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Can the EvE formula be achieved without being in space?

injenuinjenu miami, FLPosts: 142Member

A game that caters to those who like full loot ffa pvp as well as the pve crowd such as in Eve, could it ever be done on land? 

The main incentive to be in null-sec is increased risk for better resources.  Empire space has faction warfare, as well as war-decs that also incorporate risk, except the rats (mobs) don't yield the best loot, and the belts do not have the best value.  

So what is it that enables this balance? Is it Jita? Is it having "gates" to separate systems? I actually want the opinion of this board as I feel that it can be done, it's just a matter of figuring out the mechanic(s) that create this balance. 

 

 

Comments

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,211Member Uncommon

    I think the reason EVE is still successful is because of PLEX the monetization of in game cash and the ability to play for free.  If they didn't have that system in place EVE wouldn't be anywhere near as successful as it is.  The other aspects you mention are factors and need to work, but really it's about PLEX.

    So if Darkfall can monetize their in game currency and sell a way for players to play for free then maybe.  If not all those others factors won't likely matter.

  • Southpaw.GamerSouthpaw.Gamer Guelph, ONPosts: 572Member
    Darkfall will never be like EvE because of the crafting system in Darkfall being far behind in terms of complexity.  There is nearly no economy in Darkfall.  In saying that I find Darkfall much more entertaining than EvE... but really if EvE had a FPS combat system I doubt I'd even look at Darkfall ever again.  Pity that will never happen and EvE combat will remain boring as all hell for the remainder of its lifespan.

    Full Sail University - Game Design

  • kadepsysonkadepsyson sun prairie, WIPosts: 1,937Member

    Kinda odd that this is in the Darkfall forum without mentioning anything about darkfall, except perhaps to mention there is "land".

     

    Anyways, if you want EVE-on-land, look at perpetuum.  It's the closest game to that.

    If you want the perfect storm of player interaction, freedom and freeform play, and risk vs reward choices... well I don't know of any other game that comes close.

     

    Edit: Also the "Jita" part wasn't a developer designated trade hub.  It arose from player choice, exactly how it should.

    El Psy Congroo

  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    I think the reason EVE is still successful is because of PLEX the monetization of in game cash and the ability to play for free.  If they didn't have that system in place EVE wouldn't be anywhere near as successful as it is.  The other aspects you mention are factors and need to work, but really it's about PLEX.

    So if Darkfall can monetize their in game currency and sell a way for players to play for free then maybe.  If not all those others factors won't likely matter.

    PLEX is just a disguised cash shop which turns Eve into F2P for some people. So what you are saying is that Eve is successful because it being a disguised F2P?

    Hm, yeah I am not buying it. I think it is successful because the game is quite deep, complex and has relatively few boundaries when it comes to PvP.

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,998Member Uncommon

    People should not play DF:UW expecting it to be anything like EVE, totally different focus for each IMO.

    Both can be fun, but don't assume because EVE has certain features that they are (or should) be part of DF:UW.

    Play the new game for what it has and if its any fun as delvered, don't focus on what it lacks compared to other titles or you're bound to set yourself up for disappointment.

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • OG_ZorvanOG_Zorvan Fresno, CAPosts: 615Member

    Sure it can. Problem is the only one who has used EvE as inspiration was Perpetuum Online, and blatantly stealing/copying another mmo in it's entirety ( oh, except you're a robot, not a spaceship lol ) doesn't get you far. It's no different than the fail WoW-clones like Allods Online. Noone wants to play a cheap ass copy of another game.

    But an original, unique game using the systems and gameplay variety of EvE could do very well. This is where games like Darkfall screwed up. They had a successful, proven FFA PvP game that even attracts pure PvE'ers to learn from, and instead made a run-of-the-mill gankfest. You wanna make a successful PvP game, trying to copy games from 1998, ( which was a century ago in game years ), isn't the way to do it. It's a new day and a whole different market out there than it was when UO came out.

     

    EA CEO John Riccitiello's on future microtransactions: "When you are six hours into playing Battlefield and you run out of ammo in your clip, and we ask you for a dollar to reload, you're really not very price sensitive at that point in time...We're not gouging, but we're charging."

  • gravesworngravesworn charleston, WVPosts: 324Member
    For darkfall to be a long term game I do believe they need to readjust or rework crafting and the economy, while I make no claim as the best way to go about this, i do feel they will be two big factors in to the over all success of darkfall unholy wars.
  • injenuinjenu miami, FLPosts: 142Member

    I do think that there are more similarities than differences between the player base of Eve and that of DFUW, which is why I put this on the Darkfall board.  I never really considered the PLEX idea, as I don't play enough to be able to support that as my means for the subscription.  In regards to crafting, you're absolutely right, Darkfall could never have the same crafting system but that I don't believe is the main reason for Eve's success.

    I think Darkfall or any game venturing in the Full Loot FFA pvp niche could in fact mimic a lot of core mechanics within Eve.  If I recall, UO had war decs whereas players could kill other players within cities if their guilds were at war.  So basically a game where there was a "lawful" land that only declared faction warriors could fight other faction warriors, or guilds that have declared war on another guild which would obviously cost a lot of whatever the currency would be.  Then there would be the lawless land in which the real meta game occurred, where everyone/everything was fair game.

    Will darkfall be this game? It could be.. The good news is that I think there will always be a following for this type of game, hence an indie developer that tries to capture this niche.  Hell if I ever made it big I'd certainly trying to create one. 

  • injenuinjenu miami, FLPosts: 142Member

    I also think one of the core reasons Darkfall failed was the grind, and the disparity that this caused by hardcore players/macroers vs. the casual crowd.  Add no skill cap and this gap is widened even further.  

    Another reason Eve is successful is accessibility.  While the learning curve is pretty steep, you could fit out a tackle rifter in less than a few days and be part of fleets.  There's also the fact that there really wasn't a deeply OP ship that one could fly - it's more about strategy and the situation itself. 

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,998Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by injenu

    I do think that there are more similarities than differences between the player base of Eve and that of DFUW, which is why I put this on the Darkfall board.  I never really considered the PLEX idea, as I don't play enough to be able to support that as my means for the subscription.  In regards to crafting, you're absolutely right, Darkfall could never have the same crafting system but that I don't believe is the main reason for Eve's success.

    I think Darkfall or any game venturing in the Full Loot FFA pvp niche could in fact mimic a lot of core mechanics within Eve.  If I recall, UO had war decs whereas players could kill other players within cities if their guilds were at war.  So basically a game where there was a "lawful" land that only declared faction warriors could fight other faction warriors, or guilds that have declared war on another guild which would obviously cost a lot of whatever the currency would be.  Then there would be the lawless land in which the real meta game occurred, where everyone/everything was fair game.

    Will darkfall be this game? It could be.. The good news is that I think there will always be a following for this type of game, hence an indie developer that tries to capture this niche.  Hell if I ever made it big I'd certainly trying to create one. 

    Crafting may not be EVE's main reason for success, but its role in the overall economy could arguably be in the top 3 reasons for why the title has endured for so long. 

    There's a good reason CCP employs a full time economist to watch over and analyze the in game economy.

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • Crazy_StickCrazy_Stick Privacy Preferred, NCPosts: 1,059Member
    Well an EVE like formula set on a planet is kind of what Perpetuum tried to do for better and worse. It might serve as an example...
  • OG_ZorvanOG_Zorvan Fresno, CAPosts: 615Member
    Originally posted by Crazy_Stick
    Well an EVE like formula set on a planet is kind of what Perpetuum tried to do for better and worse. It might serve as an example...

    Which I brought up earlier in the thread. Perpetuum failed because they tried to make a blatant copy of EvE, right down to the UI, instead of adapting the systems to a completely original game.

    Why would you play a cheap copy of another better game?

    EvE's systems/gameplay in an original game = success.

     

    EA CEO John Riccitiello's on future microtransactions: "When you are six hours into playing Battlefield and you run out of ammo in your clip, and we ask you for a dollar to reload, you're really not very price sensitive at that point in time...We're not gouging, but we're charging."

  • kadepsysonkadepsyson sun prairie, WIPosts: 1,937Member

    Hey how does one go about PMing a mod to let them know this topic needs to be moved into the EVE section?

    Based on the first post in the thread and the subject, it has absolutely nothing to do with Darkfall: Unholy Wars in particular, and it is obviously causing some confusion to people who reply that it is supposed to be about Darkfall: UW.

    At best, this thread could possibly be seen as a more general than EVE discussion about Sandbox elements, using EVE as an example of success.

    But it has absolutely nothing to do with Darkfall: Unholy Wars specifically based on the thread authors original post.

    El Psy Congroo

  • DrekorDrekor Griffith, ONPosts: 22Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by injenu
    I do think that there are more similarities than differences between the player base of Eve and that of DFUW, which is why I put this on the Darkfall board.  I never really considered the PLEX idea, as I don't play enough to be able to support that as my means for the subscription.  In regards to crafting, you're absolutely right, Darkfall could never have the same crafting system but that I don't believe is the main reason for Eve's success.
    The PLEX system did not make EVE what is it. It has helped keep it that way for sure though. The biggest issue that darkfall is missing is the economy. Take a look at EVE's economy... it's mind boggling how well done it is. The game is basically built on top of it, most other MMOs have an economy thrown on top more as fluff but in eve it's the core of it. Darkfall was missing an economy entirely before... have to see if UW improves on that.

    Drekor Silverfang
    The Shipwrecked Pirates

  • SeronysSeronys Windsor, ONPosts: 43Member

    In DF1 the closest thing DF had to EVE's security was guard towers throughout the starter cities and random banks along the way. They would ZAP and attack red(there was/is an alignment system.) players or players of an enemy race. Blue (friendly) would not get attacked, but if war were declared on enemy clan and you were both in said city, it was fair game. There use to be clans who would war dec everyone just to grief them in starter cities, but they fixed that issue, i have no idea why they decided to go with straight safe zones.

    This game wasn't designed for hardcore PVErs, sorry but thats how it is and I don't think it will change anytime soon. Any PVE safezone will be player created by the clan you join, if you join a highly active, large numbered clan, people are going to be scared to come near your cities, or your mob spawns, cause they know they're going to get zerged out, this is about as safe as it will get. Even if you aren't in a big clan, just cause you don't have your unstoppable NPC guarding you will you mindlessly kill AI doesn't mean your going to get ganked 100%. Although the risk is high, finding remote low traffic areas, farming close to a bank so you can at least have the chance of saving some of the loot you worked for. Remember there is no local chat icons to tell who is in your vicinity, people have to visually spot you, or hear you to find you. (assuming they fixed load lag)

  • YalexyYalexy BerlinPosts: 1,053Member Uncommon

    The solution is rather simple and ArcheAge is going down this road: split the world into continents divided by sea and have items destroyed by either PvP or PvE.

    This way you solve it all actually. You can have different PvP-rulesets for the continents and the destruction of items creates constant demand of ressources leading to a working economy.

    You don't actually need a very complex crafting-system like suggested by many other posters and I don't think EvEs crafting-system is very complex. The only thing that makes EvEs crafting complex is the number of ressources and the number of parts needed to manufacture the end-product, but once you've setup your production-chain and took care of the logistics, it doesn't require any thought actually.
    All you need sort out is the supply- and process-chain in the beginning, which doesn't take longer then a day and an Excel-spreadsheet.

    Key to EvEs success is the good combination of economy, PvE and PvP, where players can choose the way they want to play the game without being forced to do anything.
    Tons of players in EvE never took part in PvP, yet they cater to the community by fueling the economy by doing PvE. Works the other way around aswell.

    That's where Darkfall failed. There was no option to play the game without being constantly forced to PvP.

  • WhiteLanternWhiteLantern Nevada, MOPosts: 2,732Member

    I'm sure you could do a Waterworld-style setting where everyone is a boat.

     

     

     

    Come to think of it, that could be cool...........

    I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil

  • tom_goretom_gore TamperePosts: 1,796Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Yalexy

    That's where Darkfall failed. There was no option to play the game without being constantly forced to PvP.

    This guy has it. Darkfall only caters to those who like to PvP. EVE gives you a choice. Even if someone can gank you in High Sec it happens very rarely, as they aggressor will 100% lose his ship doing so.

    In Darkfall outside the cities there are no safe zones. It does not mean you might get ganked. It means you WILL be ganked.

     

    Call me a carebear but we keep your MMOs alive ;)

     

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko RotterdamPosts: 3,845Member Uncommon

    It's very unlikely that any land-based MMO will ever come close to EVE's scale.

     

    Consider the fact that EVE's game world is MASSIVE in comparison to any other past or present MMO. There's over 5500 star systems, so that's 5500+ instanced areas. EVE can pull it off because space is empty. There's no terrain LoS issues, and no need to constantly calculate character position to make sure that people don't "fall through the map". There's minimal assets to be rendered in that vast space.

    It also means that a group of players can permanently control big chunks of the game world, and deny access to anyone who's not strong enough to break in. It's possible to do that, because each star system has a very limited amount of entry points which can be patrolled and blockaded.

    No land-based game can afford to allow groups of players to "exclusively own" large chunks of the game world, because there simply isn't enough of it. It would mean that anyone not playing as part of the land-owning groups would only have free access to a tiny part of the already small game world.

  • YalexyYalexy BerlinPosts: 1,053Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by SpottyGekko
    It's very unlikely that any land-based MMO will ever come close to EVE's scale. Consider the fact that EVE's game world is MASSIVE in comparison to any other past or present MMO. There's over 5500 star systems, so that's 5500+ instanced areas. EVE can pull it off because space is empty. There's no terrain LoS issues, and no need to constantly calculate character position to make sure that people don't "fall through the map". There's minimal assets to be rendered in that vast space.It also means that a group of players can permanently control big chunks of the game world, and deny access to anyone who's not strong enough to break in. It's possible to do that, because each star system has a very limited amount of entry points which can be patrolled and blockaded.No land-based game can afford to allow groups of players to "exclusively own" large chunks of the game world, because there simply isn't enough of it. It would mean that anyone not playing as part of the land-owning groups would only have free access to a tiny part of the already small game world.

    You're pretty wrong about this.

    In a landbased MMO you sure can control large areas. All you've to do is built armed and manned outposts/outlooks that are in sight to each other like it was done 2000 years ago in the roman empire.
    Once enemies appear, you exactly know where to send your troops to fend off an attack.
    In a modern setting this would be even easier, due to known technology such as radar, camera or satellite and a border guarded with unmanned and remote controlled towers.

    Also, making huge maps in a landbased MMO is no problem either. We've all seen huge maps in several MMOs allready. And the maps become even larger, if we apply realworld speeds. You know... a soldier in full gear can't go any faster by foot then some 10 km/h, especially not over longer distances. So let's settle around 5 km/h for walking.

    Go take a walk from Booty Bay to Startholme without mounts nor running... should take you some hours and Kalimdor is sure not the biggest continent to be found in a MMO. As comparison... Kalimdor is only as large as Manhattan (20x3.5 km).

    A continent the size of of New York City would allready be 10 times as large as Kalimdor, so go figure how much area there is for the players.

    Remember Earthrise? The map of Earthrise was 30x30km allready, and that was a low-budget-studio pulling it off.

    So no. Landbased MMOs can totally be made the way EvE is.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Yes
    Perpetuum is very simmilar to eve except it has was movement, you can terraform, high sec is really high sec and it has anti blob mechanics with the interference system.

    Df should have a look at interference imo. They could make it so spells have more chance of missfiring when close to other casters, would be an interesting zerg break mechanic.
  • asmkm22asmkm22 Anchorage, AKPosts: 1,788Member

    In short, not any time soon.  Even doesn't pretend to be anything more than a somewhat pretty spreadsheet.  The moment a game starts introducing things like animations and character models, expectations go up way too high for the game to recover unless it truly is the great white hope of MMO's.  With Eve, the dev's have been able to spend most of their time fine-tuning all the mechanics in tha background and cultivating the economy and such, due to the very basic graphics engine (starfield backdrop with static ship models and a few laser animations).  No terrain to load in memory.  No characters to customize (although they do have that now, although you can't interact with anyone).

    In short, Eve worked because they targeted a very niche but worldwide audience, and didn't even try to go after the "mainstream" or average MMO player.

    You make me like charity

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