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Massively shows some honesty

BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

Massively, who just voted GW2 game of the year, is not rosey-eyed fanbois chees'n on the current hotness-

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/12/19/where-guild-wars-2-goes-wrong/

Have some pretty interesting and intelligent arguments against the game that I tend to agree with.

Pretty much highlights the issues I have with the game almost perfectly.

To pique your interest - the highlights in bullet point form-

-Roles are horribly underexplained and unclear

-Dynamic events don't work in their role as quest replacements

-Area flow is problematic

-Crafting is a freaking mess

-The story is weak

 

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Comments

  • grimalgrimal Stamford, CTPosts: 2,874Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Massively, who just voted GW2 game of the year, is not rosey-eyed fanbois chees'n on the current hotness-

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/12/19/where-guild-wars-2-goes-wrong/

    Have some pretty interesting and intelligent arguments against the game that I tend to agree with.

    Pretty much highlights the issues I have with the game almost perfectly.

     

    I saw that and agree.

  • LawlmonsterLawlmonster Dallas, TXPosts: 954Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Massively, who just voted GW2 game of the year, is not rosey-eyed fanbois chees'n on the current hotness-

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/12/19/where-guild-wars-2-goes-wrong/

    Have some pretty interesting and intelligent arguments against the game that I tend to agree with.

    Pretty much highlights the issues I have with the game almost perfectly.

     

    Good for them. It'd be nice to see more of this kind of journalism around here in featured articles.

    "This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)

  • ZalmonZalmon Bloomington, INPosts: 319Member
    I sometimes play GW2 but only for PVP because i freakin love my guild and we play all MMOS together. So i hop n and out for some W v W action with them. But other than that i find GW2 to be extremely boring and devoid of any depth. Especially the story part is very amateurish and bland. So i agree with their list.
  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    I thinly the crafting thing is unfair. I quite liked gw2 crafting, at least it let me make things useful to me at my level rather than wow / wow clone style make a ton of green boots you will never wear then send them at a loss.

    I thought cooking was particularly good, with the way you combined stuff like real recipies.

    Sure its not as good as crafting in sandbox mmos, but for a themepark the crafting us pretty good.
  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member

    Meh... it's opinions, and opinions I disagree with. The fact that he's worrying about how clear roles are being defined shows he's still thinking in a more archaic "roles" mindset from too much trinity training in earlier games. 

     

    It's an interesting opinion piece, nothing more.

    Oderint, dum metuant.
    image

  • TorgrimTorgrim GothenburgPosts: 2,088Member
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Massively, who just voted GW2 game of the year, is not rosey-eyed fanbois chees'n on the current hotness-

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/12/19/where-guild-wars-2-goes-wrong/

    Have some pretty interesting and intelligent arguments against the game that I tend to agree with.

    Pretty much highlights the issues I have with the game almost perfectly.

    To peak your interest - the highlights in bullet point form-

    -Roles are horribly underexplained and unclear

    -Dynamic events don't work in their role as quest replacements

    -Area flow is problematic

    -Crafting is a freaking mess

    -The story is weak

     

     

    Only thing I can agree with are the story the rest not so much.

    DE works perfectly I don't see how this don't work in his mind.

    Area flow, I guess if you try to bumrush thrue zones then yes the flow might be odd that the next zone is 5 levels above you, try to stick around longer in the same zone or switch to another in the same level range (If this is what he mean with area flow problematic)

     

    Crafting is weak? How so, gather mats, mix em get recipes how is that a freaking mess?

    If it's not broken, you are not innovating.

  • ZalmonZalmon Bloomington, INPosts: 319Member
    Originally posted by Volkon

    Meh... it's opinions, and opinions I disagree with. The fact that he's worrying about how clear roles are being defined shows he's still thinking in a more archaic "roles" mindset from too much trinity training in earlier games. 

     

    It's an interesting opinion piece, nothing more.

    Umm..thank you captain obvious. yes it is an opinion peice just like saying that GW2 is best MMO of 2012. Everything is an opinion and nothing more.

