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What happened to classes in games? Formerly: It was never a trinity.

HeroEvermoreHeroEvermore salem, ORPosts: 672Member

I have changed the title of my post to express the meaning behind it. It was never meant to flame anyone for using the word trinity. It was meant to explain that games were not always limited to such simplistic class design.

That being said I am merely expressing my opinions.

 

I love all the silly trinity threads. Obviously something thought up by younger gamers who never experienced older mmorpgs.

Trinity to me = lack of imagination.

The above statement is not meant to hurt anyones feelings it is merely an opinion and as a human I think i have that right still?

 

Games had way more then a trinity.

Tank

Healer

Mana-feed/Buffer (remember enchanters, they were NOT dps)

Puller

Crowd control

Rezzer (not always the healer)

Damage dealer (the most unwanted role in many games, now it is the most common filler role)

Attack Buffer (atk spd or atk output not neccesarily from a dps role)

 

I could go on and on.

 

Want to know why you do not see this as much anymore?

GAMING COMPANYS GOT LAZY!!!! They started combining this stuff into other roles so they could get away with less classes. You think Guild Wars 2 got rid of healers and tanks to be innovative? LOL! It was lazy. They gave everyone a rez. Gave everyone a heal. Gave everyone the ability to safely pull mobs. Something challenging will come along eventually that will once again REQUIRE such specified teamwork. Until then enjoy easy mode.

 

Edited in:

Killing the trinity:

Tank role deletion: All damage is based on getting hit or not getting hit (avoidance). All characters have the same defensive standpoint.

Healer role deletion: Take out all abilities to regen HP except a natural passive heal over time. Like real life wounds are healed.

DPS role deletion: Take out differentials in damage output. Take out enemy HP. What part of a monster you attack starts to weaken and break him down. (obviously this would be the hardest role to take out but if there was no damage differential in skills it would all be skill based and therefore having no tank or healer role naturally takes this role out as well.) It's like: Mortal Kombat as an example. Everyone fights but you don't call them DPS.

Now make me a game! go go go! :P

Hero Evermore
Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

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Comments

  • gordiflugordiflu BarcelonaPosts: 757Member
    Sigh, the lost art of crowd control.
  • MyTabbycatMyTabbycat SP, MOPosts: 312Member
    Did the gaming companies get lazy or did the gamers?
  • HeroEvermoreHeroEvermore salem, ORPosts: 672Member

    Added in a few more roles. Crowd control being one of them.

    My favorite role gone from gaming is the buffer/mana feeder. Sure some games have bard but they are way more dps powerful then in the older games. Back in the day a good enchanter could DOUBLE the groups xp rate. Something near impossible in todays mechanics. You want to be a helper role because you like helping groups at the cost of solo efficiency? Sorry you only get to be a healer now.

    Hero Evermore
    Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
    Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 3,752Member Uncommon
         The first time I ever heard trinity it was a warrior (tank), cleric (healer), and enchanter (crowd control/slower).......DPS was needed but was not a part of the trinity at that time anyway....In the early days of EQ if you played one of those classes you easily got a group.....Any other class you would still be able to find a group but often took longer and you had varying roles (unless you were strictly dps like a wizard or something).
  • HeroEvermoreHeroEvermore salem, ORPosts: 672Member
    Originally posted by MyTabbycat
    Did the gaming companies get lazy or did the gamers?

    I don't make games but I know one thing. The next AAA mmorpg that has 20+ classes will be something many of us "oldschool" mmorpg vet's would die for.

    Grindfest doesn't exist in my vocabulary. Reaching max level in a month or less casually is not my style. If the PvE is awesome the slower the better. Given you have enough areas worth our time. I remember leveling in Everquest Online Adventures. It took me forever to reach the cap. yet i stuck with that game for 3 years. I felt like I had really earned the right to be at level cap. Now I am just handed it. Kinda sad. That is a little off topic but it goes with the same thoughts. Gaming is getting to simplified.

     

    THE MORE ROLES THE MERRIER.

    Hero Evermore
    Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
    Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

  • PhramePhrame Philadelphia, PAPosts: 29Member

    Agreed, but I don't think it necessarily has to do with laziness - I think it was more of a time issue. In games with that many roles, it's often tough / time consuming to get a full party together that fills all of the roles. Also, some roles are more played than others. This was a major issue for a lot of players, especially because people tend to prefer DPS roles meaning there are too many of those players and people have a hard time getting groups, etc. 

    So developers began to consolidate roles, or in the case of GW2 - everyone can do everything, so there's no need to wait. And it doesn't matter who you group with really... you can play ASAP. 

    I do miss a lot of these roles though and wish some games would implement them again somehow.

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,476Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by HeroEvermore

    I love all the silly trinity threads. Obviously something thought up by younger gamers who never experienced older mmorpgs.

    Games had way more then a trinity.

    Tank

    Healer

    Mana-feed/Buffer (remember enchanters, they were NOT dps)

    Puller

    Crowd control

    Rezzer (not always the healer)

    Damage dealer (the most unwanted role in many games, now it is the most common filler role)

     

    I could go on and on.

     

    Want to know why you do not see this as much anymore?

    GAMING COMPANYS GOT LAZY!!!! They started combining this stuff into other roles so they could get away with less classes. You think Guild Wars 2 got rid of healers and tanks to be innovative? LOL! It was lazy. They gave everyone a rez. Gave everyone a heal. Gave everyone the ability to safely pull mobs. Something challenging will come along eventually that will once again REQUIRE such specified teamwork. Until then enjoy easy mode.

     http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html

  • HeroEvermoreHeroEvermore salem, ORPosts: 672Member

    That is a horrible article lol. Everquest did NOT have the trinity. You can say oh but i liked these 3 classes in my party best so that has to be the trinity. NEGATIVE. Not even close. Bad article :P

     

    Noticed you spammed that article in several posts. Least spam something knowledgable. Anyone that says EQ was restricted to trinity is WRONG WRONG WRONG> Thanks for playing, come again.

    Hero Evermore
    Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
    Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,919Member Uncommon
    Role diversity sounds awesome.  Were the group sizes larger?  Or raid groups in normal-ish dungeons?

    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • HeroEvermoreHeroEvermore salem, ORPosts: 672Member
    Originally posted by XAPGames
    Role diversity sounds awesome.  Were the group sizes larger?  Or raid groups in normal-ish dungeons?

    Most of my personal non trinity preference design would come from EQOA. We had the standard party size (5-6) and no raids at all. It was more fun to play the misfit classes and be a person that excelled at them because people truly remembered you in partys. I played an offensive modded warrior and it was the most rare class in game. We sacrificed everything meant to make us tank (def mods) to get 6 offensive mods (most in game) and we were a very "unwanted" class. The perk to being an amazing one, our group could have me tank and have way higher output of dps overall (you grinded in eqoa even after level cap, class mastery ftw). I just had to have a real nice healer for sure lol. being different in games is fun. The more classes the more unique you feel.

    Hero Evermore
    Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
    Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,205Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by XAPGames
    Role diversity sounds awesome.  Were the group sizes larger?  Or raid groups in normal-ish dungeons?

    naturally raids were very large back then. if you look at a very large op in eve, it'll included 100-some capitals and over a thousand subcapital pilots filling various support roles across several dedicated fleets.

     

    Now this is eve...the oddball...but pve-wise in very large scale raids like 72 or more... it was similar.

    image

  • WolfenprideWolfenpride San''doria, WIPosts: 3,988Member
    Originally posted by HeroEvermore

    Want to know why you do not see this as much anymore?

    GAMING COMPANYS GOT LAZY!!!! They started combining this stuff into other roles so they could get away with less classes. You think Guild Wars 2 got rid of healers and tanks to be innovative? LOL! It was lazy. They gave everyone a rez. Gave everyone a heal. Gave everyone the ability to safely pull mobs. Something challenging will come along eventually that will once again REQUIRE such specified teamwork. Until then enjoy easy mode.

