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Is The West Getting Beat By The East?

RazeeksterRazeekster Solon, MEPosts: 2,201Member Uncommon

ArcheAge is the first sandbox+themepark mixed game coming out soon in Korea. Yes there have been some sandbox games here in the West, but the quality of them has been piss poor. That's one thing that I noticed in general. Graphically speaking the East has us beat. Their games are far superior in the graphics department and I don't understand why. I believe that the West has the cabalities to be right on par with them in the graphics department.

 

It seems like the Eastern MMO industry is more accepting to funding AAA sandbox MMOs more so than the West now because another one is also being made in China called Project S. 

 

My whole focus is not meant to be on sandboxes, so you need to think that is what I'm trying to get at. I'm just noticing how the East is now developing less and less of what the West considers grindy games and going for more quality ones. I mean look at B&S and Age of Wushu. Those are also both two impressive games, with Age of Wushu introducing features that I don't think I've even heard of in other asian martial arts MMOs.

 

What does the West have going for it in 2013... The Elder Scrolls Online? No offense but I don't believe that MMO will be as successful as a lot of people seem to think. People seem to forget that most of the time when popular IPs get turned into MMOs they don't do well a lot of times (with the exception of LotRO maybe). Not only that but TESO isn't even adding the combat which it's famous for into the MMO version and I can't see it being wildly popular simply based on the lore.

 

The other things that the West have going for it are mostly unfinished projects backed up by Kickstarter, which until I see come to fruition I won't be putting much stock into.

 

What do you guys think? Is the East surpassing the West when it comes to the quality of MMOs? I myself am seeing less and less of asian grinders and more and more quality looking games coming from the East (the grinders I do see coming to the West from the East have already been in the East for 4+ years and so I don't count those).

Smile

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Comments

  • Abuz0rAbuz0r Lexington, KYPosts: 354Member Uncommon

    Of course, we are the most lazy soceity on earth always waiting on someone else to do something that we're too lazy to do.

    Oh geez don't start me on this rant.  I am 27 and everyone of my generation and younger thinks they were born with the promise of being succesful in life and not having to do anything to earn it.

    Even Mr. OP says he won't be putting anything into kickstarter until he sees it come to fruition.  Let's dissect that phrase.  "I won't help other people make things I want, instead I will wait until after someone else helps them to make the things I want, then maybe I will help them."

    Sorry for picking on the OP, the OP has a valid point in the topic, the East is ambitious, they know what they want and they're willing to work hard to make what they want for themselves.  They aren't riding bicycles anymore they want Harley Davidsons and unlike us, they're willing to work to get them.

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,205Member Uncommon

    the west, particularly the region between th Atlantic and Pacific tends to be very fickle and trendy and ... unstable.

     

    Korea is a more stable place to develop an MMO for.

     

    the West, including EU here has the following problem for a new mmo started today:

     

    MMO developed: 2012 to 2017.

    MMO played: 2017 to 2018.

    MMO struggling, need for different business model and shifting all effort from developing to marketing and to player retention: 2018-2021.

    MMO shutdown for hemorraging money: 2022.

     

    If I had to choose what business to dump a lot of money into I'd never pick an MMO. I'd pick...warehousing. I make big building, you dump shit in it, you pay per month per cubic meter. shit sits there as long as you want. You bring your own truck to scoop it out. No food and no medical supplies allowed.

     

    basically why i mentioned that...companies, especially large budget ones want a safer, more reliable approach even if the risk and reward are less. that's why WoW's model is so mass-produced. It's generally the smaller ones that take chances.

     

    a game like "Puddle" is a small game where you tilt the camera and navigate a few drops of liquid in a 2D maze. I got it on steam for $8. Amazing game.

     

    a game like SWTOR...huge budget. Falls in the cheesy "too big to fail" area. What are their developers doing now after a 8-digit investment failed to materialize in the expected 9-digit profit? changing business models and trying to force people into their game by many means.

     

    Is EST beating WEST ? no. Their players simply are more interested in MMOs than we are. Their games aren't any more on our taste than ours are.

     

     

    tldr: east mmo makers make better mmo's for east audiences than the west does for western audiences. Because the western developer-consumer relationship in the past 5 years has basically caused both sides to 'move on'.

    IMO in the west MMOs are killed by two things: 1) lack of in-game NEED for socialization. 2) internet on your cell-phones causing lack of IRL NEED of socialization. Look at them, they're basically the same thing. We socialize less, they develop around socializing less, crap comes out, we don't play. so they make it more solo-centric, we play even less. They dumb it down more, we beat it and move on faster.

     

    consumers and developers in west are stuck in a vicious cycle that is spiraling out of control rapidly. we are weary of them and they of us.

    image

  • RazeeksterRazeekster Solon, MEPosts: 2,201Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Abuz0r

    Of course, we are the most lazy soceity on earth always waiting on someone else to do something that we're too lazy to do.

    Oh geez don't start me on this rant.  I am 27 and everyone of my generation and younger thinks they were born with the promise of being succesful in life and not having to do anything to earn it.

    Even Mr. OP says he won't be putting anything into kickstarter until he sees it come to fruition.  Let's dissect that phrase.  "I won't help other people make things I want, instead I will wait until after someone else helps them to make the things I want, then maybe I will help them."

    Sorry for picking on the OP, the OP has a valid point in the topic, the East is ambitious, they know what they want and they're willing to work hard to make what they want for themselves.  They aren't riding bicycles anymore they want Harley Davidsons and unlike us, they're willing to work to get them.

    You clearly misread my comment. Where did I say I never funded a Kickstarter project? No where. I have, in fact, funded several Kickstarter projects, like Xyson, and all I saw from that was developers not backing up their promises. That's what I meant with "not putting much stock" into Kickstarter.

    Smile

  • Abuz0rAbuz0r Lexington, KYPosts: 354Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Razeekster
    Originally posted by Abuz0r

    Of course, we are the most lazy soceity on earth always waiting on someone else to do something that we're too lazy to do.

    Oh geez don't start me on this rant.  I am 27 and everyone of my generation and younger thinks they were born with the promise of being succesful in life and not having to do anything to earn it.

    Even Mr. OP says he won't be putting anything into kickstarter until he sees it come to fruition.  Let's dissect that phrase.  "I won't help other people make things I want, instead I will wait until after someone else helps them to make the things I want, then maybe I will help them."

    Sorry for picking on the OP, the OP has a valid point in the topic, the East is ambitious, they know what they want and they're willing to work hard to make what they want for themselves.  They aren't riding bicycles anymore they want Harley Davidsons and unlike us, they're willing to work to get them.

    You clearly misread my comment. Where did I say I never funded a Kickstarter project? No where. I have, in fact, funded several Kickstarter projects, like Xyson, and all I saw from that was developers not backing up their promises. That's what I meant with "not putting much stock" into Kickstarter.

    Ok fair point I misinterpreted it.  I stand corrected.

    My point still stands that the east are making themselves what they want, and we are not.

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,205Member Uncommon

    Funding Kickstarter is a lot like sending food to Africa.

     

    I have no objection to the concept, but I MUST know that it's going to the population, not to the local warlord's compound.

     

     

    image

  • RazeeksterRazeekster Solon, MEPosts: 2,201Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Robokapp

    the west, particularly the region between th Atlantic and Pacific tends to be very fickle and trendy and ... unstable.

     

    Korea is a more stable place to develop an MMO for.

     

    the West, including EU here has the following problem for a new mmo started today:

     

    MMO developed: 2012 to 2017.

    MMO played: 2017 to 2018.

    MMO struggling, need for different business model and shifting all effort from developing to marketing and to player retention: 2018-2021.

    MMO shutdown for hemorraging money: 2022.

     

    If I had to choose what business to dump a lot of money into I'd never pick an MMO. I'd pick...warehousing. I make big building, you dump shit in it, you pay per month per cubic meter. shit sits there as long as you want. You bring your own truck to scoop it out. No food and no medical supplies allowed.

     

    basically why i mentioned that...companies, especially large budget ones want a safer, more reliable approach even if the risk and reward are less. that's why WoW's model is so mass-produced. It's generally the smaller ones that take chances.

     

    a game like "Puddle" is a small game where you tilt the camera and navigate a few drops of liquid in a 2D maze. I got it on steam for $8. Amazing game.

     

    a game like SWTOR...huge budget. Falls in the cheesy "too big to fail" area. What are their developers doing now after a 8-digit investment failed to materialize in the expected 9-digit profit? changing business models and trying to force people into their game by many means.

     

    Is EST beating WEST ? no. Their players simply are more interested in MMOs than we are. Their games aren't any more on our taste than ours are.

     

     

    tldr: east mmo makers make better mmo's for east audiences than the west does for western audiences. Because the western developer-consumer relationship in the past 5 years has basically caused both sides to 'move on'.

    IMO in the west MMOs are killed by two things: 1) lack of in-game NEED for socialization. 2) internet on your cell-phones causing lack of IRL NEED of socialization. Look at them, they're basically the same thing. We socialize less, they develop around socializing less, crap comes out, we don't play. so they make it more solo-centric, we play even less. They dumb it down more, we beat it and move on faster.

     

    consumers and developers in west are stuck in a vicious cycle that is spiraling out of control rapidly. we are weary of them and they of us.

    I don't know about your view point as I personally hate most Western MMOs. Like you said they are the same most of the time, copying the WoW formula. There are of course exceptions like EVE, but for the most part I find them uninspired.

    Smile

  • entityxentityx JohannesburgPosts: 39Member

    "popular IPs get turned into MMOs they don't do well a lot of times".

    Like that Warcraft mmo. That did not do well at all. Seriously though, since when has it been a competition between the East and the West? The way I see it there are people around the world creating mmos. Some do better jobs in different areas. For example TSW, superb story and voice acting, but shoddy graphics and animations; TERA, beatiful graphics and animations, fun combat system, but dull grind.

    Who cares who is surpassing whom? Seriously?

  • RazeeksterRazeekster Solon, MEPosts: 2,201Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by entityx

    "popular IPs get turned into MMOs they don't do well a lot of times".

    Like that Warcraft mmo. That did not do well at all. Seriously though, since when has it been a competition between the East and the West? The way I see it there are people around the world creating mmos. Some do better jobs in different areas. For example TSW, superb story and voice acting, but shoddy graphics and animations; TERA, beatiful graphics and animations, fun combat system, but dull grind.

    Who cares who is surpassing whom? Seriously?

    I do. And not really sure why you sound so offended and angry.

    Smile

  • Abuz0rAbuz0r Lexington, KYPosts: 354Member Uncommon
    The whole problem is we americans never want to give up our training wheels and when we fall down we want mommy to pick us up and coddle us.  MMORPG devs know they have to kissywissysmissy the wibble babies if they want to make any money off wester audiences.  Us hard core gamers that can't stand the coddling dribble get aggravated while all the middleschoolers think it's the best game ever released.
  • miguksarammiguksaram Fort Meade, MDPosts: 826Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by entityx

    "popular IPs get turned into MMOs they don't do well a lot of times".

    Like that Warcraft mmo. That did not do well at all. Seriously though, since when has it been a competition between the East and the West? The way I see it there are people around the world creating mmos. Some do better jobs in different areas. For example TSW, superb story and voice acting, but shoddy graphics and animations; TERA, beatiful graphics and animations, fun combat system, but dull grind.

    Who cares who is surpassing whom? Seriously?

    Really???  TSW shoddy graphics?  Animations no one can really argue with but graphics as a whole is quite a stretch of the imagination unless you simply have never seen it running on a computer that can actually take advantage of the graphical system in that game.

  • RazeeksterRazeekster Solon, MEPosts: 2,201Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by miguksaram
    Originally posted by entityx

    "popular IPs get turned into MMOs they don't do well a lot of times".

    Like that Warcraft mmo. That did not do well at all. Seriously though, since when has it been a competition between the East and the West? The way I see it there are people around the world creating mmos. Some do better jobs in different areas. For example TSW, superb story and voice acting, but shoddy graphics and animations; TERA, beatiful graphics and animations, fun combat system, but dull grind.

    Who cares who is surpassing whom? Seriously?

    Really???  TSW shoddy graphics?  Animations no one can really argue with but graphics as a whole is quite a stretch of the imagination.

    I'd have to agree if he/she said the graphics on the characters. Humans in TSW seem a bit off to me.

    Smile

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,205Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by entityx

    "popular IPs get turned into MMOs they don't do well a lot of times".

    Like that Warcraft mmo.

    you are going to have to stop looking at WoW and EVE as representativ of the entire industry. They're both exceptions, and also neither of them is a moern MMO. they date from 2004 and 2003 respectively. This topic adresses "present tense".

     

     

    Who cares who is surpassing whom? Seriously? I do as well.

    Edit: don't mention graphics. The human mind is good at simplifying information to process it faster.

     

    no matter how flashy a game is, it will be trivialized after a month of gameplay.

    let's pick a shooter for my point. No matter how flashy the weapons, and how gory the blood spill from every bullet wound is, after a month all you see is a stick figure where torso = 2 bullets, head = 1 bullet, arm/leg = 4 bullets for a kill.

     

    graphics like THIS ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gT0ej86lwU ) can create a great MMO if the gameplay...THE GAMEPLAY... supports a great mmo. graphics and animations themselves are great for the free month and that's it.

     

    image

  • allendale5allendale5 kansas city, MOPosts: 124Member
    My opinion is that a lot of it comes down to economics. It is far more expensive to produce MMO titles here than it is there.  Having said that though, I do realize that many parts of western games are farmed out: the programming, the customer service, etc.  These days, I don't think that we can easily separate the two any more due to such a mixed global economy.  I personally do not care for eastern types of games, and least for the whole kung-fu type of lightning quick combat; for me it lacks a certain realism.  
  • FrodoFraginsFrodoFragins Manchester, NHPosts: 2,926Member Uncommon
    Companies like Blizzard show that it's more profitable to create games that run on lots of machines than those that require powerful ones. 
  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaPosts: 8,428Member Uncommon

    Different types of markets.

    We are seeing things even out now all because of one reason >>>cash shops/RMT.

    Over there it was a simple case of get a billion games out and hope players spend on cash shops for playh to win advantages.

    Now over here games have been moving in the same direction.Don't let them fool you with the BS about RMT in our game is meaningless becuae you don't design something that encourages players to NOT spend,that is BS

    So we are seeing the same trends here now,get games out fast and just create that pvp environment where players will spend to get ahead.

    Archeage will imo easily release a better product than EVERYTHING released over here in the past several years,but don't expect a god sent game.I see several areas of concern and once you have the complaints,they start to pile up.

    I am not in favor of the class design in AA.I feel class design and mob design are the msot important backbones to great gaming.

    Limitations on character/class = problems.

    I also worry about RMT ,it will definitely be a huge part of any big name game.

    If AA can keep it clean and sell their version of class design and pvp,i see it being a huge success.

     


    Samoan Diamond

  • SerenesSerenes johnson city, TNPosts: 352Member

    I don't believe this at all.

    I think the Easts time in the sun for games passed. Look at the companies, many Japanesse/Korean/etc companies our now struggling in a primairly western dominated market. Its one of the few things the East did and we did better, its usually the other way around.

     

    NcSoft - Struggling.

    SE - Struggling.

    Nintendo - Not quite as good as before.

    Sony - Struggling.

    A lot of these companies do respectable in their home countries.

     

    Blizzard - Thrieving world wide.

    Bethesda - TES sold well every where but Japan.

    Riot Games -  League of Legends nough said.

    ArenaNet - While being owned by a Korean company is a American group.

     

     

    The public has spoken on what kind of game they want, and its not what the east is selling anymore.

     

     

    Japan is trying to be stuborn though.

  • Crazy_StickCrazy_Stick Privacy Preferred, NCPosts: 1,059Member

    I was actually thinking about this tonight OP and I am forced to agree. Both Age of Wushu (Wulin) and Blade & Soul are very impressive games with innovative features and impressive production values. They are great examples and anything but just grinders. I honestly do not see a Western MMO available or in the works that can compete with either one right now.

     

    I find many of the comments regarding lazy or babied game players of western nationality to be little more than silly, trollish, nationalistic drivel, unworthy of discussion...

     

    As one poster noted, it is currently cheaper to make games in Asia with high production values. I would go further and note that they are not as conservative or afraid to invest in new concepts compared to the WOW clone glut in the west.

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,205Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Crazy_Stick

     

    I find many of the comments regarding lazy or babied game players of western nationality to be little more than silly, trollish, nationalistic drivel, unworthy of discussion...

     

     

    Uh...it's not nationalism to call ourselves something negative, sir.

     

    Nationalism is the next level above patriotism.

    image

  • ArglebargleArglebargle Austin, TXPosts: 1,413Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Abuz0r
    The whole problem is we americans never want to give up our training wheels and when we fall down we want mommy to pick us up and coddle us.  MMORPG devs know they have to kissywissysmissy the wibble babies if they want to make any money off wester audiences.  Us hard core gamers that can't stand the coddling dribble get aggravated while all the middleschoolers think it's the best game ever released.

    I think it's more along the lines of  'we' like to complain when other people are having fun at things we sneer at, especially when our own fun is not nearly so...hefty.   And complain, and complain, and anoint ourselves very elite and clever at it too.   Don't you think?

    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  • RazeeksterRazeekster Solon, MEPosts: 2,201Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Crazy_Stick

    I was actually thinking about this tonight OP and I am forced to agree. Both Age of Wushu (Wulin) and Blade & Soul are very impressive games with innovative features and impressive production values. They are great examples and anything but just grinders. I honestly do not see a Western MMO available or in the works that can compete with either one right now.

     

    I find many of the comments regarding lazy or babied game players of western nationality to be little more than silly, trollish, nationalistic drivel, unworthy of discussion...

     

    As one poster noted, it is currently cheaper to make games in Asia with high production values. I would go further and note that they are not as conservative or afraid to invest in new concepts compared to the WOW clone glut in the west.

    Pretty much what I think. And the sad part is how a lot of the West talks about how suckish the MMOs are from the East and then I have to say "What games does the West have that are so impressive?" Rift? WoW (which is 8 years old now)? GW2? I liked Guild Wars 2, but even with dynamic content it still feels the same as other Western MMOs. I just don't see a lot innovation here in the West.

    Smile

  • snapfusionsnapfusion San, CAPosts: 954Member

    I suppose if you are consumed by eastern culture then YES we are.  Personaly not a SINGLE game has come out of the east that appeals to me in any way.

    Dont like the art styles

    Dont like the music

    Dont like the animations

    Dont like the sound effects

    Dont ike the combat

    Dont like the quest content or writing

    Dont like their use of textures lighting etc.

    So basically nothing

    If your saying the ONE up and coming game that might possibly not suck (Archage) means we are getting beat game design wise than thats a pretty silly statement.

  • LadyEupheiLadyEuphei Indianapolis, INPosts: 223Member

    Wouldn't it be better to see if ArcheAge is successful first? I mean we have seen semi sandboxs...sandboxy....sandboxish....vaguely sandbox-esque game before and they all fail hard and are more park than box and more theme than sand. I am putting my money on a smaller company getting a sandbox game out in the west before the east. 

    *Im on team west*

    GO JACOB! :p

    image

  • RazeeksterRazeekster Solon, MEPosts: 2,201Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by snapfusion

    I suppose if you are consumed by eastern culture then YES we are.  Personaly not a SINGLE game has come out of the east that appeals to me in any way.

    Dont like the art styles

    Dont like the music

    Dont like the animations

    Dont like the sound effects

    Dont ike the combat

    Dont like the quest content or writing

    Dont like their use of textures lighting etc.

    So basically nothing

    If your saying the ONE up and coming game that might possibly not suck (Archage) means we are getting beat game design wise than thats a pretty silly statement.

