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World of Warcraft: MOBA Feature Coming in v5.2?

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Comments

  • fivorothfivoroth Member UncommonPosts: 3,916

    MOBA is fun so I don't see why not. Blizzard are finally adding new mechanics and stuff to do at max level besides raiding. MOP added quite a few new mechanices - pet battles, challenge mode, scenarios and two new types of battlegrounds which are not just new maps. They added a farming mechanic and a brawling guild now they are adding a MOBA style bg. 

    Warcraft did not start with DOTA lol. Warcraft 3 was one of the most popular games at the time. DOTA became quite popular though when it got released.

    Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

  • ichihaifuichihaifu Member UncommonPosts: 280
    Originally posted by InFlamestwo

    It has. ArenaNet brought up a MOBA gamemode to PvP a long time ago

    Okay, my apologies, didnt know about this.

  • cronius77cronius77 Member UncommonPosts: 1,652

    herp derp lets now say blizzard is copying guild wars 2 and Anet instead of giving credit to blizzard for actually adding something different to wow instead of more dailys and raids. I seriously feel sorry for blizzard with some people here , they can never win no matter what they do. If it adds variety to pvp let them do it , it doesnt hurt the game .

    Seriously this was an article showing off leaked moba style pvp , nothing about copying or comparing it to guild wars 2 . I seriously wish comments like the ones higher up would get banned for trolling as thats all they are for is to hyjack and start a flame war.

  • NephaeriusNephaerius Member UncommonPosts: 1,671
    Don't play WoW any more myself, but I think this is a cool idea to addon to the game.  Certainly probably helps test the ideas for DOTA Allstars or whatever title Bliz is using for their MOBA game coming through Battle.net.

    Steam: Neph

  • NevulusNevulus Member UncommonPosts: 1,288
    Originally posted by InFlamestwo
    Originally posted by ichihaifu
    Originally posted by GeekieDave
    If people are going to complain and say that they are trying to milk everything they can out of this game, You need to rethink about where World of Warcraft actually came from. Warcraft started as a MOBA game and was a huge hit. I personally look at this new feature to be a homeage to what they were like once and where they have made it to now!

    Warcraft was not a MOBA game lol. Term MOBA was created for the mod called Defence of the Ancients map that was created for Warcraft 3.

     

    Originally posted by InFlamestwo
    Blizzard is doing everything ArenaNet is doing. Doesn't surprise me at all.

    This has nothing to do with ArenaNet dude, dont bring them to this topic.

    -

    Honestly I just want from the bottom of my heart for WoW to just die off already. Its existence itself is destroying many other games that come out that try to imitate it, not that its a good thing itself, but they only try to imitate WoW because its what it is, a giant of a game that has the attention of practically everyone of this world. If it didnt exist, we would have other innovative games. Thankfully we're slowly breaking out of copy-the-wow world of gaming we're so used to seeing.

    Dont get me wrong here, I loved the game for 6 long years, but now its just boring to me as I've already seen everything wow itself has to offer, but it hasnt really presented us anything new during the past couple of years. That is why I feel like it HAS to retire, so that Blizzard could make something new and maybe even better than WoW itself was.

     

    It has. ArenaNet brought up a MOBA gamemode to PvP a long time ago, now WoW want to try to get into e-sport aswell. Milking that cow for years now and still doing it. Icefrog should put a stop to Blizzard.

    Where is the Anet video detailing their moba style pvp gameplay? Because if so I'd probably jump back into gw2.

  • NephaeriusNephaerius Member UncommonPosts: 1,671
    Originally posted by Nevulus
    Originally posted by InFlamestwo
    Originally posted by ichihaifu
    Originally posted by GeekieDave
    If people are going to complain and say that they are trying to milk everything they can out of this game, You need to rethink about where World of Warcraft actually came from. Warcraft started as a MOBA game and was a huge hit. I personally look at this new feature to be a homeage to what they were like once and where they have made it to now!

    Warcraft was not a MOBA game lol. Term MOBA was created for the mod called Defence of the Ancients map that was created for Warcraft 3.

     

    Originally posted by InFlamestwo
    Blizzard is doing everything ArenaNet is doing. Doesn't surprise me at all.

    This has nothing to do with ArenaNet dude, dont bring them to this topic.

