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When did it become OK to charge $30 - $50 for a month of premium in F2P?

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  • WickedjellyWickedjelly Member Posts: 4,990
    Originally posted by cheyane
    Men are willing to pay a sub at a site to watch adult movies ( think my husband is addicted to porn) and you are questioning paying for games . People are willing to pay for things they enjoy and wives who discover have to keep quiet or get accused for snooping but hey do not judge alright so I think this discussion is nuts considering what they are willing to cough up for their entertainment.

    You need to slap your husband upside his head if he is paying for porn.

    There is so much out there for free it isn't funny.

    ...or so the interwebz told me >_>

    1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

    2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

    3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  • jamigrejamigre Member UncommonPosts: 280
    Originally posted by Sogi-Ya

    I'm seeing F2P game after F2P game price gouge the fuck out of "premium services" and "boosters," sometimes for double or tripple the cost of what it would take for a monthly subscription to a P2P game .... when did this becoime ok to do?

     

    I guess this is the victory lap F2P beating P2P or something: now that F2P has is clearly winning the battle VS P2P it dosen't have to keep competitive on comparable subscriptions pricing.

     

    [mod edit]: the whole reason F2P took off was because it was more accessible and affordable than P2P, shit gets too bad people will just shift back in the other direction ... espacally if going B2P works out for TSW and western P2P holdouts realise that there are other options to stay competitive.

    Its priced at what the market is willing to accept, if people want to pay $200 a month, let them. It's ok. 

    -------
    Check out my side project http://lfger.com/  - a mobile lfg tool for any game, any time. 
    -------

  • angus858angus858 Member UncommonPosts: 381
    Originally posted by Sogi-Ya

     

    [mod edit]: the whole reason F2P took off was because it was more accessible and affordable than P2P, shit gets too bad people will just shift back in the other direction ... espacally if going B2P works out for TSW and western P2P holdouts realise that there are other options to stay competitive.

    No.  Game companies went to F2P because they make more money from cash shops than they did from monthly subs. 

     

  • WraithoneWraithone Member RarePosts: 3,806
    Originally posted by cheyane
    Men are willing to pay a sub at a site to watch adult movies ( think my husband is addicted to porn) and you are questioning paying for games . People are willing to pay for things they enjoy and wives who discover have to keep quiet or get accused for snooping but hey do not judge alright so I think this discussion is nuts considering what they are willing to cough up for their entertainment.

    Which has always been my point. These games are just one aspect of entertainment.  They are a hobby to me. I have no problem with spending money on my hobbies.  I suspect that many of the problems we are looking at are differences in definitions.  It wouldn't be the first time that sloppy definitions have caused problems.

    F2P is simply one possible business model.  This entire operation is about making a profit, off of ones investment of time/talent and money.  Way too many people forget an OLD saying; "There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch".  (TANSTAAFL).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_ain't_no_such_thing_as_a_free_lunch

    Its interesting that you mention your above. Both are selling intangibles, but make billions per year any way.

    "If you can't kill it, don't make it mad."
  • WraithoneWraithone Member RarePosts: 3,806
    Originally posted by angus858
    Originally posted by Sogi-Ya

     

    [mod edit]: the whole reason F2P took off was because it was more accessible and affordable than P2P, shit gets too bad people will just shift back in the other direction ... espacally if going B2P works out for TSW and western P2P holdouts realise that there are other options to stay competitive.

    No.  Game companies went to F2P because they make more money from cash shops than they did from monthly subs. 

     

    Some do, some don't.  It depends on the culture, and the basic assumptions and perceptions involved.  F2P is insanely profitable over in some Asian countries.  Of course, when other business types over here see that, they want a piece of that sweet pie.

    This is all about making the best Return On Investment, thats possible after all.  But some have gone about it the wrong way, and thus alienated some of the current market.  Its long been known that marketing is about managing peoples perceptions and expectations. Some do a better job of that, than others.  With consequences for the over all market sector.

    "If you can't kill it, don't make it mad."
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by NorseGod
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by ste2000
    "Free" to Play games are too expensive, I can only afford subscription based MMOs

    You are not playing them "correctly". F2P never costs me a cent.

