can get satisfaction from winning.

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,977Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by dariuszp

    I don't understand you people. I see no reason in playing gear based MMO. Why ? Because there is no sense. Repeat same contaent over and over to get new pair underwear so you can do same thing somewhere else for the sake of new pair of underwear ?

    WTF people ? This is why themeparks MMO never last. Guild Wars 2 maybe is not a sandbox MMO but sure it's fun to play while I can't stand games like TOR, WoW and other sh**.

    I think they should go horizontal in progression. New pair of underwear that have not so different stats but unique look. Throw it around the world + more for hard challenges etc. Add "secret receipes" for crafters and stuff like that. It's like when I go to the shop. I don't want shirt that every single idiot have because it's "new trend". I want dam shirt that no one else have.

    It's called continuous progression in terms of character power. For some players, its the driving reason to play MMORPG's, and gear progression is actually only one form that can be employed to satisfy this desire.

    You on the other hand are wired a bit differently, you prefer unique looks or activities to keep yourself interested, the hamster wheel of power progression holds limited appeal.

    I don't think GW2 can serve two masters, ANET is going to have to make a choice and make one group of players happy or the other.  GW1 catered more towards the horizontal progression group, and those folks played it for many years while the power progression crowd sought their entertainment elsewhere.  (I'm one of those)

    Neither style is better than the other, and both have their appeal to certain audiences.

     

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
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  • aljsaljs Sungai PetaniPosts: 2Member

    They already put themselves into a corner with the introduction of FoTM. Now, everytime I am in LA, you will see people camping there waiting for someone or group to shout on map chat "lfm FoTM level 1"...etc

    While other dungeons are rare shout. Mostly CoF and AC. Some CoE here, Arah p4 there, that's it. CM, HoTW, TA and SE on occasions.

    From what I was told, the normal dungeons loot are not mush rewarding after a hard days work. And some like Arah are downright almost impossible for a PUGS group. 

     

    GW2 promised no grinding gears kinda stuff, yet I see people doing the same thing over and over hoping for that exclusive pre-cursor and ascanded gears. Kinda contradicting isn't it. 

    Don't come and say this is not grinding or it is optional. No one point a gun at you to do FoTM to level xx.....etc...

    FoTM itself is already kinda something like grinding, only you get a rotation of dungeons. You can see the daily "lfm FoTM Level 10 daily" runs in LA many times.

    So, if Anet suddenly wants to change the way FoTM is run, those who have already done it lots and lots of time will whine like a child. If they remove FoTM, ascanded rings and back items will skyrocket at the TP.

    Officially, they have stated that they planned to add more dungeons to FoTM, but it is to me just window dressing to disgues the fact that you are doing a grinding, but because of the rotation of dungeons, it is NOT grinding to many people.

    So, FoTM may not be the only reason that ANet has or will paint themselves into a corner, but it will probably be one of the main reason.

  • JoeyMMOJoeyMMO SomewherePosts: 1,326Member

    It will be interesting to see what they do. Do they go for content gating and tiered gear, even if most of the gear grinder have gone back to WoW or Rift already? Or do they come back to the original intent and try to appeal to the threadmill lovers with the paying expansion with new gear and higher level cap?

    Wait and see.

    imageimage
  • GinazGinaz Calgary, ABPosts: 1,731Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by botrytis

    I think all new games will be this way since it seems people have become polarized about everything - it is damned if you do and damned if you don't.

     

    I would say people have more of a right to complain, if it was a sub game, but it is B2P.

    What?  If people paid money for the game, then they have every right to complain if the it isnt going in the direction they want.

    image

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  • asmkm22asmkm22 Anchorage, AKPosts: 1,788Member
    Originally posted by tollbooth
    Or they could make horizontal gear progression and satisfy everyone.

    I don't understand the point of horizontal progression, at least not in MMO's.  It practice, it's just stale.  Especially in a game like GW2, where the total number of stats is pretty low anyway, meaning the total number of useful combinations of stats isn't that great.  So what, they have one gear set that's Power and Crit Damage, and another that's Vitality and condition damage?  There's no real progression with that, only specialization.  If you have an X build, you just equip the X gear.  If you have a Y build, you equip the Y gear.

    It's just kind of boring.  Why even bother with gear at all, and just have stats automatically adjusted based on your current build?  What's really crazy, is there's more variation in equipment in a game like CoD than there is in GW2.