    -

    Honestly I just want from the bottom of my heart for WoW to just die off already. Its existence itself is destroying many other games that come out that try to imitate it, not that its a good thing itself, but they only try to imitate WoW because its what it is, a giant of a game that has the attention of practically everyone of this world. If it didnt exist, we would have other innovative games. Thankfully we're slowly breaking out of copy-the-wow world of gaming we're so used to seeing.

    Dont get me wrong here, I loved the game for 6 long years, but now its just boring to me as I've already seen everything wow itself has to offer, but it hasnt really presented us anything new during the past couple of years. That is why I feel like it HAS to retire, so that Blizzard could make something new and maybe even better than WoW itself was.

     

    It has. ArenaNet brought up a MOBA gamemode to PvP a long time ago, now WoW want to try to get into e-sport aswell. Milking that cow for years now and still doing it. Icefrog should put a stop to Blizzard.

    Where is the Anet video detailing their moba style pvp gameplay? Because if so I'd probably jump back into gw2.

    They only talked about it as an idea.  Whether it will ever actually become reality.....we'll see....

    Steam: Neph

  • InFlamestwoInFlamestwo Member Posts: 662
    Originally posted by Nevulus
    Originally posted by InFlamestwo
    Originally posted by ichihaifu
    Originally posted by GeekieDave
    If people are going to complain and say that they are trying to milk everything they can out of this game, You need to rethink about where World of Warcraft actually came from. Warcraft started as a MOBA game and was a huge hit. I personally look at this new feature to be a homeage to what they were like once and where they have made it to now!

    Warcraft was not a MOBA game lol. Term MOBA was created for the mod called Defence of the Ancients map that was created for Warcraft 3.

     

    Originally posted by InFlamestwo
    Blizzard is doing everything ArenaNet is doing. Doesn't surprise me at all.

    This has nothing to do with ArenaNet dude, dont bring them to this topic.

    -

    Honestly I just want from the bottom of my heart for WoW to just die off already. Its existence itself is destroying many other games that come out that try to imitate it, not that its a good thing itself, but they only try to imitate WoW because its what it is, a giant of a game that has the attention of practically everyone of this world. If it didnt exist, we would have other innovative games. Thankfully we're slowly breaking out of copy-the-wow world of gaming we're so used to seeing.

    Dont get me wrong here, I loved the game for 6 long years, but now its just boring to me as I've already seen everything wow itself has to offer, but it hasnt really presented us anything new during the past couple of years. That is why I feel like it HAS to retire, so that Blizzard could make something new and maybe even better than WoW itself was.

     

    It has. ArenaNet brought up a MOBA gamemode to PvP a long time ago, now WoW want to try to get into e-sport aswell. Milking that cow for years now and still doing it. Icefrog should put a stop to Blizzard.

    Where is the Anet video detailing their moba style pvp gameplay? Because if so I'd probably jump back into gw2.

    It's not complete yet. They are still working on it and get into e-sport like with GW1.

    image

  • dllddlld Member UncommonPosts: 615
    Originally posted by coretex666

    I was suggesting this feature for WoW a long time ago.

    I consider it a good step if it's true.

    Same, wanted a dota style BG since before BC a bit late to draw me back though..

    Old AV had some elements of it and i was sad when it turned into a rush enemy lord straight away.

  • GrayGhost79GrayGhost79 Member UncommonPosts: 4,775
    Originally posted by coretex666
    Originally posted by cronius77

    herp derp lets now say blizzard is copying guild wars 2 and Anet instead of giving credit to blizzard for actually adding something different to wow instead of more dailys and raids. I seriously feel sorry for blizzard with some people here , they can never win no matter what they do. If it adds variety to pvp let them do it , it doesnt hurt the game .

    Seriously this was an article showing off leaked moba style pvp , nothing about copying or comparing it to guild wars 2 . I seriously wish comments like the ones higher up would get banned for trolling as thats all they are for is to hyjack and start a flame war.

    Agreed.

    The crusade of some GW fans against other games should stop...

    lol... no crusade, this is just what Blizzard does. No one is faulting them for doing it anymore because 1) It's what they've become known for and 2) They tend to add a lot of polish to what they copy from other games so it generally comes out well. 

     

    If it offends you to see people pointing out something that Blizzard copied then my advice is to stay out of WoW threads. It comes up often and from numerous games lol. 

  • HomituHomitu Member UncommonPosts: 2,030
    I got really excited and wrote several posts about this game mode's potential in an MMO when Arenanet indicated they wanted to try something like this a couple years ago.  Unfortunately, that plan didn't make it to release.  I haven't played WoW since WotlK, but I'd still be excited to see how this turns out, and I hope it makes its way to GW2 in a more polished form in the near future.  Games learning from other games' successes and flaws is a good thing imo.  
  • NevulusNevulus Member UncommonPosts: 1,288

    Wait, so basically Anet spoke about it once and all of a sudden Blizzard stole the idea from them with a complete working model and video details readily available?

    That makes no sense.

     

    That's like me saying "Hey Im going to create a holographic tv" eventhough there are prototypes in the works. Just because I said it FIRST does not make it solely MY idea, especially when some1 else has the WORK to prove it was in the making. SAYING and DOING are 2 different things. Seriously guys, that's an all time low.

  • GrayGhost79GrayGhost79 Member UncommonPosts: 4,775
    Originally posted by coretex666
    Originally posted by GrayGhost79
    Originally posted by coretex666
    Originally posted by cronius77

    herp derp lets now say blizzard is copying guild wars 2 and Anet instead of giving credit to blizzard for actually adding something different to wow instead of more dailys and raids. I seriously feel sorry for blizzard with some people here , they can never win no matter what they do. If it adds variety to pvp let them do it , it doesnt hurt the game .

    Seriously this was an article showing off leaked moba style pvp , nothing about copying or comparing it to guild wars 2 . I seriously wish comments like the ones higher up would get banned for trolling as thats all they are for is to hyjack and start a flame war.

    Agreed.

    The crusade of some GW fans against other games should stop...

    lol... no crusade, this is just what Blizzard does. No one is faulting them for doing it anymore because 1) It's what they've become known for and 2) They tend to add a lot of polish to what they copy from other games so it generally comes out well. 

     

    If it offends you to see people pointing out something that Blizzard copied then my advice is to stay out of WoW threads. It comes up often and from numerous games lol. 

    I would not say something like this if it was just case of WoW.

    Take a look at forums of other games, I dont see TERA, TSW, or SWTOR fans coming there bashing. It's always someone with GW signature. I will not generalize, obviously it's not all of its fans, but some of them are simply too hostile against other games, not just WoW or Blizz in general.

    That's why I used term crusade. Sometimes I can ignore it, but sometimes they are just too annoying.

    I dont mind people saying they copied someone. I dont say its not true. But have they really copied Arena Net in this case? Has Anet invented MOBA games?

    What was their to take from TERA? The game flopped. 

    TSW is niche and only works out because of the combination of mechanics and features on top of the new payment model. To take from it would require a real over haul of WoW for very little gain in population and would actually cost them a great deal of their existing player base. 

    SWTOR lol... 

     

    Did Anet come up with MOBA? No, but again they are the ones that have been working on incorporating it into their MMO which is the exact same thing that Blizzard is now doing. 

    We aren't discussing Blizzard making an MOBA, we are discussing them adding an MOBA to their existing MMO after Anet announced they were working on doing the same. 

     

    So... yes, they really copied. Does it matter? No, as long as they do the new edition to the game well it doesn't matter if it was copied or not. 

  • Johnie-MarzJohnie-Marz Member UncommonPosts: 865
    Originally posted by GrayGhost79
    Originally posted by coretex666
    Originally posted by GrayGhost79
    Originally posted by coretex666
    Originally posted by cronius77

    herp derp lets now say blizzard is copying guild wars 2 and Anet instead of giving credit to blizzard for actually adding something different to wow instead of more dailys and raids. I seriously feel sorry for blizzard with some people here , they can never win no matter what they do. If it adds variety to pvp let them do it , it doesnt hurt the game .

    Seriously this was an article showing off leaked moba style pvp , nothing about copying or comparing it to guild wars 2 . I seriously wish comments like the ones higher up would get banned for trolling as thats all they are for is to hyjack and start a flame war.

    Agreed.

    The crusade of some GW fans against other games should stop...

    lol... no crusade, this is just what Blizzard does. No one is faulting them for doing it anymore because 1) It's what they've become known for and 2) They tend to add a lot of polish to what they copy from other games so it generally comes out well. 

