I voted both...both sides are equally at fault. The game companies are trying to 1) give us what we want and 2) make a little coin on the side so they can eat and rent a prostitute but ask any 10 gamers what sort of game they want..and you'll get 50 different awnsers
No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin
Just think of this statement, "Not everyone likes PvP". Just the response you would get to that one question is as good an indicator of what "we" might think. If you can't figure that out, there is no way you can blame anyone. Perhaps the closest you could come is to blame "half and half". Since we the customer will never agree upon what we like, the other half must determine what we will settle for. That breeds medicore games.....in part. If the developers would stop trying to be a clone of what they precieve we want, if they would innovate more and take risk, maybe then we would see MMO's we really want to play and stay with. Also, if they would stop using "free to play" to falsely claim their game is "free" then maybe some of us could trust them more.
I think it's largely just a matter of how you choose to view EvilCorp.
Pretty simple explanation to accept that they're the Source of All Evil...and lots of opportunities to add your 'me too', as someone makes a new post with that same basic theory about once an hour.
Same simplistic answer applied to every gaming company since the late 70s? Eh, it's terribly threadbare by now.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Who is "Us?" The sandboxers? The themeparkers? The hybriders? The crafters? The PvPers? The PvEers? The casuals? The hardcores? The inbetweeners? The FPSers? The RPGers? The RTSers? The questers? The grinders? The old timers? The newcomers? The real players? The console players? The vast worlders? The lobby based instancers?
Who is "Us?"
Do you work for a gaming company? Are you an mmorpg developer? Do you fund and produce Mmorpg's?
I'm not sure who it is but all I know is I enjoy (and still play) alot of the older MMOs and cant stand any of the newer ones the last couple of years.....The games try too hard now to entertain us instead of making games......Its reaching a point where its more like watching a vido than playing a game with all the voice acting and cutscenes in some of these games.
They made games. Some people like the games and have fun .. they become paying customers. You don't. You can vote with your dollars. That is basically it.
If they don't want your dollar, and going after some other consumer groups, there is no one to "blame". It is a free market. They owe you nothing and you owe them nothing.
How do you "vote with your dollars" if the game is f2p but still a pile of garbage?
This isn't about the money because I'm sure many think like me and would gladly pay a sub fee for a solid and long lasting game playing experience. This is about the industry. We have 2 sides the games and the gaming companies both trying to make the other seem like it's the other causing the problems. The players are bashing the products and the companies are saying don't listen to the supposed vocal minority.
Vote with my feet. I am doing that already.
To me, it is not about the industry. It is about having fun. I don't play games for any other reasons.
Whether a company listen or not .. does not concern me. If they produce a good game (that i like), i wouldn't care less if it is because the producer is a genius, or they text-mine 10000 forums to learn about what people want.
Explain the "vote with my feet" bit because it doesn't make sense to me. You're not walking to the store to buy the game because its free. That might have made sense in your head when you typed it but it's very confusing.
"vote with my feet" is an expression. It means if i don't like it .. i go somewhere else. In the f2p context, if i don't like the game, i go play another.
It's the players, plain and simple. Players don't know what they want, well most of them. They ask for something, the companies gives it to them, what does the players do? They throw a giant fit and demand it be changed. Champions Online, early headstart people were shouting how easy it was, something had better change, etc. Company listened and made it just a tiny bit harder... players throw a big hissy fit "WHAT???? This is too hard!!!! You had better change it back to how it was or I'm quitting!!!!!!!!!!!"
Seen this in many mmo's, they want something added, changed or removed. Once it happens they want the opposite. One day the game is the best of the best, tomorrow they claim it sucks and is the worst thing ever.
Game comes out, a bit like WoW they get pissed "We don't want another WoW!!! We want something totally different!!!!"
Game comes out, could be NOTHING like WoW "It's not WoW enough! Why did you change how combat was done? Why did you change questing?" etc, etc
Then you have the people no matter how different a game is "It's just another stupid WoW clone, another ripoff!!!" And it could look, play, etc nothing like WoW.
The companies aren't perfect but you cannot expect them to know what gamers 100% want when most don't seem to know it themselvse.
Who is "Us?" The sandboxers? The themeparkers? The hybriders? The crafters? The PvPers? The PvEers? The casuals? The hardcores? The inbetweeners? The FPSers? The RPGers? The RTSers? The questers? The grinders? The old timers? The newcomers? The real players? The console players? The vast worlders? The lobby based instancers?
Who is "Us?"
Do you work for a gaming company? Are you an mmorpg developer? Do you fund and produce Mmorpg's?
If so you are " them"
If not you are part of the rest of us.
And of course no game developer/producer/promoter/publisher ever playes games. Unthinkable.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Who is "Us?" The sandboxers? The themeparkers? The hybriders? The crafters? The PvPers? The PvEers? The casuals? The hardcores? The inbetweeners? The FPSers? The RPGers? The RTSers? The questers? The grinders? The old timers? The newcomers? The real players? The console players? The vast worlders? The lobby based instancers?
Who is "Us?"
Do you work for a gaming company? Are you an mmorpg developer? Do you fund and produce Mmorpg's?
If so you are " them"
If not you are part of the rest of us.
And of course no game developer/producer/promoter/publisher ever playes games. Unthinkable.
The difference is they have a vested interest in the success of the game.
Let me ask you this, if ESO launches next year you decide to buy it and it bombs has that effected your future?
Now if you are a developer/producer/promoter/publisher for ESO and it bombs the result would be vastly different.
Inconceivable for you to distinguish apparently. I hope my explanation helped you understand.
I want what doesn't exist, and there's not enough people who want what I do to ever have a chance of getting it.
If I can ever get a solid grip on game design (not something I find easy to achieve) I hope to build it myself.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
We play a multitude of MMO's and want the best pieces (personal preference) of all of them n one game. Not very reasonable or realistic in software development.
80/20 rule give the customer 80% of what they want. You shoot any higher than that and you are likely to alienate more people if you are ever able to even accomplish it successfully.
I mean WOW is still killing it but all you ever read is bitching and complaining...except from Blizzard. Commercial success is not dependent on the 20% of us that would like everything in one game and they are in fact in it to make money not cater to me (..or you)
They made games. Some people like the games and have fun .. they become paying customers. You don't. You can vote with your dollars. That is basically it.
If they don't want your dollar, and going after some other consumer groups, there is no one to "blame". It is a free market. They owe you nothing and you owe them nothing.
How do you "vote with your dollars" if the game is f2p but still a pile of garbage?
Because without the free players, the paying ones don't stick around.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Who is "Us?" The sandboxers? The themeparkers? The hybriders? The crafters? The PvPers? The PvEers? The casuals? The hardcores? The inbetweeners? The FPSers? The RPGers? The RTSers? The questers? The grinders? The old timers? The newcomers? The real players? The console players? The vast worlders? The lobby based instancers?
Who is "Us?"
Do you work for a gaming company? Are you an mmorpg developer? Do you fund and produce Mmorpg's?
If so you are " them"
If not you are part of the rest of us.
It's a shame you feel that way, as most MMO devs are also avid gamers.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
They made games. Some people like the games and have fun .. they become paying customers. You don't. You can vote with your dollars. That is basically it.
If they don't want your dollar, and going after some other consumer groups, there is no one to "blame". It is a free market. They owe you nothing and you owe them nothing.
How do you "vote with your dollars" if the game is f2p but still a pile of garbage?
Because without the free players, the paying ones don't stick around.
F2P browsers (cant call them customers if they never pay) add nothing to a community. What do free players add to a game? People asking questions in chat? Extra bodies wandering around in the shell of a game that died after trying to be P2P?
To paraphrase Ronald Reagan, "I didn't leave the mmorpg genre, the genre left me".
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
This is a useless poll. Of course people don't want to fault themselves.
*sarcasm on* I can't be the problem with my arrogant assumptions and ludicrous attitudes. I can't be bothered with the game if it doesn't give me exactly what I WAHH-NT. After all, I have my brain plugged in directly to the developers computers, so they should be able to read my mind and if I complain loud enough, it is not that I am a spoiled brat, it is just that my life revolves around games - all I live for. *sarcasm off*
No, it is totally the companies fault. *rolls eyes*
Companies are putting out pure garbage for games the past few years. I refuse to pay for a crappy game, however a lot of folks are and the devs get the idea its ok.
Companies are putting out pure garbage for games the past few years. I refuse to pay for a crappy game, however a lot of folks are and the devs get the idea its ok.
May be that is because it is not crappy to them? Why would anyone pays and play a game that they consider crappy?
May be you don't understand what you want is not what everyone else wants.
They made games. Some people like the games and have fun .. they become paying customers. You don't. You can vote with your dollars. That is basically it.
If they don't want your dollar, and going after some other consumer groups, there is no one to "blame". It is a free market. They owe you nothing and you owe them nothing.
How do you "vote with your dollars" if the game is f2p but still a pile of garbage?
Because without the free players, the paying ones don't stick around.
F2P browsers (cant call them customers if they never pay) add nothing to a community. What do free players add to a game? People asking questions in chat? Extra bodies wandering around in the shell of a game that died after trying to be P2P?
In a F2P MMO, the free players are often as important as the paying ones. The model is managed very differently from a subscription game. While there may very well be back of the queue prioritizing sometimes, the free player is understood to be a very valuable user of the service.
Look at the home page for any F2P game and you will see there are constant events, festivals and special weekends. When you hop in game, you will often see there are GMs and staffers that are hanging out in channel, chatting with the players. The towns or NPCs are usually redecorated for holidays and events. This content is just as much for the free player as the paying player. The reason being is that the free players are, to a certain degree, content for paying players.
Players being content for other players is absolutely true of subscription MMOs, as well. Veteran players will leave a server that feels ‘dead’. When new players log into a ‘dead’ server, they aren’t too likely to stick around. The vanity players need people to show their stuff off to, the entertainers need people to entertain, the raiders and grinders need people to group with, and the socialisers need people to chat with.
In the F2P model, you already know that you’re only getting cash from a small percentage, so it’s not like you are putting much effort into getting cash from the rest – they had no intention of spending anything to begin with, so you focus your energies primarily on those who will. You concentrate your efforts in two areas
providing engaging content to bring in as many free players as you can
providing desirable items in the mall for the players looking to invest extra in their hobby/entertainment
The vanity case isn’t going to buy new bling if there’s no one to show it off to. The raider/grinder isn’t going to buy the xp boosts if he doesn’t have players to group with or compete against. The socialiser isn’t going to run his tavern or buy new toys if he’s logging in and just playing alone.
Without the free players, the paying ones quickly leave.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
It's both. Companies try to make games for what they think are the majority of players. They look at the most popular past games, MMOs and other sources to find out how to make their game sell better. My biggest problem with most games these days is how short they are. I still think a lot of the stories are excellent (main point for my gaming is story) but I hate that it is over in 3-5 hours. Also alot of games have little to no replay value. I think companies are doing this to appease the casual gamers, which that market is getting bigger and bigger. I still think most games that I get are worth the $50-60 I spend on them, but as far as MMOs go, for me it's just one disappointment after another. It's either too fast leveling, insane cash shops, unfinished products, or unpolished products.
Comments
No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin
Just think of this statement, "Not everyone likes PvP". Just the response you would get to that one question is as good an indicator of what "we" might think. If you can't figure that out, there is no way you can blame anyone. Perhaps the closest you could come is to blame "half and half". Since we the customer will never agree upon what we like, the other half must determine what we will settle for. That breeds medicore games.....in part. If the developers would stop trying to be a clone of what they precieve we want, if they would innovate more and take risk, maybe then we would see MMO's we really want to play and stay with. Also, if they would stop using "free to play" to falsely claim their game is "free" then maybe some of us could trust them more.
Let's party like it is 1863!
I think it's largely just a matter of how you choose to view EvilCorp.
Pretty simple explanation to accept that they're the Source of All Evil...and lots of opportunities to add your 'me too', as someone makes a new post with that same basic theory about once an hour.
Same simplistic answer applied to every gaming company since the late 70s? Eh, it's terribly threadbare by now.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Do you work for a gaming company? Are you an mmorpg developer? Do you fund and produce Mmorpg's?
If so you are " them"
If not you are part of the rest of us.
Express your opinion
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/371172/Poll-Most-hated-MMORPG.html
"vote with my feet" is an expression. It means if i don't like it .. i go somewhere else. In the f2p context, if i don't like the game, i go play another.
It's the players, plain and simple. Players don't know what they want, well most of them. They ask for something, the companies gives it to them, what does the players do? They throw a giant fit and demand it be changed. Champions Online, early headstart people were shouting how easy it was, something had better change, etc. Company listened and made it just a tiny bit harder... players throw a big hissy fit "WHAT???? This is too hard!!!! You had better change it back to how it was or I'm quitting!!!!!!!!!!!"
Seen this in many mmo's, they want something added, changed or removed. Once it happens they want the opposite. One day the game is the best of the best, tomorrow they claim it sucks and is the worst thing ever.
Game comes out, a bit like WoW they get pissed "We don't want another WoW!!! We want something totally different!!!!"
Game comes out, could be NOTHING like WoW "It's not WoW enough! Why did you change how combat was done? Why did you change questing?" etc, etc
Then you have the people no matter how different a game is "It's just another stupid WoW clone, another ripoff!!!" And it could look, play, etc nothing like WoW.
The companies aren't perfect but you cannot expect them to know what gamers 100% want when most don't seem to know it themselvse.
And of course no game developer/producer/promoter/publisher ever playes games. Unthinkable.
The difference is they have a vested interest in the success of the game.
Let me ask you this, if ESO launches next year you decide to buy it and it bombs has that effected your future?
Now if you are a developer/producer/promoter/publisher for ESO and it bombs the result would be vastly different.
Inconceivable for you to distinguish apparently. I hope my explanation helped you understand.
Express your opinion
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/371172/Poll-Most-hated-MMORPG.html
Agreed. Companies wouldn't keep releasing crap if no one was buying it! We can only blame ourselves for falling for the hype and paying into it.
My problem is neither us or them, it's me.
I want what doesn't exist, and there's not enough people who want what I do to ever have a chance of getting it.
If I can ever get a solid grip on game design (not something I find easy to achieve) I hope to build it myself.
That sounds like a lot of work jsut to play a game.
May be you should just try other entertainment. Do you have movies you enjoy?
Sounds like he needs someone to introduce him to minecraft
Express your opinion
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/371172/Poll-Most-hated-MMORPG.html
My opinion:
Mostly us.
We play a multitude of MMO's and want the best pieces (personal preference) of all of them n one game. Not very reasonable or realistic in software development.
80/20 rule give the customer 80% of what they want. You shoot any higher than that and you are likely to alienate more people if you are ever able to even accomplish it successfully.
I mean WOW is still killing it but all you ever read is bitching and complaining...except from Blizzard. Commercial success is not dependent on the 20% of us that would like everything in one game and they are in fact in it to make money not cater to me (..or you)
Because without the free players, the paying ones don't stick around.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
It's a shame you feel that way, as most MMO devs are also avid gamers.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
F2P browsers (cant call them customers if they never pay) add nothing to a community. What do free players add to a game? People asking questions in chat? Extra bodies wandering around in the shell of a game that died after trying to be P2P?
To paraphrase Ronald Reagan, "I didn't leave the mmorpg genre, the genre left me".
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
This is a useless poll. Of course people don't want to fault themselves.
*sarcasm on* I can't be the problem with my arrogant assumptions and ludicrous attitudes. I can't be bothered with the game if it doesn't give me exactly what I WAHH-NT. After all, I have my brain plugged in directly to the developers computers, so they should be able to read my mind and if I complain loud enough, it is not that I am a spoiled brat, it is just that my life revolves around games - all I live for. *sarcasm off*
No, it is totally the companies fault. *rolls eyes*
Companies are putting out pure garbage for games the past few years. I refuse to pay for a crappy game, however a lot of folks are and the devs get the idea its ok.
May be that is because it is not crappy to them? Why would anyone pays and play a game that they consider crappy?
May be you don't understand what you want is not what everyone else wants.
Here's how F2P works:
In a F2P MMO, the free players are often as important as the paying ones. The model is managed very differently from a subscription game. While there may very well be back of the queue prioritizing sometimes, the free player is understood to be a very valuable user of the service.
Look at the home page for any F2P game and you will see there are constant events, festivals and special weekends. When you hop in game, you will often see there are GMs and staffers that are hanging out in channel, chatting with the players. The towns or NPCs are usually redecorated for holidays and events. This content is just as much for the free player as the paying player. The reason being is that the free players are, to a certain degree, content for paying players.
Players being content for other players is absolutely true of subscription MMOs, as well. Veteran players will leave a server that feels ‘dead’. When new players log into a ‘dead’ server, they aren’t too likely to stick around. The vanity players need people to show their stuff off to, the entertainers need people to entertain, the raiders and grinders need people to group with, and the socialisers need people to chat with.
In the F2P model, you already know that you’re only getting cash from a small percentage, so it’s not like you are putting much effort into getting cash from the rest – they had no intention of spending anything to begin with, so you focus your energies primarily on those who will. You concentrate your efforts in two areas
The vanity case isn’t going to buy new bling if there’s no one to show it off to.
The raider/grinder isn’t going to buy the xp boosts if he doesn’t have players to group with or compete against. The socialiser isn’t going to run his tavern or buy new toys if he’s logging in and just playing alone.
Without the free players, the paying ones quickly leave.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre