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tab-combat or action combat?

Nemesis7884Nemesis7884 ZurichPosts: 880Member Uncommon
will this game feature same old same old mmo combat or action combat ala terra?
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Comments

  • MumboJumboMumboJumbo LondonPosts: 3,221Member

    It's not actiony combat that's fairly certain.

    Here's current info:

     

    Blog #18 - You're in the Army Now! (Massively-Multiplayer armies)

    Blog #24 - A Three-Headed Hydra (Stamina & Weapon Slots)

    Blog #26 - Gentlemen, You Can't Fight in Here! This is the War Room! (Critical Hits & Injuries)

    ==

    I could add more context, eg sandbox, mass combat, permutations of combat scenarios, design ideas from pathfinder pnp adapted for real-time/servers etc...

     

     

     

  • Nemesis7884Nemesis7884 ZurichPosts: 880Member Uncommon

    and i just lost interest...any mmo that will come out in the future with tab target combat will fail...its as easy as that...times have changed and we have all seen that and done that...we can just play wow which is exactly that and has a bazillion of content...yeah its not sandbox, but we got darkfall and eve for that...

     

    no action combat, no future

  • anthony21690anthony21690 Bronx, NYPosts: 107Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nemesis7884

    and i just lost interest...any mmo that will come out in the future with tab target combat will fail...its as easy as that...times have changed and we have all seen that and done that...we can just play wow which is exactly that and has a bazillion of content...yeah its not sandbox, but we got darkfall and eve for that...

     

    no action combat, no future

    and how are action combat games doing nowadays sir?

  • Nemesis7884Nemesis7884 ZurichPosts: 880Member Uncommon

    they die less fast...look at mmos released with traditional tab target combat, theyre not making it half a year (secret world for example)

    i truly believe, to stay alive as an mmo nowadays you need to be

    a) niche, which comes also from b and c,

    b) sandbox

    c) interesting combat mechanics - therefore no tab target combat

  • wolfmannwolfmann TerraakPosts: 1,159Member

    You do know "actiony" combat and "tab" combat kinda comes into different camps and tastes?

    Actiony combat is player combat, tab is character combat.

    A CS player might find actiony fun, while a RTS player might find actiony a snorefest... Just sayin.

    imageThe last of the Trackers

  • MumboJumboMumboJumbo LondonPosts: 3,221Member
    Originally posted by Nemesis7884

    and i just lost interest...any mmo that will come out in the future with tab target combat will fail...its as easy as that...times have changed and we have all seen that and done that...we can just play wow which is exactly that and has a bazillion of content...yeah its not sandbox, but we got darkfall and eve for that...

     

    no action combat, no future

    Yes - this is a concern I also have.

    About Pathfinder Online becoming "another tab-target + hot-key combat" mmorpg, as well, make no mistake. So I am in a similar frame of mind as you. But did you look at the blogs? If so, what did you think of the ideas there?

    =

    Additional context:

    1. Not action combat; some form of tab-target with a hot-bar via weapon slotting (with skill slotting - see 3.)
    2. Many different context to combat
    3. Power curve is very small for skill-training then horizontal skill addition
    4. The design space is "wide open" ie adapting combat rule ideas from pathfinder pnp for mmorpg (ie real-time/servers etc)
    5. Balance is not the be all end.

    *Deep Breaths*

    So, if I was designing the combat, I would think there was some opportunity to do something interesting with the above even with tab-target and hot-bar. Ideally about interesting decision making imo.

     

     

     

  • Nemesis7884Nemesis7884 ZurichPosts: 880Member Uncommon

    sure does, but a) tab target combat is simply boring - it doesnt matter if you like it or not, it is boring - any combat where you can watch tv besides and is just repetitive button mashing is boring...games with tab target combat try to work around this (like gw2) but it doesnt really change the fact... and b) there are allready countless good mmo games with this kind of combat, you simply dont need another one which isnt even gonna be an aaa title...what kind of chance does such a title have against franchises such as star wars, elder scrolls or world of warcraft...?

    its something completly different if tab target combat is turn based, thats where the strategy geek comes in (and believe me im a die hard 4x fan) - but thats a different animal alltogether - there is simply no denying that games like chivalry allow for much more intense and fun combat...or why else would so many tab-target players use macros and bots and shit - they are so bored of the always same routine, they dont even play themselves anymore

     

    if somone would come up with a sandbox mmo with theme park characteristics (e.g. story & quests) and a combat system like chivalry/mount&blade etc..and a good pvp system, i guarantee you we have a wow competitor, cause its eversything wow doesnt have

  • MumboJumboMumboJumbo LondonPosts: 3,221Member
    Originally posted by wolfmann

    You do know "actiony" combat and "tab" combat kinda comes into different camps and tastes?

    Actiony combat is player combat, tab is character combat.

    A CS player might find actiony fun, while a RTS player might find actiony a snorefest... Just sayin.

    That's a great way of putting it. For eg:

     

    Quote -snip- Goblin Works:

    There are all sorts of combat potentials in a sandbox MMO and each needs to be considered when building the system.

    • People will fight monsters as a group 
    • People will fight monsters as multiple groups (i.e. PvEvPvE) 
    • People will fight Many vs. One 
    • People will fight in asymmetric group sizes 
    • People will fight One vs. One 
    • People will fight in Large Groups (i.e. armies) 
    • People will fight other people who are trying to just run away without engaging 
    • People will fight from ambush or stealth and will try to make a quick kill rather than engage in a toe-to-toe brawl 
    • Some people will be making ranged, not melee attacks

    There are a lot of contexts to combat in Pathfinder Online.

  • Nemesis7884Nemesis7884 ZurichPosts: 880Member Uncommon

    devs see all these same same mmos fail and what do they do? come up with the exact same shit...

    how was that again, the definition of insanitys is doing the same things over and over again and expecting different results...

  • Nemesis7884Nemesis7884 ZurichPosts: 880Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MumboJumbo

    Quote -snip- Goblin Works:

    There are all sorts of combat potentials in a sandbox MMO and each needs to be considered when building the system.

    • People will fight monsters as a group 
    • People will fight monsters as multiple groups (i.e. PvEvPvE) 
    • People will fight Many vs. One 
    • People will fight in asymmetric group sizes 
    • People will fight One vs. One 
    • People will fight in Large Groups (i.e. armies) 
    • People will fight other people who are trying to just run away without engaging 
    • People will fight from ambush or stealth and will try to make a quick kill rather than engage in a toe-to-toe brawl 
    • Some people will be making ranged, not melee attacks

    There are a lot of contexts to combat in Pathfinder Online.

    thats RIDICOULOS - listing different numbers of players involved is exciting and variied combat? ARE U FUCKING KIDDING ME????

  • TraugarTraugar Robbinsville, NCPosts: 183Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nemesis7884

    and i just lost interest...any mmo that will come out in the future with tab target combat will fail...its as easy as that...times have changed and we have all seen that and done that...we can just play wow which is exactly that and has a bazillion of content...yeah its not sandbox, but we got darkfall and eve for that...

     

    no action combat, no future

    Many of us don't want action combat.  If I want action combat then I will go play a fps.  Just because a game has tab targetting doesn't make it like wow.  I have seen action combat,  and done that.  It doesn't belong in an MMO imo.  

  • MumboJumboMumboJumbo LondonPosts: 3,221Member
    Originally posted by Nemesis7884

    sure does, but a) tab target combat is simply boring - it doesnt matter if you like it or not, it is boring - any combat where you can watch tv besides and is just repetitive button mashing is boring...games with tab target combat try to work around this (like gw2) but it doesnt really change the fact... and b) there are allready countless good mmo games with this kind of combat, you simply dont need another one which isnt even gonna be an aaa title...what kind of chance does such a title have against franchises such as star wars, elder scrolls or world of warcraft...?

    its something completly different if tab target combat is turn based, thats where the strategy geek comes in (and believe me im a die hard 4x fan) - but thats a different animal alltogether - there is simply no denying that games like chivalry allow for much more intense and fun combat...or why else would so many tab-target players use macros and bots and shit - they are so bored of the always same routine, they dont even play themselves anymore

     

    if somone would come up with a sandbox mmo with theme park characteristics (e.g. story & quests) and a combat system like chivalry/mount&blade etc..and a good pvp system, i guarantee you we have a wow competitor, cause its eversything wow doesnt have

    I completely agree with this and just as interested to see if Goblin Works can achieve a more interesting strategy to combat as you say - tab-target aping actiony is shallow strategy on the right-hand and not visceral enough either on the left-hand.

    So if GW can go in the direction of interesting strategy/decision making with tab-target there is real possibility there imo.

    1. The Stamina System - effectiveness decision-making
    2. Some rock-paper-scissors out-smarting anticipation
    3. Equipment aligning damage vs defence context

    Those sorts of interesting layers.

    Edit: This was interesting for what makes RPG's interesting combat ie strategy:

    DPS and the Decline of Complexity in RPGs

     

    Closing Thoughts

    The reason I bring this up isn't because I hate DPS and I think that DPS is something that shouldn't exist - on the contrary, it has worked very well for certain games.  My problems with it are mostly caused by the way in which it has helped transform RPGs from a unique style of game with their own nuanced rule systems, towards action games with glorified progression systems.  DPS has definitely been a boon as far as marketability and mainstream appeal goes - just like leveling up, it's an easy carrot for players to follow that is basically foolproof in significance - but generally speaking, all the classic RPG fans I know are very much aware of the differences in gameplay that DPS brings.  The ones who have embraced it are primarily not of the same community that originally supported RPGS in the first place.

     

    That's not to say that DPS, is solely responsible for this degradation in RPG gameplay, and many of those effects of DPS are secondary in nature and can be altered.  For example, DPS doesn't force developers to use only one damage type, but it does certainly encourage it, and once you've started to create DPS with all the nuance and depth of the older systems by adding additional modifiers on top of it, well, we've really just come full circle and made DPS obsolete anyway.  DPS is a trend that's critically approaching the same level of saturation as XP progression in shooters, and I'm afraid that it's slowly taking us down the road towards homogenization of genres.

    ~ Eric Shwarz

     

  • MumboJumboMumboJumbo LondonPosts: 3,221Member
    Originally posted by Nemesis7884
    Originally posted by MumboJumbo

    Quote -snip- Goblin Works:

    There are all sorts of combat potentials in a sandbox MMO and each needs to be considered when building the system.

    • People will fight monsters as a group 
    • People will fight monsters as multiple groups (i.e. PvEvPvE) 
    • People will fight Many vs. One 
    • People will fight in asymmetric group sizes 
    • People will fight One vs. One 
    • People will fight in Large Groups (i.e. armies) 
    • People will fight other people who are trying to just run away without engaging 
    • People will fight from ambush or stealth and will try to make a quick kill rather than engage in a toe-to-toe brawl 
    • Some people will be making ranged, not melee attacks

    There are a lot of contexts to combat in Pathfinder Online.

    thats RIDICOULOS - listing different numbers of players involved is exciting and variied combat? ARE U FUCKING KIDDING ME????

    You sound like you are used to dev-content where eveything is very controlled. Please explain yourself! image

    Edit: To be sure: You can say, zerg in themepark is boring and I'd agree, but mmorpgs need to take risks and less control on how the players interacting because that also leads to more predictable outcomes trying to control for that.... so more variable contexts of "anything that could happen... will eventually happen" events occurring in mmorpgs.

  • ZierrityZierrity tonsbergPosts: 230Member Uncommon

     

    @OP

    You know, just because your opinion says that tab combat is boring doesnt really make it so, so instead of saying 'That IS boring', it'd be more appropriate to say that 'I find that to be boring', as it's an opinion not a fact.

    I mean, if I was to go around and say that action combat is boring, then people who disagree with me might feel that I'm saying that my opinion matters more than theirs, and that I might be trying to force my opinion on them, but if I was to say, 'I find it to be boring', I'm clearly stating that this is a statement, not a fact

    I for one do like tab combat, and I do like action combat aswell, so I can't really agree with you that a game is "doomed" because of it's combat choices, as there are so many others aspects that make a game unique and fun.

    I mean look at Age of Wushu: not the most fun combat system, but people seem to really like it because of other aspects.

    and then look at TERA: exciting  "actiony" combat, but the rest of the design choices aren't as...strong?(IMO). People seem to stay away from it (and just to clarify, I do not hate TERA :P)

    if TERA is a bad choice of game, as it's P2P and AOW is not, what about RadierZ? I don't really see much talk about that one either.