     

    If it offends you to see people pointing out something that Blizzard copied then my advice is to stay out of WoW threads. It comes up often and from numerous games lol. 

    I would not say something like this if it was just case of WoW.

    Take a look at forums of other games, I dont see TERA, TSW, or SWTOR fans coming there bashing. It's always someone with GW signature. I will not generalize, obviously it's not all of its fans, but some of them are simply too hostile against other games, not just WoW or Blizz in general.

    That's why I used term crusade. Sometimes I can ignore it, but sometimes they are just too annoying.

    I dont mind people saying they copied someone. I dont say its not true. But have they really copied Arena Net in this case? Has Anet invented MOBA games?

    What was their to take from TERA? The game flopped. 

    TSW is niche and only works out because of the combination of mechanics and features on top of the new payment model. To take from it would require a real over haul of WoW for very little gain in population and would actually cost them a great deal of their existing player base. 

    SWTOR lol... 

     

    Did Anet come up with MOBA? No, but again they are the ones that have been working on incorporating it into their MMO which is the exact same thing that Blizzard is now doing. 

    We aren't discussing Blizzard making an MOBA, we are discussing them adding an MOBA to their existing MMO after Anet announced they were working on doing the same. 

     

    So... yes, they really copied. Does it matter? No, as long as they do the new edition to the game well it doesn't matter if it was copied or not. 

    So Blizzard creates Warcraft3, Which spawned DOTA, which was copied by Anet, and now fans of Anet are claiming Blizzard is copying them??? Pot-Kettle-Black

  • ArskaaaArskaaa Member RarePosts: 1,265

    Dont matter what they add game. u still get only 1 or if lucky 2 epic in week. so to get full epic geared char takes few month, what ofc means more monthly pays...

     

    Dont matter how good or how much u play.

  • NevulusNevulus Member UncommonPosts: 1,288
    Originally posted by GrayGhost79
    ---------

    What was their to take from TERA? The game flopped. 

    TSW is niche and only works out because of the combination of mechanics and features on top of the new payment model. To take from it would require a real over haul of WoW for very little gain in population and would actually cost them a great deal of their existing player base. 

    SWTOR lol... 

     

    Did Anet come up with MOBA? No, but again they are the ones that have been working on incorporating it into their MMO which is the exact same thing that Blizzard is now doing. 

    We aren't discussing Blizzard making an MOBA, we are discussing them adding an MOBA to their existing MMO after Anet announced they were working on doing the same. 

     

    So... yes, they really copied. Does it matter? No, as long as they do the new edition to the game well it doesn't matter if it was copied or not. 

    Anet copied a mod for Warcraft 3, a Blizzard game. Got it.

     

    I still see no proof anywhere that states when Blizzard started working on this for Wow. As much of a distaste I have for WoW, I can't willingly blind myself to the facts for the sake of groupthink.

  • NevulusNevulus Member UncommonPosts: 1,288
    Originally posted by Johnie-Marz
     

    So Blizzard creates Warcraft3, Which spawned DOTA, which was copied by Anet, and now fans of Anet are claiming Blizzard is copying them??? Pot-Kettle-Black

    lol bingo. They don't see the irony in it. It's hilarious.

  • muffins89muffins89 Member UncommonPosts: 1,585
    Originally posted by InFlamestwo
    Originally posted by GeekieDave
    If people are going to complain and say that they are trying to milk everything they can out of this game, You need to rethink about where World of Warcraft actually came from. Warcraft started as a MOBA game and was a huge hit. I personally look at this new feature to be a homeage to what they were like once and where they have made it to now!

    MOBA started to attract players with DOTA, not Warcraft 3.

    wasn't DoTA a mod for Warcraft 3?

  • expressoexpresso Member UncommonPosts: 2,218

    Yet again Blizz damned if they do damned if they don't - add something new and get accused of copying x,y,z not add it and get accused of not careing about their player base.  

    FYI Blizzard talked about adding MOBA style battlegrounds into WoW when they officaly announced the Mists expansions last year, blizzard has added a tonne of end game content in Mists beyond the usual Raiding and Battlegrounds but for some blizzard can never do enough.

