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Do I really need to be leet?

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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Merilirem
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Scot

    Gaming systems take a lot of time, trying out new ideas or reintroducing something that was good from the past is very expensive. Sticking with the tried and trusted is the best way to ensure a return on investment. But that does not mean we have ended up with the best gaming systems and gameplay.

    Isn't that a contradiction? If it was good, and certainly "tried" in the past, shouldn't it be trusted?

    The reason "tried" ideas were left behind is because they are not good enough.

    In the first place cramming all the "good" idea's into one game could jut make a huge mess. An idea has to be in the right context. To use a superior crafting system to make weapons is probably not going to be much use in My little pony online. A game should be made as a game and not as an attempt to placate people who want convenience or something cool that games always have these days. It should attempt to let the players enjoy the offered playstyles without compromising the games integrity through gimmicks and payoff. Not pointing any fingers though, just sayin a good idea can be a failure if done in the wrong manner or just plain badly. Like if your friends list randomly added trolls and flamers to itself, or your guilds didn't tell you who was in them and had a 20 player limit.

    Sure. But we are talking abotu good ideas being abandoned. If an idea is truly good, there must be a way to use it "correctly" to make a good game. Otherwise, the idea is not good.

     

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,741

    Its true that you have to be careful what you bring back and not every good design idea should be in every MMO. But part of the problem is we don't have many types of MMO, we have one version built on a WoW template. The good ideas are always going to be from the same subset of MMO ideas if thats the case.

  • MeriliremMerilirem Member Posts: 77
    Originally posted by Scot

    Its true that you have to be careful what you bring back and not every good design idea should be in every MMO. But part of the problem is we don't have many types of MMO, we have one version built on a WoW template. The good ideas are always going to be from the same subset of MMO ideas if thats the case.

    Which is why a game needs to be built from the ground up abandoning any premade conceptions and perfectly good idea's that don't fit into the games own mechanics and feel. Simply making a better mousetrap will only lead to mediocrity and eventual demise. An mmo should be made ignoring the common sense and basic "rights" players have come to expect. Otherwise it's just like saying players are all clones who want candy.

    If a butterfly learnt to speak, to live in human society, paid its bills, had a job, lived in a fancy house and married a human, is it human?

    Now what if that same butterfly knew how to write code better than any human and had years of experience in the game industry, would that make it a game designer?

    If u wouldn't let a construction worker design your house, then why let a programmer design your world?

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Scot

    Its true that you have to be careful what you bring back and not every good design idea should be in every MMO. But part of the problem is we don't have many types of MMO, we have one version built on a WoW template. The good ideas are always going to be from the same subset of MMO ideas if thats the case.

    That is obviously not true. I play STO, not WOW because it provides a different world, very different mechanics, and feel.

    Lastly, you are very limited if you only consider "MMOs". There are a lot of innovative developments in spaces adjacent to MMOs (i.e. games that are like MMOs, but not quite in a strict definition). ARPGs, MOBAs, games like WOT .... the new wave is online games with some MMO elements. Look at Destiny.

    Look at how many ARPGs are incorporating MMO ideas (D3, PoE, Marvel Heroes) and how many MMOs are going that direction (Neverwinter). Look at all the arena based pvp games (WOT, LOL ....).

    Look at all the FPS with MMO ideas (PS2, Firefall ...).

    Not only there are new ideas. Dev are taking risks. It is a good time.

  • MeriliremMerilirem Member Posts: 77
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Scot

    Its true that you have to be careful what you bring back and not every good design idea should be in every MMO. But part of the problem is we don't have many types of MMO, we have one version built on a WoW template. The good ideas are always going to be from the same subset of MMO ideas if thats the case.

    That is obviously not true. I play STO, not WOW because it provides a different world, very different mechanics, and feel.

    Lastly, you are very limited if you only consider "MMOs". There are a lot of innovative developments in spaces adjacent to MMOs (i.e. games that are like MMOs, but not quite in a strict definition). ARPGs, MOBAs, games like WOT .... the new wave is online games with some MMO elements. Look at Destiny.

    Look at how many ARPGs are incorporating MMO ideas (D3, PoE, Marvel Heroes) and how many MMOs are going that direction (Neverwinter). Look at all the arena based pvp games (WOT, LOL ....).

    Look at all the FPS with MMO ideas (PS2, Firefall ...).

    Not only there are new ideas. Dev are taking risks. It is a good time.

    I won't argue the legitimacy or value of those you have mentioned. I simply think an online world is what we lack. What we have now are frankenstinian creations in a survival of the fittest situation, which is fine. It is simply not enough for me. Enjoying one game does not mean you don't like another. I am not advocating other people take the risk of making a successful game for me either. I discuss and learn and make my own mind up, using my newfound understanding to come up with my own designs. I advocate the existence of a market for such games and use questions and polls to affirm my beliefs. If the feedback shows my own ignorance thats fine too. All the games you mentioned are made under the same spirit of commercial game through existing sucess.

    If a butterfly learnt to speak, to live in human society, paid its bills, had a job, lived in a fancy house and married a human, is it human?

    Now what if that same butterfly knew how to write code better than any human and had years of experience in the game industry, would that make it a game designer?

    If u wouldn't let a construction worker design your house, then why let a programmer design your world?

  • Lovely_LalyLovely_Laly Member UncommonPosts: 734

    I don't wont to be leet and, less again, pay for it. Sure it's just IMO, but to me game = fun, all the rest is just *extra*.

    sure with some months/years of playing you became familiar with game and can manage to be a good player, but usually "leet" guys did way more, some I met were game veterans and played really for ages, some just overused cash shops.

    try before buy, even if it's a game to avoid bad surprises.
    Worst surprises for me: Aion, GW2

  • blackcat35blackcat35 Member Posts: 479

    When your city is being attacked by a dragon, I strongly suggest you simply prance about with your trusty lute singing everyone else's praises.  Makes me think back to skyrim, where the dragon destroys one city, and your  simply prancing about with your trusty lute singing everyone else's praises.  If I remember correctly, people were basically trying to take cover and not die.  So your singing about how people are running away like Brave Sir Robin in Monty python & the holy grail.

    At certain times I think you should either be forced to fight, flee, or die.  Makes me think permadeath would make games more realistic.  

    Often in mmorpgs the monsters constantly respawn, there refresh rate to respawn varies depending on what the developers want.  Killing constantly respawning werewolves does eventually get old.  It also makes the game seem fake, in real life when a 20 yr old  solider dies, it takes like 20 years & 9 months to replace him.  LIke in WW 2 when we had all those Americans guys die, and then we had the baby boom to replace the fallen soldiers.

    In a more realistic game, fighting allt he time would probably get you killed quick, so doing non-adventuring type activities would make more sense.

    ==========================
    The game is dead not, this game is good we make it and Romania Tv give it 5 goat heads, this is good rating for game.

  • KaosProphetKaosProphet Member Posts: 379
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    We murdered them and jettisoned their corpses into space for the good of the market. The 'correct value for players' in a working multi-market economy is the value determined by players, often arrived at using variables that no computer can or will ever conceive of.

    You underestimate the power of future computers, they will far surpass the collective human intelligence.

    We're talking about now, not the future... or are you from the future and forgot you travelled back in time?

    You did say "or will ever concieve of."  That opens up the topic to futurist talk;  and in that vein, Singularity theory suggests that we are only a few decades shy of the point when computers will surpass us, and be handling variables that no human can or will ever concieve of.

    Unless you count the transhumanist movement.

  • Lovely_LalyLovely_Laly Member UncommonPosts: 734


    Originally posted by blackcat35
    When your city is being attacked by a dragon, I strongly suggest you simply prance about with your trusty lute singing everyone else's praises.  Makes me think back to skyrim, where the dragon destroys one city, and your  simply prancing about with your trusty lute singing everyone else's praises.  If I remember correctly, people were basically trying to take cover and not die.  So your singing about how people are running away like Brave Sir Robin in Monty python & the holy grail.At certain times I think you should either be forced to fight, flee, or die.  Makes me think permadeath would make games more realistic.  Often in mmorpgs the monsters constantly respawn, there refresh rate to respawn varies depending on what the developers want.  Killing constantly respawning werewolves does eventually get old.  It also makes the game seem fake, in real life when a 20 yr old  solider dies, it takes like 20 years & 9 months to replace him.  LIke in WW 2 when we had all those Americans guys die, and then we had the baby boom to replace the fallen soldiers.In a more realistic game, fighting allt he time would probably get you killed quick, so doing non-adventuring type activities would make more sense.

    would you pay sub at game where you can perma die? would you spend 500 or more hours of playing for nothing only because of 1 lag or dc? if yes I wish you find more people like you, as I guess nobody will play such MMO. it's ok for console game but MMO is not the same system.

    try before buy, even if it's a game to avoid bad surprises.
    Worst surprises for me: Aion, GW2

  • KaosProphetKaosProphet Member Posts: 379
    Originally posted by Lovely_Laly

     


    Originally posted by blackcat35
    When your city is being attacked by a dragon, I strongly suggest you simply prance about with your trusty lute singing everyone else's praises.  Makes me think back to skyrim, where the dragon destroys one city, and your  simply prancing about with your trusty lute singing everyone else's praises.  If I remember correctly, people were basically trying to take cover and not die.  So your singing about how people are running away like Brave Sir Robin in Monty python & the holy grail.

     

    At certain times I think you should either be forced to fight, flee, or die.  Makes me think permadeath would make games more realistic.  

    Often in mmorpgs the monsters constantly respawn, there refresh rate to respawn varies depending on what the developers want.  Killing constantly respawning werewolves does eventually get old.  It also makes the game seem fake, in real life when a 20 yr old  solider dies, it takes like 20 years & 9 months to replace him.  LIke in WW 2 when we had all those Americans guys die, and then we had the baby boom to replace the fallen soldiers.

    In a more realistic game, fighting allt he time would probably get you killed quick, so doing non-adventuring type activities would make more sense.


     

    would you pay sub at game where you can perma die? would you spend 500 or more hours of playing for nothing only because of 1 lag or dc?

    If the play itself is good enough, sure.

    I mean, think about it.  Someday, even WoW is going to close their servers down and all the stuff of everyone who still has registered characters there is going to be gone.  This is just a shorter time-frame.

  • MeriliremMerilirem Member Posts: 77
    I think everyone would agree that permanent death will never be viable until lag is completely nonexistent. Even then death will need to be rare for those who aren't trudging through lava fields or dragon dens. How it's handled can be debated in a different topic, feel free to make one for it if ya like.

    If a butterfly learnt to speak, to live in human society, paid its bills, had a job, lived in a fancy house and married a human, is it human?

    Now what if that same butterfly knew how to write code better than any human and had years of experience in the game industry, would that make it a game designer?

    If u wouldn't let a construction worker design your house, then why let a programmer design your world?

  • AkulasAkulas Member RarePosts: 3,003
    I like to grow stuff.

    This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  • BahamutKaiserBahamutKaiser Member UncommonPosts: 314

    I feel the game should have a lot more going on if it is ment to be played indefinetely. I remember playing my old school console RPGs, especially JRPGs, and one thing that totally baffled me is that games like this which can easily be mastered in 50 to 100 hrs had sometimes a dozen completely unique minigames and methods of aquiring rewards which was often completely different than the primary gameplay of the game... yet a big time MMO, especially the big ones, haven't half the minigame awesomeness even though they are ment to be played for years and easily consume wholesale MONTHS of your time, I mean, MONTHS of gameplay time, in 24hr, 7 day a week, compressed gameplay time, not timespan playing the game.

    How is it that a triple A MMO goes about designing a game which can easily consume more time than every console RPG ever made, put together, and not have as much minigame and diversion depth as just one of them? I remember Blitzball, Chocobo racing/breeding, Fishing in Breath of Fire, all sorts of crap, honestly, doesn't even have to be hard, I remember first generation MMO crafting... WTF!, seriously?, seriously... could have at least made it more puzzle oriented and less time/resources oriented.

    Yeah, I feel any MMO which intends to keep you for more than 3 months should heavily invest in gameplay alternatives, and not just for diversion, but for those who actually just want to be great at this or that activity in their MMO seperately from the typical combat and progression. It offers diversion, it offers variety, it offers alternatives, it does so much. A great Minigame can be an attraction all unto itself if done right. I mean how many basic browser based and indie games are out there that offer endless entertainment? Can't that be an included feature in an MMO?, combined with progression in a non-combative role?

    It should be.

    Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
    That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.

  • MeriliremMerilirem Member Posts: 77
    Originally posted by BahamutKaiser

    I feel the game should have a lot more going on if it is ment to be played indefinetely. I remember playing my old school console RPGs, especially JRPGs, and one thing that totally baffled me is that games like this which can easily be mastered in 50 to 100 hrs had sometimes a dozen completely unique minigames and methods of aquiring rewards which was often completely different than the primary gameplay of the game... yet a big time MMO, especially the big ones, haven't half the minigame awesomeness even though they are ment to be played for years and easily consume wholesale MONTHS of your time, I mean, MONTHS of gameplay time, in 24hr, 7 day a week, compressed gameplay time, not timespan playing the game.

    How is it that a triple A MMO goes about designing a game which can easily consume more time than every console RPG ever made, put together, and not have as much minigame and diversion depth as just one of them? I remember Blitzball, Chocobo racing/breeding, Fishing in Breath of Fire, all sorts of crap, honestly, doesn't even have to be hard, I remember first generation MMO crafting... WTF!, seriously?, seriously... could have at least made it more puzzle oriented and less time/resources oriented.

    Yeah, I feel any MMO which intends to keep you for more than 3 months should heavily invest in gameplay alternatives, and not just for diversion, but for those who actually just want to be great at this or that activity in their MMO seperately from the typical combat and progression. It offers diversion, it offers variety, it offers alternatives, it does so much. A great Minigame can be an attraction all unto itself if done right. I mean how many basic browser based and indie games are out there that offer endless entertainment? Can't that be an included feature in an MMO?, combined with progression in a non-combative role?

    It should be.

     Well if it's done right an mmo can have as many mini games as it likes, it's just about what you mean by minigames. I think you may want to make your own thread for that one though. Minigames are not what I'm discussing afterall, I'm discussing games with multiple options for "main gameplay" and gauging people's interest in the various possibilities.

    If a butterfly learnt to speak, to live in human society, paid its bills, had a job, lived in a fancy house and married a human, is it human?

    Now what if that same butterfly knew how to write code better than any human and had years of experience in the game industry, would that make it a game designer?

    If u wouldn't let a construction worker design your house, then why let a programmer design your world?

  • GroovyFlowerGroovyFlower Member Posts: 1,245

    Í played Darkfall as loner for more then two years from time to i joined clans for some benefit still had some nice group of friends around world i sometimes hunt with.

    Always did my own thing crafted eventually up to dragon armor self sustain.

    I tun most time for fights was mainly suited in chaos towns but we where rare breed in Darkfall.

    I never realy follow a path i choose my own and sandbox is best for that.

  • phumbabaphumbaba Member Posts: 138

    Nice OP:)

    I think you are touching two separate subjects here. One is that themeparks usually give you 0 ability to define your story and the other is that non-combat character progression has by and large a minimal viability/focus in mmorpgs. The first has been known as a fact for a long time, but the second has not been spoken of too much yet. I like very much how you illustrate it.

    I don't see any reason why mmog or mmorpg couldn't have multiple viable paths of character progression. Imo it's even in the definition of rpg (many might contest that though:)).. anyway, having multiple progression paths adds value to the game by

    1. Replayability

    2. Wider audience (sims + many many others show that there is demand. A lot of it. Not just brand popularity.)

    3. Being able to shift what you do gives pause to the monotonous slaughter. This brings about longevity.

    4. Many/most of the non-combat activities are eventually more social than zerking a raid or instance. Social activities => friends => more longevity.

    5. Being able to do various viable things enables you to immerse yourself better in the game world. This too provides more longevity.

    No, this is not an advertisement. Just my opinion:) I do understand that many gamers are afraid of these things as they might attract even more of ... gasp... girls in the games. The horror. /jk

  • blackcat35blackcat35 Member Posts: 479
    Originally posted by Merilirem
    I think everyone would agree that permanent death will never be viable until lag is completely nonexistent. Even then death will need to be rare for those who aren't trudging through lava fields or dragon dens. How it's handled can be debated in a different topic, feel free to make one for it if ya like.

    I just didn't think it was a good idea to be a bard (who wasn't dealing with the problem) when a dragon is destroying your home.

     

    ==========================
    The game is dead not, this game is good we make it and Romania Tv give it 5 goat heads, this is good rating for game.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Merilirem
    I think everyone would agree that permanent death will never be viable until lag is completely nonexistent. Even then death will need to be rare for those who aren't trudging through lava fields or dragon dens. How it's handled can be debated in a different topic, feel free to make one for it if ya like.

