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Why PVP scares some people?

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  • NikopolNikopol Member UncommonPosts: 626

    OP; to me, it's the other way around. I don't care for organized PVP systems like battlegrounds or even RvR, but I like open world PVP. Without any systems, or maybe even incentivization. And I'm primarily a PVE player.

    To me, PVP should not be something that's a goal but something that just happens. Something that pisses you off, keeps you from accomplishing some other thing. A hindrance you should overcome. You're going for a resource, some enemy player is going for the same resource, you duke it out. You want to go into a dungeon, and some enemy players are there and want the place for themselves, you duke it out.

    That's the only way PVP can be - to use a popular phrase around here - "meaningful" to me, because it's all part of the te?ture then. Part of the overall progress. Other players become obstacles to your goal, which makes said accomplishment feel more fulfilling.

    So, how about PVP for PVP's sake? Doesn't work for me. All the PVP systems make the PVP feel somewhat phony. I never get that sense of purpose. I like having goals that reach far and wide and have to do with the open game world mechanics - be it fishing a special item, mining some hot ore, running a good transport route or whatever. Organized PVP, especially as it is in modern games, feels isolated to me. Any system you bring in, you limit what PVP can mean.

    EVE is probably the one game where even "PVP for PVP's sake" ends up more than PVP.  Or rather, everything ends up one form of PVP or another. :)

  • ShakyMoShakyMo Member CommonPosts: 7,207
    Nari
    You just described diablo3 a non mmo.
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by TheIdealist
    Open world pvp is the best thing ever made for mmorpg's! Without open world pvp it's a little bit like a singleplayer game...

    How is it a single players game when:

    - you trade with others on AH?

    - you group with others in dungeons?

    - you show off your gear to others?

    You don't need pvp at all for a MMORPG.

    Since the only manner of interaction in most video games is to kill the other person, I can kind of understand why some people would have no idea that there are other possible ways for it to happen. They've probably never been exposed to it.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Nari
    You just described diablo3 a non mmo.

    it is not  a MMO .. why would it be a MMO? It does have a similar play style compared to many MMOs, and has a AH, but it has no world at all.

  • echolynfanecholynfan Member UncommonPosts: 681

    I agree with the OP but my short response is: People who avoid PVP do not like the unpredictability of playing against a "real" person - which is much harder than learning new dance steps in dungeons and raids. Also - many die hard PVEers like the "working together" aspect of raiding and feel that PVP is lacking in that area.

    I LOVE PVP and find PVE boring as hell - just waiting for Darkfall 2.0...yeah baby yeah!

    Currently playing SWTOR and it's MUCH better than it was at launch.

  • DrakynnDrakynn Member Posts: 2,030

    Ah the usual arrogance rears it's ugly head.Whislt I enjoy both aspects of MMORPGs PvE and PvP I don't think I have the right to enforce my preferences on everyone else.SOme peopel play games to chill out and ghave fun and so don't enjoy PvP for whatever reason.That is their right and it's the height of arrogance to belittle them for it and force your preferences on them.

    I would say the same thing of hardcroe PvEr's saying that all PvPers are just gloryhounds who prefer griefing instead of working with others for a common goal.

  • phantomghostphantomghost Member UncommonPosts: 738

    I think PvP turns many away for many reasons.

     

    First, I believe a lot of people lack confidence in themselves to compete in PvP.  Many do not realize that they will become better with practice.  Many high end PvE players want to jump into PvP and be the best, but do not realize that there is a whole new aspect involved, and that is an unpredictable enemy.  You can fight the same person over and over, and never have the same (AI if you will) . 

    Second, I believe people look at PvP games to only strictly revolve around PvP; However in reality the focus may be PvP but there are many other activities to enjoy, PvP is  just sometheing that may potentially occur while you enjoy other events.  It makes the game more thrilling to me.  It can be annoying when you lose a few hours of work because you get killed, but next time you will bank more often, or you will roam with a larger group of people.  PvP to me promotes grouping which has lost its value with the questing solo MMO rpgs that have come about.

    Finally, I think people view PvP as a gankfest full of griefers.  When in reality griefers are actually the minority in these games.  It is just the fact that new players are afraid to socialize with other new players to take on the griefers.  If you really think about it, the griefers typically pick on new players, because they think its cool but in reality it is simply because they cannot compete with experienced players.

     


  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by phantomghost

    Finally, I think people view PvP as a gankfest full of griefers.  When in reality griefers are actually the minority in these games.  It is just the fact that new players are afraid to socialize with other new players to take on the griefers.  If you really think about it, the griefers typically pick on new players, because they think its cool but in reality it is simply because they cannot compete with experienced players.

     

    Not in instanced pvp. The point is that you control what you want to play. OWpvp loses taht control. In an arena, i know what i am getting into.

    If i just want to do my auction, why would i want to subject to pvp which may interrupt that?

  • OgreRaperOgreRaper Member Posts: 376

    I was scared of PvP when I first started playing MMO's (Lineage 1 beta in 1999) because... well, I was bad at it. Getting wrecked by other players bruised my ego image 

     

    Over the years though, PvP has become my favorite thing. PvE cannot compare to the excitement of facing another human.

  • phantomghostphantomghost Member UncommonPosts: 738
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by phantomghost

    Finally, I think people view PvP as a gankfest full of griefers.  When in reality griefers are actually the minority in these games.  It is just the fact that new players are afraid to socialize with other new players to take on the griefers.  If you really think about it, the griefers typically pick on new players, because they think its cool but in reality it is simply because they cannot compete with experienced players.

     

    Not in instanced pvp. The point is that you control what you want to play. OWpvp loses taht control. In an arena, i know what i am getting into.

    If i just want to do my auction, why would i want to subject to pvp which may interrupt that?

    Why limit yourself to one aspect of the game. 

     

    If you want to strictly do your "auction" you can.  Stay in one town, where you are safe.  PvE games also have creatures that spawn that can kill you when you run. 

     

    Open world pvp just means you need to be more careful.  To me it makes it more fun.  If you want to get rich in the game through the market, you may need to take risks to do so.  What is not fun to me is knowing any action I take will not have repurcussions (unless I decide to get myself banned). 

     


  • ReklawReklaw Member UncommonPosts: 6,495

    What about gamers like me who enjoy and play PVP allot in other genre of games, be it FPS, RTS type of games?

    I don't care much for PVP in MMORPG, though occasionally I enjoy the thrill from either the hunt or the being hunted in a MMORPG and to me the reward is the fight, the win or perhaps even when loosing, I don't care about full loot or rewards or rankings, I just care that when I PVP it contains challenge, at some point fairness (don't see why that lvl 50 warrior wants to duel me at lvl 10) and overall if it's fun.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by phantomghost
     

    Why limit yourself to one aspect of the game. 

     

    If you want to strictly do your "auction" you can.  Stay in one town, where you are safe.  PvE games also have creatures that spawn that can kill you when you run. 

     

    Open world pvp just means you need to be more careful.  To me it makes it more fun.  If you want to get rich in the game through the market, you may need to take risks to do so.  What is not fun to me is knowing any action I take will not have repurcussions (unless I decide to get myself banned). 

     

    I don't. I play PS2 too .. which is OWpvp only.

    But .. it is LESS fun for me if i need to be more careful only if i want to mine. Thus, i don't want owpvp .. becuase it is annoying .. not that i cannot be careful .. in my pve game.

    Fun is subjective. Obviously what is fun for you is not for me.

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Member CommonPosts: 3,675
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Maroxad  Problem is however, that a lot of games have PvP that is downright terribly executed,
     

    This is probably the biggest reason that most PvE gamers avoid PvP in MMOs.

     

     

    I avoid it because I can't stand PvP at all.  I'm not afraid of it, I'm just not interested in it.  I have no interest in the way PvP destroys the game experience I want.  If I'm going to play a game with other people, I'd rather have those people on my side against the world instead of having to watch my back for the moron who wants to stick a knife in it.  It's the same reason why I play FPS but I never, ever, ever under any circumstances play them multiplayer.

    It's just not fun.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Reading the last round of posts from PVPers, the thing I am finding scary is how many there are here that aren't able to understand playstyles outside of their own.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • SiveriaSiveria Member UncommonPosts: 1,416
    Originally posted by lizardbones

    Are you referring to PvP in general, or OWPvP/FFAPvP? There are many people who are fine with PvP, just not with open world PvP, free for all PvP or full loot PvP. It's not PvP that turns them off, it's specific implementations of PvP.

    I am fine with open world and ffa pvp, but what I won't bother with is pvp where you can be looted, Battlestar galatica onkline has a rather unique system, when you die in a pvp death, your killer gets loot, however its the same loot he would get off npc's just in greater numbers, your ship loses none of its items. This way pvp is rewarding in a sense, but it also doesn't have any real negative effects on the player that was killed, well other than the costs to repair your ship, which actually get painful if your in a fully upgraded lineship-class vessel. The first DF died because it was a full looting greif/gank fest, high levels would gank new players, and take their worthless stuff for spite, which after this happens a few times, said new player just gets sick of it and cancels. DF:UW has some newbie protection but its not really protection cuz the real newbei zone will just be moved to the next zone where the same stuff will take place. The other problem in general is the immaturity of mmorpg players these days, they can't really play a ffa game like they used to be played there are too many immature players out there. You know the ones who will gank people who cannot put up a fight, but they run like pussies with their tail between their legs the second anyone who can put up a fight shows.

     

    The other problem with ow/ffa pvp games is if your not in the first inital wave of players your bascally screwed, Especally in darkfall where it uses a more elder scrolls type of leveling where skills raise by being used. You will always be behind till the ones miles ahead of you cap, and once they cap, they will be there ganking the lower skilled people for fun since the game offers nothing to do really. In reality its not that people are scared of ow/ffa pvp-type games, its just they can't be bothered to deal with the annoyence of that kind of playstyle. Its why daoc did it best, all major pvp takes place in BG's or in the frontier which is a huge zone that all 3 factions can access. While in your home factions places your safe. People just dislike forced pvp thats all it is really. It does get rather stressfull playing a game with open world pvp because your always paranoid that someone is going to kill you, creates a semi-stressful envirnment. I used to hate rising force online due to this, outside of your main citys zone its open pvp vs the other 2 factions so you always had to watch your back. Dying just cost u some pvp points, and the time to run back but its still annoying when your deep in a zone and have to run back lol.

    If a game like DF:UW is going to survive it needs to move all the open world pvp to one zone, so therefor it becomes a choice insted of a requirement, while DF fans may disaggre with this, look at most of the other ffa pvp mmo's. They all die in less than 6 months due to lack of new players to replace the older ones who get bored. I was thinking of givign df:UW a try but, meh, I dunno, it'll prob be dead in 3 months like it predecessor was. Not sure i wanna buy a mmo that is doomed to die soon after release.

    Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:

    A. Proven right (if something bad happens)

    or

    B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)

    Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Reading the last round of posts from PVPers, the thing I am finding scary is how many there are here that aren't able to understnad playstyles outside of their own.

    A lot of people here are fairly close minded, and only like sandbox open world pvp, and can't see other play style.

    But it is ok. It is not like devs only cater to them. There are plenty of choices from owpvp only game (PS2), to MOBA, to instanced pvp games, to no pvp games.

    So it is all good.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Siveria

    If a game like DF:UW is going to survive it needs to move all the open world pvp to one zone, so therefor it becomes a choice insted of a requirement, while DF fans may disaggre with this, look at most of the other ffa pvp mmo's. They all die in less than 6 months due to lack of new players to replace the older ones who get bored. I was thinking of givign df:UW a try but, meh, I dunno, it'll prob be dead in 3 months like it predecessor was. Not sure i wanna buy a mmo that is doomed to die soon after release.

    That is the beauty of the free market. People can scream about that they want in forums, but all boils down to players voting with their wallets.

     

  • VanillateaVanillatea Member Posts: 80
    Some people enjoy challenging other players. Others enjoy cooperating. Neither play-style is wrong.

    That said, I'm not really into PVP but if I had to choose what type it'd be open world. Group vs Group can be fun too. Dueling is just annoying.
  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Reading the last round of posts from PVPers, the thing I am finding scary is how many there are here that aren't able to understand playstyles outside of their own.

    Pretty much a given. How often do we see fans of specific games that just don't get games that answer the same design problems differently?

    It's less common here than on game-centric message boards, actually.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • picommanderpicommander Member UncommonPosts: 256
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    That is the beauty of the free market. People can scream about that they want in forums, but all boils down to players voting with their wallets.

     

    Aah now we come to the point: wallets, LoL. Make sure you've read this thread then come back and tell us all about the glory about PS2: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/370814/page/1

  • VidirVidir Member UncommonPosts: 963
    Originally posted by WhiteLantern

    I'm not against PvP. I certainly am not "scared" of it (love how people use the word scared for people who don't like things, but i digress).

    However, I'm what you would call a "terribad", so I avoid PvP for the most part.

     Agreed, I buy and play games for the content in it and not for some pvp fight wich are better in real pvp games like battlefield.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by picommander
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    That is the beauty of the free market. People can scream about that they want in forums, but all boils down to players voting with their wallets.

    Aah now we come to the point: wallets, LoL. Make sure you've read this thread then come back and tell us all about the glory about PS2: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/370814/page/1

    It went over his head, Narius. :(

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • VendettaDFAVendettaDFA Member Posts: 72
    Originally posted by maccarthur2004

    My first mmos played (UO and L2) had open PVP and it was regarded as essential part of the enviroment, indispensable to the social, political and economic dynamics of the virtual world. People in almost totality did all the other things provided by the server (pve, craft, etc) preparing to pvp in search of resources, domains, ownerships of castles/fortress/territorys, glory, respect, rivalry, revenge, fun and etc.

    I only made contact with people that hate PVP after joining WoW and reading foruns. This was a novelty to me and let me very intrigued and curious about the reasons of the people that avoid PVP. Reading opinions and various texts in the internet, i saw that this population "pvp-hater" can be subdivided in 2 categories: people that likes or is indiferent to pvp itself, but hates the "free pvp" ("open world FFA pvp") and people that are truly scared of any type of pvp, even the structured. I came to a conclusion about the ultimate (or primary) causes that make PVP be disliked by some  people:

     

    1- PVE characters stays in certain spots waiting to be approached, while players can come to you.

     

           Keeping all the other factors equal, is this the main "annoyance" of the pvp to much people. If the monsters stayed wandering the world, invading cities, aproaching players while they are occupied, distracted, no prepared or no "in mood" to fight, this "annoyance" would be regarded as a normal thing and pvp would be less loathed by these people. These monster and other AI NPC attacks would be considered "legitimates" and source of thrill, adrenaline and adventure, challenging the players in strive to survive, dodging or fighting the threats. But the same, if made by human-controled characters, is (consciously or no) regarded as "illegitimate", "desnecessary", "harassment", etc

    But in 99,9% of  today mmos, the PVE characters stay stopped in specific spots waiting to be slaughtered like sheeps in the pasture (see item 2).

    This item explains the complains about "balance", zerg and trans-level kill too: PVE characters can too be "overpowered", in greater number or higher lv, but they stay in their spots, allowing the players approach them only if in advantageous conditions.

     

     

    2- Human-controled characters is much more harder to defeat in 99% of the time.

     

    As the AI tecnology is still far away from the capacity of a actual human brain, the human-controled characters, in equal conditions, will be more harder to defeat and unpredictable. To defeat a human-controled player requires a minimum of training, attention and motor coordination from the players, ie, skill and mental work, which not everyone is willling to do or have. Some people (i dont know if the majority or no) wanna play a mmo to just  "relax" and do unchallenging things as pastime, like knitting.

    If the AI controlled characters had the same complex fighting behavior and tactics of the humans, the pvp would be less hated by these people too, since there wouldn't much difference.

     PVE characters can only become "hard" with gigantic increase in their stats, but still are predictable like a bull in the arena and can be easily beaten by a group of players whose only "challenge" is to form and keep a group able to memorize a handful of "movements". 

     

    3- In most mmos, PVE offfers more guaranteed rewards.

     

    This is the main reason to much people. In 99% of the mmos, the PVE offers game rewards in a regular and guaranteed way, while PVP dont, or, if it offers, is at a high risk that sometimes dont compensates. Many mmos fails in create a functional risk-reward system  to the pvp, and ends up not attracting the population that dont pvp for fun, but could happily (?) pvp if the potential reward is tempting. These mmos with bad risk-reward systems makes the pvp be practiced only by the people that have fun in doing it regardless of the "reward".

    The sandboxes mmos almost always creates a good risk-reward system, since the players competes by countless things in the open world.

     

     

    In summary: pvp requires more work, attention and skill to be handled (either fighting, fleeing, dodging or avoiding) and not always gives valuable rewards to tempt the people turned away by these requirements.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

        

     

    Sorry you overlooked one big reason. This is why I don't participate in forced PvP games of any sort and especially mmofps. HACKING SCUMBUCKETS.  If you place players in a situation where beating another person is a priority, they will cheat- cheat - and cheat some more.  I stopped playing CS back when it was in its infancy because a bunch of wallhacking honorless punks ruined the game.  To this day winning at any cost seems more important to the epeen generation than playing on a level ground.

  • killion81killion81 Member UncommonPosts: 995

    Easiest way to explain is through analogy.  If I decide I want to play golf for a few hours and I get out to the course, am having a good time and suddenly someone runs up to me a forces me to play tennis, I'm not having fun anymore.  I don't want to play tennis.  If I did want to play tennis, I would go to the tennis courts, not the golf course.

     

    For those that may need an explanation, PvE and PvP are different games.  It's acknowledged within the OP that they are fundamently different.  I equate golf to PvE, as it can be a single player game or a team based game.  You can compare score, but you are never really directly influencing the gameplay of anyone else.  Tennis is PvP because you are directly competing with someone and your actions are chosen to cause the opponent to lose.  If it was possible to be forced to play tennis while playing golf, I imagine golf would be a much less popular sport.

     

    Just because someone doesn't want to play your game does not make you better than them.  It does not make them scared of you or your game.  It does not make you hardcore.  It does not make them a carebear.  If you want to be "hardcore" and do something competitive that people may be afraid of doing or may make people afraid of you, take up competitive fighting of some sort.  Video games are not the correct venue for you to accomplish what you seem to hope to accomplish.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by killion81

    Just because someone doesn't want to play your game does not make you better than them.  It does not make them scared of you or your game.  It does not make you hardcore.  It does not make them a carebear.  If you want to be "hardcore" and do something competitive that people may be afraid of doing or may make people afraid of you, take up competitive fighting of some sort.  Video games are not the correct venue for you to accomplish what you seem to hope to accomplish.

    Very well said. Some just don't understand people like different things.

    Arena pvp, no pvp, MOBA .. all valid game choices. The fact that they exist in a free market shows that. It is silly to force your own brand of pvp on others.

This discussion has been closed.