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The depth of combat in GW2.

CalerxesCalerxes LondonPosts: 1,630Member Uncommon

After reading Elikal's thread about combat it got me thinking about the combat system. I've only just started playing GW2 as I've been in a few launches and they are just not fun so I held off for a few months. Now I've played a Mesmer to lvl 7 and my main is a lvl 19 Warrior so I am by no means an expert on this and thats really the point of the thread.

 

At the start of playing this game I was finding that I was dying frequently, solo and in groups and I thought this cannot be right I'm not that bad so I started to actually think why was this happening, this for me is the first sign of a deeper system than many other MMO's as the last few I've played its like putting on an old pair of boots with new laces. But unlike Elikal its not just about moving around, though thats a good portion to it, its about thinking what type of toon you want to play and then proceeding to build that toon. So for me looking at the weapon, skill and traits system and reading up on what a Warrior can be, I can already see a few different builds for my Warrior and have decided on one to follow. Now I don't get downed/die as much and I'm starting to use my weapon skills appropriately for the right situation this has been a slow but decent learning curve for me and that adds to the fun. With the added customization of gear and RNG I see finding the perfect build a bit of a longer process than I originally thought and that for me is a bonus. This is not pick a tree and bang your points in it type of system there is room for movement in how you build up your toon.

 

But it doesn't stop there, the mob system seems to have depth as well in that you have to watch for special attacks, debuffs, stuns etc.. that can actually have a serious effect on you rather than just a pretty animation. Now its all a bit hazy at the moment as it takes time to get to know the different attacks on different mobs and in a group you do whizz through content but it starts to really show on Champions and Veterens and when you solo a few mobs at once you have to be on your toes or you'll be downed quickly.

 

In saying all this, its all just "seems to have lots of depth" at the moment and it could just be from the dazzle of starting a fresh MMO with a different type of combat & skill system that has lots of options but very few actual usable builds and the spectre of limited customisation, fotm classes, skill rotations and rolfstomping will rear its ugly head but at the moment I'm having to think on my feet if I want avoid the crazy die/rez dance of completing content successfully.  

This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

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Comments

  • muffins89muffins89 Yakima, WAPosts: 1,306Member Uncommon
    it's percieved depth.  gw2 combat is pretty shallow.  aside from combo's with other players it's standard themepark combat.  with movement.  oh,  and dodge. 

    I think the prostitute mod corrupted your game files man. -elhefen

  • Neo_LibertyNeo_Liberty Lufkin, TXPosts: 429Member Uncommon
    It really is amazing.. like there is an item u add to ur upgrade wpn slot to give like 15% on critical to do a fire aoe.. that one upgrade for me gave so much opportunity for change/individuality. first i added it to my shield for shield attacks.. then i added it to my dual axe warrior and it just makes combat more adaptable.

    image
  • Neo_LibertyNeo_Liberty Lufkin, TXPosts: 429Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by muffins89
    it's percieved depth.  gw2 combat is pretty shallow.  aside from combo's with other players it's standard themepark combat.  with movement.  oh,  and dodge. 

    I love statements like those... why? because if guild wars is shallow.. then depth in other games must be nonexistant.

    image
  • muffins89muffins89 Yakima, WAPosts: 1,306Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Neo_Liberty
    Originally posted by muffins89
    it's percieved depth.  gw2 combat is pretty shallow.  aside from combo's with other players it's standard themepark combat.  with movement.  oh,  and dodge. 

    I love statements like those... why? because if guild wars is shallow.. then depth in other games must be nonexistant.

    i agree. 

    I think the prostitute mod corrupted your game files man. -elhefen

  • MardukkMardukk Posts: 1,557Member Uncommon

    I really like GW2's combat and it is definitely the highlight of the game.  I figured that things would get even more difficult as I leveled up but I'm finding it actually getting easier (max toon is 65 at this time).  I'm at the point now that I don't even have to dodge much anymore if it's only one or two mobs.  Hell, I can watch TV and click skills if I'm feeling lazy.  This is all PvE talk of course.

    Probably the most unique thing GW2 brought to the genre are combo fields.  I think the combo fields are a bit of brilliance that really add a great deal to combat.

     

    I just wish there was more to the game other than combat.  

  • Neo_LibertyNeo_Liberty Lufkin, TXPosts: 429Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Mardukk

    I really like GW2's combat and it is definitely the highlight of the game.  I figured that things would get even more difficult as I leveled up but I'm finding it actually getting easier (max toon is 65 at this time).  I'm at the point now that I don't even have to dodge much anymore if it's only one or two mobs.  Hell, I can watch TV and click skills if I'm feeling lazy.  This is all PvE talk of course.

