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Since this side-discussion seemed to be derailing a thread, I thought I'd create a new one specifically for this.
So, the Trinity.
Did this start with MMOs or was it created back with pen n paper Dungeons n Dragons some twenty plus years ago?
The trinity, as I understand it, is the tank/dps/healer combination used in most modern MMORPGS.
For the Trinity to exist, there needs to exist game mechanics of "Aggro" and "Taunt". These, as far as I know, never existed as game mechanics in old pen n paper Dungeons and Dragons rulebooks. So even though you may have used tactics similar, it was not in fact the Trinity.
What do you think?
Incoming wall of text to show discussion before:
This is a continuation from a GW2 thread found here:http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/372532/page/14
"-Roles are horribly underexplained and unclear
1. Unclear only to those that were not able to get their heads out of the tiny little box it was placed in by MMO companies unable to think differently. The holy trinity was one of the worst ideas in RPG history, thank you D&D."
"What??? DnD? The trinity was created by the modern MMO. There was no trinity in DnD."
"Are you freaking serious....The first MMORPG with Graphics was NeverWinter Nights Online back in 1991, it had the holy trinity which Meridian 59 used in 1996 and EverQuest which is D&D with another name...wowzers.
Original D&D Black Box had 3 classes. Cleric (Healer), Fighter (tank), Mage(DPS).
It wasnt until Greyhawk was released that other classes started
to appear, Greyhawk brought the Theif (another DPS) and the Paladin (tank/healer). it wasnt until the player handbook came out that the first non-trinity class was created...the BARD.
Everything else all falls into the trinity catagory BECAUSE they are taken from D&D.
/fighter/berserker/avenger/barbarian = dps
paladin = tank/healer
warrior/warlord/ardent = tank/dps
Warden/batlemaid/swordmage = tank
ranger/scout = dps
theif/rogue = dps
wizard/mage/elementalist/necro/warlock = dps
cleric/priest = healer
Druid/shaman/monk = healer/dps"
"Wow. Ok, first off, DPS stands for damage per second. Combat in DnD was never based on real time. There were turns or rounds, so how could it have been Damage Per Second? It couldn't have been!
The Trinity was developed back with the first gen of MMOs (EQ 1). Made up of the Tank, Healer and DPS. DnD never had such a term for this combat style because it didn't come into play until the MMO!!
True each class was based off an archetype, healer, warrior, etc, but the actual term trinity as we use it now was coined by and for the MMO genre.
Please, show me anywhere in any of the pre-MMO genre DnD books where it specifically states the trinity. You'd be hard pressed.
The only trinity you will possibly find mentioned is that of the three core books: Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide and the Monster Manual...but those referred to the three books, not the Tank/DPS/Healer trinity you are talking about.
Second, EQ 1 may be a fantasy based online RPG but it is not Dungeons and Dragons.
I can't believe I am actually needing to post this. Did you even play Dungeons and Dragons PNP?"
"No, tabletop definitely had the trinity. Wizards / Sorcerors were the damage classes. Fighters / Paladins / Rangers were the meat shields and protectors of the mages, always putting themselves between the opponent and the mage. Clerics / Druids were the hybrids who both kicked ass and saved the group's bacon with well placed heals. Thieves were the melee damage class and trap experts. I never played a campaign that didn't have at least three of the above archetypes as campaigns couldn't be completed without them.
They may not have been labeled as the trinity at the time, but that is exactly what they were. Doesn't matter if combat is real time, turn based or some mix of the two, the point is that you had to have classes that healed, classes that tanked and protected and classes that dealt real damage in order to be successful in campaigns."
"I won't argue that you could play it like that now if you wanted but the trinity refers to the mechanic in MMOs. Again, please show me where it is specifically referred to as "Tank/DPS/Healer" trinity in those books. You can't because the label was created for MMOs. There was no taunt mechanism, either.
Edit: By saying the trinity existed with old pen n paper RPGs of the 70s-80s, you are projecting a 1999 mechanic onto something that predates the very definition of it. If Everquest and the modern MMO never existed, there would be no "trinity" as we know it. You can't go back and attribute it to something that was around 30 or more years before it. You can argue there were elements or roles that beared resemblance to it, and perhaps lent itself to the creation of it some time after but thats about as far as you can go."
"This. Trinity as people refer it nowadays is basically: Tank manages aggro, DPS deal damage, Healer keeps everyone alive. I have never seen characters systematically doing aggro management in the pen and paper games I played, because that notion was pretty much non existent."
"Have to agree with Grimal on this one. Never once while playing D&D (I was in the Navy... not a lot to do at night when on a carrier at sea...) did anyone take roles like that. No one ever taunted the boss, no one was a pure healer, etc. It was actually a lot closer to GW2 than WoW."
"Did you NOT see where I said there was a NeverWinter Night Online MMORPG made back in 1991? Or that it was followed by Meridian 59? Or how about right after that I mentioned EQ being based off them.
D&D gold box games had SPELLS WITH LINGERING EFFECTS AND BLEEDS from melee attacks which would TICK each round of combat, This is where the idea of DAMAGE PER SECOND comes from...YEAH, Meridian 59 had real time combat and thus had DPS before EQ.
The very idea that you are now pretending EQ is not a D&D clone is crazy, the arugment has no meaning other than to argue."
"MMOs and their developers don't label their classes as the trinity either, players do. Of course there was taunting in D&D. Not only did my fighters shout epithets at mobs to keep their attention, I also would place myself between them and the physically weaker members of the party which in itself is taunting, forcing the mob to face me and ignore my party. I'm not projecting anything. The mechanic already existed, it's just that no one even gave it a second thought or considered it a bad thing."
"Any more than your pathetic effort."
"The burden of proof resides on you. Your example above just shows a description of a combat encounter. Just because it bears similarity does not mean that the trinity suddenly exists. That's like saying that all green items are equal just because they are green."
"Just because you are too blind to see it for what it was or too obstinate to admit you were wrong. Your argument is no different thaI' ve already shot down your whole argument. Others have agreed. If you can't talk nice, avoid discussions."n people who proclaim that homosexuality is a modern issue, all based on the fact that even though it existed in our ancient past, it wasn't labeled as such and therefore it didn't technically exist. The terminology and label may be modern, the idea and practice are not.
By the way, Ms. Knowitall, the burden of proof is required on both sides of an argument and you haven't proven anything yourself."
"I' ve already shot down your whole argument. Others have agreed. If you can't talk nice, avoid discussions."
"You haven't shot down anything and one or two agreements doesn't mean anything. You were never nice to begin with, so don't try pretending otherwise. Your post history is replete with sarcasm and baiting. It's I who should have known better than to argue with someone like you."