This is less than what modern infantry carries. Its a common misconception to think that knights and heavy infantry were slow, this is of course if we are talking about battelfields. In arenas they made the armor extra thick and heavy.
So while you cant do backflips and the like you were far from slow, in fact it was quite easy to run. The same way infantry nowdays can run with all the equipment they carry. You just need to train your body accordingly.
Can you actually back any of this up? Run for how long?
Another point .. real world battle is 99% logistic and maneuvering, and 1% actually fighting. In the ancient knight and cavalry time, armies marched for DAYS before fighting for hours.
Do you want a game that requires you to play 99% marching in a straight line and complains about bad food?
Oh, many of the soldiers also die from DISEASES, not combat. Do you want to play a soldier coming down with something and lie in bed moaning for hours?
Now that is realism, and i want no part in it.
Actually, EVE does a very good job simulating this in the game environment, fleet battles and soverignty holding are in fact excercises in logistics and manueveuring, making sure your navy is in the right place at the right time, and hoping random acts of God, Weather what have you (server lag/disconnects) don't screw up the plan.
Even smaller combat is very reliant on "guessing" what ship fitting the opponents will bring and properly countering it. You of course try to take the guess work out of it by using advanced scouts, actually infiltrating their corps with spy alt characters, and even getting people up so high in rank they can disband their opponents from within.
Another interesting corallary, in fact in EVE you'll hear tons of bitching from your fleetmates when you have to jump 20-50 hops to get to the front, (not always in a straight line) and people do suffer through junk food and bio breaks trying to stick with it and stay together in order to arrive in a unified and coordinated fashion.
OK, this one they don't have in EVE, but I do think that's an interesting mechanic that might work well in a more medival MMORPG setting, if someone travels too far, too quickly, they could be afflicted with a disease and need to visit some sort of healer or consume some sort of spell (that would be somewhat difficullt to obtain or use) or perhaps just suffer through some sort of "forced" cooldown. (theres that F-Word....ooh, my bad)
Imagine, you and your guildmates travel halfway across the world to attack another enemy castle, but find that 25% of your team mates are afflicted with a disease, starvation or something that reduces their combat effectiveness by some percentage, maybe even significant amounts such as 50%.
So, do you press forward, hoping the surprise on your opponents will carry the day, or do you stop for a period of time, maybe even a day to recouperate and get back to full battle prowesss. Meanwhile, if your opponents have been properly posting scouts, they'd have an extra day to prepare for your assault and maybe stave off your attack.
The possibilities are almost endless, and I would find it a terrific addition to the strategic element of a MMORPG.
But I know, I know, you're going to tell me that wouldn't be any "fun" for you...to which of course I would answer, who cares, we're talking about what I like.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
This is less than what modern infantry carries. Its a common misconception to think that knights and heavy infantry were slow, this is of course if we are talking about battelfields. In arenas they made the armor extra thick and heavy.
So while you cant do backflips and the like you were far from slow, in fact it was quite easy to run. The same way infantry nowdays can run with all the equipment they carry. You just need to train your body accordingly.
Can you actually back any of this up? Run for how long?
Another point .. real world battle is 99% logistic and maneuvering, and 1% actually fighting. In the ancient knight and cavalry time, armies marched for DAYS before fighting for hours.
Do you want a game that requires you to play 99% marching in a straight line and complains about bad food?
Oh, many of the soldiers also die from DISEASES, not combat. Do you want to play a soldier coming down with something and lie in bed moaning for hours?
Now that is realism, and i want no part in it.
I agree on this. I had to go back and read what some posters were saying, but too much realism like this would make for a very boring game.
However, gojng part way and offering other things to do along the way can be a very good thing, in my opinion. Travel, for example, if it were an adventure in itself with wandering MOBs and random events, discoveries, some changes to the game world (MOB camps, a new cave once in a while, new burrows and crypts uncovered). Challenges of the journey. And in this regard, needs for food and water (not to die by, but to maintain performance) can offer a degree of planning for that journey, increasing the use of bodies of water or hunting fields, etc.
This would be a different game play than simply hack and slash. And it adds to what players can do. For example, building a supply store in key locations, and this could be a public merchant store or a guild's private warehouse store of supplies. In this way, it can add to "worldly play".
Some many of us actually want more game play along these lines. More requirements that some may not consider "fun", but adds "interest" and "ownership" to the game through worldly game play.
I wouldn't necessarily be horrible if there was something to do, or if something happened differently enough every time you made the journey.
That is not realism. In the real world, often traveling is boring ... nothing happened or nothing to do. LIke when you march an army to face an enemy, often you walk for days without anything happening.
I actually was thinking about trying Skyrim again the other day, (I burned out on it rather quickly my first go around) and was considering not using the fast travel option, because it just seemed so "lobby like" and unrealistic when I kept blnking around the world.