    PD is viable as an option. Just look at D3.

  • MeriliremMerilirem Member Posts: 77
    Originally posted by blackcat35
    Originally posted by Merilirem
    I think everyone would agree that permanent death will never be viable until lag is completely nonexistent. Even then death will need to be rare for those who aren't trudging through lava fields or dragon dens. How it's handled can be debated in a different topic, feel free to make one for it if ya like.

    I just didn't think it was a good idea to be a bard (who wasn't dealing with the problem) when a dragon is destroying your home.

     

     

    Just because your capable of something doesn't mean you have to do it. If you were walking down the street and a tank appeared and started firing on everything would you fight back or run? Even if you did fight back, you certainly won't have the help of all the other people who by now are fleeing the scene. If your a non combatant it's not your job to combat  things. There is no problem leaving it to those who chose that path. The likelihood that no one else can fight is fairly low in any world. In the end whether you fight or not is up to the individual to decide. You can't blame someone for not doing something they never said they would in the first place.

    If a butterfly learnt to speak, to live in human society, paid its bills, had a job, lived in a fancy house and married a human, is it human?

    Now what if that same butterfly knew how to write code better than any human and had years of experience in the game industry, would that make it a game designer?

    If u wouldn't let a construction worker design your house, then why let a programmer design your world?

  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 9,737
    Actually in most games I just like to blend in and be a part of it....I dont feel like I need to be the greatest of all time in most MMOs.....Its the people that have this need that the f2p games make so much money on.....
  • MeriliremMerilirem Member Posts: 77
    Originally posted by Theocritus
    Actually in most games I just like to blend in and be a part of it....I dont feel like I need to be the greatest of all time in most MMOs.....Its the people that have this need that the f2p games make so much money on.....

    Yeh it's a little sad. I always prefer sub style payment. Paying for stuff in game just shreds the possibility to rollplay in a game and succeed through your own merit. Though it's possible to compete, if they have enough cash to blow they basically win the game. I love subs cuz everyone's on the same level. Money should never have entered the game world. 

    If a butterfly learnt to speak, to live in human society, paid its bills, had a job, lived in a fancy house and married a human, is it human?

    Now what if that same butterfly knew how to write code better than any human and had years of experience in the game industry, would that make it a game designer?

    If u wouldn't let a construction worker design your house, then why let a programmer design your world?

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Theocritus
    Actually in most games I just like to blend in and be a part of it....I dont feel like I need to be the greatest of all time in most MMOs.....Its the people that have this need that the f2p games make so much money on.....

    Then you are in luck. You can free ride on the whales. I am also like you .. that is why F2P games are so good ...

  • aRtFuLThinGaRtFuLThinG Member UncommonPosts: 1,387

    In any games that has ganking element, this is not even a question. It has nothing to even to do with appearance or epeen.

    In those games, if you are not leet, you are meat.

    That's why I'm glad that in games like Age of Wushu at least tries to do something different and introduces consequences and costs for ganking lowbies. I hope that trend continues.

  • AeolynAeolyn Member UncommonPosts: 350

    I choose:

    Not so mighty, just so so, I'm an Adventurer, Explorer, Treasure hunter and a Villager with a home and garden to come home to plus a small shop to sell the shrubs, flowers, vines, etc that I cultivate for both house decoration and alchemy needs(poison resist, inks, dyes, etc.) as well as the rare loot I find on my journeys.  Thank goodness there are those who want to be the carpenters, stonemasons, fishers, cooks, armourers, blacksmiths and tinkers etc. as well as defenders of the world I choose to live in, dang pirates are everywhere! :)
     
     
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Aeolyn

    I choose:

    Not so mighty, just so so, I'm an Adventurer, Explorer, Treasure hunter and a Villager with a home and garden to come home to plus a small shop to sell the shrubs, flowers, vines, etc that I cultivate for both house decoration and alchemy needs(poison resist, inks, dyes, etc.) as well as the rare loot I find on my journeys.  Thank goodness there are those who want to be the carpenters, stonemasons, fishers, cooks, armourers, blacksmiths and tinkers etc. as well as defenders of the world I choose to live in, dang pirates are everywhere! :)
     
     

    You want to sell shrubs and flowers in a GAME?

    Wow .. a real world job is not enough? I suppose it is your perogative of what to do in your free-time.

     

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