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  • nukempronukempro Hudson, FLPosts: 76Member
    I think that Anet should continue to work on SPVP in the sense of fostering a competitive scene. Spectator mode? New modes? I got my ele to 80 in GW2 and haven't played since. I don't want to farm/grind for gear. I don't care if it has better stats or better looks. IMO the only thing thats gonna draw more players is the PVP and that's provided they work on it. People who want pve gear progression simply have better options on the market!
  • umie214umie214 TOronto, ONPosts: 123Member
    no i dont think so. they will be reworking rewards and giving people a reason to go out into the open world with the February/March patch. adding more cosmetic gear and making Ascended available everywhere is enough of a treadmill for most, while not too much for the purists. 
  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by Ginaz
    Originally posted by botrytis

    I think all new games will be this way since it seems people have become polarized about everything - it is damned if you do and damned if you don't.

     

    I would say people have more of a right to complain, if it was a sub game, but it is B2P.

    What?  If people paid money for the game, then they have every right to complain if the it isnt going in the direction they want.

    If it is a vocal minority versus a silent majority - then what would you do?  Right now this looks like the situation that is going on. If a person got 1000 hours out of GW2 for the price - can you get the same amount out of Skyrim which was the same price?

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • GinazGinaz Calgary, ABPosts: 1,731Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by Ginaz
    Originally posted by botrytis

    I think all new games will be this way since it seems people have become polarized about everything - it is damned if you do and damned if you don't.

     

    I would say people have more of a right to complain, if it was a sub game, but it is B2P.

    What?  If people paid money for the game, then they have every right to complain if the it isnt going in the direction they want.

    If it is a vocal minority versus a silent majority - then what would you do?  Right now this looks like the situation that is going on. If a person got 1000 hours out of GW2 for the price - can you get the same amount out of Skyrim which was the same price?

    So because its only a "minority" that are complaining (though you provide no proof to back up what you are saying) that means they don't have the right to voice thier complaints?  Thats some danergous thinking.

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    Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?

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  • FearumFearum Cinnaminson, NJPosts: 1,166Member Uncommon

    The game really runs in course after a few months with little left to do. My whole guild basically left after the first few months, some never to be seen again lol. I lasted maybe 3 months, there just wasnt anything that was interesting to stay and do. WvW was what I bought the game for and after doing so much it got very boring, plus they havent shown any love to it since launch.

    With no progression in any direction, there is just a wall.

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,260Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by Ginaz
    Originally posted by botrytis

    I think all new games will be this way since it seems people have become polarized about everything - it is damned if you do and damned if you don't.

     

    I would say people have more of a right to complain, if it was a sub game, but it is B2P.

    What?  If people paid money for the game, then they have every right to complain if the it isnt going in the direction they want.

    If it is a vocal minority versus a silent majority - then what would you do?  Right now this looks like the situation that is going on. If a person got 1000 hours out of GW2 for the price - can you get the same amount out of Skyrim which was the same price?

    Why is GW2 be compared to skyrim, and not WoW or EVE?

  • KuppaKuppa Boulder, COPosts: 3,292Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by bcbully
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by Ginaz
    Originally posted by botrytis

    I think all new games will be this way since it seems people have become polarized about everything - it is damned if you do and damned if you don't.

     

    I would say people have more of a right to complain, if it was a sub game, but it is B2P.

    What?  If people paid money for the game, then they have every right to complain if the it isnt going in the direction they want.

    If it is a vocal minority versus a silent majority - then what would you do?  Right now this looks like the situation that is going on. If a person got 1000 hours out of GW2 for the price - can you get the same amount out of Skyrim which was the same price?

    Why is GW2 be compared to skyrim, and not WoW or EVE?

    Payment model.

    image


    image

  • Skooma2Skooma2 Glenview, ILPosts: 694Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by Ginaz
    Originally posted by botrytis

    I think all new games will be this way since it seems people have become polarized about everything - it is damned if you do and damned if you don't.

     

    I would say people have more of a right to complain, if it was a sub game, but it is B2P.

    What?  If people paid money for the game, then they have every right to complain if the it isnt going in the direction they want.

    If it is a vocal minority versus a silent majority - then what would you do?  Right now this looks like the situation that is going on. If a person got 1000 hours out of GW2 for the price - can you get the same amount out of Skyrim which was the same price?

    AS a matter of fact, I have 400+ hours into GW2 (about 15 cents per hour) and 700+ hours into Skyrim (about 8 cents per hour.) I am not quite sure of the point you are making, but I put more time (and found more enjoyment) playing Skyrim than GW2.

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