    I was under the impression they've made these kinds of changes because modern day players are tired of being dependent on others to fill a role and such.

    I agree it's bad design for a multiplayer game, but there's always someone complaining about the fact that their character can't do everything because they're a certain class and what not.

  • HeroEvermoreHeroEvermore salem, ORPosts: 672Member

    I blame this exact thing on people who think they are social mmorpg gamers and truly they are just RPG gamers.

    If you DO NOT RELY on others to succeed. Why are you playing an MMORPG?! /uninstall

    Hero Evermore
    Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
    Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

  • st4t1ckst4t1ck jonesboro, GAPosts: 600Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Wolfenpride
    Originally posted by HeroEvermore

    Want to know why you do not see this as much anymore?

    GAMING COMPANYS GOT LAZY!!!! They started combining this stuff into other roles so they could get away with less classes. You think Guild Wars 2 got rid of healers and tanks to be innovative? LOL! It was lazy. They gave everyone a rez. Gave everyone a heal. Gave everyone the ability to safely pull mobs. Something challenging will come along eventually that will once again REQUIRE such specified teamwork. Until then enjoy easy mode.

    I was under the impression they've made these kinds of changes because modern day players are tired of being dependent on others to fill a role and such.

    I agree it's bad design for a multiplayer game, but there's always someone complaining about the fact that their character can't do everything because they're a certain class and what not.

    Everyone says this, but i dont get it. so many people were tired of being dependant but the only games still runing sub fee's are older games that have these dependency's

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,205Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Wolfenpride
    Originally posted by HeroEvermore

    Want to know why you do not see this as much anymore?

    GAMING COMPANYS GOT LAZY!!!! They started combining this stuff into other roles so they could get away with less classes. You think Guild Wars 2 got rid of healers and tanks to be innovative? LOL! It was lazy. They gave everyone a rez. Gave everyone a heal. Gave everyone the ability to safely pull mobs. Something challenging will come along eventually that will once again REQUIRE such specified teamwork. Until then enjoy easy mode.

    I was under the impression they've made these kinds of changes because modern day players are tired of being dependent on others to fill a role and such.

    Players are allowed to be tired of whatever they want to be tired. It doesn't make them right...but they're allowed.

     

    when companies follow the modern players with development model, however, you have a problem. because now you're developing games catered to the "play it for a month, beat it, move on" crowd.

     

    are MMO companies happy to develop for 5 years and have a populated game for 1 month ?

     

    there's a good reason you don't want to give your client everything he ever asks for...BECAUSE ONCE YOU DO, YOU AND YOUR PRODUCT ARE NO LONGER NEEDED.

    image

  • HeroEvermoreHeroEvermore salem, ORPosts: 672Member

    exactly what static said. you want to sell a lot of copies to a broad audience. Sure make the easy mode classes and solo capable game. Want to keep the monthly subs and the peopel that actually make up a great community. You won't find us in your game for long because we will keep going back to the older games where MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER really meant just that.

     

    also great input robokapp

    Hero Evermore
    Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
    Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

  • Oracle_FefeOracle_Fefe N/A, NYPosts: 221Member
    Originally posted by HeroEvermore

    I love all the silly trinity threads. Obviously something thought up by younger gamers who never experienced older mmorpgs.

    Games had way more then a trinity.

    Tank is a tank

    Healer is a healer

    Mana-feed/Buffer (remember enchanters, they were NOT dps) Usually the "support" or healer.

    Puller Is the tank or ranged dps.

    Crowd control Usually done by anyone with a CC, but they have to do some other role AND micromanage the CC.

    Rezzer (not always the healer) Usually is.

    Damage dealer (the most unwanted role in many games, now it is the most common filler role) DPS

    Attack Buffer (atk spd or atk output not neccesarily from a dps role) Depends on the role.

    It is solely my opinion, but the problem with this argument is that you can't constantly do some of these roles throughout an entire battle and expect to stay on the team. Instead of soaking, dealing, or healing damage you're just constantly sheeping the same mob over and over, or doin nothin till someone dies then you rez them? The reason why they call it a trinity is because they are the major roles. You can sheep a mob to the side once and then DPS the main target. You can pull a mob with a taunt and then tank them both. You can rez a person and then heal them up. Nomatter what minor role you're doing you usually go back to healing, dpsing, or tanking. The only role that could have some extra flak is pulling, and thats in fights where even a tank can't handle the boss so it must be leashed. The puller still must do dps regardless.

     

    In short, the trinity is called a trinity because it's always expected of you to deal, soak, or heal damage.

  • HeroEvermoreHeroEvermore salem, ORPosts: 672Member

    Obviously you never played an enchanter type role that is completely designated to feed buffs and mana and not do ANY damage.

     

    You also have never played a puller in ffxi (vanilla). Whos only job was to grab a mob, drop it off at a tank, then go get another mob. Your thoughts are tiny like the games that come out lately. We want big thinkers. Thanks for playing :P

     

    You exact thoughts are honestly what the gaming companys think you want and that is why class diversity in games is so lame now. Thank you for proving my point lol.

     

    Why not just make my class the tank/healer/dps and not even make parties in games. Great idea /sarcasm

     

    WHEN GAMES BEGAN-

    I thought classes would grow and become infinity. Now they are even less then a trinity. A true waste of imagination.

    Hero Evermore
    Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
    Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

  • ZyzraZyzra Madison, WIPosts: 354Member

    I would love to spend my entire time in an MMORPG of the future just hitting a monster once so that the rest of the group can do everything else.

    Pulling sounds amazing.

    Buffing is a great thing as well.  I remember how much buffs helped, and how their durations of an hour or so were far too short so we had to keep one of our group slots filled with someone who followed us around, collected loot to keep, and after a while of yelling buffed us again.

     

    And crowd control, amazing, I can't imagine how groups could work without a player who all they did was control the crowds.  They have to be some sort of amazing magic user, but not a Mage because mages use magic and they are DPS.  The CC uses magic too, but can't do damage.  It would be silly to think that someone who could use magic could do both.

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,205Member Uncommon

    back in BC (wow) my tank did so little dps compared to a real dps that it was insignifficant in a 25man raid.

     

    my role was simple:

     

    1) stay alive.

    2) keep the big boss looking at me.

     

    I loved that. as game progressed in wolk and cata and tanks began doing reasonable dps I started feeling increasingly dissatisfied with tanking. I didn't want to be capable of doing reasonable dps. I wanted to have one tiny role in a big diverse group an specialize on that alone.

     

    if I want to be able to do everything, I'd go solo or do a small group dugeon...not a large-size raid.

     

    I like to be one small guy in a big group playing a critical role. like a scout or prober or tackler in EVE for example. I have very little to do with the enemy dying, I barely damage it at all, but my work makes everyone else's work possible.

     

    I would love to play a "puller" in a raid. a small yet critical high-precision role that makes or breaks the attempt for the other many players before the fight really gets going.

    image

  • HeroEvermoreHeroEvermore salem, ORPosts: 672Member

    I also played a main tank warrior in vanilla WoW. Like you said as the expansions came warrior tanking dwindled down to nothing. Pallys took the main tank role, then DKs, then Druids etc...I no longer felt like i was meant to be a "warrior" Leading the party into battle. It ruined the game for me.

    I am very happy to see some people missing more specified roles in games. I am glad some games still make a few offhand classes here and there but i do miss a lot of the people who sacrificed DPS to be a true buffer or spent there time and skill pulling mobs to our party because it was that dangerous. Being the "best of role" is to common now. So many games that have only 3 or 4 classes bores me.

    Tank>healer>dps>aoe dps would be the most common 4 i see in games now. expanding on this makes it more exciting. Vanguard is a pretty good example of this. As well as plenty of other older mmorpgs.

    Hero Evermore
    Guild Master of Dragonspine since 1982.
    Playing Path of Exile and deeply in love with it.