It is certainly unrealistic. But that is the point. It is their because most gamers don't want that realism. I know i don't. Realism is often boring. The other part about waiting for a store to open is even worse. It is guarantee nothing interesting will happen.
Do you really want to wait in front of a store for hours (like those who wait for the new iphone) in a GAME?
Even waiting for a store to open might not be bad, if there was tavern nearby with worthwhile activities going on while I waited. (or slept even)
I realize these concepts don't appeal to you (or many others I suppose) but they do to me and I may go back and try the game with a different bent just see what it would be like.
I did. I played EQ .. will never again. Boring stuff. I don't play games to be bored. If you don't think waiting in front of a store is boring, be my guest. You *can* do that in SKYRIM.
Heh, maybe I'll do a permadeath try, see how far I go and how differently I'll play the game if dying once means self killing my character. Wonder how far I could really get?
You can do PD in Diablo 3 too. It is certainly your perogative of how you want your gaming. The good news is you can always enforce some of the realism yourself.
Originally posted by Kyleran I actually was thinking about trying Skyrim again the other day, (I burned out on it rather quickly my first go around) and was considering not using the fast travel option, because it just seemed so "lobby like" and unrealistic when I kept blnking around the world.
I actually play skyrim with Fast traveled disabled via a mod, and scenic caravans to actually travel in real time....It took me like 50 hours to complete dawn guard running back and forth.(which was both frustrating and fulfilling)
Some days i had to sleep in real life because i didn't have the energy to ride back to fort dawnguard..
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
Originally posted by nariusseldon That is not realism. In the real world, often traveling is boring ... nothing happened or nothing to do. LIke when you march an army to face an enemy, often you walk for days without anything happening.
It is certainly unrealistic. But that is the point. It is their because most gamers don't want that realism. I know i don't. Realism is often boring. The other part about waiting for a store to open is even worse. It is guarantee nothing interesting will happen.
Do you really want to wait in front of a store for hours (like those who wait for the new iphone) in a GAME?
I did. I played EQ .. will never again. Boring stuff. I don't play games to be bored. If you don't think waiting in front of a store is boring, be my guest. You *can* do that in SKYRIM.
You can do PD in Diablo 3 too. It is certainly your perogative of how you want your gaming. The good news is you can always enforce some of the realism yourself.
I don't know where you live but ive had some crazy things happen because i "chose to go for a walk"
And im sure there are other countries (oh i don't know Africa) where its a Journey just to survive the day.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
There is a workable area of compromise between realism and fun. I do think there is a market for games like that. But I don't think it would be a large market. Bear in mind:
- most gamers are young males and they want constant conflict and destruction; many young girl gamers do too
- realism cuts against the desire for constant conflict and destruction
I do think there is a niche for virtual worlds. But right now it would take a brave company to forego the certainty of the bottom line for the risk of striking into the unknown.
But that doesn't mean I didn't love Blessed Teleport Scrolls in my first MMORPG Lineage 1 where a player could set up to 30 waypoints in the game and use these scrolls to instantly teleport to them. (You had to walk to the area the first time to expose the map however).
They weren't free, in fact, a fair share of every players game income/time was spent either farming or buying BTS's. I got rich selling them as I farmed them with my Bugbear Mage in the ant caves.
First question: what's a bugbear mage?
As for your question I would say:
limited fast travel. making it possible but either very expensive or on a timer or allowing certain classes the ability, etc
I would want game play above the need of me having to create an axe in order to continue. I would like the need for the use of food.
I dont' like auction houses though wouldn't mind a "real" auction house where an item goes up to bid and people bid on it until there is a winner. Prefer player stores for buying and selling.
I dont' like quests unless they have more involvement than "accept" opening up the map to see a glowing "*" on the map and then running to that "*" and running back. That's not a quest it's a relay race.
No need to watch a character relieve himself.
equipment degredation so there is an economy of player made goods.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Heh, maybe I'll do a permadeath try, see how far I go and how differently I'll play the game if dying once means self killing my character. Wonder how far I could really get?
You can do PD in Diablo 3 too. It is certainly your perogative of how you want your gaming. The good news is you can always enforce some of the realism yourself.
I'd like to address this part.
I see this comment quite a bit from people. The "if you want it so badly just delete your charcter" or "If you want to lose items on death, just do it, you have that choice".
On the surface it seems to make sense but it really has nothing to do with the idea of playing games as a shared experience.
if everyone is playing backyard football it takes a bit of the experience away if only one person wants tackle and the rest want flag football.
Playing monopoly would lose a bit if only one player ever paid luxury taxes and was sent to jail.
the idea of these things isn't for one person to experience a "set back". The idea is that everyone shares the same experience, has the same chances for success but equally has the same chances for failure.
That's the fun part, that's the reason to play a game. Other than the obvious "I'm playing football with my six year old niece so we don't want to hurt her" it tends to take the game of football away from being a game and makes it more about "just allowing the niece to feel included".
Which is fine but it's not why people play games.
If I play a game and there is no sting for me then that's boring. It's even more boring if I don't get the sting but someone else does. There's no sense of achievement if everything I do gets rewarded and there is no downside.
Which then goes back to "people are different and therefore games should be different'.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I'd like to see nutrition, hunger, and uh.. potties matter in a game. Not out of any sick perversion or anything mind you. But it'd be funny to see someone type bio, and both the player and the character have to visit the WC for a moment.
Not to mention the %5 speed boost vs the -15% accuracy condition when a toon has to pee.
Originally posted by 3-4thElf I'd like to see nutrition, hunger, and uh.. potties matter in a game. Not out of any sick perversion or anything mind you. But it'd be funny to see someone type bio, and both the player and the character have to visit the WC for a moment.Not to mention the %5 speed boost vs the -15% accuracy condition when a toon has to pee.
lol.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
I wouldn't necessarily be horrible if there was something to do, or if something happened differently enough every time you made the journey.
That is not realism. In the real world, often traveling is boring ... nothing happened or nothing to do. LIke when you march an army to face an enemy, often you walk for days without anything happening.
Which of course is why game worlds make approximations of realism, rather than going for the full monty. Travel for 3 days or months to face your enemy, a bit too much realism, but how much travel is desireable to make a more realistic virtual world where travel times impact the strategy and logistics, such as in EVE?
I actually was thinking about trying Skyrim again the other day, (I burned out on it rather quickly my first go around) and was considering not using the fast travel option, because it just seemed so "lobby like" and unrealistic when I kept blnking around the world.
It is certainly unrealistic. But that is the point. It is their because most gamers don't want that realism. (Ky> lets not go into my opinion on "most gamers", won't end well) I know i don't. Realism is often boring. The other part about waiting for a store to open is even worse. It is guarantee nothing interesting will happen.
Do you really want to wait in front of a store for hours (like those who wait for the new iphone) in a GAME?
Ky> You really aren't this obtuse, you do this on purpose just to help up our post counts right? In the real world, what do you do if you to the store this evening (Sunday night) and find it closed (as most are here where I live?). Do you actually wait around for it to open, or do you go off and do something else and come back tomorrow, or even next week when its more convenient for you to do so. Same thing can happen in a video game, and it makes it more realistic than just speeding up the clock, which is simply a convenience mechanism so you don't have to vary from your chosen path and keep doing things in a sequence you desire, which isn't very realistic at all in my book.
Even waiting for a store to open might not be bad, if there was tavern nearby with worthwhile activities going on while I waited. (or slept even)
I realize these concepts don't appeal to you (or many others I suppose) but they do to me and I may go back and try the game with a different bent just see what it would be like.
I did. I played EQ .. will never again. Boring stuff. I don't play games to be bored. If you don't think waiting in front of a store is boring, be my guest. You *can* do that in SKYRIM.
Kr> As I mentioned, I wouldn't wait in front of the store, I'll head to the tavern and socialize until dawn when the stores finally do open up and continue my journey from there.
Heh, maybe I'll do a permadeath try, see how far I go and how differently I'll play the game if dying once means self killing my character. Wonder how far I could really get?
You can do PD in Diablo 3 too. It is certainly your perogative of how you want your gaming. The good news is you can always enforce some of the realism yourself.
Ky> Well now, in a single player game, I'm the only player, so any rules I chose to enforce only impact me. But once we're playing together in the same world, the rules need to be consistent for all of us, so if I'm going to experience perma death, so should you.
To bastardize a famous quote, Don't ask for easier games, ask to be better gamers.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Comments
Actually, EVE does a very good job simulating this in the game environment, fleet battles and soverignty holding are in fact excercises in logistics and manueveuring, making sure your navy is in the right place at the right time, and hoping random acts of God, Weather what have you (server lag/disconnects) don't screw up the plan.
Even smaller combat is very reliant on "guessing" what ship fitting the opponents will bring and properly countering it. You of course try to take the guess work out of it by using advanced scouts, actually infiltrating their corps with spy alt characters, and even getting people up so high in rank they can disband their opponents from within.
Another interesting corallary, in fact in EVE you'll hear tons of bitching from your fleetmates when you have to jump 20-50 hops to get to the front, (not always in a straight line) and people do suffer through junk food and bio breaks trying to stick with it and stay together in order to arrive in a unified and coordinated fashion.
OK, this one they don't have in EVE, but I do think that's an interesting mechanic that might work well in a more medival MMORPG setting, if someone travels too far, too quickly, they could be afflicted with a disease and need to visit some sort of healer or consume some sort of spell (that would be somewhat difficullt to obtain or use) or perhaps just suffer through some sort of "forced" cooldown. (theres that F-Word....ooh, my bad)
Imagine, you and your guildmates travel halfway across the world to attack another enemy castle, but find that 25% of your team mates are afflicted with a disease, starvation or something that reduces their combat effectiveness by some percentage, maybe even significant amounts such as 50%.
So, do you press forward, hoping the surprise on your opponents will carry the day, or do you stop for a period of time, maybe even a day to recouperate and get back to full battle prowesss. Meanwhile, if your opponents have been properly posting scouts, they'd have an extra day to prepare for your assault and maybe stave off your attack.
The possibilities are almost endless, and I would find it a terrific addition to the strategic element of a MMORPG.
But I know, I know, you're going to tell me that wouldn't be any "fun" for you...to which of course I would answer, who cares, we're talking about what I like.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I agree on this. I had to go back and read what some posters were saying, but too much realism like this would make for a very boring game.
However, gojng part way and offering other things to do along the way can be a very good thing, in my opinion. Travel, for example, if it were an adventure in itself with wandering MOBs and random events, discoveries, some changes to the game world (MOB camps, a new cave once in a while, new burrows and crypts uncovered). Challenges of the journey. And in this regard, needs for food and water (not to die by, but to maintain performance) can offer a degree of planning for that journey, increasing the use of bodies of water or hunting fields, etc.
This would be a different game play than simply hack and slash. And it adds to what players can do. For example, building a supply store in key locations, and this could be a public merchant store or a guild's private warehouse store of supplies. In this way, it can add to "worldly play".
Some many of us actually want more game play along these lines. More requirements that some may not consider "fun", but adds "interest" and "ownership" to the game through worldly game play.
Once upon a time....
I actually play skyrim with Fast traveled disabled via a mod, and scenic caravans to actually travel in real time....It took me like 50 hours to complete dawn guard running back and forth.(which was both frustrating and fulfilling)
Some days i had to sleep in real life because i didn't have the energy to ride back to fort dawnguard..
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
I don't know where you live but ive had some crazy things happen because i "chose to go for a walk"
And im sure there are other countries (oh i don't know Africa) where its a Journey just to survive the day.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
There is a workable area of compromise between realism and fun. I do think there is a market for games like that. But I don't think it would be a large market. Bear in mind:
- most gamers are young males and they want constant conflict and destruction; many young girl gamers do too
- realism cuts against the desire for constant conflict and destruction
I do think there is a niche for virtual worlds. But right now it would take a brave company to forego the certainty of the bottom line for the risk of striking into the unknown.
First question: what's a bugbear mage?
As for your question I would say:
limited fast travel. making it possible but either very expensive or on a timer or allowing certain classes the ability, etc
I would want game play above the need of me having to create an axe in order to continue. I would like the need for the use of food.
I dont' like auction houses though wouldn't mind a "real" auction house where an item goes up to bid and people bid on it until there is a winner. Prefer player stores for buying and selling.
I dont' like quests unless they have more involvement than "accept" opening up the map to see a glowing "*" on the map and then running to that "*" and running back. That's not a quest it's a relay race.
No need to watch a character relieve himself.
equipment degredation so there is an economy of player made goods.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I'd like to address this part.
I see this comment quite a bit from people. The "if you want it so badly just delete your charcter" or "If you want to lose items on death, just do it, you have that choice".
On the surface it seems to make sense but it really has nothing to do with the idea of playing games as a shared experience.
if everyone is playing backyard football it takes a bit of the experience away if only one person wants tackle and the rest want flag football.
Playing monopoly would lose a bit if only one player ever paid luxury taxes and was sent to jail.
the idea of these things isn't for one person to experience a "set back". The idea is that everyone shares the same experience, has the same chances for success but equally has the same chances for failure.
That's the fun part, that's the reason to play a game. Other than the obvious "I'm playing football with my six year old niece so we don't want to hurt her" it tends to take the game of football away from being a game and makes it more about "just allowing the niece to feel included".
Which is fine but it's not why people play games.
If I play a game and there is no sting for me then that's boring. It's even more boring if I don't get the sting but someone else does. There's no sense of achievement if everything I do gets rewarded and there is no downside.
Which then goes back to "people are different and therefore games should be different'.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I'd like to see nutrition, hunger, and uh.. potties matter in a game. Not out of any sick perversion or anything mind you. But it'd be funny to see someone type bio, and both the player and the character have to visit the WC for a moment.
Not to mention the %5 speed boost vs the -15% accuracy condition when a toon has to pee.
a yo ho ho
lol.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
To bastardize a famous quote, Don't ask for easier games, ask to be better gamers.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon