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Single Player games passing MMOs?

chryseschryses LondonPosts: 1,453Member Uncommon

9 years ago when I found MMO's I thought single player games were dead and gone and I would never look back. 

I really feel that the single player games being released to date (on all platforms) are really pushing boundaries and from my own personal experience, nearly all my hard core MMO gamer mates have migrated back to the single player market. 

Main reasons:

- MMO's are just not evolving fast enough.  Too many cookie cutters

- Hype versus payoff.  Unfortunately for the past 5 years not one game has lived up to their hype WAR, SWTOR, Vanguard, AoC list goes on...

- Dumbing down of genre from the true RPG throw back to the D&D paper based gaming etc.  Crafting is watered down alongside exploration etc.

Single Player Games

- Have gone through several evolution steps for all platforms, graphics and sound.

- Story lines have been developed and supported by in-depth extensive worlds

- online capabilities that still allow for co-op, multi player, score boards etc.

- Immersion is incredible.

 

I would consider myself a hardcore MMO lover but for the past year I have only played MMO games in between single player titles e.g. Modern Warfare 4, Red Dead Remption, Far Cry 3 now (incredible game), XCOM, Skyrim, Civ 5.

Maybe its a time/age thing but it seems myself and ALL my friends are returning back to single player games, table top and board games for the interaction.  We all play MMO's still but we are all really in a holding pattern waiting to see when they will evolve past their current form and most of us are losing interest fast.

Either way I feel single player games are leading the way in development and MMO's are just not keeping up.

 

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Comments

  • WickedjellyWickedjelly Yahoo, COPosts: 4,990Member

    MMOs are simply stagnating right now. Know quite a few that have left and are now playing other genres of gaming due to this.

    Many of them still enjoy the multiplayer aspect in their game of choice.

    1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

    2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

    3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  • greywolf2002greywolf2002 ViveiroPosts: 17Member

    I can totally agree and relate to what you have exposed. MMO game market needs to evolve somehow if it wants to recover it's quality.

     

    The problem here is that they don't want to do it. They are fine releasing shitty games that people will play for some weeks/months, because those games are cheap to produce and a "low risk" inversion.

    It's pretty much the same trouble as with anything else out there nowadays: they give us cheap, low-medium quality products, because they realized two things:

    1)Lots of people will use/buy/rent them anyway, because they can't afford something more expensive.

    2)If they don't give us more options, we can only: a)get what they give us, or b)don't get anything at all.

     

    Reality is always a sad thing...

  • RoxtarrRoxtarr Freeland, MI, MIPosts: 1,122Member

    I find two reasons single-player games are surpassing MMO's:

    #1. Building a gaming community no longer requires gamers to be in the same game.  It's very easy to connect with other gamers regardless of what they are playing.  Social media has made connecting with gamers simple and easy.  This simply wasn't the case when MMO's first hit the scene.  If you wanted to find a community of gamers, you had to all be in the same game.

    #2. MMO's are simply too risky to try anything amazing.  I hate to say it, but indie games are kicking the pants off of AAA when it comes to creativity and experimentation.  Indie MMO's are few and far between simply because it's too expensive and way too much manpower is needed to pull them off.  Most indie MMO's struggle with overhead and long term viability.  

    If in 1982 we played with the current mentality, we would have burned down all the pac man games since the red ghost was clearly OP. Instead we just got better at the game.
    image

  • DrunkWolfDrunkWolf Posts: 1,180Member Uncommon

    single player games arnt passing MMOs.

    MMOs are going backwards, every new mmo that comes out has more resitrction, more linear paths, more story told to you instead of you makeing your own story as you go. they are more dumbed down than ever, and honestly they are just single player games with a bunch of people either in your way or running around doing their own ( story quest ) with no need to interact with them.

    when i first started in MMOs back in 2000, i thought damn i cant wait to see how much they progress in 10 years its going to be awsome.... boy was i wrong, it has gone backwards at a alarming rate.