  • ZyzraZyzra Madison, WIPosts: 354Member
    Originally posted by Robokapp

    back in BC (wow) my tank did so little dps compared to a real dps that it was insignifficant in a 25man raid.

     

    my role was simple:

     

    1) stay alive.

    2) keep the big boss looking at me.

     

    I loved that. as game progressed in wolk and cata and tanks began doing reasonable dps I started feeling increasingly dissatisfied with tanking. I didn't want to be capable of doing reasonable dps. I wanted to have one tiny role in a big diverse group an specialize on that alone.

     

    if I want to be able to do everything, I'd go solo or do a small group dugeon...not a large-size raid.

     

    I like to be one small guy in a big group playing a critical role. like a scout or prober or tackler in EVE for example. I have very little to do with the enemy dying, I barely damage it at all, but my work makes everyone else's work possible.

     

    I would love to play a "puller" in a raid. a small yet critical high-precision role that makes or breaks the attempt for the other many players before the fight really gets going.

    Well last I checked in WoW a tank (warrior), mage (dps), and even the healers could all pull.  they all had ranged weapons or abilities.  And since their usefulness is limited to one attack, this is better than having an entire slot of your group or raid do one attack.  Instead you get a true role of usefulness, that can pull the monster as well.

     

     

    I mean what's next, people asking for half their raid being filled with one of each profession - such as fishing, jewelcrafting, and cooking?

    "Guys we can't take down this undead warlord boss, we don't have a chef."

  • KheldenKhelden QuPosts: 20Member

    In my opinion, the trinity is simply the base of a type of gameplay, which is, more often than not, the most efficient. It simply consists of at least 1 character to deal with the heavy hits from the encounter (the tank), at least 1 character which make sure the team stay alive with heals or shielding spells (the healer) and at least 1 character which does a lot of damage to get the whole thing rolling.

     

    That's pretty much it. I wouldn't mind a game which allow alternatives to this concept, such as two DPS jungling with the aggro between themselves to replace a tank, etc. But at least, they should not simply deny this type of strategy from players.

     

    On a sidenote and without any wish to be mean, from all my years playing MMO it is usually a good thing that only 2 members of a team will do around 60-80% of the job by themselves, seeing how many people fail at extremely easy mechanics.

  • ZyzraZyzra Madison, WIPosts: 354Member
    Originally posted by HeroEvermore

    I also played a main tank warrior in vanilla WoW. Like you said as the expansions came warrior tanking dwindled down to nothing. Pallys took the main tank role, then DKs, then Druids etc...I no longer felt like i was meant to be a "warrior" Leading the party into battle. It ruined the game for me.

    I am very happy to see some people missing more specified roles in games. I am glad some games still make a few offhand classes here and there but i do miss a lot of the people who sacrificed DSP to be a true buffer or spent there time and skill pulling mobs to our party because it was that dangerous. Being the "best of role" is to common now. So many games that have only 3 or 4 classes bores me.

    Tank>healer>dps>aoe dps would be the most common 4 i see in games now. expanding on this makes it more exciting. Vanguard is a pretty good example of this. As well as plenty of other older mmorpgs.

    Even Vanguard groups their multitude of classes into categories.  Four categories.  Two of which are DPS.

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,205Member Uncommon

    I was the paladin :)

     

    I was the guy who can't tank as good as a warrior, can't survive as good as the warrior, can't generate tanking threat as good as  the warrior but...

     

    can generate great offtank threat without being hit. Can aoe-tank very well. Can move mobs to the main tank very well.

     

    I knew my place. it was behind the warrior, second on threat. And i loved it. I wouldn't get to tak the whole fight, but what i was doing waas still important - something that woul only be visible when I wasn't doing it.

     

     

    the role of "Offtank" is also fading, replaced by many main tanks rotating until that debuff clears out.

     

    MT/OT was grat. We didn't need to have 3 MTs. the OTs weren't envious of the MT...:(. WE WERE FINE as OTs.

    image

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