  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member
    Originally posted by Zalmon
    Originally posted by Volkon

    Meh... it's opinions, and opinions I disagree with. The fact that he's worrying about how clear roles are being defined shows he's still thinking in a more archaic "roles" mindset from too much trinity training in earlier games. 

     

    It's an interesting opinion piece, nothing more.

    Umm..thank you captain obvious. yes it is an opinion peice just like saying that GW2 is best MMO of 2012. Everything is an opinion and nothing more.

     

    You're welcome?

    Oderint, dum metuant.
    image

  • elockeelocke Manassas, VAPosts: 4,205Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Zalmon
    Originally posted by Volkon

    Meh... it's opinions, and opinions I disagree with. The fact that he's worrying about how clear roles are being defined shows he's still thinking in a more archaic "roles" mindset from too much trinity training in earlier games. 

     

    It's an interesting opinion piece, nothing more.

    Umm..thank you captain obvious. yes it is an opinion peice just like saying that GW2 is best MMO of 2012. Everything is an opinion and nothing more.

    Don't feel bad.  Volkon is an obvious GW2 fanboi.  Just look at his recent posts regarding such.  He can't be budged at all.  :D  At least he's civil about it though, I'll give him that.

    image
  • RimmersmanRimmersman MonacoPosts: 885Member
    Originally posted by Zalmon
    Originally posted by Volkon

    Meh... it's opinions, and opinions I disagree with. The fact that he's worrying about how clear roles are being defined shows he's still thinking in a more archaic "roles" mindset from too much trinity training in earlier games. 

     

    It's an interesting opinion piece, nothing more.

    Umm..thank you captain obvious. yes it is an opinion peice just like saying that GW2 is best MMO of 2012. Everything is an opinion and nothing more.

    I thought the same lol.

    image
  • PyukPyuk Eugene, ORPosts: 691Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Massively, who just voted GW2 game of the year, is not rosey-eyed fanbois chees'n on the current hotness-

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/12/19/where-guild-wars-2-goes-wrong/

    Have some pretty interesting and intelligent arguments against the game that I tend to agree with.

    Pretty much highlights the issues I have with the game almost perfectly.

    To peak your interest - the highlights in bullet point form-

    -Roles are horribly underexplained and unclear

    -Dynamic events don't work in their role as quest replacements

    -Area flow is problematic

    -Crafting is a freaking mess

    -The story is weak

     

    Well hot-damn! Not everyone in gaming media is drinking the Cool-Aid. Good for Massively. Overall I think GW2 is okay, but I'm not blind to its problems and get all butt-hurt when someone points them out. Glad to see an e-zine not afraid to make valid points. 

    I make spreadsheets at work - I don't want to make them for the games I play.

  • elvenwolfelvenwolf RomePosts: 139Member

    I think is a good piece, and offer wide explanations for what he thinks dosen't work in the game.

    I don't agree entirely with all his points, i have leveled a couple fo toons, and honestly had no problem with DE , also i liked the story, but that's maybe cause i did read the novel that do explain how Destiny Edge is formed and why it does break apart, and why the various characters hate each other. So i was able to "continue" the story of the novel in game.

    Proably without knowing the story from the novel facts are not explained in depth.

    All in all as i said i don't agree with all his points but he did a very constructive criticism, which is only healty for a game that wish to  improve.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member

    The crafting bit and the story bit might explain why these things are not truly focused on much in games. It's enough that they exist for a game to sell a bajillion copies, as long as the rest of the game is good.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • NBlitzNBlitz ZwollePosts: 1,904Member
    Thank you for the link. Can only surf mobile.

    Just a little by the by, it's "to pique someone's interest".
  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member
    Originally posted by elocke
    Originally posted by Zalmon
    Originally posted by Volkon

    Meh... it's opinions, and opinions I disagree with. The fact that he's worrying about how clear roles are being defined shows he's still thinking in a more archaic "roles" mindset from too much trinity training in earlier games. 

     

    It's an interesting opinion piece, nothing more.

    Umm..thank you captain obvious. yes it is an opinion peice just like saying that GW2 is best MMO of 2012. Everything is an opinion and nothing more.