     

  • GrayGhost79GrayGhost79 Member UncommonPosts: 4,775
    Originally posted by Johnie-Marz
    Originally posted by GrayGhost79
    Originally posted by coretex666
    Originally posted by GrayGhost79
    Originally posted by coretex666
    Originally posted by cronius77

    herp derp lets now say blizzard is copying guild wars 2 and Anet instead of giving credit to blizzard for actually adding something different to wow instead of more dailys and raids. I seriously feel sorry for blizzard with some people here , they can never win no matter what they do. If it adds variety to pvp let them do it , it doesnt hurt the game .

    Seriously this was an article showing off leaked moba style pvp , nothing about copying or comparing it to guild wars 2 . I seriously wish comments like the ones higher up would get banned for trolling as thats all they are for is to hyjack and start a flame war.

    Agreed.

    The crusade of some GW fans against other games should stop...

    lol... no crusade, this is just what Blizzard does. No one is faulting them for doing it anymore because 1) It's what they've become known for and 2) They tend to add a lot of polish to what they copy from other games so it generally comes out well. 

     

    If it offends you to see people pointing out something that Blizzard copied then my advice is to stay out of WoW threads. It comes up often and from numerous games lol. 

    I would not say something like this if it was just case of WoW.

    Take a look at forums of other games, I dont see TERA, TSW, or SWTOR fans coming there bashing. It's always someone with GW signature. I will not generalize, obviously it's not all of its fans, but some of them are simply too hostile against other games, not just WoW or Blizz in general.

    That's why I used term crusade. Sometimes I can ignore it, but sometimes they are just too annoying.

    I dont mind people saying they copied someone. I dont say its not true. But have they really copied Arena Net in this case? Has Anet invented MOBA games?

    What was their to take from TERA? The game flopped. 

    TSW is niche and only works out because of the combination of mechanics and features on top of the new payment model. To take from it would require a real over haul of WoW for very little gain in population and would actually cost them a great deal of their existing player base. 

    SWTOR lol... 

     

    Did Anet come up with MOBA? No, but again they are the ones that have been working on incorporating it into their MMO which is the exact same thing that Blizzard is now doing. 

    We aren't discussing Blizzard making an MOBA, we are discussing them adding an MOBA to their existing MMO after Anet announced they were working on doing the same. 

     

    So... yes, they really copied. Does it matter? No, as long as they do the new edition to the game well it doesn't matter if it was copied or not. 

    So Blizzard creates Warcraft3, Which spawned DOTA, which was copied by Anet, and now fans of Anet are claiming Blizzard is copying them??? Pot-Kettle-Black

    A couple of points ... 

    You mean to say AoS spawned DOTA, neither mod was made by Blizzard

    Blizzard nor any other developer has implemented a MOBA style system in an existing full fledged MMO

    Anet announced they were doing this

    Blizzard then followed suit

     

    Which of the above is not true? 

  • expressoexpresso Member UncommonPosts: 2,218
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Nevulus
    Originally posted by Johnie-Marz
     

    So Blizzard copied C&C with Warcraft1/2/3, Which spawned DOTA, which was copied by Anet, and now fans of Anet are claiming Blizzard is copying them??? Pot-Kettle-Black

    lol bingo. They don't see the irony in it. It's hilarious.

    Fixed that for you.

    It's not like Blizz isn't in the copy / paste business which I think was the point.  Even if not, Blizz does a ton of copy / paste.  This is most certainly in direct response to the popularity of GW2 and the mobas.  If they had really been interested in integrating it into the game just as an improvement then they could have done so long ago.  They didn't and the timing is telling.

    Blizz deserves some criticism.  It doesn't seem like they have a focused design goal anymore.  They seem to be taking the SoE approach of "add it in, bolt it on, and see if it works".  The pokemon pet battles is one of the latest examples of this.  I'm sure they're fun and the moba system probably will be too, but let's be honest about what they're reaching for here and why.

     

    cept C&C was relased a year after WC..... but anyway Blizzard are keeping up with trends - they might not be driving them but they sure do know what is hot and what is not and prompty provides their player base with what they want, thats good business no?

  • darkrain21darkrain21 Member UncommonPosts: 383
    Originally posted by InFlamestwo
    Originally posted by ichihaifu
    Originally posted by GeekieDave
    If people are going to complain and say that they are trying to milk everything they can out of this game, You need to rethink about where World of Warcraft actually came from. Warcraft started as a MOBA game and was a huge hit. I personally look at this new feature to be a homeage to what they were like once and where they have made it to now!

    Warcraft was not a MOBA game lol. Term MOBA was created for the mod called Defence of the Ancients map that was created for Warcraft 3.

     

    Originally posted by InFlamestwo
    Blizzard is doing everything ArenaNet is doing. Doesn't surprise me at all.

    This has nothing to do with ArenaNet dude, dont bring them to this topic.

    -

    Honestly I just want from the bottom of my heart for WoW to just die off already. Its existence itself is destroying many other games that come out that try to imitate it, not that its a good thing itself, but they only try to imitate WoW because its what it is, a giant of a game that has the attention of practically everyone of this world. If it didnt exist, we would have other innovative games. Thankfully we're slowly breaking out of copy-the-wow world of gaming we're so used to seeing.

    Dont get me wrong here, I loved the game for 6 long years, but now its just boring to me as I've already seen everything wow itself has to offer, but it hasnt really presented us anything new during the past couple of years. That is why I feel like it HAS to retire, so that Blizzard could make something new and maybe even better than WoW itself was.

     

    It has. ArenaNet brought up a MOBA gamemode to PvP a long time ago, now WoW want to try to get into e-sport aswell. Milking that cow for years now and still doing it. Icefrog should put a stop to Blizzard.

    Wow is already an e-sport and has been since before LoL made an apperance and GW2 got denied because it didnt have a diverse enough PVP system.

  • JudgeUKJudgeUK Member RarePosts: 1,672
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Nevulus
    Originally posted by Johnie-Marz
     

    So Blizzard copied C&C with Warcraft1/2/3, Which spawned DOTA, which was copied by Anet, and now fans of Anet are claiming Blizzard is copying them??? Pot-Kettle-Black

    lol bingo. They don't see the irony in it. It's hilarious.

    Fixed that for you.

    It's not like Blizz isn't in the copy / paste business which I think was the point.  Even if not, Blizz does a ton of copy / paste.  This is most certainly in direct response to the popularity of GW2 and the mobas.  If they had really been interested in integrating it into the game just as an improvement then they could have done so long ago.  They didn't and the timing is telling.

    Blizz deserves some criticism.  It doesn't seem like they have a focused design goal anymore.  They seem to be taking the SoE approach of "add it in, bolt it on, and see if it works".  The pokemon pet battles is one of the latest examples of this.  I'm sure they're fun and the moba system probably will be too, but let's be honest about what they're reaching for here and why.

     

    Reaching for? Are you serious?  What is any game reaching for...grow the playerbase, or at the least maintain the current numbers.

    If it's a sub P2P there's more focus on the sub numbers, with some cash shop fluff

    It it's F2P,  numbers and milking the cash shop.

     

  • PsychowPsychow Member Posts: 1,784
    I'll bet this MOBA feature involves Battle Pets. Should be a fun side-game for people who like MOBAs.
  • InFlamestwoInFlamestwo Member Posts: 662
    Originally posted by muffins89
    Originally posted by InFlamestwo
    Originally posted by GeekieDave
    If people are going to complain and say that they are trying to milk everything they can out of this game, You need to rethink about where World of Warcraft actually came from. Warcraft started as a MOBA game and was a huge hit. I personally look at this new feature to be a homeage to what they were like once and where they have made it to now!

    MOBA started to attract players with DOTA, not Warcraft 3.

    wasn't DoTA a mod for Warcraft 3?

    It's a mod. Icefrog created Dota and he's not a part of Blizzard.

    image

  • NevulusNevulus Member UncommonPosts: 1,288
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Nevulus
    Originally posted by Johnie-Marz
     

    So Blizzard copied C&C with Warcraft1/2/3, Which spawned DOTA, which was copied by Anet, and now fans of Anet are claiming Blizzard is copying them??? Pot-Kettle-Black

    lol bingo. They don't see the irony in it. It's hilarious.

    Fixed that for you. (with a lie)

    C&C release 1995

    Warcraft release 1994

    Explain how they copied C&C? Using telepathic powers? crystal ball?   :)

     

    Please refrain from spreading lies.

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