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MMO's are no longer "Worlds"

CianoCiano Not telling, HIPosts: 34Member

I'm probably thread number 1 million but I wanted to voice my own thoughts on this matter. I'm about 29. I've played nearly every MMO since Sierra's "The Realm" back in the 90's. I cut my MMO teeth on Ultima Online, Dabbled in Asheron's Call, Shadowbane, EVE, Auto Assault, Meridian 59, Planetside 1 and 2, Star Wars Galaxies, Warhammer,  Darkfall, Pirates of the Burning Sea, and a whole host of other game's I've forgotten over the years.

 

I've noticed the MMO's came out of the text based genre of Online games called Mudds. They were text only so people relied on innovative ways to create "interactive" worlds and communities. Being a GM meant somthing. He or She was a god in the gaming world. They set the stage for the story, and determined the results of world events and player actions. In Meridian 59, players and GM's sat on a regional counsel of judges that put players on trial for real or imagined crimes. I remember the coolest thing ever was being put on trial for an attempted Pking. I had a GM as the judge, a player and the victim were the prosecution, and a volunteer player. I of course argued innocent and claimed that it was an accident, I was just practicing my sword swing "roleplay of course *gasp* people roleplay?" and accidently hit the other player. Of course the prosecution got theatrical and accused me of being a murderer and a liar. After a bit of back and forth the judge sentenced me to a small fine and an hour in prison and .... well dang I was flagged red for a day. That was the coolest event ever for me in MMO gaming. It was a real world.

Ultima Online took some of the power away from GM's but gave the roleplay event job to other employees. I remember specifically the Dupre roleplay events, the Lord British vs Lord Blackthorne events, and all the Halloween monster invasions and other things. Usually the boss monster was played by an Origin employee. The world occasionally changed and the developers changed things to go along with it. GM's and counselors even presided over player weddings and other events in game.

What is my point? Somwhere along the way we lost the concept of what made an MMO and interactive world worth playing in. GM's are now glorified hall monitors designed to keep us in our class rooms while we have the latest MMO theories shoved down our throats. Independent thought is usually ignored and drown out by a plethora or willing idiots who abhore art, creativity, and a requirement for intellectual thought during a game. Instead we fill games with endless leveling treadmills, static themeparks full of shinies, pointless and repetative battlegrounds. Developers have removed all requirements of challenge, creativities, individualism from games. Everything is predictable and Game Masters are now wholly reviled for their intrusive and yet mostly useless role in MMO's.

Am I simply getting old? When will developers release a game where things are challenging? Where success actually requires a community of players to survive? Why do games that allow a changing world and dynamic environment such as Wurm or Salem fail to attract the financial support to create a truly modern bug free version of a gaming "World" as opposed to the equivilant of a digital B movie?

All I want in the end is companies and players alike to release a game that goes back to the golden age of video gaming. Days when we logged in to play with certain people and participate in this event or that event because it was part of the story. Not to go on Quest A or B to obtain the latest must have item. Where game companies made a concerted effort to change the world in response to our actions or gave the tools for us to do it ourselves. I'll assert that innovative digital world likes Shadowbane, Salem, Wurm, don't fail because players don't want to play them. My assertion is that they fail because big name publishers with the money to make them successful are afraid to take a chance on them. That, and today's players are too busy gobbling up the latest digital treadmill crap, that they don't know what made the first MMO's great to begin with.

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Comments

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,769Member Uncommon

    This is a topic that has been started many times before because there are so many who agree with you. No doubt the easyMMO apologists will be posting soon to tell us how wonderful modern MMO’s are, how they have evolved, how everything that comes from gaming companies is amazing. They sing “la, la, la” as they skip of into their marketing hype wonderland.

    And did I mention how modern MMO’s are “fun”? As long as they are fun that excuses everything. Even if they are not fun for you and the countless others like you. Even if Modern MMO’s struggle to keep subs or cash shops open after two months, that does not matter.

    We have lost an immense amount of gameplay in MMO’s and while some has been added players are right to feel they have been short changed.

  • ReckerRecker Montreal, QCPosts: 161Member
    Originally posted by Ciano

    I'm probably thread number 1 million but I wanted to voice my own thoughts on this matter. I'm about 29. I've played nearly every MMO since Sierra's "The Realm" back in the 90's. I cut my MMO teeth on Ultima Online, Dabbled in Asheron's Call, Shadowbane, EVE, Auto Assault, Meridian 59, Planetside 1 and 2, Star Wars Galaxies, Warhammer,  Darkfall, Pirates of the Burning Sea, and a whole host of other game's I've forgotten over the years.

     

    I've noticed the MMO's came out of the text based genre of Online games called Mudds. They were text only so people relied on innovative ways to create "interactive" worlds and communities. Being a GM meant somthing. He or She was a god in the gaming world. They set the stage for the story, and determined the results of world events and player actions. In Meridian 59, players and GM's sat on a regional counsel of judges that put players on trial for real or imagined crimes. I remember the coolest thing ever was being put on trial for an attempted Pking. I had a GM as the judge, a player and the victim were the prosecution, and a volunteer player. I of course argued innocent and claimed that it was an accident, I was just practicing my sword swing "roleplay of course *gasp* people roleplay?" and accidently hit the other player. Of course the prosecution got theatrical and accused me of being a murderer and a liar. After a bit of back and forth the judge sentenced me to a small fine and an hour in prison and .... well dang I was flagged red for a day. That was the coolest event ever for me in MMO gaming. It was a real world.

    Ultima Online took some of the power away from GM's but gave the roleplay event job to other employees. I remember specifically the Dupre roleplay events, the Lord British vs Lord Blackthorne events, and all the Halloween monster invasions and other things. Usually the boss monster was played by an Origin employee. The world occasionally changed and the developers changed things to go along with it. GM's and counselors even presided over player weddings and other events in game.

    What is my point? Somwhere along the way we lost the concept of what made an MMO and interactive world worth playing in. GM's are now glorified hall monitors designed to keep us in our class rooms while we have the latest MMO theories shoved down our throats. Independent thought is usually ignored and drown out by a plethora or willing idiots who abhore art, creativity, and a requirement for intellectual thought during a game. Instead we fill games with endless leveling treadmills, static themeparks full of shinies, pointless and repetative battlegrounds. Developers have removed all requirements of challenge, creativities, individualism from games. Everything is predictable and Game Masters are now wholly reviled for their intrusive and yet mostly useless role in MMO's.

    Am I simply getting old? When will developers release a game where things are challenging? Where success actually requires a community of players to survive? Why do games that allow a changing world and dynamic environment such as Wurm or Salem fail to attract the financial support to create a truly modern bug free version of a gaming "World" as opposed to the equivilant of a digital B movie?

    All I want in the end is companies and players alike to release a game that goes back to the golden age of video gaming. Days when we logged in to play with certain people and participate in this event or that event because it was part of the story. Not to go on Quest A or B to obtain the latest must have item. Where game companies made a concerted effort to change the world in response to our actions or gave the tools for us to do it ourselves. I'll assert that innovative digital world likes Shadowbane, Salem, Wurm, don't fail because players don't want to play them. My assertion is that they fail because big name publishers with the money to make them successful are afraid to take a chance on them. That, and today's players are too busy gobbling up the latest digital treadmill crap, that they don't know what made the first MMO's great to begin with.

    Thank you for putting most of my thoughts in writing i agree with 99% of every word writen. I seriously appreciate the time and effort it took for you to write this and if only people werent so lazy and would do the same and mail them into companies things might change.

    BTW Google needs to make an MMO they have the money and the balls to do it, just my thoughts

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,940Member Uncommon

    I call it "Lowest Common Denominator Game Design".  Maximize profits by reaching the largest number of people by providing a gameplay experience based on the desire of that group.

     

    To my understanding, these players don't want worlds.  They want interactive entertainment.  That's how they see gaming.

     

    Evolution or decay?  That depends on if you like the direction taken, or not.

     


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member

    Humans are expensive, unreliable and difficult to replicate.

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member

    Issue with this 'golden age of gaming' is that the MMO scene at the time was very niche and was not mainstream.

    If that's what you call 'golden age', then that's your call.

    As someone who loves MMOs and want more people to play it, I disagree and say that's the 'dark age of gaming' where 'MMO player' = 'lived in parents basement' to a lot of people and was shun.

    I ask this question to every OP that posts this kind of stuff; 'what MMO do you sub right now? Are you actually putting your money where your mouth is?'

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Am I simply getting old? When will developers release a game where things are challenging? Where success actually requires a community of players to survive? Why do games that allow a changing world and dynamic environment such as Wurm or Salem fail to attract the financial support to create a truly modern bug free version of a gaming "World" as opposed to the equivilant of a digital B movie?


    Because the developers who are writing those games have only ever written zero or one games to show that they know how to write games. The people with the money aren't going to give untested people millions of dollars to write something better.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • CianoCiano Not telling, HIPosts: 34Member
    Originally posted by jpnz

    Issue with this 'golden age of gaming' is that the MMO scene at the time was very niche and was not mainstream.

    If that's what you call 'golden age', then that's your call.

    As someone who loves MMOs and want more people to play it, I disagree and say that's the 'dark age of gaming' where 'MMO player' = 'lived in parents basement' to a lot of people and was shun.

    I ask this question to every OP that posts this kind of stuff; 'what MMO do you sub right now? Are you actually putting your money where your mouth is?'

    Heh yeah actually I am putting my money where my mouth is. I don't currently sub to any travesty of an MMO that is currently in existance. The last MMO's I put any significant funds into were Wurm Online and Darkfall. Darkfall didn't have immersion but at least it had a lively poliical atmospere.

    Your Dark Age of gaming is a fallacy. It wasn't a matter of being a basement gollum. Computers and MMO's in general were really only accessible to statistically small amounts of people due to their cost. Therefore, only those who were really into them would bother spending the money. In fact, Ultima Online's demographics were mostly teens and young professionals (finanacially independent) with a smattering of adults here and there that got into it.

    Let's compare that to today's demographic of intellectually devoid tweens, F2P kiddies, and a whole generation of FPS addicts? Yeah I think I preferred the Dark Age of gaming as you called it. At least the community was better.

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member
    Originally posted by Ciano
    Originally posted by jpnz

    Issue with this 'golden age of gaming' is that the MMO scene at the time was very niche and was not mainstream.

    If that's what you call 'golden age', then that's your call.

    As someone who loves MMOs and want more people to play it, I disagree and say that's the 'dark age of gaming' where 'MMO player' = 'lived in parents basement' to a lot of people and was shun.

    I ask this question to every OP that posts this kind of stuff; 'what MMO do you sub right now? Are you actually putting your money where your mouth is?'

    Heh yeah actually I am putting my money where my mouth is. I don't currently sub to any travesty of an MMO that is currently in existance. The last MMO's I put any significant funds into were Wurm Online and Darkfall. Darkfall didn't have immersion but at least it had a lively poliical atmospere.

    So you are not helping your cause by not spending money on MMOs that might fit your bill like Darkfall or EVE-Online?

    We have games that do 'world' fairly well, including your beloved old school UO (Emu).

    If I like something I buy it. That's how I tell the people that made it, 'hey I like this, please make more.' Its called capitalism.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member
    Originally posted by Ciano
     

    Your Dark Age of gaming is a fallacy. It wasn't a matter of being a basement gollum. Computers and MMO's in general were really only accessible to statistically small amounts of people due to their cost. Therefore, only those who were really into them would bother spending the money. In fact, Ultima Online's demographics were mostly teens and young professionals (finanacially independent) with a smattering of adults here and there that got into it.

    Let's compare that to today's demographic of intellectually devoid tweens, F2P kiddies, and a whole generation of FPS addicts? Yeah I think I preferred the Dark Age of gaming as you called it. At least the community was better.

    Now we have MMOs being played by movie stars, doctors, lawyers, politicians, etc etc.

    Was the community better? Maybe for you personally.

    For me, this current MMO community is miles better. YMMV.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • tuppe99tuppe99 Dublin, INPosts: 276Member Uncommon

    I know these games are not sandboxes, but why don't people (like myself) that are tired of games like WoW, not try VG, EQ2 or AC2?

    Do those games not have much more depth than the games we complain about?

  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member
    Originally posted by tuppe99

    I know these games are not sandboxes, but why don't people (like myself) that are tired of games like WoW, not try VG, EQ2 or AC2?

    Do those games not have much more depth than the games we complain about?

    This goes to the crux of the matter.

    As long as the market says 'make more WoW clones!',  developers will follow that.

    Free-market is working as intended.

     

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,769Member Uncommon

    But there is a strong element of consuming what you are given. If you have only played MMO's for the last three years you may not even know what an open world is. They will not know what RP tools are or a player driven economy.

    Ignorance is bliss in the themepark garden of Eden.

  • TjedTjed Baltimore, MDPosts: 162Member
    Originally posted by tuppe99

    I know these games are not sandboxes, but why don't people (like myself) that are tired of games like WoW, not try VG, EQ2 or AC2?

    Do those games not have much more depth than the games we complain about?

    This is a good point.  I am playing Vanguard right now.  I still think it's the best game available.  I would love Vanguard with modern graphics and maybe smoother combat, but that's being picky.  It's a great game.  

    I'm playing GW2 right now as well, and it is fun.  I'm of the opinion that both types of games can exist in the market today.  

     

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Yeah but to be fair, gw2 isn't as instance instance instance as your wow clone type games, it has shown a return to outdoor content.
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,680Member Uncommon

     

     

     

    "...today's players are too busy gobbling up the latest digital treadmill crap, that they don't know what made the first MMO's great to begin with."

     

    "No doubt the easyMMO apologists will be posting soon to tell us how wonderful modern MMO’s are, how they have evolved, how everything that comes from gaming companies is amazing. They sing “la, la, la” as they skip of into their marketing hype wonderland."

     

    "...today's demographic of intellectually devoid tweens, F2P kiddies, and a whole generation of FPS addicts? Yeah I think I preferred the Dark Age of gaming as you called it. At least the community was better."

     

    "I call it "Lowest Common Denominator Game Design"."

     

    "Ignorance is bliss in the themepark garden of Eden."

     

     

     

    None of you realize how you sound right now?  Really?

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • xeniarxeniar Posts: 805Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

     

     

     

    "...today's players are too busy gobbling up the latest digital treadmill crap, that they don't know what made the first MMO's great to begin with."

     

    "No doubt the easyMMO apologists will be posting soon to tell us how wonderful modern MMO’s are, how they have evolved, how everything that comes from gaming companies is amazing. They sing “la, la, la” as they skip of into their marketing hype wonderland."

     

    "...today's demographic of intellectually devoid tweens, F2P kiddies, and a whole generation of FPS addicts? Yeah I think I preferred the Dark Age of gaming as you called it. At least the community was better."

     

    "I call it "Lowest Common Denominator Game Design"."

     

    "Ignorance is bliss in the themepark garden of Eden."

     

     

     

    None of you realize how you sound right now?  Really?

    Loktofeit. i tought you where on the same page. regardless of how they are sounding.

     

    @jpnz The thing why I and possible WE dont play AC2, EQ2 and vanguard is well, i tried vangaurd and i could not live with the combat (oh my god combat was even better before it) and graphics. Im playing things like halo 4 and assasins creed 3 and if you go back to vangaurd those graphics just annoy the crap out of me.

    EQ2 i want to play the grapichs are fine there imo, but playing an MMO you want to actually meet people if those starter areas are all empty, your not giving the game a fair shot it deserves. Id love a buddy to play it with.

    Theres enoug people who feel like this obviously, what we require is a next gen (can be soft graphics like WoW asswell) MMORPG, Persistant world minimalizing instancing, put politics in there and a reason to communicate and that game will be the greatest thing what ever happened to you. You might point to Darkfall right now but not evreyone likes FFA full loot PvP it would be more populair if we did.

  • delete5230delete5230 Posts: 2,966Member Uncommon

    Only older mmos had worlds.  Now we have what I call obnoxious zones with too much going on in a small area.  I'm playing Vanilla WoW right now and loving it ( don't ask me how because mmorpg will give me a ban ). The world is spread out.  Some times I may have to run or fly for 10 min to get their but it's all about the experience and the immersion in a simulated world.

    Some would call this old school and outdated....I say my butt hole....The only difference is now we have the obnoxious part, fast gimmicks.

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,008Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jpnz

    Issue with this 'golden age of gaming' is that the MMO scene at the time was very niche and was not mainstream.

    If that's what you call 'golden age', then that's your call.

    As someone who loves MMOs and want more people to play it, I disagree and say that's the 'dark age of gaming' where 'MMO player' = 'lived in parents basement' to a lot of people and was shun.

    I ask this question to every OP that posts this kind of stuff; 'what MMO do you sub right now? Are you actually putting your money where your mouth is?'

    EVE, 3 subs that I actually pay cash money for, no Plex trading involved.

    I find that its one of the last of the open world (universe) MMORPG's as I've come to accept the niche I occupy is apparently too small for modern day AAA developers to show  much interest in.

    CCP gets maligned for much, and some of the criticism of EVE and the company is well deserved, but they do deserve kudos for remaining largely true to the vision that's driven the title for so long.

    I may never unsub from EVE ever again.