    Probably the most unique thing GW2 brought to the genre are combo fields.  I think the combo fields are a bit of brilliance that really add a great deal to combat.

     

    I just wish there was more to the game other than combat.  

    I understand your sentiment, but honestly... I've played a lot of games and not many can compare. I don't understand the need to criticize every aspect of every game.. either u enjoy the game or you dont. no game is perfect.

    image
  • CalerxesCalerxes LondonPosts: 1,630Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Neo_Liberty
    Originally posted by Mardukk

    I really like GW2's combat and it is definitely the highlight of the game.  I figured that things would get even more difficult as I leveled up but I'm finding it actually getting easier (max toon is 65 at this time).  I'm at the point now that I don't even have to dodge much anymore if it's only one or two mobs.  Hell, I can watch TV and click skills if I'm feeling lazy.  This is all PvE talk of course.

    Probably the most unique thing GW2 brought to the genre are combo fields.  I think the combo fields are a bit of brilliance that really add a great deal to combat.

     

    I just wish there was more to the game other than combat.  

    I understand your sentiment, but honestly... I've played a lot of games and not many can compare. I don't understand the need to criticize every aspect of every game.. either u enjoy the game or you dont. no game is perfect.

     

    Without critique we will never understand the why's and wherefore's of games and systems that don't succeed and thus cannot learn how to avoid these things in the future. And yes nothing is perfect but we must strive for perfection to evolve though in the knowledge that we shall never get there.

    This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  • Neo_LibertyNeo_Liberty Lufkin, TXPosts: 429Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Calerxes
    Originally posted by Neo_Liberty
    Originally posted by Mardukk

    I really like GW2's combat and it is definitely the highlight of the game.  I figured that things would get even more difficult as I leveled up but I'm finding it actually getting easier (max toon is 65 at this time).  I'm at the point now that I don't even have to dodge much anymore if it's only one or two mobs.  Hell, I can watch TV and click skills if I'm feeling lazy.  This is all PvE talk of course.

    Probably the most unique thing GW2 brought to the genre are combo fields.  I think the combo fields are a bit of brilliance that really add a great deal to combat.

     

    I just wish there was more to the game other than combat.  

    I understand your sentiment, but honestly... I've played a lot of games and not many can compare. I don't understand the need to criticize every aspect of every game.. either u enjoy the game or you dont. no game is perfect.

     

    Without critique we will never understand the why's and wherefore's of games and systems that don't succeed and thus cannot learn how to avoid these things in the future. And yes nothing is perfect but we must strive for perfection to evolve though in the knowledge that we shall never get there.

    Maybe my post was inappropriate.. I agree with you and Mardukk. I personally have many issues with the game. I just understand that Devs are human/they have their own goals and ideals. With those things in mind, i don't understand why people find it necessary to hate. Mardukk comment was fine.  it was understandable and it was not an attack on anyones viewpoint or the game. but the one above about the lack of depth was unnecessary. The combat is probably the best i've seen in any "real" mmo.. vindictus and mabinogi's combat is different...  but others are typically point and click.

    image
  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    The combat in GW2 is a lot less faceroll and requires you to pay attention or suffer the consequences - but I wouldn't call that "depth."

    There may be more to it on the surface, but I wouldn't call it depth...

    Breadth?

    I would define "depth" when it refers to combat in a MMO as: complex interactions that happen at multiple layers.

    None of the interactions in GW2 are all that complex - most of the time they are fairly obvious, and in terms of layers it's really quite shallow.

    Once you go outside the realm of solo play and get into group play is where GW2 - IMO - really falls apart.

     

  • Neo_LibertyNeo_Liberty Lufkin, TXPosts: 429Member Uncommon
    I can agree with that... its not deep at all.. it is fairly shallow. but that is what the combat is meant to be like. when the focus is your ability to react and pay attention.. its not surpising that the combat doesn't have much tactics... its not meant to. the tactics in gw2 is about how u build ur char to meet ur playstyle and not about the combat itself... like i said before.. if i'm using a shield and axe warrior with very little condition dmg.. i add either a bleed rune or a skill rune for fire aoe on crit to add condition.. that is tactics and depth.. i've never seen a game other than gw2 where u can add a skill by adding a rune to a wpn

    image
  • muffins89muffins89 Yakima, WAPosts: 1,306Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Neo_Liberty
    Originally posted by Calerxes
    Originally posted by Neo_Liberty
    Originally posted by Mardukk

    I really like GW2's combat and it is definitely the highlight of the game.  I figured that things would get even more difficult as I leveled up but I'm finding it actually getting easier (max toon is 65 at this time).  I'm at the point now that I don't even have to dodge much anymore if it's only one or two mobs.  Hell, I can watch TV and click skills if I'm feeling lazy.  This is all PvE talk of course.