    You didn't read my whole post... The whole focus wasn't at all on ArcheAge or sandboxes which if you had read my whole post, it clearly even stated as much.

    Smile

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Razeekster
    ArcheAge is the first sandbox+themepark mixed game coming out soon in Korea. Yes there have been some sandbox games here in the West, but the quality of them has been piss poor. That's one thing that I noticed in general. Graphically speaking the East has us beat. Their games are far superior in the graphics department and I don't understand why. I believe that the West has the cabalities to be right on par with them in the graphics department.It seems like the Eastern MMO industry is more accepting to funding AAA sandbox MMOs more so than the West now because another one is also being made in China called Project S. My whole focus is not meant to be on sandboxes, so you need to think that is what I'm trying to get at. I'm just noticing how the East is now developing less and less of what the West considers grindy games and going for more quality ones. I mean look at B&S and Age of Wushu. Those are also both two impressive games, with Age of Wushu introducing features that I don't think I've even heard of in other asian martial arts MMOs.What does the West have going for it in 2013... The Elder Scrolls Online? No offense but I don't believe that MMO will be as successful as a lot of people seem to think. People seem to forget that most of the time when popular IPs get turned into MMOs they don't do well a lot of times (with the exception of LotRO maybe). Not only that but TESO isn't even adding the combat which it's famous for into the MMO version and I can't see it being wildly popular simply based on the lore.The other things that the West have going for it are mostly unfinished projects backed up by Kickstarter, which until I see come to fruition I won't be putting much stock into.What do you guys think? Is the East surpassing the West when it comes to the quality of MMOs? I myself am seeing less and less of asian grinders and more and more quality looking games coming from the East (the grinders I do see coming to the West from the East have already been in the East for 4+ years and so I don't count those).

    The "East" is developing games for Asian audiences, and then getting additional profits in the West. The "West" is developing games for non-Asian audiences and then getting additional profits in the East.

    If the Eastern developers are more accepting of something different, it's because their audience is more accepting of something different, not because they are more accepting of something different.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • RazeeksterRazeekster Solon, MEPosts: 2,201Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by Razeekster
    ArcheAge is the first sandbox+themepark mixed game coming out soon in Korea. Yes there have been some sandbox games here in the West, but the quality of them has been piss poor. That's one thing that I noticed in general. Graphically speaking the East has us beat. Their games are far superior in the graphics department and I don't understand why. I believe that the West has the cabalities to be right on par with them in the graphics department.

     

    It seems like the Eastern MMO industry is more accepting to funding AAA sandbox MMOs more so than the West now because another one is also being made in China called Project S. 

    My whole focus is not meant to be on sandboxes, so you need to think that is what I'm trying to get at. I'm just noticing how the East is now developing less and less of what the West considers grindy games and going for more quality ones. I mean look at B&S and Age of Wushu. Those are also both two impressive games, with Age of Wushu introducing features that I don't think I've even heard of in other asian martial arts MMOs.

    What does the West have going for it in 2013... The Elder Scrolls Online? No offense but I don't believe that MMO will be as successful as a lot of people seem to think. People seem to forget that most of the time when popular IPs get turned into MMOs they don't do well a lot of times (with the exception of LotRO maybe). Not only that but TESO isn't even adding the combat which it's famous for into the MMO version and I can't see it being wildly popular simply based on the lore.

    The other things that the West have going for it are mostly unfinished projects backed up by Kickstarter, which until I see come to fruition I won't be putting much stock into.

    What do you guys think? Is the East surpassing the West when it comes to the quality of MMOs? I myself am seeing less and less of asian grinders and more and more quality looking games coming from the East (the grinders I do see coming to the West from the East have already been in the East for 4+ years and so I don't count those).



    The "East" is developing games for Asian audiences, and then getting additional profits in the West. The "West" is developing games for non-Asian audiences and then getting additional profits in the East.

    If the Eastern developers are more accepting of something different, it's because their audience is more accepting of something different, not because they are more accepting of something different.

     

    I don't know what you mean. The West has been asking for these same features too. I just think the developers here in the West aren't willing to take as many risks. 

    Smile

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