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,680Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by xeniar
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    "...today's players are too busy gobbling up the latest digital treadmill crap, that they don't know what made the first MMO's great to begin with."

    "No doubt the easyMMO apologists will be posting soon to tell us how wonderful modern MMO’s are, how they have evolved, how everything that comes from gaming companies is amazing. They sing “la, la, la” as they skip of into their marketing hype wonderland."

    "...today's demographic of intellectually devoid tweens, F2P kiddies, and a whole generation of FPS addicts? Yeah I think I preferred the Dark Age of gaming as you called it. At least the community was better."

    "I call it "Lowest Common Denominator Game Design"."

    "Ignorance is bliss in the themepark garden of Eden."

    None of you realize how you sound right now?  Really?

    Loktofeit. i tought you where on the same page. regardless of how they are sounding.

    I'm a massive fan of community-driven sandbox-focused MMOs, but I'm not about to deem my preference correct or better than someone else's, let alone deride them for their entertainment preference.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • CianoCiano Not telling, HIPosts: 34Member
    Originally posted by jpnz
    Originally posted by Ciano
    Originally posted by jpnz

    Issue with this 'golden age of gaming' is that the MMO scene at the time was very niche and was not mainstream.

    If that's what you call 'golden age', then that's your call.

    As someone who loves MMOs and want more people to play it, I disagree and say that's the 'dark age of gaming' where 'MMO player' = 'lived in parents basement' to a lot of people and was shun.

    I ask this question to every OP that posts this kind of stuff; 'what MMO do you sub right now? Are you actually putting your money where your mouth is?'

    Heh yeah actually I am putting my money where my mouth is. I don't currently sub to any travesty of an MMO that is currently in existance. The last MMO's I put any significant funds into were Wurm Online and Darkfall. Darkfall didn't have immersion but at least it had a lively poliical atmospere.

    So you are not helping your cause by not spending money on MMOs that might fit your bill like Darkfall or EVE-Online?

    We have games that do 'world' fairly well, including your beloved old school UO (Emu).

    If I like something I buy it. That's how I tell the people that made it, 'hey I like this, please make more.' Its called capitalism.

    Now we have MMOs being played by movie stars, doctors, lawyers, politicians, etc etc.

    Was the community better? Maybe for you personally.

    For me, this current MMO community is miles better. YMMV.

    I'm not sure if you've been paying attention but Darkfall is shut down and DF Unholy wars isn't ready yet. There goes that theory. Not to mention I've finished my time in EvE. Good game, wasn't for me anymore. 3 Years of subscription fees is enough support I think.

    I've donated funds to independent games and spent money on games like Wurm just to support them. I've donated countless hours conducting developer level game testing and gotten my name in the credits of Dawn of Fantasy.

    I've more than put my money where my mouth is. I support games that are worth supporting or seem innovative. I bought Mount and Blade when it was a late stage Alpha, before most people even know what it was.

    I refuse to give any more money to Blizzard entertainment. They havn't innovated anything in a long time. Ditto the Command and Conquer franchise that EA bought up.

    I had high hopes for Fallout Online before Bethesda gave Interplay the good old dirt nap recently.

     

    You show me an innovative game that might actually be a digital game world instead of a theme park then I will happily throw my money behind it. Right now, that is increasingly less common.

     

    As for the MMO community being better? I don't care what their jobs are. If they are part of the instant gratification crowd instead of those of us who want innovative and challenging game play, I have no use for them.

  • ThaneThane berlinPosts: 2,232Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Thane

    there is one simple reason the mmos in the "good ol' days" have been better.

     

    we played what they gave us.

    we weren't like "uuuh i want an mmo where i can play this and that with having those but not these. also i want ..."

    that's what we wrote on our "whishlist" for santa, back in the REALY old days.

     

    when we got our first mmo's, we were happy we had em. we didn't dare to question them :)

     

    daoc for example: 

     

    * invisible walls

    * instanced pvp (with a 15 mins queue on death)

    * totaly unbalanced classes *hi there mr infi plz dont kill meeeeee!*

    * it took ages to rest after you spend your mana

    * you lost exp on death and lost whole lvls (reaching the higher end) when getting angry at certain mobs again

    * bots everywhere! (tho they were buff bots those days, not farmbots hehe)

     

    it wasn't all shiney back then :)

    maybe it's just time to enjoy gaming again and stop doing it so fookin serious :)

     

     

    play games as long they are fun and when they are not, wait until they go f2p and check in again or not ^^

     

     

    seriously, i just quoted myself now, since you guys repeat yourselves again and again and won't stop doing new posts for it.

