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Why PVP scares some people?

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  • RandomDownRandomDown Member UncommonPosts: 145
    Originally posted by maccarthur2004

     ...

    2- Human-controled characters is much more harder to defeat in 99% of the time.

     

    As the AI tecnology is still far away from the capacity of a actual human brain, the human-controled characters, in equal conditions, will be more harder to defeat and unpredictable. To defeat a human-controled player requires a minimum of training, attention and motor coordination from the players, ie, skill and mental work, which not everyone is willling to do or have.

    If the AI controlled characters had the same complex fighting behavior and tactics of the humans, the pvp would be less hated by these people too, since there wouldn't much difference.

     PVE characters can only become "hard" with gigantic increase in their stats, but still are predictable like a bull in the arena and can be easily beaten by a group of players whose only "challenge" is to form and keep a group able to memorize a handful of "movements". 

     

    PVPers are by no means unpredictable. You can get a very rough and generally right prediction of their build and therefore behavior by their gearsets or in some cases buffs. Like in SWTOR or some games where the stance is on the buff bar. Easy to tell what moves they are built around. Unless you get perfect balance and make every possible build perform equally, then no it will be predictable. Its the same situation you get from mobs and raid bosses. Their animations or channel bars if they are shown or the various rotations used by players are going to be same and you can avoid or deal with them. Rarely is their behavior unpredictable. PvPers are just as predictable as a bull in an arena because all they do is "memorize a handful of "movements"" and base their builds around that.

  • demongoatdemongoat Member UncommonPosts: 68

    i personally don't like pvp because most forms of pvp are crap.  poorly designed, poorly implemented and built in a way that makes the devs concentrate on it because pvp players whine about how they get beaten all the time.

    if i want to kill other players, i'd play counterstrike or some other fps, at least they are designed and balanced around pvp, most mmos aren't.

     

    other than the crappiness of pvp in most mmos, i find the level of elitist BS spewed by pvpers to turn me off.  the OP is a good example of this.  it's a video game bro, you aren't some pvp ubermensch looking down on us unwashed pve players, you are like the rest of us; some nerd playing a video game.  

    i guess this is just another example of someone using an irrelevant passtime as a measure of their personal self-worth. 

     

    lol, people afraid of pvp? no.

    the closest thing i might be afraid of in a video game is failing to play at some 12 year-olds impossible standard in dota, mostly because they report you for it, and pretty much everything else.  i don't like the idea of being banned from something i bought simply because some child doesn't like how i play, so i don't play those types of games.

     

    to sum this up, mmos are crap for pvp, i'd rather stick my testicles in a belt-sander than endure the stupidity found in the majority of mmo pvp.

     

  • MardukkMardukk Member RarePosts: 2,222
    Originally posted by SvendSvin
    Originally posted by Torik
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Until such a time when PvPers are having their PvP experience ruined by someone baking bread at them, the gamers who engage primarily in FFA PVP will maintain a general disconnect with the rest of the playerbase's perspective on how different playstyles impact gameplay.

     

    I can imagine that now.  Two groups of players are having an epic PvP battle when all of a sudden a baker jumps out of nowhere, throws his food products at teh combatants and all of a sudden all of the PvP are sittign around drinking tea and eating crumpets.

    LOL, i like that idea.. Diehard PVP game, where the PVE players can come along and force everyone else to PVE.. And perhaps even roleplay!! :D

    Posts of the week! hahaha!

  • xDracxDrac Member UncommonPosts: 201
    Why is there a seperation between PvE and PvP servers anyway? Games should just have both by default goddammit. In real life your life can end anytime too. There's murderers and whatnot.

    Web & Graphic Design - www.xdrac.com

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by xDrac
    Why is there a seperation between PvE and PvP servers anyway? Games should just have both by default goddammit. In real life your life can end anytime too. There's murderers and whatnot.

    I hate to break it to you .. but games are not real life, they are entertainment products.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo Member CommonPosts: 7,207
    Some people just really really really don't like dieing, so not only do they form a strong anti pvp stance, they also campaign to make pve piss easy and use thing like gear score so they can run dungeons with little fear if failure.

    It's a general thing of having to always win in a game and not being able to take any failure.
  • RobsolfRobsolf Member RarePosts: 4,607
    Originally posted by dopplemmo
    Originally posted by maccarthur2004 Reading opinions and various texts in the internet, i saw that this population "pvp-hater" can be subdivided in 2 categories: people that likes or is indiferent to pvp itself, but hates the "free pvp" ("open world FFA pvp") and people that are truly scared of any type of pvp, even the structured.

     

    Your post starts on the wrong foot, and thus will likely lead nowhere interesting. You insinuate that there are 3 basic attitudes of players toward PVP: -like it -indifferent -scared by it. If you had really wanted to make three mutually exclusive states, the third category would have read: dislike it But no, they are sssscccaaaaarrrreeddd....... What would you say if I described the 3 basic attitudes of players toward PVE: -like it -indifferent -scared by it.

    This right here.

    Could have been a good discussion, but the OP had to pull out his (most assuredly huge) Epeen by assuming non-PvP'ers are afff-f-f-f-f-f-f-fraaaaaaid!!!  False start called on the first play.

    There are plenty of reasons to not like PvP, and seeing as how nothing in PvP causes any RL pain or suffering, there's no reason to think it's fear-driven.

    For example, I don't like most forms of PvP for the same reason that I don't like games that tend to support griefing practices by players(Eve being my only and inexplicable exception).  I don't like that I could be wanting to get from point A to point B one days and constantly be ganked halfway by a player twice my level; something that frequently occurred to me in WoW.

    If you were driving along in RL one day and you kept encountering some situation which made you go back to point A, would you be:

    A.  Sss-s-s-s-s-s-s-scarrrrr-r-r-red?

    or

    B.  Pissed?

    Nobody plays games that piss them off.

     

     

     

  • TorikTorik Member UncommonPosts: 2,342
    Originally posted by xDrac
    Why is there a seperation between PvE and PvP servers anyway? Games should just have both by default goddammit. In real life your life can end anytime too. There's murderers and whatnot.

    So you are advocating full on permadeath?  That's the only way a game character life can end.  In real life we also put murderers in jail for the rest of their life.  Would you be fine with having your character spend the next 20 years (RL time) locked away while you are contractually required to keep on paying your subscription?

    Standard MMORPG PvP is as far removed from Real Life as a Looney Toones cartoon. 

  • xDracxDrac Member UncommonPosts: 201

    No, you take it way too seriously.

    But we can attack eachother too. There is no invisible rule prohibiting this.

    And with open world PvP things will balance themselves out. 

    I can only repeat it over and over again. Lineage II had a brilliant OWPVP system.

    If you pk'd (which was risky) you sometimes got what you deserved. Specially when PKing lowbies. Cause it was hard as hell to work off your karma.

    Web & Graphic Design - www.xdrac.com

  • defector1968defector1968 Member UncommonPosts: 469

    Best answer is  ==>  in all MMOs there is class unbalance

    FYI in PVP even the looser team wins something, in PVE not

    and the people that dont do PVP they dont scare, they find it boring

    fan of SWG, XCOM, Defiance, Global Agenda, Need For Speed, all Star Wars single player games. And waiting the darn STAR CITIZEN
  • yllisyllis Member UncommonPosts: 72

    I used to be a "I hate pvp person" and now I enjoy it. When I look back at why I hated it, I think it was because open PvP is rarely fair, it's usually one person jumps the other, beats them into paste before they can react and taunts them for it. 

     

    In open world PvP I doubt too many people have ever mutually met for combat and went toe to toe both allowing the other to get ready, its usually an aggressor who waits until a win is most likely and then taking it by surprise. 

     

    I know there are exceptions, but one time of "Im about to kill this quest boss and get my loot... hey who is that... erk!  Nooooo!" stings for a long long time for most gamers.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Some people just really really really don't like dieing, so not only do they form a strong anti pvp stance, they also campaign to make pve piss easy and use thing like gear score so they can run dungeons with little fear if failure.

    It's a general thing of having to always win in a game and not being able to take any failure.

    My stance is that whatever people prefer is fine in an entertainment product. After all, it is about enjoyment. It is totally understanding why someone would enjoy 100% winning, and what to use gearscore to help with that (and to show off).

    The fact that gearscore exist, and people are allowed to try the same boss again and again after wipes, is a pretty good indication that the market is working, and responding to that demand.

  • maccarthur2004maccarthur2004 Member UncommonPosts: 511

    I will answer the posts from page 8 ahead, but before that i will discuss something about the flaws of pvp and pve.

     

    Much has already been spoken about the flaws and crap things from the pvp. I really dont have much disagreement with the major part of the claims, but i found VERY strange nobody (until now) speak of the flaws and crap things from the pve and apply to it the same critics applied to the pvp. I will try now do that task. I advance that the SAME critics made to the pvp are applicable to the pve in a WORST degree.

     

    Above all: AI controled characters are VERY VERY VERY dumb and do very idiot things while fighting or in relation with their long term survival. A little list:

     

     - They rush to the player even when in very inferior condition (lv, stats) instead of fleeing, stealth or summon help from others AI characters. They exposes themselves in "open chest" to stronger or outnumbered players.

    - They dont flee when are clearly losing the fight, or when the player is clearly easy killing other mobs near.

    - If a player attacks a group of mobs (ex: a village of trolls), is very common a mob fight alone with the player in the linesight of others and no be helped, or no yell for help. They could easily call the entire village to rush to the player.

    - When fighting a group of players, AI characters attacks the tankers first instead of the healers or dps.

    - AI characters "respawn" in a area even when there is stronger or outnumbered players around. They dont wait the players go away to reappear.

    - Irrational AI characters (Ex: animals) dont display the typical "fight or flee" behavior, fighting small players (lower lv) and fleeing big players (high lv). Instead they always fight and some only flee when almost dead.

    - AI characters, when cornered by stronger players, dont commit suicide to avoid the player get some rewards (a "political" tactic to dissuade future attacks).

    - AI characters constantly chased by stronger players dont migrate to others locations.

    - AI characters dont do organized raids againts players and dont attack out of their spots.

    - AI characters dont loot itens or "xp" from the players, getting stronger as surviving more fights or killing more players.

    -AI characters dont have even 10% of the amount of "skills" that a player can have.

    - AI characters, while fighting, dont move around, dodge, kite and retreat like the players. They stay "planted" in only one position in most cases.

    -AI characters dont "ally" or group with other AI characters present in the mmo or even with other players.

     

    Etc Etc Etc.

     

    So, the PVE fight is far more "unbalanced" and crap than the pvp (which usually is crap too...imagine).

    If the same flaws from the pvp fight are present in pve in very worst degree, so i necessarily come to the conclusion that isn't that flaws the main cause of the distaste of some people to the pvp, but the real possibility of to lose, to die or have much work.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     



  • maplestonemaplestone Member UncommonPosts: 3,099
    Originally posted by maccarthur2004

    So, the PVE fight is far more "unbalanced" and crap than the pvp (which usually is crap too...imagine).

    The assumption you are making is that people are seeking balance.  What if they are seeking texture, atmosphere and fantasy  rather than e-sport?

    ( obviously, there are some people who do enjoy and are motivated by PvP environments and competitive environments.  There will also always be conflcts where different playstyles have difficulty coexisting on the same map.  There is no one perfect solution as to how to resolve all these sorts of conflicts of agendas.  The question is whether it is worth the hassle and conflict to attempt to stir PvP and non-PvP players into the same pot and arguements like this send to confirm my opinion that it is not )

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Member CommonPosts: 3,675
    Originally posted by CalmOceans

    I don't think it has anything to do with anyone being scared of PVP, I never heard anyone ever say that, many hate PVP yes.

     

    I don't like PVP because:

    -the gameplay of PVP is 9 out of 10 time really really bad

    -the PVP community is usually incredibly rude

    -I have no time to deal with griefing little kids in an MMO

    -There is never cooperation in PVP games, it's always one person or a handful of peope button mashing, no organised raids

    -Many PVP players cry on the forum that classes aren't balanced because they get killed one-on-one, classes are not supposed to be balanced in PVE games that's what teamwork is for

    -etc etc etc

    Yup, the same goes for me.  I find, almost without exception, that active PvPers are total douchebags, especially in open-PVP games.  Even for the ones where it's totally consentual, I've had PvPers standing there yelling at random passersby, people who have their PvP flags off "you're a fucking pussy, come fight me!"

    PvPers are assholes.  I don't want to play with assholes. 

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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  • maccarthur2004maccarthur2004 Member UncommonPosts: 511
    As said before, WoW is one of the worst mmos regading the easiness to gank. I think this fact is partly responsible for the extreme skepticism of some people about the possibility of effectively control gank in a mmo with free pvp.



  • maccarthur2004maccarthur2004 Member UncommonPosts: 511
    Originally posted by maplestone
    Originally posted by maccarthur2004

    So, the PVE fight is far more "unbalanced" and crap than the pvp (which usually is crap too...imagine).

    The assumption you are making is that people are seeking balance.  What if they are seeking texture, atmosphere and fantasy  rather than e-sport?

    I was directing that post only to the people that say to avoid pvp only because balance or fairness issues.



  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by maplestone
    Originally posted by maccarthur2004

    So, the PVE fight is far more "unbalanced" and crap than the pvp (which usually is crap too...imagine).

    The assumption you are making is that people are seeking balance.  What if they are seeking texture, atmosphere and fantasy  rather than e-sport?

    Given how popular is e-sport (see the huge success of LOL), i doubt many are seeking something else. If they are, they can play games like PS2 where pvp is everywhere.

    The point is that different players want different gameplay. It is a mistake to ignore e-sports, which is obviously popular.

  • HrimnirHrimnir Member RarePosts: 2,415
    Originally posted by maccarthur2004

    My first mmos played (UO and L2) had open PVP and it was regarded as essential part of the enviroment, indispensable to the social, political and economic dynamics of the virtual world. People in almost totality did all the other things provided by the server (pve, craft, etc) preparing to pvp in search of resources, domains, ownerships of castles/fortress/territorys, glory, respect, rivalry, revenge, fun and etc.

    I only made contact with people that hate PVP after joining WoW and reading foruns. This was a novelty to me and let me very intrigued and curious about the reasons of the people that avoid PVP. Reading opinions and various texts in the internet, i saw that this population "pvp-hater" can be subdivided in 2 categories: people that likes or is indiferent to pvp itself, but hates the "free pvp" ("open world FFA pvp") and people that are truly scared of any type of pvp, even the structured. I came to a conclusion about the ultimate (or primary) causes that make PVP be disliked by some  people:

     

    1- PVE characters stays in certain spots waiting to be approached, while players can come to you.

     

           Keeping all the other factors equal, is this the main "annoyance" of the pvp to much people. If the monsters stayed wandering the world, invading cities, aproaching players while they are occupied, distracted, no prepared or no "in mood" to fight, this "annoyance" would be regarded as a normal thing and pvp would be less loathed by these people. These monster and other AI NPC attacks would be considered "legitimates" and source of thrill, adrenaline and adventure, challenging the players in strive to survive, dodging or fighting the threats. But the same, if made by human-controled characters, is (consciously or no) regarded as "illegitimate", "desnecessary", "harassment", etc

    But in 99,9% of  today mmos, the PVE characters stay stopped in specific spots waiting to be slaughtered like sheeps in the pasture (see item 2).

    This item explains the complains about "balance", zerg and trans-level kill too: PVE characters can too be "overpowered", in greater number or higher lv, but they stay in their spots, allowing the players approach them only if in advantageous conditions.

     

     

    2- Human-controled characters is much more harder to defeat in 99% of the time.

     

    As the AI tecnology is still far away from the capacity of a actual human brain, the human-controled characters, in equal conditions, will be more harder to defeat and unpredictable. To defeat a human-controled player requires a minimum of training, attention and motor coordination from the players, ie, skill and mental work, which not everyone is willling to do or have. Some people (i dont know if the majority or no) wanna play a mmo to just  "relax" and do unchallenging things as pastime, like knitting.

    If the AI controlled characters had the same complex fighting behavior and tactics of the humans, the pvp would be less hated by these people too, since there wouldn't much difference.

     PVE characters can only become "hard" with gigantic increase in their stats, but still are predictable like a bull in the arena and can be easily beaten by a group of players whose only "challenge" is to form and keep a group able to memorize a handful of "movements". 

     

    3- In most mmos, PVE offfers more guaranteed rewards.

     

    This is the main reason to much people. In 99% of the mmos, the PVE offers game rewards in a regular and guaranteed way, while PVP dont, or, if it offers, is at a high risk that sometimes dont compensates. Many mmos fails in create a functional risk-reward system  to the pvp, and ends up not attracting the population that dont pvp for fun, but could happily (?) pvp if the potential reward is tempting. These mmos with bad risk-reward systems makes the pvp be practiced only by the people that have fun in doing it regardless of the "reward".

    The sandboxes mmos almost always creates a good risk-reward system, since the players competes by countless things in the open world.

     

     

    In summary: pvp requires more work, attention and skill to be handled (either fighting, fleeing, dodging or avoiding) and not always gives valuable rewards to tempt the people turned away by these requirements.

      

    This is what people like you will never understand.  Its BECAUSE of people like you, your attitudes, and your narcissistic overinflated sense of skill, and overall chest beating BS that most people hate open world styles of PVP and PVP games.

    It has nothing to do with being "afraid".  To suggest someone is afraid of dying or playing PVP in an MMO is the height of absurdity.  The only fear we have is the fear of the massive headache that will certainly follow.

    People don't like it because its not FUN.  Most people don't think its hilarious to pwn a bunch of n00bs and drink their delicious carebear tears, and then sit around patting each other on the back for kicking some ass even though you outnumbered the other side 2:1.

    Any by the way, the hatred for PVP started long before your beloved L2.  Back in the late 90's, shortly after UO released, the developers of EverQuest went and played UO and decideed to remove any major leel of PVP because they had horrible experiences with griefers, campers and just general assholery. Thus it was born.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • maccarthur2004maccarthur2004 Member UncommonPosts: 511
    Originally posted by rojo6934
    im a PvE person, but i dont fear PvP. I like open world PvP but i strongly dislike both permadeath and Full Loot, specially if i have to pay to play the game and get ganked, full looted and / or perma dead.... i can live with getting ganked since thats the nature of the beast (open world pvp), but all i can say about the other two (permadeath and full loot) is that  my money has a value im not willing to waste with them. I do not enjoy that so i dont play those games. Even for free, i just dont enjoy those two features so i dont support them or any game that has them.

    I dont look full loot pvp with good eyes because the following reason:

    If two player, A and B, with same lv and gear, fight each other and A wins, than B will be without gear and "broken" to pvp, cant have the chance to recovery his loss looting from others, since he dont have more gear to be competitive. This system, in that way, damage the gameplay experience and the pvp enviromental challenge itself.

    To avoid that issue, there is some solutions:

    1- Gear matters little to the strenght.

    2- Gear be cheaper and easier to get.

    3- The best solution (IMO): no full loot, only partial loot, like in archeage. The player can drop some resources but no his gear, wich will keep him competitive without damage the "progression" provided by gear being expensive or hard to get.

     

     



  • jinxxed0jinxxed0 Member UncommonPosts: 841

    PVP is stressful. You have to deal with not being good eough or being made fun of etc. Theres a rush of adrenaline for most people too. Some like, others don't because gaming is usally a relaxing and comfortable activity. Not everyone is competative. And like you said, there's hardly ever any reward for PVPing so if losing makes someone feel bad and winning gets you nothing of value (bragging rights have zero value to most of us since it's a game and having skills in the game have zero value it's self) then why bother.

     

    Personally, I like to idea of open world pvp, but I'd never actively seek out pvp. I like the idea of having to defend myself and friend or even just getting away from a threat, but at the time, it can get stressful when you have the entire playbase coming after you constantly over and over. Open world pvp games need systems in place to effectively "punish" random murder. Something like jail time where the player goes to jail if caught and then has to play in that enviroment and do certain things for a certain period of time without progressing in the main game. This way, people will only kill if have to, really really want to, or think the person they're killing is really work dealing with the punishment. That way you don't have non-stop chaos. That's what most non-pvpers don't want; non-stop harrassment, trash talk, mean spiritedness etc. Because that's unfortunately what many (not all) pvpers are like. They are quick to throw insults and just all around harsh for no reason.

     

    If pvpers really want more people to pvp with them, then stop refering to people as carebears and try being nice.

  • maplestonemaplestone Member UncommonPosts: 3,099
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    It is a mistake to ignore e-sports, which is obviously popular.

    It wasn't my intent to claim publishers should ignore this market - rather I'm commenting on the limits to which you can take conflicting playstyles and put them on the same map without just creating frustration and annoyance with each other.

  • SiveriaSiveria Member UncommonPosts: 1,416
    Its probally due to the immature smacktards that infest pvp based mmo's, Full looting also turns alot of people away from it. Its why I figured darkfall UW is going to be dead in about 3 months, its infested with these immature players that find pleasure in fights with players who cannot fight back effectivly, yet these same players too too big of a bunch of chicken shits to attempt to fight anyone their own level. I dunno about you, but having some asshat taunt me after he killed/ganked me just pisses me off, thats my major issue with pvp.

    Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:

    A. Proven right (if something bad happens)

    or

    B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)

    Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!

  • maccarthur2004maccarthur2004 Member UncommonPosts: 511
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by maplestone
    Originally posted by maccarthur2004

    So, the PVE fight is far more "unbalanced" and crap than the pvp (which usually is crap too...imagine).

    The assumption you are making is that people are seeking balance.  What if they are seeking texture, atmosphere and fantasy  rather than e-sport?

    Given how popular is e-sport (see the huge success of LOL), i doubt many are seeking something else. If they are, they can play games like PS2 where pvp is everywhere.

    The point is that different players want different gameplay. It is a mistake to ignore e-sports, which is obviously popular.

    E-sports lack the political/diplomatic/social/economic aspects provided by a sandbox mmo with free pvp. They only have the tactical aspect (the fight itself), which is very good but we can have more. :)

     

     



  • Tedly224Tedly224 Member Posts: 164

    I kind of fail to understand the purpose of this thread, and I did read the original poster's first offering.

    What I was reading was something alone the lines of " I played UO as my first MMO and it had PvP as its only option for server type, and everyone accepted it and got used to it. "

    Well, that's cool and all, but when UO was brand new a friend of mine that was playing it said " hey, check this out ". I did and the game wasn't my thing. I felt the graphics were too crude and I wasn't a big fan of the Diablo style camera angle. So I took a pass on it, and many other people felt the same as I did.

    Everquest came out soon after from Sony. Huzzah, it had better graphics, different camera options, and so I felt more comfortable playing it. Surprise surprise, it was offered intentionally as a PvE centric game, which people accepted and got used to.

    So... I don't get the point of your post. You had a First Time Experience with MMO's with UO that was PvP centric. Other people had First Time Experiences with MMO's that are PvE centric. That's simple enough to understand, but you failed to get another concept as being understood when you placed "people that don't like pvp" in two different camps.

    A third kind of player likes PvP IF THE GAME IS MADE FOR PVP from the ground up. I happen to be one of those. I'm mostly "scared" of PvP in games that use character mechanics that are intended for PvE play that are altered and balanced and put through the wringer over and over by Devs when those mechanics are used for PvP. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone with that sentiment.

     

This discussion has been closed.