  • AmsaiAmsai Montgomery, ALPosts: 88Member Uncommon

    I kinda get what the OP is saying.

     

    Honestly, I have had a lot of fun with MMOs. The most fun Ive ever had with any game was with FFXI CoP xpac. But some of my tastes have changed, and while im not opposed to themeparks, im not fully on board with sandboxes. There are bits of both that I find attractive. To say nothing of my time being more limited with each passing year (not a family man, just increasing responsibility at work). Add to that having to deal with stupid, rude, or people who have insane ideas that are completely self destructive to a game (looking at you FFXIV Lodestone Tanaka defense force >.> yeesh) And then there are games that could be so aweome if not for the fascination of PvP in mmos (more have some form then not)

    Doesnt really matter, Ive been waiting for  (LOL) my "perfect" mmo. Yea yea I know, laugh it up.  Im sure some of my ideas for an MMO would offend both sandbox and themepark players alike such as: no pvp ever, crafting and gathering with no economy at all (you want shit? kill for it or make it your damn self), etc.

    The fact is that perfect mmo will never come, the mmo market has become "popular" and most businesses cant afford to cater to my nonsense. So you try to find a game that is interesting enough and has enough pros to outweigh the cons, and you shut the fuck up and enjoy your game.

    That being said, if anyone ever came out with a game like oblivion/skyrim, and supported it for years with frequent content updates, and not just a handful of DLC, and allowed multiple players to join you on your world. I would gladly pay a subscription fee for many years. Play solo most of the time, and party up when friends can.

    However, that isnt likely to happen. Sometimes people say go play a single player RPG, and they are fun for a time. But its not like an MMO that I can play for years, because there is no social aspect/comradery and the game "ends"

    CoS does sound like the closest thing ive seen to this, BUT I dont really believe they can pull it off. Plus there are a few things I learned for there forums that Im not sure I like or straight up hate.

  • coretex666coretex666 PraguePosts: 1,928Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by chryses

    9 years ago when I found MMO's I thought single player games were dead and gone and I would never look back. 

    I really feel that the single player games being released to date (on all platforms) are really pushing boundaries and from my own personal experience, nearly all my hard core MMO gamer mates have migrated back to the single player market. 

    Main reasons:

    - MMO's are just not evolving fast enough.  Too many cookie cutters

    - Hype versus payoff.  Unfortunately for the past 5 years not one game has lived up to their hype WAR, SWTOR, Vanguard, AoC list goes on...

    - Dumbing down of genre from the true RPG throw back to the D&D paper based gaming etc.  Crafting is watered down alongside exploration etc.

    Single Player Games

    - Have gone through several evolution steps for all platforms, graphics and sound.

    - Story lines have been developed and supported by in-depth extensive worlds

    - online capabilities that still allow for co-op, multi player, score boards etc.

    - Immersion is incredible.

     

    I would consider myself a hardcore MMO lover but for the past year I have only played MMO games in between single player titles e.g. Modern Warfare 4, Red Dead Remption, Far Cry 3 now (incredible game), XCOM, Skyrim, Civ 5.

    Maybe its a time/age thing but it seems myself and ALL my friends are returning back to single player games, table top and board games for the interaction.  We all play MMO's still but we are all really in a holding pattern waiting to see when they will evolve past their current form and most of us are losing interest fast.

    Either way I feel single player games are leading the way in development and MMO's are just not keeping up.

     

    I have to say that the older I get, the less attractive single player games are for me.

    There are some exceptions, such as XCOM which you mentioned. I finished the game without losing interest. In fact, I was kind of disappointed when I finished the game. It was at a point when I felt like I am finally getting somewhere in the game and was looking forward to playing many more hours. I wish someone made a XCOM based MMO. The research aspect would have so much potential.