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • DancingQueenDancingQueen LA, CAPosts: 201Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by xeniar
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    "...today's players are too busy gobbling up the latest digital treadmill crap, that they don't know what made the first MMO's great to begin with."

    "No doubt the easyMMO apologists will be posting soon to tell us how wonderful modern MMO’s are, how they have evolved, how everything that comes from gaming companies is amazing. They sing “la, la, la” as they skip of into their marketing hype wonderland."

    "...today's demographic of intellectually devoid tweens, F2P kiddies, and a whole generation of FPS addicts? Yeah I think I preferred the Dark Age of gaming as you called it. At least the community was better."

    "I call it "Lowest Common Denominator Game Design"."

    "Ignorance is bliss in the themepark garden of Eden."

    None of you realize how you sound right now?  Really?

    Loktofeit. i tought you where on the same page. regardless of how they are sounding.

    I'm a massive fan of community-driven sandbox-focused MMOs, but I'm not about to deem my preference correct or better than someone else's, let alone deride them for their entertainment preference.

     

    But you are better and more correct than someone else.

  • OnomasOnomas Rock Hill, SCPosts: 1,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jpnz
    Originally posted by Ciano
     

    Your Dark Age of gaming is a fallacy. It wasn't a matter of being a basement gollum. Computers and MMO's in general were really only accessible to statistically small amounts of people due to their cost. Therefore, only those who were really into them would bother spending the money. In fact, Ultima Online's demographics were mostly teens and young professionals (finanacially independent) with a smattering of adults here and there that got into it.

    Let's compare that to today's demographic of intellectually devoid tweens, F2P kiddies, and a whole generation of FPS addicts? Yeah I think I preferred the Dark Age of gaming as you called it. At least the community was better.

    Now we have MMOs being played by movie stars, doctors, lawyers, politicians, etc etc.

    Was the community better? Maybe for you personally.

    For me, this current MMO community is miles better. YMMV.

    Not a huge step up... who do you see in the news mostly for all kinds of issues and mental problems...........

    movie stars, sports players, few doctors, a lot of politicians, etc.........

    Societies elite are often the worst people.

  • SlampigSlampig Chantilly, VAPosts: 2,376Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ciano

    I'm probably thread number 1 million but I wanted to voice my own thoughts on this matter. I'm about 29. I've played nearly every MMO since Sierra's "The Realm" back in the 90's. I cut my MMO teeth on Ultima Online, Dabbled in Asheron's Call, Shadowbane, EVE, Auto Assault, Meridian 59, Planetside 1 and 2, Star Wars Galaxies, Warhammer,  Darkfall, Pirates of the Burning Sea, and a whole host of other game's I've forgotten over the years.

     

    I've noticed the MMO's came out of the text based genre of Online games called Mudds. They were text only so people relied on innovative ways to create "interactive" worlds and communities. Being a GM meant somthing. He or She was a god in the gaming world. They set the stage for the story, and determined the results of world events and player actions. In Meridian 59, players and GM's sat on a regional counsel of judges that put players on trial for real or imagined crimes. I remember the coolest thing ever was being put on trial for an attempted Pking. I had a GM as the judge, a player and the victim were the prosecution, and a volunteer player. I of course argued innocent and claimed that it was an accident, I was just practicing my sword swing "roleplay of course *gasp* people roleplay?" and accidently hit the other player. Of course the prosecution got theatrical and accused me of being a murderer and a liar. After a bit of back and forth the judge sentenced me to a small fine and an hour in prison and .... well dang I was flagged red for a day. That was the coolest event ever for me in MMO gaming. It was a real world.

    Ultima Online took some of the power away from GM's but gave the roleplay event job to other employees. I remember specifically the Dupre roleplay events, the Lord British vs Lord Blackthorne events, and all the Halloween monster invasions and other things. Usually the boss monster was played by an Origin employee. The world occasionally changed and the developers changed things to go along with it. GM's and counselors even presided over player weddings and other events in game.

    What is my point? Somwhere along the way we lost the concept of what made an MMO and interactive world worth playing in. GM's are now glorified hall monitors designed to keep us in our class rooms while we have the latest MMO theories shoved down our throats. Independent thought is usually ignored and drown out by a plethora or willing idiots who abhore art, creativity, and a requirement for intellectual thought during a game. Instead we fill games with endless leveling treadmills, static themeparks full of shinies, pointless and repetative battlegrounds. Developers have removed all requirements of challenge, creativities, individualism from games. Everything is predictable and Game Masters are now wholly reviled for their intrusive and yet mostly useless role in MMO's.

    Am I simply getting old? When will developers release a game where things are challenging? Where success actually requires a community of players to survive? Why do games that allow a changing world and dynamic environment such as Wurm or Salem fail to attract the financial support to create a truly modern bug free version of a gaming "World" as opposed to the equivilant of a digital B movie?

    All I want in the end is companies and players alike to release a game that goes back to the golden age of video gaming. Days when we logged in to play with certain people and participate in this event or that event because it was part of the story. Not to go on Quest A or B to obtain the latest must have item. Where game companies made a concerted effort to change the world in response to our actions or gave the tools for us to do it ourselves. I'll assert that innovative digital world likes Shadowbane, Salem, Wurm, don't fail because players don't want to play them. My assertion is that they fail because big name publishers with the money to make them successful are afraid to take a chance on them. That, and today's players are too busy gobbling up the latest digital treadmill crap, that they don't know what made the first MMO's great to begin with.

    Was a pretty good post until the enire, "Look at me, I am so much smarter than the average gamer" section...

    That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!

  • CuathonCuathon University City, NYPosts: 2,211Member

    This may come as a shock to you but some of us are intellectually more capable than others. It doesn't mean we are more worthwhile as human beings, it just means what it says.

    Many games that are popular to some people are boring to me. Just like when you do something with a guide and instantly know the best options you lose out on the rest of the content. Being smarter is like having a guide to the better options. It shortens the life of the content for you.

    Depending on how much the content is based on grind, this can add years to the difference in how long the game is fun. Similarly if you play more it gets old faster and if you played certain kinds of games earlier than others you are bored while they are still excited.

    Less intelligent people are just as guilty of attacking others for their enjoyment in a game that is played out for them. Its just that smarter people have had more games become old hat and there are less games that can stimulate them. And less intelligent people also trash games desgined for smarter people. Too hard, difficulty cliff, stupid, blah blah blah.

    The constant barrage of people blaming you for being harder to stimulate even though you were born that way and have no control over it doesn't make the conversation any more civil. You guys know who you are.

    Some people have a harder time finding stimulating games and when you see the massive ad campaigns for games that are just rehashes of games you are already tired of it gets upsetting.

    And also more advanced games have smaller audiences which means less marketing which means harder to find them even if there are some out there. Plus all the people you know are excited about such and such game and since you can't play that kind of game anymore you get flamed and insulted constantly for not being interested in those games. You even get excluded from things for that reason.

    The reason nerds are famous for being basement dwellers is that the more you diverge from the norm the more you lack access to peers to socialize with. Similarly depictions in popular media drive behavior which means that nerds are essentially trained by society to be basement dwellers and losers and they believe that is their only possible option. Stereotypes affects everyone equally. Nerds are legislated against as much as a group like many other minorities, besides no child left behind of course, but they still constitute a minority which is oppressed by society.

    Maybe Loktofeit lucked out and hasn't internalized the same anger and frustration that many other intelligent people have, but that doesn't excuse his hypocritical behavior where he says he isn't going to say he is better than other people, because he is better than other people.

    I live in an area where its quite easy to observe and calculate the life paths of various nerds, the nerds who are good people by Loktofeits standards tend to luck into social groups based on the various clumps of nerds in the area. Because access to peers, and I don't mean by age, is a pirmary factor in societally approved socialization.

     

    Its easy for the majority group, in this case people who are the designated target audience of the AAA games industry to ignore various important factors and oppress minority groups since they aren't affected by the pressure and thus have little incentive to figure out why some people feel the way they feel.

    That one "angry, elitist" person who does a little bit of trolling as a way to express frustration has no power over you. However when you as a community hit back that has real dangerous power over that "troll" that you are attacking socially.

    If you don't like an individual you can just ignore them, they don't have the same option to ignore you.

    A thread about how the game industry has fallen into the dark ages and is ruled by the lowest common denominator is totally harmless. A thread "counter trolling", or whatever word the kids use these days, that person or group of people is unwarranted and unnecessary. Which of the people in this scenario are the bad guys? Its not the elitist. Because actions are judged by effects and not intent.

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