I'm not saying that the dev's should copy-paste MobA's. I'm saying that this genre has a lot of things that could be implemented in MMORPG's.
ArenaNet tried to implement some things from MobA's with Guild Wars 2. For example in DotA you have just 1 hero from 105 that can taunt. The holy trinty doesn't exist in Moba's. You have at least 5 or six different roles.
I simply say that I want this things in MMORPG's. I cannot understand users that are crying after the holy trinity. Why should we have 3 roles to fufill: DPS, Tanker and Healer when we could have 10 or 15? Why should be one shot by another player just because he plays 10 hours per day and I'm playing 10 hours per week?
If you will ever play a MobA you will see that it has a greater complexity then the PVP of a MMORPG.
I don't think that's a fair generalization to make. I have played my share of Dota, and while I agree that the quick changes and tactical combat make for interesting PvP, there really is no reason this can't exist in an MMORPG. I also appreciate MMORPGs for the reason Yamota mentions; they involve persistent worlds. There is no way to "win" an MMORPG, at least not to the degree that one wins a "match" in Dota or LoL. In MMORPGs you have resource control, exploration, player-generated content etc. It's an added layer of complexity. The one thing MOBAs may have going for them are the quick action. It's like watching a basketball game. The MMORPG I play is more like a continuous game of Risk (or "Go", if you prefer).
The Gear vs Player Skill is a debate that I've seen kicked around this site for years now. In the MMO I play, player skill is a far greater factor than gear due to the "twitch" mechanics in Combat. I'm not talking about button presses; I mean things like spatial memory and awareness, OODA loops, and formations. The tactical PvP is there; simplicity overlying great complexity.
In a station conquest, one could easily play one out of 10 to 15 roles. You could be a defensive fighter, on turret repairs, interdicting enemy supply lines, a resupplier, a bomber, a bomber escort... each of these could be further broken down into heavy / light, close combat / ranged etc. Then beneath it all is the fundamental understanding of the physics and using this to one's advantage. Multifaceted would be a word to consider.
Saying one entire genre has greater complexity in PvP than one other entire genre is a gross generalization and ignores many finer aspects inherent to each particular game. I think games in which gear plays a greater role than player skill have a greater propensity to fall prey to the "pay-to-win" syndrome than games in which player skill is more important (Galaga, for example), and even then it's not a granted necessity; it depends on the business model. The bottom line is that if a game does not sell virtual goods for real cash, it cannot by definition be pay-to-win. Vendetta Online is one of the few MMORPGs that has so far followed this approach absolutely, and for a great length of time.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
I'm not saying that the dev's should copy-paste MobA's. I'm saying that this genre has a lot of things that could be implemented in MMORPG's.
ArenaNet tried to implement some things from MobA's with Guild Wars 2. For example in DotA you have just 1 hero from 105 that can taunt. The holy trinty doesn't exist in Moba's. You have at least 5 or six different roles.
I simply say that I want this things in MMORPG's. I cannot understand users that are crying after the holy trinity. Why should we have 3 roles to fufill: DPS, Tanker and Healer when we could have 10 or 15? Why should be one shot by another player just because he plays 10 hours per day and I'm playing 10 hours per week?
If you will ever play a MobA you will see that it has a greater complexity then the PVP of a MMORPG.
But some people like the holy trinity, i for one do. Now i have no problem with adding roles, or have your role decided by a talent tree or something, but i dislike the system GW2 used where everyone is a bit of everything.
Some of us have grown up with D&D or other games, we want that warrior + priest + mage/rogue/archer theme because its what we like. Its nice that there are games like that for people like me, and games like GW2 for people like you. But taste differs, and whats fun to you may not be fun to me. Complexity doesn't even come into it, some people like baseball some like football and some people even watch soccer. You won't improve soccer by adding football rules to it, its different games for different folks.
"Every game that is built with microtransactions is P2W."
Followed by:
"but I don't have any 1st hand knowledge of any of those."
Classic.
GW2 still not pay to win. You can buy experience buffs, however they are not at all necessary and only serve to get exp points and not at all help you complete objectives or gain items that could be construed as "P2W".
Refugee from UO,EQ,AC,AC2,AO,DAOC,L2,SB,HZ,CoH,PT,EQ2,WoW,VG,SWG,EVE,WAR,DF,MO,AI,GA,LOTRO, SWTOR... Gw2 on Deck
Most games that have a market/cash shop are not pay to win. They just have nice things in there to squeeze every bit of money out they can. Sadly this affects the game itself imo. I played EQ2 for years where they created content for those who PLAY the game. Now they develop most content for you to purchase.
So now it goes like this. Go do a hard dungeon here's some gear but it looks like crap, so why don't you purchase some nice "appearance gear" to make it shiny and sparkly for $10+. And that ugly old mount you have, why not pay $15-$30 for a nice shiny one. I remember when you actually worked for good stuff, you got good stuff. Games now are starting to piss me off and this needs to change for the furture of gaming.
Comments
I don't think that's a fair generalization to make. I have played my share of Dota, and while I agree that the quick changes and tactical combat make for interesting PvP, there really is no reason this can't exist in an MMORPG. I also appreciate MMORPGs for the reason Yamota mentions; they involve persistent worlds. There is no way to "win" an MMORPG, at least not to the degree that one wins a "match" in Dota or LoL. In MMORPGs you have resource control, exploration, player-generated content etc. It's an added layer of complexity. The one thing MOBAs may have going for them are the quick action. It's like watching a basketball game. The MMORPG I play is more like a continuous game of Risk (or "Go", if you prefer).
The Gear vs Player Skill is a debate that I've seen kicked around this site for years now. In the MMO I play, player skill is a far greater factor than gear due to the "twitch" mechanics in Combat. I'm not talking about button presses; I mean things like spatial memory and awareness, OODA loops, and formations. The tactical PvP is there; simplicity overlying great complexity.
In a station conquest, one could easily play one out of 10 to 15 roles. You could be a defensive fighter, on turret repairs, interdicting enemy supply lines, a resupplier, a bomber, a bomber escort... each of these could be further broken down into heavy / light, close combat / ranged etc. Then beneath it all is the fundamental understanding of the physics and using this to one's advantage. Multifaceted would be a word to consider.
Saying one entire genre has greater complexity in PvP than one other entire genre is a gross generalization and ignores many finer aspects inherent to each particular game. I think games in which gear plays a greater role than player skill have a greater propensity to fall prey to the "pay-to-win" syndrome than games in which player skill is more important (Galaga, for example), and even then it's not a granted necessity; it depends on the business model. The bottom line is that if a game does not sell virtual goods for real cash, it cannot by definition be pay-to-win. Vendetta Online is one of the few MMORPGs that has so far followed this approach absolutely, and for a great length of time.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
But some people like the holy trinity, i for one do. Now i have no problem with adding roles, or have your role decided by a talent tree or something, but i dislike the system GW2 used where everyone is a bit of everything.
Some of us have grown up with D&D or other games, we want that warrior + priest + mage/rogue/archer theme because its what we like. Its nice that there are games like that for people like me, and games like GW2 for people like you. But taste differs, and whats fun to you may not be fun to me. Complexity doesn't even come into it, some people like baseball some like football and some people even watch soccer. You won't improve soccer by adding football rules to it, its different games for different folks.
Secrets of Dragon?s Spine Trailer.. !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwT9cFVQCMw
Best MMOs ever played: Ultima, EvE, SW Galaxies, Age of Conan, The Secret World
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2X_SbZCHpc&t=21s
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The Return of ELITE !
thinktank001 says:
"Every game that is built with microtransactions is P2W."
Followed by:
"but I don't have any 1st hand knowledge of any of those."
Classic.
GW2 still not pay to win. You can buy experience buffs, however they are not at all necessary and only serve to get exp points and not at all help you complete objectives or gain items that could be construed as "P2W".
Refugee from UO,EQ,AC,AC2,AO,DAOC,L2,SB,HZ,CoH,PT,EQ2,WoW,VG,SWG,EVE,WAR,DF,MO,AI,GA,LOTRO, SWTOR... Gw2 on Deck
Most games that have a market/cash shop are not pay to win. They just have nice things in there to squeeze every bit of money out they can. Sadly this affects the game itself imo. I played EQ2 for years where they created content for those who PLAY the game. Now they develop most content for you to purchase.
So now it goes like this. Go do a hard dungeon here's some gear but it looks like crap, so why don't you purchase some nice "appearance gear" to make it shiny and sparkly for $10+. And that ugly old mount you have, why not pay $15-$30 for a nice shiny one. I remember when you actually worked for good stuff, you got good stuff. Games now are starting to piss me off and this needs to change for the furture of gaming.
Completely free and still not p2w.
http://army-of-chocolat.minitroopers.com