    Probably the most unique thing GW2 brought to the genre are combo fields.  I think the combo fields are a bit of brilliance that really add a great deal to combat.

     

    I just wish there was more to the game other than combat.  

    I understand your sentiment, but honestly... I've played a lot of games and not many can compare. I don't understand the need to criticize every aspect of every game.. either u enjoy the game or you dont. no game is perfect.

     

    Without critique we will never understand the why's and wherefore's of games and systems that don't succeed and thus cannot learn how to avoid these things in the future. And yes nothing is perfect but we must strive for perfection to evolve though in the knowledge that we shall never get there.

    Maybe my post was inappropriate.. I agree with you and Mardukk. I personally have many issues with the game. I just understand that Devs are human/they have their own goals and ideals. With those things in mind, i don't understand why people find it necessary to hate. Mardukk comment was fine.  it was understandable and it was not an attack on anyones viewpoint or the game. but the one above about the lack of depth was unnecessary. The combat is probably the best i've seen in any "real" mmo.. vindictus and mabinogi's combat is different...  but others are typically point and click.

    it lacks depth.  by lvl 12 or you have every ability.  it doesnt grow.  yes there are traits.  most of them are passive.  so a few hours into the game you are fighting mobs and using the same abilitys that you will be using 1000 hours into the game.   im not "hating" on the game,  as you say.  im stating my opinion.  the combat lack depth.  just becuae i don't agree with your view doesnt mean either of us are wrong.  we just see differently.  it also doesnt mean that im hating.

    I think the prostitute mod corrupted your game files man. -elhefen

  • muffins89muffins89 Yakima, WAPosts: 1,306Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Neo_Liberty
    I can agree with that... its not deep at all.. it is fairly shallow. but that is what the combat is meant to be like. when the focus is your ability to react and pay attention.. its not surpising that the combat doesn't have much tactics... its not meant to. the tactics in gw2 is about how u build ur char to meet ur playstyle and not about the combat itself... like i said before.. if i'm using a shield and axe warrior with very little condition dmg.. i add either a bleed rune or a skill rune for fire aoe on crit to add condition.. that is tactics and depth.. i've never seen a game other than gw2 where u can add a skill by adding a rune to a wpn

    can say that you are "hating" now?  because like me,  you also now say it lacks depth.

    I think the prostitute mod corrupted your game files man. -elhefen

  • kadepsysonkadepsyson sun prairie, WIPosts: 1,937Member

    Came into this thread expecting it to be a joke about underwater fighting.

    El Psy Congroo

  • Neo_LibertyNeo_Liberty Lufkin, TXPosts: 429Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by muffins89
    Originally posted by Neo_Liberty
    I can agree with that... its not deep at all.. it is fairly shallow. but that is what the combat is meant to be like. when the focus is your ability to react and pay attention.. its not surpising that the combat doesn't have much tactics... its not meant to. the tactics in gw2 is about how u build ur char to meet ur playstyle and not about the combat itself... like i said before.. if i'm using a shield and axe warrior with very little condition dmg.. i add either a bleed rune or a skill rune for fire aoe on crit to add condition.. that is tactics and depth.. i've never seen a game other than gw2 where u can add a skill by adding a rune to a wpn

    can say that you are "hating" now?  because like me,  you also now say it lacks depth.

    it wasn't ur statement itself.. that would be called hating.... i was refering to the way you went about it...  no discussion at all.. ppl say the forums are for discussion and everyone has a right to their opinion... i'm all for that.. but when you say.. this sucks.. or no depth and leave.. ur not really discussing the game or its mechanics... its more like criticism for criticism's sake.

    image
  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by Mardukk

    I really like GW2's combat and it is definitely the highlight of the game.  I figured that things would get even more difficult as I leveled up but I'm finding it actually getting easier (max toon is 65 at this time).  I'm at the point now that I don't even have to dodge much anymore if it's only one or two mobs.  Hell, I can watch TV and click skills if I'm feeling lazy.  This is all PvE talk of course.