    I don't really mean to "piss on your parade" or anything, and I'll get out of your hair in a minute, I just wanted to stop by and state my opinion about not judging a game out of one aspect... And the whole "statement || fact" thingie.

    image

  • Nemesis7884Nemesis7884 ZurichPosts: 880Member Uncommon

    the dictionary disagrees with you, definition of boring:

    These adjectives refer to what is so uninteresting as to cause mental weariness. Boring implies feelings of listlessness and discontent


    What is monotonous bores because of lack of variety


    Tedious suggests dull slowness or long-windedness


    Irksome describes what is demanding of time and effort and yet is dull and often unrewarding


    Something tiresome fatigues because it seems to be interminable or to be marked by unremitting sameness


    Humdrum refers to what is commonplace, trivial, or unexcitingly routine

    pretty much the definition of tabtargeting...

    but as yo said, you may disagree...i stand by my statement that any new mmo that introduces the same used tried true tab target lock system will fail...and im waiting to be proven wrong for quite some time now

  • Havok2allHavok2all Roswell, GAPosts: 188Member Uncommon

    Tab Targeting has just been done the same way over the series of released games the past few years. That does not mean tab targeting can not be expanded and utilized in all new ways to provide a more robust and innovative form of combat. The tab targeting concept isn't the problem, its the lack of imagination in its utilization that is the problem.

    This seems to be a problem ,lack of imagination, in all MMOs lately.

  • ZierrityZierrity tonsbergPosts: 230Member Uncommon

     

    While the dictionary might disagree with me, I'm glad you agree that everyone have a right to their opinion :)

    And who knows, maybe someday a tab target game will change your mind as well.

    (not about it being boring, but about that any new game with tab targeting will fail)

    as ArcheAge might come to be released next year, (or 2014, who knows), we'll see :)

     

    Personally, I hope that companies keep making both type of combat oriented games, as I like the variety :)

    image

  • Nemesis7884Nemesis7884 ZurichPosts: 880Member Uncommon

    the problem is, action combat games - such as tera, often get the combat right but everything else wrong while with tab target games its the other way around, and i fail to understand why its so damn hard to do it right...

    and if archeage is being released 2014, 2015, 2020 or any time has yet to be seen after the 346th beta...

  • ScalplessScalpless SnowballvillePosts: 1,396Member Uncommon
    I really don't see what the targeting method has to do with combat being action-y or not. For example, do you know what GW2's targeting method is quite similar to? Devil May Cry's targeting. DMC is the epitome of crazy, player skill -focused action and it uses an automatic targeting system, because aiming is simply not important in a game like that. It's not important in TERA, either, because you'd have to be blind not to hit that game's slow-moving monsters that cover half of your screen.
  • MumboJumboMumboJumbo LondonPosts: 3,221Member
    Originally posted by Havok2all

    Tab Targeting has just been done the same way over the series of released games the past few years. That does not mean tab targeting can not be expanded and utilized in all new ways to provide a more robust and innovative form of combat. The tab targeting concept isn't the problem, its the lack of imagination in its utilization that is the problem.

    This seems to be a problem ,lack of imagination, in all MMOs lately.

    I think there is something to be said for this. There's some further details being considered in the desing choices: For eg in terms of what weapons and items are slotted and used is a massive consideration.

    Has anyone looked at MtG system? Eg:

    1) Selection of deck in 1st place

    2) Emergent choice of selection of cards to use depending on opponent

    3) Resource control eg mana

    -

    So similar ideas can apply to tab-target imo?

    ==

    @All:

    Good discussion: Talk about throwing the dictionary in. :)

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid hell, NJPosts: 6,778Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nemesis7884

    and i just lost interest...any mmo that will come out in the future with tab target combat will fail...its as easy as that...times have changed and we have all seen that and done that...we can just play wow which is exactly that and has a bazillion of content...yeah its not sandbox, but we got darkfall and eve for that...

     

    no action combat, no future

    that is your very personal opinion, i get it. That doesnt mean it is true. And, if that was true then it would be even more true that any mmo coming out without Dynamic events will fail too. Which is also not completely true.

    Look how good Tera is doing with its "true action combat". 

    image
  • MumboJumboMumboJumbo LondonPosts: 3,221Member
    Originally posted by Nemesis7884

    the problem is, action combat games - such as tera, often get the combat right but everything else wrong while with tab target games its the other way around, and i fail to understand why its so damn hard to do it right...

    and if archeage is being released 2014, 2015, 2020 or any time has yet to be seen after the 346th beta...

    True^. As said, I am most concerned how combat will work in pathfinder online atm. The other systems and features are very cool so far discussed:

    https://goblinworks.com/blog/

    Edit: Tbh: Archage combat really puts me off that mmorpg... anything you can add to that?

     

  • Nemesis7884Nemesis7884 ZurichPosts: 880Member Uncommon

    gw2 is in my opinion also tab target combat, just packaged in a more interesting way...but it still gets old, fast

    i might be wrong but my understanding and whhttp://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/719/view/forums/post/5481593/postAction/editat i mean is

    tab target combat = target locks, attacks follow and hit you, evasion is at best a dice throw, no skill shots, no active dodging, auto lock on targets, combat rotations etc. etc.

    action combat is skill shot based with actively aiming and dodging - yeah gw2 has some kind of dodge, imo it is still rather tab target combat since you dont have to aim and shots hit follow you automatically

    i have to say tough, but this is off topic, what keeps me slightly interested in the game is the art style and the details to the characters

    besides, as said, i think tera did the combat right, but everything else wrong...besides, theyre not doing so bad, last i heard they had over 1m subscribers worldwide mid this year

    i mean, just look at a game like mount & blade, how much success it has altough pretty much everything speaks against it - no story, crappy graphics, hardly any features - why is that, why does it have so many follow ups? cause the combat is just damn great (and m&b's combat isnt even done that well cause its pretty clunky and unresponsive)

    ***

    regarding archeage, i have a friend who was in beta 4 and 5, i played a little, i can tell you a few things

    - the combat system is very very classic tab targeting - aka world of warcraft style

    - the skill system is interesting as it lets you choose several decks (3) to select skills from, so its somewhat open

    - all the open world features such as housing are highly exaggerated in the sense that i think people believe its way better than it actually is...cause you got just fields with a bazillion of the same small houses on them...so...

    - there are some neat features to the game, sea fights etc. are great and everything...i just think a open world pvp system NEEDS a good engaging combat system more than anything else...i have the same issue with archeage that i had with tsw - fantastic game but really boring boring combat system...cause after a pretty short time (shorter than many people believe) you will have seen all the open world features in archeage, and what stays is the pvp combat...and that simply isnt that good...darkfall for example was way better in that regard (but worse with most other things)

    so i guess it depends what youre looking for...i either know people that think archeage is really boring or fantastic, im rather in the first group...i think if you like a game like darkfall, you will not like archeage and if youre rather the "slow builder" type of player who likes eve or likes games like 4x games (that might sound weird), you will like archeage...because its more about exploring and building than fast combat...

    but for me, the combat is just not engaging enough that i would want to heavily inves time into the game...besides the fact that there are some serious community issues in the game

     

    *** i also got this response from goblin works:

    Hi Nemisis7884,

    For a lot of reasons, the combat system will not be player-twitch-skill based. It will be more complex than target - hit macros, but you won't be aiming.

    whatever the reasons are...not going to be my game than, this type of combat is just to boring for me...but everyone else, i hope the project is a success and youre having fun

     
  • ScalplessScalpless SnowballvillePosts: 1,396Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nemesis7884

    action combat is skill shot based with actively aiming and dodging - yeah gw2 has some kind of dodge, imo it is still rather tab target combat since you dont have to aim and shots hit follow you automatically

    But they don't follow you. If someone fires an arrow and you walk off its path, it won't hit you. The only difference between GW2 and TERA in this regard is that you don't have to aim in GW2.

    Anyway, based on what I've read about this game, its combat will be a bit less action-focused than GW2's. I don't even expect to see an active dodge, although it does look like they took some notes from the way GW2 does things, so it's still possible. Of course, for a game based on D&D, dice rolls are an expected "feature" and I'm sure they'd piss some members of their target audience off if they made this game too twitch-focused.

  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,058Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nemesis7884

    and i just lost interest...any mmo that will come out in the future with tab target combat will fail...its as easy as that...times have changed and we have all seen that and done that...we can just play wow which is exactly that and has a bazillion of content...yeah its not sandbox, but we got darkfall and eve for that...

     

    no action combat, no future

    Exactly

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

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