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Do I really need to be leet?

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  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Merilirem

    1, Their is a huge difference between a game that is something and a game that allows something. A pure combat game or a pure dancing game are a whole different experience to a game with dancing and fighting.

    Kinda like how having 300 Online or Footloose Online is a whole different experience from West Side Story Online. Yeah, you can have a decent soundtrack in 3-O or play chicken with tractors in FLO, but does it really compare to being able to choose within the same game between a knife fight and singing about Maria?

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • MeriliremMerilirem Member Posts: 77
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Merilirem

    1, Their is a huge difference between a game that is something and a game that allows something. A pure combat game or a pure dancing game are a whole different experience to a game with dancing and fighting.

    Kinda like how having 300 Online or Footloose Online is a whole different experience from West Side Story Online. Yeah, you can have a decent soundtrack in 3-O or play chicken with tractors in FLO, but does it really compare to being able to choose within the same game between a knife fight and singing about Maria?

     

    More than anything it is about enjoying a realistic experience. Following a story as a character someone else made or enjoying yourself while you rip through repeating notions and battles is fine, but they are only aspects of what gaming can be. Gaming is not just frivolous or something to relax with, nor is it something that needs to be difficult. Games are a natural part of life for many, they can allow us to learn and grow as we play. Just as a kitten plays to sharpen its hunting skills so can we stimulate our natures through play. Allowing growth through virtual experience in a mentally interesting world is far more enjoyable than playing to pass time. The difference between thinking about a movie and simply seeing it. Adding 1 or 2 new aspects is a good start on our journey to make a truly emmersive experience but it should not be the end.

    If a butterfly learnt to speak, to live in human society, paid its bills, had a job, lived in a fancy house and married a human, is it human?

    Now what if that same butterfly knew how to write code better than any human and had years of experience in the game industry, would that make it a game designer?

    If u wouldn't let a construction worker design your house, then why let a programmer design your world?

  • xpowderxxpowderx Member UncommonPosts: 2,078
    Man, I miss Star Wars Galaxies pre-cu >.<
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,741

    Vanguard has a system where you could solve quests through Crafting or Diplomacy. Yes, for real. It had its flaws but worked quite well. The MMO genre is littered with good ideas we never see again, that was one of them.

  • CothorCothor Member UncommonPosts: 174

    I remember back in UO, around 1999/2000 I would be in Britain and go over to the Smith in the northern part of the city. There would be 5-10 player smiths there at any given time. I always looked up to them, and when I saw the title of Grandmaster, I was super impressed. So impressed that I soon made a smith and it became my favorite character.

    Back then, being a smith meant something. You repaired peoples armor, you made them armor, and if you had a consistant customer with which you became friends with, you could cut them deals or set up new types of trade with them.

    I also recall a player who would sit by the Britain Bank, off to the side in the grass, and she would sell vegetables for hours at a time every single day, thats all she would do. An epic role player, easily the most devoted and hardcore I had ever seen. I always bought from her as I had no nightmare at the time (I had to feed my mount), and I would give her 100x what the vegetables were worth for her efforts. I never broke character, I just gave her the money that she deserved.

     

    Yes, OP, I agree with you. It takes all types to make the MMORPG not just good, but amazing. To see a bard playing tunes in the streets of a city who is simply playing music, drinking ale, and taking tips... and even telling a joke from time to time, I would kill to see that.

     

    We must demand change. When we log in, it should be a true simulation with true freedom. Someday... no more than 10 more years, someone will figure it out. My hopes are that I am not too old, too blind, or too deaf to enjoy it for a few hard, solid years.

  • dave6660dave6660 Member UncommonPosts: 2,699
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Merilirem

    1, Their is a huge difference between a game that is something and a game that allows something. A pure combat game or a pure dancing game are a whole different experience to a game with dancing and fighting.

    Kinda like how having 300 Online or Footloose Online is a whole different experience from West Side Story Online. Yeah, you can have a decent soundtrack in 3-O or play chicken with tractors in FLO, but does it really compare to being able to choose within the same game between a knife fight and singing about Maria?

    West Side Story Online!  That just made my day :)

     

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • BrianshoBriansho Member UncommonPosts: 3,586
    You can be leet if you keep playing a game for a long time, eventually you'll be leet just like everyone else.

    Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Scot

    Vanguard has a system where you could solve quests through Crafting or Diplomacy. Yes, for real. It had its flaws but worked quite well. The MMO genre is littered with good ideas we never see again, that was one of them.

    A good idea that does not catch on ... may be the idea is not that good in the first place, or it is only good for a niche.

  • BanaghranBanaghran Member Posts: 869
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Scot

    Vanguard has a system where you could solve quests through Crafting or Diplomacy. Yes, for real. It had its flaws but worked quite well. The MMO genre is littered with good ideas we never see again, that was one of them.

    A good idea that does not catch on ... may be the idea is not that good in the first place, or it is only good for a niche.

    Or maybe noone wanted to bother to do the work.

    Flame on!

    :)

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Banaghran
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Scot

    Vanguard has a system where you could solve quests through Crafting or Diplomacy. Yes, for real. It had its flaws but worked quite well. The MMO genre is littered with good ideas we never see again, that was one of them.

    A good idea that does not catch on ... may be the idea is not that good in the first place, or it is only good for a niche.

    Or maybe noone wanted to bother to do the work.

    Flame on!

    :)

    If there is money, there is demand, there is always someone willing to do the work.

  • BanaghranBanaghran Member Posts: 869
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Banaghran
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Scot

    Vanguard has a system where you could solve quests through Crafting or Diplomacy. Yes, for real. It had its flaws but worked quite well. The MMO genre is littered with good ideas we never see again, that was one of them.

    A good idea that does not catch on ... may be the idea is not that good in the first place, or it is only good for a niche.

    Or maybe noone wanted to bother to do the work.

    Flame on!

    :)

    If there is money, there is demand, there is always someone willing to do the work.

    Yes, because we are all rational and have perfect information...

    Flame on!

    :)

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Banaghran
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Banaghran
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Scot

    Vanguard has a system where you could solve quests through Crafting or Diplomacy. Yes, for real. It had its flaws but worked quite well. The MMO genre is littered with good ideas we never see again, that was one of them.

    A good idea that does not catch on ... may be the idea is not that good in the first place, or it is only good for a niche.

    Or maybe noone wanted to bother to do the work.

    Flame on!

    :)

    If there is money, there is demand, there is always someone willing to do the work.

    Yes, because we are all rational and have perfect information...

    Flame on!

    :)

    No, because some of us are rational, and those have better information and act on ... have better success in business.

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,722

    DRAGON: i the dragon will eat you all and all humaniteh!!!! YAR!!!!!!

    BARD: hey buddy lemme sing you a song about friendship with my flute bro, and here some skooma, it will relaaaax yo mind

    DRAGON:....????......... :/ ........ ^.^    bff <3

    ...............

    i want my combat please. thanks.





  • BanaghranBanaghran Member Posts: 869
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Banaghran
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Banaghran
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Scot

    Vanguard has a system where you could solve quests through Crafting or Diplomacy. Yes, for real. It had its flaws but worked quite well. The MMO genre is littered with good ideas we never see again, that was one of them.

    A good idea that does not catch on ... may be the idea is not that good in the first place, or it is only good for a niche.

    Or maybe noone wanted to bother to do the work.

    Flame on!

    :)

    If there is money, there is demand, there is always someone willing to do the work.

    Yes, because we are all rational and have perfect information...

    Flame on!

    :)

    No, because some of us are rational, and those have better information and act on ... have better success in business.

    Only if you can distinguish cynicism from rationality, which is not so clear and does not happen that often.

    Flame on!

    :)

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,741

    The issue of good ideas MMO’s dropped is very broad. The idea that they were dropped because they were not as good as we think is pure modern easy MMO apologist nonsense.

    Some of these ideas do make it back and thrive, like a buddy system that allows players to play at the level of those they group with.

    What we have today as MMO’s are not all designed the same way, even with the amazingly similar template they are designed from. That fact alone shows you that what we have now in gameplay is not perfect, if it worked before it can work again.

    Would MMO’s be better of with those old systems, not all of them for sure. But the idea that if we don’t have it now it was a non runner is just an excuse for MMO’s which have very limited gameplay.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Banaghran
     

    Only if you can distinguish cynicism from rationality, which is not so clear and does not happen that often.

    Flame on!

    :)

    Are you going to quote art of war next?

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Scot

    The issue of good ideas MMO’s dropped is very broad. The idea that they were dropped because they were not as good as we think is pure modern easy MMO apologist nonsense.

    Some of these ideas do make it back and thrive, like a buddy system that allows players to play at the level of those they group with.

    What we have today as MMO’s are not all designed the same way, even with the amazingly similar template they are designed from. That fact alone shows you that what we have now in gameplay is not perfect, if it worked before it can work again.

    Would MMO’s be better of with those old systems, not all of them for sure. But the idea that if we don’t have it now it was a non runner is just an excuse for MMO’s which have very limited gameplay.

    What does "easy MMO" have to do with this?

    Walking around for ages to get from point A to B is easy .. and boring. Staring at a spellbook is easy .. and boring. 20 min boat rides are easy .. and boring.

    If you refers to those "easy" MMO, .. then yes .. they are easy and good riddence.

    Difficulty setting, on the other hand, makes MMO the right level of challenge for more people .. and that not an old idea.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Scot

    The issue of good ideas MMO’s dropped is very broad. The idea that they were dropped because they were not as good as we think is pure modern easy MMO apologist nonsense.