    What's the correct way?

    Leaving for another game when the people subsidizing your gaming leaves?

    Or leaving for a new game when you reach the point when you have to buy stacks of health potions to continue playing any further?

    It's funny how the loudest supporters never paid a cent towards these games, yet the average player is said to have spent $28 per month (except you of course).

    I'd rather have subs to 2 games for that and access to everything.

    But, don't focus on that. Just explain the "correct" way. I really want to know.

    You just state it .. when the game stops being fun (either no one else is paying, or run out of free content) .. leave for another game. It is not like there is a shortage of F2P games.

    In fact, it is the opposite. I have been enjoying STO .. i have hardly scratched the surface of free content. I have only up to L10, with two ships, and still on the first season of missions. It will be at least months (assuming i play more instead of on and off) before i get thorugh with this game. And there are many many more. So yeah .... F2P will never cost me a cent.

    And btw, research shows a MAJORITY of players don't pay a cent in MMOs. The link is posted in this and other thread.

    And so .. yeah .. i am one of the majority who enjoy F2P games for free.

  • NorseGodNorseGod Member EpicPosts: 2,654
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by NorseGod
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by ste2000
    "Free" to Play games are too expensive, I can only afford subscription based MMOs

    You are not playing them "correctly". F2P never costs me a cent.

    What's the correct way?

    Leaving for another game when the people subsidizing your gaming leaves?

    Or leaving for a new game when you reach the point when you have to buy stacks of health potions to continue playing any further?

    It's funny how the loudest supporters never paid a cent towards these games, yet the average player is said to have spent $28 per month (except you of course).

    I'd rather have subs to 2 games for that and access to everything.

    But, don't focus on that. Just explain the "correct" way. I really want to know.

    You just state it .. when the game stops being fun (either no one else is paying, or run out of free content) .. leave for another game. It is not like there is a shortage of F2P games.

    In fact, it is the opposite. I have been enjoying STO .. i have hardly scratched the surface of free content. I have only up to L10, with two ships, and still on the first season of missions. It will be at least months (assuming i play more instead of on and off) before i get thorugh with this game. And there are many many more. So yeah .... F2P will never cost me a cent.

    And btw, research shows a MAJORITY of players don't pay a cent in MMOs. The link is posted in this and other thread.

    And so .. yeah .. i am one of the majority who enjoy F2P games for free.

    That's your claim to glory? Being a second-class nomad? This F2P trend is going places.

    That's pretty sad.

    It's like MMO welfare and I'm a competitive gamer paying increasing cash shop prices to subsidize your existence.

     

    To talk about games without the censorship, check out https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/
  • SidraketSidraket Member Posts: 79

    there have always been free to play games like this. this is the reason most pro-subscription people are pro-subscription (that and free to play games usually having even worse communities than standard mmo communities).

    Its actually gotten better in recent years, there are more and more reasonable free to play games out there now. I used to be adamantly anti-f2p but for this reason im more open to checking them out now, still not found any worth playing long term, but ive not played any of the old subscription-gone-f2p games since theyve gone f2p

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by NorseGod
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by NorseGod
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by ste2000
    "Free" to Play games are too expensive, I can only afford subscription based MMOs

    You are not playing them "correctly". F2P never costs me a cent.

    What's the correct way?

    Leaving for another game when the people subsidizing your gaming leaves?

    Or leaving for a new game when you reach the point when you have to buy stacks of health potions to continue playing any further?

    It's funny how the loudest supporters never paid a cent towards these games, yet the average player is said to have spent $28 per month (except you of course).

    I'd rather have subs to 2 games for that and access to everything.

    But, don't focus on that. Just explain the "correct" way. I really want to know.

    You just state it .. when the game stops being fun (either no one else is paying, or run out of free content) .. leave for another game. It is not like there is a shortage of F2P games.

    In fact, it is the opposite. I have been enjoying STO .. i have hardly scratched the surface of free content. I have only up to L10, with two ships, and still on the first season of missions. It will be at least months (assuming i play more instead of on and off) before i get thorugh with this game. And there are many many more. So yeah .... F2P will never cost me a cent.

    And btw, research shows a MAJORITY of players don't pay a cent in MMOs. The link is posted in this and other thread.

    And so .. yeah .. i am one of the majority who enjoy F2P games for free.

    That's your claim to glory? Being a second-class nomad? This F2P trend is going places.

    That's pretty sad.

    It's like MMO welfare and I'm a competitive gamer paying increasing cash shop prices to subsidize your existence.

     

    "claim to glory"? We are talking about digital entertainment here. What is sad is people think that you have to pay through the roof to have fun.

    And yes, please keep paying into cash shop to subsidize my fun. I have zero problem with that. And btw, i don't know about you .. but there is no winning in PvE. Case in point .. i play some STO .. and i am enjoying myself with paying NOTHING. If you play STO, are you going to get starship envy and have to spend money just because the next guy has a cooler looking ship ...  if that is you .. please play my game .. you certainly *will* subsidize me.

  • SWTOR is £21 $35 a month to just buy 4 weekly passes a week for a month, thats fu ridiculous... thats exluding all the other things you must buy as F2P.
  • LOTRO is the worlds best F2P game IMO, theres no pay to win items, you can perma buy content, i play it free to play when it went F2P i bought £40 of turbine points and bought the entire games content, now i play like a Lifetime sub FREE, its amazing, i never have to sub, i have 9 char slots, all quest zones and expansions unlocked forever for free no sub, theres NOTHING i need to ever buy on AH appart from convinience items like teleports and rep speed ups.
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,742
    Have to agree with you Lotro still has the best cash shop in a MMO I have seen. But pay to win is creeping in. You cannot purchase a legendary weapon but you can purchase all the component parts. Having PvM instead of PvP is one of the keys to why it is not as P2W as other MMO's.
  • TickleMeHomoTickleMeHomo Member Posts: 28
    Sub based game have really limited player base.Idk if wow ones are true but thats different.Outside US ,games with sub based  model are really not triving in Europe or far in East as u go.Devs wants as much more players and much more to be talked bout for their game.F2p aint going nowhere you wil just lose not playing.There is some wierd feeling when as f2p beat premium user from head to toes with shop gear.Games are not what were 1-2 years ago with pay to win items just get this in your head.I wonder how can u dam miss games like Hawken/Planetside 2/Mechwarrior online and soon EvE on f2p train.Jesus.With so many f2p games out there,devs only left to learn from eacother and attract more people.Sry english
  • NorseGodNorseGod Member EpicPosts: 2,654
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by NorseGod
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by NorseGod
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by ste2000

    "claim to glory"? We are talking about digital entertainment here. What is sad is people think that you have to pay through the roof to have fun.

    And yes, please keep paying into cash shop to subsidize my fun. I have zero problem with that. And btw, i don't know about you .. but there is no winning in PvE. Case in point .. i play some STO .. and i am enjoying myself with paying NOTHING. If you play STO, are you going to get starship envy and have to spend money just because the next guy has a cooler looking ship ...  if that is you .. please play my game .. you certainly *will* subsidize me.

    No thanks. Good luck to you though, hey "forward", right?

    To talk about games without the censorship, check out https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/
  • JemcrystalJemcrystal Member UncommonPosts: 1,983
    I play Mabinogi and you really DO NOT NEED the premium.  It's just bragging rights for the rich peeps out there.  I don't care if they have it.  Let them so they can pay for my game that I play for free.  Besides, the stuff the prems get they just sell to us in game anyway so we freebs end up wearing premium.  Win win.


  • PhelcherPhelcher Member CommonPosts: 1,053
    Free to play games have zero continuity... because the player base is comprised of transients. Who.. might play today.. or who might play another game today.

    For an online world, that type of casualness is a death knell... how does one develope guild continuity, or lasting friendships..?

    Free to play is all about easing the burden on the developer, by cheapeningthe game for instant revenues. Has nothing to do with supporting your game, or facilitating a proper community.

    I recently watched my nephew bounce between 3 different mmos one afternoon. Looking for his friends online...

    I logged onto an old EQ account and within 20 minutes got tells from people i hadnt seen in 4 years...

    "No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


    -Nariusseldon

  • MeridionMeridion Member UncommonPosts: 1,495

    I'm a LotRO subscriber, and actually, those 10 bucks + 500 cash shop points per month bought me the two last expansions for free and I never spent a dime on cash shop points because you can earn them ingame no problem.

    Arguments like "it's the last straw for a dieing game" is BS too, LotRO for example opened up servers and kept them open for more than 12 months now, is freemium for almost three years now and has pumped out their arguably best expansion to date under a full fletched freemium model.

    I've been a LotRO subscriber since day 1 and the game is healthier now than it has been since release rush in May 2007 (!!).

    If you're not some lunatic with an agenda its plain as day that freemium can be a very healthy payment model while ensuring lasting success.

    I agree though that F2P can be screwed up just as any business model. EQ2s F2P or Vanguards F2P models are prime examples, or the BS SWTOR is trying to do at the moment (hindering f2p players so the game is no longer fun, quickbars, XP malus, flashpoint restriction).

    The key to gaining and retaining players is make them feel welcome and class A members even if f2p - But make the deal for subscription so good that people just _want_ to be subbers.

    M

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Phelcher
    Free to play games have zero continuity... because the player base is comprised of transients. Who.. might play today.. or who might play another game today.
    Yes. And join them and become a transient. You get to play more games than just stuck in one.

    For an online world, that type of casualness is a death knell... how does one develope guild continuity, or lasting friendships..?
    I don't play games for an online world, or lasting friendship. I have enough friends. I will make an occasional friend online, just to group ... but i don't expect, nor have time for real lastnig friendship anyway. So this is not important to me at all.

    Free to play is all about easing the burden on the developer, by cheapeningthe game for instant revenues. Has nothing to do with supporting your game, or facilitating a proper community.
    And i don't "support" games. I use entertainment products to have fun.

    I recently watched my nephew bounce between 3 different mmos one afternoon. Looking for his friends online...
    Or he should just play with his RL friends like my sons, and can hop from games to games.

    I logged onto an old EQ account and within 20 minutes got tells from people i hadnt seen in 4 years...
    I found it sad that one has to restric oneself to a game, just because of some people. It is much better to play many games, sometimes with same group of RL friends, some with strangers. This idea of one community in just one game is very stricting to me, and not conducive to my idea of fun.

     

  • MeridionMeridion Member UncommonPosts: 1,495
    Well these games were once special because they allowed communities to form and thrive... With friendships, rivalry, even love springing from them...

    It's the "lol relax just a entertainment product with zero meaning", well, I made MMORPG friends 10 years ago I still go out IRL, one even supported me during an rl crisis...

    As long as new releases are entertainment products in line with pong or tv shows MMORPG has lost its initial appeal...

    M
  • hfztthfztt Member RarePosts: 1,401
    Originally posted by Meridion

    Arguments like "it's the last straw for a dieing game" is BS too, LotRO for example opened up servers and kept them open for more than 12 months now, is freemium for almost three years now and has pumped out their arguably best expansion to date under a full fletched freemium model.

    But then again Turbine seems to be one of the few who understand how western f2p should be done.

    DDO f2p is pure win as well.

  • DauzqulDauzqul Member RarePosts: 1,982
    Originally posted by NorseGod
    I can't afford F2P MMOs.

    lol

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Meridion
    Well these games were once special because they allowed communities to form and thrive... With friendships, rivalry, even love springing from them...

    It's the "lol relax just a entertainment product with zero meaning", well, I made MMORPG friends 10 years ago I still go out IRL, one even supported me during an rl crisis...

    As long as new releases are entertainment products in line with pong or tv shows MMORPG has lost its initial appeal...

    M

    MMORPGs have little initial appeal to me. Too much work, too little games, too cumbersome to play.

    Now they are much better. And i don't need to go to a game to make friends. I would rather lure a real-life friend (or better, my kids) to play with me in a specific game, instead of the other way around.

  • MeridionMeridion Member UncommonPosts: 1,495
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Meridion
    Well these games were once special because they allowed communities to form and thrive... With friendships, rivalry, even love springing from them...

    It's the "lol relax just a entertainment product with zero meaning", well, I made MMORPG friends 10 years ago I still go out IRL, one even supported me during an rl crisis...

    As long as new releases are entertainment products in line with pong or tv shows MMORPG has lost its initial appeal...

    M

    MMORPGs have little initial appeal to me. Too much work, too little games, too cumbersome to play.

    Now they are much better. And i don't need to go to a game to make friends. I would rather lure a real-life friend (or better, my kids) to play with me in a specific game, instead of the other way around.

    It's the age old basement nerd argument. Don't be silly it's just games if you need games to make friends you probably failed in life anyways...

    I won't discuss this because you don't usually get any worthwhile results out of these rants.

    But:

    The idea of "I get RL friends on to play together" is exactly what "other games" were for back when MMORPGs were MMORPGs. Like Diablo, Diablo 2, Duke Nukem 3D, C&C, Counterstrike 0.6... you name it. I got my friends together, we brought our PCs or met in a lobby and rolled away. There were no strangers in these matches/games and you just had a ton of fun...

    That's perfectly okay.

    Things get bizarre though when people try to point this out as the all new shiny flavor of MMORPGs. MMORPGs were (and in part are) a place where you can play with your RL friends if you want, god knows i sometimes do, but beyond that allowed you to have a blast with total strangers. 40-man Vanilla WoW raids, merely 10 years ago, were one of the most fun things I've ever done in my gaming life. 40 people on vent, killing, getting killed, laughing... It was never about the grind oder the cumbersome repetitions, at least not for me, MMORPGs were about doing something with lots of people (massive) online...

    Nowadays, I install SWTOR and play it as an intermittend moba game. Group finder if necessary, battleground if bloodthirsty, single player game and story as the motivation to log on. I'm playing exactly as if i had a single player game with multiplayer option. And that's where it goes downhill. Because something unique, the MMORPG experience, is consumed by something that's been there since the dawn of the internet, online games.

    M

  • PhelcherPhelcher Member CommonPosts: 1,053
    Then why bother playing an mmo..? Just play batman, etc.

    Ur counter-plints are silly.. as u've just given a reason not to plah massiveultiplayer game. Better yet, why bother playing any game if ur criteria is just for engertainment.

    Why even play any mmo if its not to be part of that game world and meet others. Otherwise, it just a game. Like rts.. or batman, or mario bro..

    I would pay $50/month for premium mmorpg like early eq/archage.. so that the game world is full of life'ers who take stock n pride in their online characters.

    U dont, u just want to play as many games as possible to be entertained. How fruitless. Ur time is not invested into anything.. ur reward os so shallow. Why r u hear @ mmo site, if ur needs are so selfish?

    "No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


    -Nariusseldon

  • AnnwynAnnwyn Member UncommonPosts: 2,854

    First F2P MMO I've played was in 2003, and I've played quite a lot since until I found 1 to settle in. Never spent any money on those other MMOs. I have however spent money on the F2P game I've settled in, Mabinogi for the curious ones, and have been playing on and off since 2009. I have spent about  $250-300 for what is about the turn into my 5th year in that game. What's more is that I didn't have to buy those items to proceed further into the game, a free player has access to everything from day one. I purchased items because I like what the game offered and I thought I was getting my money's worth (which I did).

    I did play P2Ps as well. Amongst many,  there's DarkFall which I've played for almost 2 years and it costed me about the same amount for a single account (I had a total of 3 accounts however, and I'm not even counting those) in ~2 years as Mabinogi costed me in 4-5 years.

     

    There's a pretty good trick to avoid F2Ps that have very expensive/unfair cash shops - Don't play them. You didn't have to spend any money to get the client, you didn't have to spend any money to begin playing. The total amount you've spent to play that game is 0. Move on to a different game. And in the case where a large majority of players don't like the prices or model being used for a F2P title, well sometimes things changes. This is what happened with Allods Online (huge outcry, apparently cash shop is much more tame nowadays) and Vindictus (previously limited amount of dungeon runs players could do per 3 days, has completely been removed since). 

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