    Probably the most unique thing GW2 brought to the genre are combo fields.  I think the combo fields are a bit of brilliance that really add a great deal to combat.

     

    I just wish there was more to the game other than combat.  

    Until you get to Orr - then things go back like you are level 1. JES saying.....

     

    Keep dodging

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • muffins89muffins89 Yakima, WAPosts: 1,306Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Neo_Liberty
    Originally posted by muffins89
    Originally posted by Neo_Liberty
    I can agree with that... its not deep at all.. it is fairly shallow. but that is what the combat is meant to be like. when the focus is your ability to react and pay attention.. its not surpising that the combat doesn't have much tactics... its not meant to. the tactics in gw2 is about how u build ur char to meet ur playstyle and not about the combat itself... like i said before.. if i'm using a shield and axe warrior with very little condition dmg.. i add either a bleed rune or a skill rune for fire aoe on crit to add condition.. that is tactics and depth.. i've never seen a game other than gw2 where u can add a skill by adding a rune to a wpn

    can say that you are "hating" now?  because like me,  you also now say it lacks depth.

    it wasn't ur statement itself.. that would be called hating.... i was refering to the way you went about it...  no discussion at all.. ppl say the forums are for discussion and everyone has a right to their opinion... i'm all for that.. but when you say.. this sucks.. or no depth and leave.. ur not really discussing the game or its mechanics... its more like criticism for criticism's sake.

    well you didn't read my initial post and are now putting words in my mouth.  i never said "this sucks".  i stated how it's a percieved depth.  and how it was just traditional combat aside from combo fields and movement.  that was all i had to say about it.  as it was pretty self explanitory i didn't feel the need to write more about it.

    I think the prostitute mod corrupted your game files man. -elhefen

  • Neo_LibertyNeo_Liberty Lufkin, TXPosts: 429Member Uncommon
    Orr is pretty rough... i keep getting my but spanked.. before orr i could do events by myself..albeit the fact they were minor ones... but in orr.. i just got spanked.

    image
  • CalerxesCalerxes LondonPosts: 1,630Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by kadepsyson

    Came into this thread expecting it to be a joke about underwater fighting.

     

    And you came away a wiser man for your curiosity I'm sure image.

    This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by muffins89
    Originally posted by Neo_Liberty
    Originally posted by Calerxes
    Originally posted by Neo_Liberty
    Originally posted by Mardukk

    I really like GW2's combat and it is definitely the highlight of the game.  I figured that things would get even more difficult as I leveled up but I'm finding it actually getting easier (max toon is 65 at this time).  I'm at the point now that I don't even have to dodge much anymore if it's only one or two mobs.  Hell, I can watch TV and click skills if I'm feeling lazy.  This is all PvE talk of course.

    Probably the most unique thing GW2 brought to the genre are combo fields.  I think the combo fields are a bit of brilliance that really add a great deal to combat.

     

    I just wish there was more to the game other than combat.  

    I understand your sentiment, but honestly... I've played a lot of games and not many can compare. I don't understand the need to criticize every aspect of every game.. either u enjoy the game or you dont. no game is perfect.

     

    Without critique we will never understand the why's and wherefore's of games and systems that don't succeed and thus cannot learn how to avoid these things in the future. And yes nothing is perfect but we must strive for perfection to evolve though in the knowledge that we shall never get there.

    Maybe my post was inappropriate.. I agree with you and Mardukk. I personally have many issues with the game. I just understand that Devs are human/they have their own goals and ideals. With those things in mind, i don't understand why people find it necessary to hate. Mardukk comment was fine.  it was understandable and it was not an attack on anyones viewpoint or the game. but the one above about the lack of depth was unnecessary. The combat is probably the best i've seen in any "real" mmo.. vindictus and mabinogi's combat is different...  but others are typically point and click.

    it lacks depth.  by lvl 12 or you have every ability.  it doesnt grow.  yes there are traits.  most of them are passive.  so a few hours into the game you are fighting mobs and using the same abilitys that you will be using 1000 hours into the game.   im not "hating" on the game,  as you say.  im stating my opinion.  the combat lack depth.  just becuae i don't agree with your view doesnt mean either of us are wrong.  we just see differently.  it also doesnt mean that im hating.