    Some of these ideas do make it back and thrive, like a buddy system that allows players to play at the level of those they group with.

    Mentor/sidekick systems never disappeared. They were introduced about seven or eight years ago and have been around ever since in games where that mechanic fits.


    As for 'good ideas' that were dropped being nonsense: If these devs are as greedy as you and others say, why would they forego adding content that would bring in more players?

     

    They more than likely weren't all as universally enjoyed as you might want to think.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Scot

    The issue of good ideas MMO’s dropped is very broad. The idea that they were dropped because they were not as good as we think is pure modern easy MMO apologist nonsense.

    Some of these ideas do make it back and thrive, like a buddy system that allows players to play at the level of those they group with.

    What we have today as MMO’s are not all designed the same way, even with the amazingly similar template they are designed from. That fact alone shows you that what we have now in gameplay is not perfect, if it worked before it can work again.

    Would MMO’s be better of with those old systems, not all of them for sure. But the idea that if we don’t have it now it was a non runner is just an excuse for MMO’s which have very limited gameplay.

    What does "easy MMO" have to do with this?

    Walking around for ages to get from point A to B is easy .. and boring. Staring at a spellbook is easy .. and boring. 20 min boat rides are easy .. and boring.

    If you refers to those "easy" MMO, .. then yes .. they are easy and good riddence.

    Difficulty setting, on the other hand, makes MMO the right level of challenge for more people .. and that not an old idea.

    difficulty is not the same as interesting though, and its easy to confuse something being challenging, with it being 'complicated, or difficult'  its not even about whether something is easy to do, lots of things are easy to do, and they are also fun, again, making something difficult is not going to improve gameplay as such, making the gameplay more varied and challenging however, might just make it a bit more fun. image

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Phry
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Scot

    The issue of good ideas MMO’s dropped is very broad. The idea that they were dropped because they were not as good as we think is pure modern easy MMO apologist nonsense.

    Some of these ideas do make it back and thrive, like a buddy system that allows players to play at the level of those they group with.

    What we have today as MMO’s are not all designed the same way, even with the amazingly similar template they are designed from. That fact alone shows you that what we have now in gameplay is not perfect, if it worked before it can work again.

    Would MMO’s be better of with those old systems, not all of them for sure. But the idea that if we don’t have it now it was a non runner is just an excuse for MMO’s which have very limited gameplay.

    What does "easy MMO" have to do with this?

    Walking around for ages to get from point A to B is easy .. and boring. Staring at a spellbook is easy .. and boring. 20 min boat rides are easy .. and boring.

    If you refers to those "easy" MMO, .. then yes .. they are easy and good riddence.

    Difficulty setting, on the other hand, makes MMO the right level of challenge for more people .. and that not an old idea.

    difficulty is not the same as interesting though, and its easy to confuse something being challenging, with it being 'complicated, or difficult'  its not even about whether something is easy to do, lots of things are easy to do, and they are also fun, again, making something difficult is not going to improve gameplay as such, making the gameplay more varied and challenging however, might just make it a bit more fun. image

    I don't disagree. Challenge designed ONLY in the right way is fun. Otherwise, games can be easily made intellectually challengin by putting in an NP hard, large scale, randomly generated optimization problem.

    But the point is difficulty options help.

    Easy is also not necessarily boring .. but the examples i quote are .. to me. And i also want to dispute the illusion that old MMOs are more difficult. In fact, much of the gameplay is easy and boring, compared to modern day games. In fact, optimizing DPS/build/gear is much more in-depth today, than in the EQ days. Today, theorycrafting requires math like stochastic modeling.

     

  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Phry
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Scot

    The issue of good ideas MMO’s dropped is very broad. The idea that they were dropped because they were not as good as we think is pure modern easy MMO apologist nonsense.

    Some of these ideas do make it back and thrive, like a buddy system that allows players to play at the level of those they group with.

    What we have today as MMO’s are not all designed the same way, even with the amazingly similar template they are designed from. That fact alone shows you that what we have now in gameplay is not perfect, if it worked before it can work again.

    Would MMO’s be better of with those old systems, not all of them for sure. But the idea that if we don’t have it now it was a non runner is just an excuse for MMO’s which have very limited gameplay.

    What does "easy MMO" have to do with this?

    Walking around for ages to get from point A to B is easy .. and boring. Staring at a spellbook is easy .. and boring. 20 min boat rides are easy .. and boring.

    If you refers to those "easy" MMO, .. then yes .. they are easy and good riddence.

    Difficulty setting, on the other hand, makes MMO the right level of challenge for more people .. and that not an old idea.

    difficulty is not the same as interesting though, and its easy to confuse something being challenging, with it being 'complicated, or difficult'  its not even about whether something is easy to do, lots of things are easy to do, and they are also fun, again, making something difficult is not going to improve gameplay as such, making the gameplay more varied and challenging however, might just make it a bit more fun. image

    I don't disagree. Challenge designed ONLY in the right way is fun. Otherwise, games can be easily made intellectually challengin by putting in an NP hard, large scale, randomly generated optimization problem.

    But the point is difficulty options help.

    Easy is also not necessarily boring .. but the examples i quote are .. to me. And i also want to dispute the illusion that old MMOs are more difficult. In fact, much of the gameplay is easy and boring, compared to modern day games. In fact, optimizing DPS/build/gear is much more in-depth today, than in the EQ days. Today, theorycrafting requires math like stochastic modeling.

     

    Thats also what i mean though unfortunately, min maxing can be a bit nerdy, although granted, some players do enjoy that kind of thing, sometimes the challenging gameplay as such, isnt even about combat, to use an example from an 'old' and now dead game, crafting in SWG, was varied, and one of the biggest challenges often for the crafter was obtaining materials, this usually involved searching planets and using a scanner for a particular resource type, it was time consuming, and it was in itself a fairly easy task, but it could be fun, and sometimes you even needed help, having a 'friendly' ranger along to keep you out of trouble, or deal with it if you had no alternative, even made it fun because for the really good resources, it often became a team effort with several other players along to subdue/destroy nests etc too close to the optimum resource point. Sometimes the fun things arent necessarily difficult or complicated, they just need to be there. image

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,741
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Scot

    The issue of good ideas MMO’s dropped is very broad. The idea that they were dropped because they were not as good as we think is pure modern easy MMO apologist nonsense.

    Some of these ideas do make it back and thrive, like a buddy system that allows players to play at the level of those they group with.

    Mentor/sidekick systems never disappeared. They were introduced about seven or eight years ago and have been around ever since in games where that mechanic fits.


    As for 'good ideas' that were dropped being nonsense: If these devs are as greedy as you and others say, why would they forego adding content that would bring in more players?

     

    They more than likely weren't all as universally enjoyed as you might want to think.

    Mentor/Sidekick disappeared but then kept reappearing, what I am saying is what we have now is not the best simply because it is the latest. Good ideas can get left behind and then come back when seen for what they are. I don't think the dev's are greedy, I have never said that. I do think a more corporate mentality is now influencing their thinking. This occurred as small gaming companies founded by enthusiasts were taken over by larger corporate ones or bought into corporate thinking. It is the executives that run a gaming house, not developers.

    Gaming systems take a lot of time, trying out new ideas or reintroducing something that was good from the past is very expensive. Sticking with the tried and trusted is the best way to ensure a return on investment. But that does not mean we have ended up with the best gaming systems and gameplay.

  • BanaghranBanaghran Member Posts: 869
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Banaghran
     

    Only if you can distinguish cynicism from rationality, which is not so clear and does not happen that often.

    Flame on!

    :)

    Are you going to quote art of war next?

    That would be a waste considering that we are one step from "IF YOU CREATE A SANDBOX, THE TERRORISTS WIN!!!" :)

    Flame on!

    :)

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Scot

    Gaming systems take a lot of time, trying out new ideas or reintroducing something that was good from the past is very expensive. Sticking with the tried and trusted is the best way to ensure a return on investment. But that does not mean we have ended up with the best gaming systems and gameplay.

    Isn't that a contradiction? If it was good, and certainly "tried" in the past, shouldn't it be trusted?

    The reason "tried" ideas were left behind is because they are not good enough.

  • MeriliremMerilirem Member Posts: 77
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Scot

    Gaming systems take a lot of time, trying out new ideas or reintroducing something that was good from the past is very expensive. Sticking with the tried and trusted is the best way to ensure a return on investment. But that does not mean we have ended up with the best gaming systems and gameplay.

    Isn't that a contradiction? If it was good, and certainly "tried" in the past, shouldn't it be trusted?

    The reason "tried" ideas were left behind is because they are not good enough.

    In the first place cramming all the "good" idea's into one game could jut make a huge mess. An idea has to be in the right context. To use a superior crafting system to make weapons is probably not going to be much use in My little pony online. A game should be made as a game and not as an attempt to placate people who want convenience or something cool that games always have these days. It should attempt to let the players enjoy the offered playstyles without compromising the games integrity through gimmicks and payoff. Not pointing any fingers though, just sayin a good idea can be a failure if done in the wrong manner or just plain badly. Like if your friends list randomly added trolls and flamers to itself, or your guilds didn't tell you who was in them and had a 20 player limit.

    If a butterfly learnt to speak, to live in human society, paid its bills, had a job, lived in a fancy house and married a human, is it human?

    Now what if that same butterfly knew how to write code better than any human and had years of experience in the game industry, would that make it a game designer?

    If u wouldn't let a construction worker design your house, then why let a programmer design your world?

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