    Don't feel bad.  Volkon is an obvious GW2 fanboi.  Just look at his recent posts regarding such.  He can't be budged at all.  :D  At least he's civil about it though, I'll give him that.

     

    I'll be the first to admit to being a GW2 fanboy as well! Appreciate the note on the civility. Too much venom tends to fly over what, ultimately, are just games.

    Oderint, dum metuant.
    image

  • ShanniaShannia Huntingdon, NYPosts: 2,096Member
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Massively, who just voted GW2 game of the year, is not rosey-eyed fanbois chees'n on the current hotness-

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/12/19/where-guild-wars-2-goes-wrong/

    Have some pretty interesting and intelligent arguments against the game that I tend to agree with.

    Pretty much highlights the issues I have with the game almost perfectly.

    To peak your interest - the highlights in bullet point form-

    -Roles are horribly underexplained and unclear

    -Dynamic events don't work in their role as quest replacements

    -Area flow is problematic

    -Crafting is a freaking mess

    -The story is weak

     

    Those are some serious issues, but as much as I love the game, I have to agree with the writer of the article.

    How does a AAA MMORPG get released with those serious flaws?  I believe it's because projects are so large these companies end up running out of money during development and that decisions have to be made on what they will address after release.

    This problem has been getting more profound over the past five years.  Prime examples are AoC, DFO, and WAR-Z.  Each of these games way over promised and seriously underachieved at release.  We all know the history of AoC & DFO, but look at WAR-Z.  Their release was so bad, Valve pulled the game from Steam and now the developer of WAR-Z is defending his company to the point I don't know if they will ever recover from this launch...

    Point is, it is obvious companies are running out of cash because no one wants to release products that end up with reviews like what WAR-Z is getting right now.  To help curb this, why not have these companies to have paid beta playing with full wipes at the actually release?  The players can pay a one time fee that is subtracted from the retail price at release.  Players get to sneak peak the game helping debug while developers get a much needed cash infusion the last six months of game development before launch.

     

    Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware

    "Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."

  • KhinRuniteKhinRunite ManilaPosts: 879Member

    I strong think it's not neccessary to add more ways to "force"  us players out of a zone than what we already have. It will greatly add a more "on-rails" experience to the game. Besides, I can think of reasons why one will move out of a zone

    1.) The zone map will be completed eventually, prompting the player to move to the next one

    2.) The zone will get old to the player, with repeating DEs, etc.

    3.) Personal stories drive players to different zones

    4.) Crafting/farming

    Although I do wish karma vendors would sell scaled up items; something that disappointed me since beta. It's better now though, since veteran mobs and up tend to drop levelled items.

  • MardukkMardukk Posts: 1,557Member Uncommon

    Well, I don't agree with his points other than the story is weak.  This game has many other smallish issues that he didn't even touch on.  Not treating players like adults with the freedom for consequences to their actions one example.  Classes lack distinction due to PvP balance...ugh and on and on.

     

    I can't believe he wants someone to tell him when to leave a zone.  The less linear hand holding the better.  I also don't think every game needs "roles" for everyone.  It's funny that you both agree the game has issues but don't really agree on any of the reasons other than lame ass story.

  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Massively, who just voted GW2 game of the year, is not rosey-eyed fanbois chees'n on the current hotness-

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/12/19/where-guild-wars-2-goes-wrong/

    Have some pretty interesting and intelligent arguments against the game that I tend to agree with.

    Pretty much highlights the issues I have with the game almost perfectly.

    To peak your interest - the highlights in bullet point form-

    -Roles are horribly underexplained and unclear

    -Dynamic events don't work in their role as quest replacements

    -Area flow is problematic

    -Crafting is a freaking mess

    -The story is weak

     

    Its an opinion piece, and you happen to agree with it. That doesnt make it any more or less honest than what other people have written. But at least the person backs up what they have said with reasoning, rather than baseless catch phrases.

    The story for me varied. Some parts were good, others boring. Mostly the parts with Trehearne were boring. Desiny's Edge were far more interesting to interact with. As others have mentioned, the background chatter is so much more interesting than half the story dialogue, its as if they put their A team in the world chatter and let the interns do the main story.

    I prefer dynamic events over quests, but they do seem to confuse a lot of players, who think there are none - when in fact they are just not paying attention to cues from NPCs and the world in general.

    The argument about area flow is that you don't get rewards for your level, which is a lie, because drops scale with you. I can go to the newbie zones with my 80 and level 80 items will drop. Yes karma merchants dont, but you can easily go somewhere your level and use the same currency you earnt elsewhere on those vendors.

    Crafting.... eh.... its better than WoW and Rift, not as good as Vanguard and EQ2. Its a pretty decent medium between discovery and express crafting.

    I think combat in general is underexplained. The classes themselves are fine, but people really dont understand how important combo fields and finishers are. Or tactical use of support skills. People think the game is just about loading up on DPS skills and then wonder why it feels like a suicide zerg. When played properly the combat is fantastic, with a bad group it can feel like a chore. 

     

  • grimalgrimal Stamford, CTPosts: 2,874Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Volkon
    Originally posted by elocke
    Originally posted by Zalmon
    Originally posted by Volkon

    Meh... it's opinions, and opinions I disagree with. The fact that he's worrying about how clear roles are being defined shows he's still thinking in a more archaic "roles" mindset from too much trinity training in earlier games. 

     

    It's an interesting opinion piece, nothing more.

    Umm..thank you captain obvious. yes it is an opinion peice just like saying that GW2 is best MMO of 2012. Everything is an opinion and nothing more.

    Don't feel bad.  Volkon is an obvious GW2 fanboi.  Just look at his recent posts regarding such.  He can't be budged at all.  :D  At least he's civil about it though, I'll give him that.

     

    I'll be the first to admit to being a GW2 fanboy as well! Appreciate the note on the civility. Too much venom tends to fly over what, ultimately, are just games.

    See, being a fanboy blinds you to any and all persepective other than blind devotion.

    Take me, for instance. 

    I like SWTOR.  I like it a lot.  But I don't consider myself a fanboy.  I see the linear gameplay and other faults with it and try not to defend the obvious shortcomings.

    Being a fanboy or hater really adds nothing to any conversation because you are not able to discuss anything.  It's just all praise or hate.....and with that you really can't "discuss".

  • KingJigglyKingJiggly Simpsonville, SCPosts: 777Member

    I can respect that. It just sounds like he is someone who likes to go from quest hub to quest hub with the holy trinity. Some people like it that way, I rather hate it. 

    But, it is still goty so I am happy. 

  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member
    Originally posted by Shannia
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Massively, who just voted GW2 game of the year, is not rosey-eyed fanbois chees'n on the current hotness-

    http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/12/19/where-guild-wars-2-goes-wrong/

    Have some pretty interesting and intelligent arguments against the game that I tend to agree with.

    Pretty much highlights the issues I have with the game almost perfectly.

    To peak your interest - the highlights in bullet point form-

    -Roles are horribly underexplained and unclear

    -Dynamic events don't work in their role as quest replacements

    -Area flow is problematic

    -Crafting is a freaking mess

    -The story is weak

     

    Those are some serious issues, but as much as I love the game, I have to agree with the writer of the article.

    How does a AAA MMORPG get released with those serious flaws? ...

     

     

    What exactly are these "serious flaws" of which you speak?

     

    Roles.. of course they're "horribly underexplained and unclear". There never was the intention of "roles" such as in trinity based games. If you actually look at your skills and traits it becomes clear that you're meant to do a bit of everything at the right times. My mesmer will be dealing damage, removing boons, applying conditions, knocking back foes, removing conditions on myself or allies... all situationally. I'm not a tank, a healer or an agent of dps.

    Dynamic event, to me, wonderfully replace quests to the point that I can't stomach the thought of an archaic quest-bang system ever again. Dudes with "!" are dead to me. Things should be happening, not static counters in a generic log.

    Area Flow? I find it smooth, flowing and pretty well freeing. I'm not being led by a ring in the nose from one quest hub to the next in a predetermined set path through a static world. I'm going where I go, getting where I get, and progressing along the way through content that always remains a challenge.

    Crafting... I've found having a 400 jewelcrafter to be a real benefit to my characters. My mesmer is 400 cook and 400 tailor... food and clothing covered! I like it, but of course different crafting likes and dislikes will always be relative. I do wish there was fishing however. 

    The story... maybe it's the inner fanboy in me, maybe it's having read Destiny's Edge, but I like the story. Although I will admit to having too much Trahearne and not enough Tybalt.

     

    I don't see any of these as flaws, more game benefits that make GW2 stand out above prior MMOs.

    Oderint, dum metuant.
    image

  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member
    Originally posted by grimal
    Originally posted by Volkon
    Originally posted by elocke
    Originally posted by Zalmon
    Originally posted by Volkon

    Meh... it's opinions, and opinions I disagree with. The fact that he's worrying about how clear roles are being defined shows he's still thinking in a more archaic "roles" mindset from too much trinity training in earlier games. 

     

    It's an interesting opinion piece, nothing more.

    Umm..thank you captain obvious. yes it is an opinion peice just like saying that GW2 is best MMO of 2012. Everything is an opinion and nothing more.

    Don't feel bad.  Volkon is an obvious GW2 fanboi.  Just look at his recent posts regarding such.  He can't be budged at all.  :D  At least he's civil about it though, I'll give him that.

     

    I'll be the first to admit to being a GW2 fanboy as well! Appreciate the note on the civility. Too much venom tends to fly over what, ultimately, are just games.

    See, being a fanboy blinds you to any and all persepective other than blind devotion.

    Take me, for instance. 

    I like SWTOR.  I like it a lot.  But I don't consider myself a fanboy.  I see the linear gameplay and other faults with it and try not to defend the obvious shortcomings.

    Being a fanboy or hater really adds nothing to any conversation because you are not able to discuss anything.  It's just all praise or hate.....and with that you really can't "discuss".

    You wound me. I definitely disagree with the negative crowd on most things, but I feel I've been fairly good at expressing myself in a positive discussive manner. 

    Oderint, dum metuant.
    image

  • ShanniaShannia Huntingdon, NYPosts: 2,096Member
    Originally posted by Volkon

     

    I don't see any of these as flaws, more game benefits that make GW2 stand out above prior MMOs.

    Just wanted to say thank you for completely ingoring the point of my reply.

    Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware

    "Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."

  • grimalgrimal Stamford, CTPosts: 2,874Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Volkon
    Originally posted by grimal
    Originally posted by Volkon
    Originally posted by elocke
    Originally posted by Zalmon
    Originally posted by Volkon

    Meh... it's opinions, and opinions I disagree with. The fact that he's worrying about how clear roles are being defined shows he's still thinking in a more archaic "roles" mindset from too much trinity training in earlier games. 

     

    It's an interesting opinion piece, nothing more.

    Umm..thank you captain obvious. yes it is an opinion peice just like saying that GW2 is best MMO of 2012. Everything is an opinion and nothing more.

    Don't feel bad.  Volkon is an obvious GW2 fanboi.  Just look at his recent posts regarding such.  He can't be budged at all.  :D  At least he's civil about it though, I'll give him that.

     

    I'll be the first to admit to being a GW2 fanboy as well! Appreciate the note on the civility. Too much venom tends to fly over what, ultimately, are just games.

    See, being a fanboy blinds you to any and all persepective other than blind devotion.

    Take me, for instance. 

    I like SWTOR.  I like it a lot.  But I don't consider myself a fanboy.  I see the linear gameplay and other faults with it and try not to defend the obvious shortcomings.

    Being a fanboy or hater really adds nothing to any conversation because you are not able to discuss anything.  It's just all praise or hate.....and with that you really can't "discuss".

    You wound me. I definitely disagree with the negative crowd on most things, but I feel I've been fairly good at expressing myself in a positive discussive manner. 

    Ha.  I didn't mean you in particular.  In hindsight, I shouldn't have really targeted you like that.  I just mean those on either extreme.

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