    You dont have all skills by lvl 12 - you cant unlock elites until lvl 40. Not all skills are passive/active either only signets. [mod edit]

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • Neo_LibertyNeo_Liberty Lufkin, TXPosts: 429Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by muffins89
    Originally posted by Neo_Liberty
    Originally posted by muffins89
    Originally posted by Neo_Liberty
    I can agree with that... its not deep at all.. it is fairly shallow. but that is what the combat is meant to be like. when the focus is your ability to react and pay attention.. its not surpising that the combat doesn't have much tactics... its not meant to. the tactics in gw2 is about how u build ur char to meet ur playstyle and not about the combat itself... like i said before.. if i'm using a shield and axe warrior with very little condition dmg.. i add either a bleed rune or a skill rune for fire aoe on crit to add condition.. that is tactics and depth.. i've never seen a game other than gw2 where u can add a skill by adding a rune to a wpn

    can say that you are "hating" now?  because like me,  you also now say it lacks depth.

    it wasn't ur statement itself.. that would be called hating.... i was refering to the way you went about it...  no discussion at all.. ppl say the forums are for discussion and everyone has a right to their opinion... i'm all for that.. but when you say.. this sucks.. or no depth and leave.. ur not really discussing the game or its mechanics... its more like criticism for criticism's sake.

    well you didn't read my initial post and are now putting words in my mouth.  i never said "this sucks".  i stated how it's a percieved depth.  and how it was just traditional combat aside from combo fields and movement.  that was all i had to say about it.  as it was pretty self explanitory i didn't feel the need to write more about it.

    lol... i didn't mean "you" personally.. i meant ppl in general doing those things.

     

    edit: only the first two lines were about you specifically... the point was how things are done on this forum.. and not you.

    image
  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member
    Originally posted by Neo_Liberty
    I can agree with that... its not deep at all.. it is fairly shallow. but that is what the combat is meant to be like. when the focus is your ability to react and pay attention.. its not surpising that the combat doesn't have much tactics... its not meant to. the tactics in gw2 is about how u build ur char to meet ur playstyle and not about the combat itself... like i said before.. if i'm using a shield and axe warrior with very little condition dmg.. i add either a bleed rune or a skill rune for fire aoe on crit to add condition.. that is tactics and depth.. i've never seen a game other than gw2 where u can add a skill by adding a rune to a wpn

    Sounds exactly like Enchants in WoW and many other games that add a chance based proc on hit.

  • ZuvielifyZuvielify Fremont, CAPosts: 168Member

    Interesting. I thought the complete opposite; combat was very shallow beyond the flare of dodge and weapon switching. 

     

    to each their own

  • Neo_LibertyNeo_Liberty Lufkin, TXPosts: 429Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by BadSpock
    Originally posted by Neo_Liberty
    I can agree with that... its not deep at all.. it is fairly shallow. but that is what the combat is meant to be like. when the focus is your ability to react and pay attention.. its not surpising that the combat doesn't have much tactics... its not meant to. the tactics in gw2 is about how u build ur char to meet ur playstyle and not about the combat itself... like i said before.. if i'm using a shield and axe warrior with very little condition dmg.. i add either a bleed rune or a skill rune for fire aoe on crit to add condition.. that is tactics and depth.. i've never seen a game other than gw2 where u can add a skill by adding a rune to a wpn

    Sounds exactly like Enchants in WoW and many other games that add a chance based proc on hit.

    well.. i've never played wow.. and do other games allow you to add a chance to bleed on wpns that wouldn't originally have any chance at all? were u referring to specifically chances to crit or bleed or where u referring to actuall abilities being added to wpns?

    image
  • Neo_LibertyNeo_Liberty Lufkin, TXPosts: 429Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Zuvielify

    Interesting. I thought the complete opposite; combat was very shallow beyond the flare of dodge and weapon switching. 

     

    to each their own

    what games have more depth and how?

    image
  • CalerxesCalerxes LondonPosts: 1,630Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    The combat in GW2 is a lot less faceroll and requires you to pay attention or suffer the consequences - but I wouldn't call that "depth."

    There may be more to it on the surface, but I wouldn't call it depth...

    Breadth?

    I would define "depth" when it refers to combat in a MMO as: complex interactions that happen at multiple layers.

    None of the interactions in GW2 are all that complex - most of the time they are fairly obvious, and in terms of layers it's really quite shallow.

    Once you go outside the realm of solo play and get into group play is where GW2 - IMO - really falls apart.

     

     

    So what layers can you add to combat in an MMO?

    This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

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