    Anyway, I do agree that MMORPGs are currently at a really bad state. I am not subscribed to any MMO and tend to keep low expectations regarding the ones I am looking forward to. I still hope that the new wave of sandbox games that are on the horizon will bring some fresh air.

    I realized that it may be more fun to actually develop some RPG instead of playing the ones that are out there. Developing a MMO would require too many resources, so I started developing a RPG board game. I find myself having more fun making an interesting RPG rather than playing current MMOs.

    Waiting for L2 EU Classic

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    In some ways games like skyrim and farcry 3 feel more like mmos than mmos.

    I don't think there's a problem with pvp (there was until recently)
    But the likes of gw2 and ps2 and hopefully soon dfuw have brought back dynamic fun pvp

    But mmo pve has gotten very stale and seems stuck in the same vein of EQ from many years ago. Pve needs to evolve, it lacks compared to many single player games, probably because we are so used to it by now.
  • WickedjellyWickedjelly Yahoo, COPosts: 4,990Member
    Originally posted by coretex666
    There are some exceptions, such as XCOM which you mentioned. I finished the game without losing interest. In fact, I was kind of disappointed when I finished the game. It was at a point when I felt like I am finally getting somewhere in the game and was looking forward to playing many more hours.
    That game is really good. Perfect blend of gameplay elements far as I'm concerned. I don't even normally care for that style of gameplay or the alien sci fi schtick. However, that game was simply a blast to play.

    1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

    2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

    3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  • MethiosMethios Brandywine, MDPosts: 157Member
    Originally posted by DrunkWolf

    single player games arnt passing MMOs.

    MMOs are going backwards, every new mmo that comes out has more resitrction, more linear paths, more story told to you instead of you makeing your own story as you go. they are more dumbed down than ever, and honestly they are just single player games with a bunch of people either in your way or running around doing their own ( story quest ) with no need to interact with them.

    when i first started in MMOs back in 2000, i thought damn i cant wait to see how much they progress in 10 years its going to be awsome.... boy was i wrong, it has gone backwards at a alarming rate.

    I agree that MMORPGs have gone backwards since WoW and now half the games being developed aren't even finished when they are released anymore that I don't understand.

  • BoardwalkerBoardwalker Austin, TXPosts: 384Member Uncommon

    Nope, they aren't.

     

    Well, not entirely. The "bitter vets" on this site who post their myopic views of the MMORPG industry tend to answer "yes" to the OP's question. However, I imagine for most non-jaded gamers (which is the majority of gamers), MMOs are doing just fine.

     

    Personally, I've been playing computer games since the early 80s, but I haven't touched a single-player game since I logged into my first MMO over a decade ago. Playing single-player games is like masturbation: playing by yourself can be ok, but once you play with others, there is no going back. (Well, unless you have don't have internet access, that is.)

    They can adjust a game all day, but they can't help the issue between the keyboard and the chair.
    Played: UO, DAoC, AC, WoW, EVE, TR, WAR, Aion, Rift, SWTOR, GW2, TSW, ESO, Elite:D
    Play EVE for free for 21 days

  • coretex666coretex666 PraguePosts: 1,928Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Boardwalker

    Nope, they aren't.

     

    Well, not entirely. The "bitter vets" on this site who post their myopic views of the MMORPG industry tend to answer "yes" to the OP's question. However, I imagine for most non-jaded gamers (which is the majority of gamers), MMOs are doing just fine.

     

    Personally, I've been playing computer games since the early 80s, but I haven't touched a single-player game since I logged into my first MMO over a decade ago. Playing single-player games is like masturbation: playing by yourself can be ok, but once you play with others, there is no going back. (Well, unless you have don't have internet access, that is.)

    It's a little off topic, but may I ask which MMO / MMOs are you currently playing?

    Waiting for L2 EU Classic

  • WickedjellyWickedjelly Yahoo, COPosts: 4,990Member
    Originally posted by Boardwalker

    Nope, they aren't.

     

    Well, not entirely. The "bitter vets" on this site who post their myopic views of the MMORPG industry tend to answer "yes" to the OP's question. However, I imagine for most non-jaded gamers (which is the majority of gamers), MMOs are doing just fine.

     

    Personally, I've been playing computer games since the early 80s, but I haven't touched a single-player game since I logged into my first MMO over a decade ago. Playing single-player games is like masturbation: playing by yourself can be ok, but once you play with others, there is no going back. (Well, unless you have don't have internet access, that is.)

    Don't agree at all. While I don't think mmos are failing by any means not everyone that has left is bitter or somehow jaded as you seem to think.

    Many of them still do multiplayer in their game of choice just in a different genre.

    1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

    2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

    3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  • BoardwalkerBoardwalker Austin, TXPosts: 384Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by coretex666

     

    It's a little off topic, but may I ask which MMO / MMOs are you currently playing?

     

    I'm playing EVE and some WoW right now. I also play TSW every now and then.

    They can adjust a game all day, but they can't help the issue between the keyboard and the chair.
    Played: UO, DAoC, AC, WoW, EVE, TR, WAR, Aion, Rift, SWTOR, GW2, TSW, ESO, Elite:D
    Play EVE for free for 21 days

  • BoardwalkerBoardwalker Austin, TXPosts: 384Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Wickedjelly
    Originally posted by Boardwalker

    Nope, they aren't.

     

    Well, not entirely. The "bitter vets" on this site who post their myopic views of the MMORPG industry tend to answer "yes" to the OP's question. However, I imagine for most non-jaded gamers (which is the majority of gamers), MMOs are doing just fine.

     

    Personally, I've been playing computer games since the early 80s, but I haven't touched a single-player game since I logged into my first MMO over a decade ago. Playing single-player games is like masturbation: playing by yourself can be ok, but once you play with others, there is no going back. (Well, unless you have don't have internet access, that is.)

    Don't agree at all. While I don't think mmos are failing by any means not everyone that has left is bitter or somehow jaded as you seem to think.

    Many of them still do multiplayer in their game of choice just in a different genre.

     

    Perhaps I was a little harsh. But it often seems that most of the people who post on this site have a very narrow, and jaded, view of MMORPGs and their current state.  I think that 2012 was a banner year for MMORPGs, so I guess I'll have to agree to disagree with many of the people here.

    They can adjust a game all day, but they can't help the issue between the keyboard and the chair.
    Played: UO, DAoC, AC, WoW, EVE, TR, WAR, Aion, Rift, SWTOR, GW2, TSW, ESO, Elite:D
    Play EVE for free for 21 days

  • jtcgsjtcgs New Port Richey, ILPosts: 1,777Member

    I would have to disagree with you OP. There have been far too many great single player RPGs to come out in the last 9 years.

    Dragons Age Origins.

    Oblivion.

    Fallout 3.

    Mass Effect 1 & 2

    Knights of the Old Republic (2003) & 2

    Baldurs Gate 2

    Final Fantasy 10

    “I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Matrix, NYPosts: 911Member Uncommon
    And all this time I thought Skyrim and Far Cry 3 were MMOs that don't have anyone playing. And, when I hop onto WoW, SWTOR and other very similar games, I start playing a singleplayer game with multiplayer added to it.

    image
  • GrayImpactGrayImpact NetherlandsPosts: 985Member Uncommon

    Pretty much agree, MMO's have become totally boring, and It's hard to get excited for any of them anymore.

    All this hype never delivers, and I'm tired of the lack of progression in MMO's, they're all the same.

     

    Rather then MMO's I've been looking for Co-Op games, 2-3-4 player, co-op campaigns or missions, anything.

    At least it gives me some variety, even the "revolutionary games" like guild wars 2, really improve little on the base concept of MMO for the past years.

  • SidraketSidraket merced, CAPosts: 79Member
    Originally posted by Boardwalker
    Originally posted by Wickedjelly
    Originally posted by Boardwalker

    Nope, they aren't.

     

    Well, not entirely. The "bitter vets" on this site who post their myopic views of the MMORPG industry tend to answer "yes" to the OP's question. However, I imagine for most non-jaded gamers (which is the majority of gamers), MMOs are doing just fine.

     

    Personally, I've been playing computer games since the early 80s, but I haven't touched a single-player game since I logged into my first MMO over a decade ago. Playing single-player games is like masturbation: playing by yourself can be ok, but once you play with others, there is no going back. (Well, unless you have don't have internet access, that is.)

    Don't agree at all. While I don't think mmos are failing by any means not everyone that has left is bitter or somehow jaded as you seem to think.

    Many of them still do multiplayer in their game of choice just in a different genre.

     

    Perhaps I was a little harsh. But it often seems that most of the people who post on this site have a very narrow, and jaded, view of MMORPGs and their current state.  I think that 2012 was a banner year for MMORPGs, so I guess I'll have to agree to disagree with many of the people here.

    Youre playing EVE, which is one of the few really open mmos out there. The vast majority of mmos are all more or less clones of each other mechanically and follow very linear paths.

    Go play an elder scrolls game, any of them. When i first played one back in like 2000 or 2001, it felt exactly like an 'offline mmo' of the time, just with out people and different combat mechanics. I remember thinking that this was pretty much an offline mmo.

    If you compare them to modern day mmos you see where they are lacking. Modern mmos are much more linear, are much more focused on creating repetitive endgame content and getting the player to it quickly and effortlessly than fleshing out a vast living world to exist in.

    EVE is a world to exist in. Most mmos arent anymore.
  • KanethKaneth Posts: 1,930Member Uncommon

    If games like Skyrim were to add a multiplayer function to the game officially, I would agree. However, there are still many single player games being made to this day without any form of multiplayer support (which boggles my mind). The overwhelming surge of social media the past decade will only help mmos in the long run.

    When CoH came out, I had made statements that this type of mmo would be seen more widely in the marketplace. MMOs created to keep folks entertained for 2-3 month stints at a time. However, where I guessed wrong was that publishers would develop and release many of these types of mmos over similar time spans and have tiered subscription models to allow access to multiple games at the same time.

    Developers really need to understand their fanbase better, and create a game with them in mind. For far too long we have been fed WoW-like clones of games, and games that are released in unfinished states. I don't believe we're going to see a ton of relief from kickstarter mmos (we will see more innovation at least).

    Hell, even as good as GW2 is, the game still has a ton of flaws and is far from perfect.

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,867Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by chrysesnearly all my hard core MMO gamer mates have migrated back to the single player market

    Great argument there - your mates no longer play MMOs therefore MMO market is dying.

    Seriously...

    It is the opposite. The market evolved, you and your mates did not therefore they are left with no games fitting their appeal and why they moved on.

    I guess it is a part of that comes with maturity/aging - you start thinking how past times were great and today sucks. All subjective illusion tho...

    People mostly do not like changes.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,673Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by chryses

    Either way I feel single player games are leading the way in development and MMO's are just not keeping up.

    Single player games have always led the way and will always lead the way. There's more control over the scene which means the graphics can be better and environments richer. There's more control over each step of the story which means storylines can be personalized and deeper.

    MMOs are a social, multiplayer platform. That is where they excel. Basically, 

    • If you're looking for dev story, play a CRPG.
    • If you're looking for player story, play a sandbox/social focused MMORPG.
    • If you're looking for a 3D multiplayer hack-n-slask, play one of the hundreds of EQ/WOW variants
     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • coretex666coretex666 PraguePosts: 1,928Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by chryses

     

    nearly all my hard core MMO gamer mates have migrated back to the single player market


     

    Great argument there - your mates no longer play MMOs therefore MMO market is dying.

    Seriously...

    It is the opposite. The market evolved, you and your mates did not therefore they are left with no games fitting their appeal and why they moved on.

    I guess it is a part of that comes with maturity/aging - you start thinking how past times were great and today sucks. All subjective illusion tho...

    People mostly do not like changes.

    I think that the MMO community is evolving, while the games arent which is the problem here. There are many people left with no games fitting their appeal not just bitter vets or the OP and their friends.

    It probably is related to maturity / aging, but in a different way than you think. While large part of the MMO community consists of adults, the developers somehow tend to ignore it and keep releasing shallow games which cannot entertain adults for longer than several months.

    You say that people mostly do not like changes, but what changes?Isnt it change what OP and many other people including me call for? If we didnt like change, we would be all happily playing one of the themeparks released since WoW and this thread would not exist just like tons of those threads "we dont want games, we want worlds". How many of them have been created? Who do you think is making these threads? The young generation? The older ones who do not like change? Nobody is saying that old games were awesome or asking for new MMOs to get back to their roots.

    I disagree with what you say as I tend to believe that people are calling for evolution of MMOs which somehow stopped in 2004.

    Waiting for L2 EU Classic

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,867Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by coretex666I think that the MMO community is evolving, while the games arent which is the problem here.

    If that was true, there would be no players spending money on these games, which isn't the case as it is proven by rapidly growing MMO market in past years.


    What changes? The change from "hardcore" to casual. People indeed want games, not worlds.



    Originally posted by coretex666

    I disagree with what you say as I tend to believe that people are calling for evolution of MMOs which somehow stopped in 2004.

    This pretty much proves my point and demonstrates how some people are unable to accept changes... MMOs did evolve, just not in your desired direction, it is still evolution tho.

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by Sodahz
    Originally posted by DrunkWolf

    single player games arnt passing MMOs.

    MMOs are going backwards, every new mmo that comes out has more resitrction, more linear paths, more story told to you instead of you makeing your own story as you go. they are more dumbed down than ever, and honestly they are just single player games with a bunch of people either in your way or running around doing their own ( story quest ) with no need to interact with them.

    when i first started in MMOs back in 2000, i thought damn i cant wait to see how much they progress in 10 years its going to be awsome.... boy was i wrong, it has gone backwards at a alarming rate.

    I agree that MMORPGs have gone backwards since WoW and now half the games being developed aren't even finished when they are released anymore that I don't understand.

    WoW wasn't finished - JEEZ - I guess we are looking through rose-colored glasses. WoW had the EXACT same type of release that D3 did - people coudln't log in, the game had huge bugs, etc.

     

    Please - let's not have a revisionist history - WoW's released was one of the most flawed ever.

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • BizkitNLBizkitNL NetherlandsPosts: 2,280Member Common
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by Sodahz
    Originally posted by DrunkWolf

    single player games arnt passing MMOs.

    MMOs are going backwards, every new mmo that comes out has more resitrction, more linear paths, more story told to you instead of you makeing your own story as you go. they are more dumbed down than ever, and honestly they are just single player games with a bunch of people either in your way or running around doing their own ( story quest ) with no need to interact with them.

    when i first started in MMOs back in 2000, i thought damn i cant wait to see how much they progress in 10 years its going to be awsome.... boy was i wrong, it has gone backwards at a alarming rate.

    I agree that MMORPGs have gone backwards since WoW and now half the games being developed aren't even finished when they are released anymore that I don't understand.

    WoW wasn't finished - JEEZ - I guess we are looking through rose-colored glasses. WoW had the EXACT same type of release that D3 did - people coudln't log in, the game had huge bugs, etc.

     

    Please - let's not have a revisionist history - WoW's released was one of the most flawed ever.

    And you're doing the exact opposite. Blizzard, at that time, underestimated it's fanbase, which resulted in queues and latency problems.

    Content-wise, however.....yeah.

    10
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