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Aventurine "gets it". I wish all MMO devs did.

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  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,342

    erm...didn't they open NA server just because of lag?

  • RedempRedemp Member UncommonPosts: 1,136
    Originally posted by Gdemami

    erm...didn't they open NA server just because of lag?

     It's a possibility, but they did open it and subs did spike for it. Heck I talked five or six of my buddies into joining, we all left because of core issues .. but the userbase did spike for awhile. Like every mmo before and every mmo after.

  • huskie77huskie77 Member Posts: 354
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by huskie77

    Let me clarify and simplify:

    Darkfall doesn't have instances because it doesn't need them.  In a game with 100k - 200k players at a time you need instances and multiple servers. No, you don't. You need multiple servers, but not instances. There is only ONE MMO on the market that has a single server with 300k players on it (and they don't use instances). All the other MMOs have much smaller numbers per server. Darkfall has one of the largest, 10k per server, and it doesn't use instances. DAoC in its prime didn't have instances, and didn't need them. That was never an issue with Darkfall because it is unlikely to have ever had more than 15k people at one time. Incorrect on two counts. Overall game population has NOTHING to do with whether or not a game needs instancing. 10k players logged in at once and instances were not needed.

    I said 15k. Not 10k.  Also, at those populations DF experienced massive slowdowns near large battles and busy towns. Just because the game functioned does not mean it handled it in the best manner. Please try to be reasonable on this topic while also being a fan. The two elements can coexist.

    I am not knocking the game, I loved it. I am just saying that his statement is absurd and borders on lying.

    And you obvious have no idea how games work.

    I will try to disregard your attempt at baiting. I work in the industry and have a firm grasp on game design requirements as well as network architecture. In order for a game to have acceptable performance on a wide array of hardware in high population battles there needs to be a way to control the population. If left unfettered it leads to performance slowdowns and potential server crashes. During DF's hayday it suffered this exact situation with large seige battles and there is much evidence in youtube videos as well as many of us veterans who experienced it.

    A current game that tries to handle this situation in a mature manner is Planetside 2 which has 3 continents which are instances/servers that handle the problem quite well.

    image
  • kartoolkartool Member UncommonPosts: 520
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by kartool
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Redemp
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Redemp

     I really don't understand why everyone is singing AV's praises, Because the majority of MMO veterans agree with their philosphy on instancing?

    I also question why anyone would consider AV a sucessful studio

    Because their company went from 20 devs at launch, to 60 devs now. They're in a bigger building, they opened another server, whereas most MMOs close servers after launch. They now have enough money to self publish? They're releasing a new game? You don't do that when you haven't been successful.

     You do understand the game was dead in the water, stalled out, with no information on the release of Darkfall 2010 ( ....) right up until they announced their new investors in Feb of this year? The game wasn't "dead in the water" The devs were working on a huge update, which became the new game. Which is what we're getting, for free. If the game was dead in the water, AV's staff wouldn't be increasing, thats the opposite of how business works.

     They had two servers, the EU server is now dead. No kidding, both servers have been shut down. They lacked a substantial amount of subscribers to justify opening more servers, its a niche market the same standards of success and failure do not apply here. By all metrics, the game was a success.

    There are other reasons to be happy with AV, but declaring them one of the most sucessful studios in the last eight years is grasping at straws.

    Reality must hurt you for some reason. If we look at growth, the vast majority of MMOs and MMO companies have been shrinking and CLOSING servers. AV did the opposite.

    Because they were finally letting people buy their game?

    The only time people couldn't buy the game whenever they wanted was the first week of launch. Know why? Because if all 300k people bought the game and tried to pile into a server that had a max capacity of 30k players, NOBODY would get to play, and they'd all have payed for it.

    Sounds like AV did the smart thing.

    The smart thing would have been to build a scalable system where they could add capacity quickly if necessary - not turn away customers.

  • MagiknightMagiknight Member CommonPosts: 782
    Originally posted by ste2000
    Originally posted by Schockey
    That is goodstuff! My friend and I left one of the last big titles because the instancing was so inconvenient and the load screens took away so much from immersion.

    To be honest, there are portals that get you inside the dungeon, but tecnically the dungeons are not instanced as everyone can get inside.

    Let's say AV is right in the middle an instanced and a non instanced dungeon

    Only seamless world is Vanguard  where dungeons are connected with the rest of the map with no portals

    Are you serious? If you are in the dungeon with just your party and no one else can enter it then it is most likely intsnaced. There are, or were, numerous seamless worlds, such as Everquest, FFXI, DAOC.

  • MagiknightMagiknight Member CommonPosts: 782
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by zimike

    I really shouldn't have to explain this one since it was already explained. Having to fight over a single mob for a quest is the poor game design talked about. To combat the POOR game design, devs had to create instances.

     

    If players are fighting over single mob, that is indeed an issue and poor game design.

    Yet, fixing the issue is still poor design? I think your logic fails very hard here...


    Game design you do not like does not make it a poor design.

    MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER GAME. If you want to play with 5 or 6 other people then play Starcraft II or Warcraft III or the dozens of other so called MMOs. Fighting over a single mob does not have to be a bad thing. It could be an end game thing, a mob on a timer, a mob with a random chance to appear from a place holder, a mob that appears when some other conditon has been satified, etc. All of these examples could be implemented in a peristant world. The players do not have to fight over a single mob. They could be cooporating to fight one mob.

  • thinktank001thinktank001 Member UncommonPosts: 2,144
    Originally posted by Magiknight

    Are you serious? If you are in the dungeon with just your party and no one else can enter it then it is most likely intsnaced. There are, or were, numerous seamless worlds, such as Everquest, FFXI, Anarchy Online.

     

    You need to understand that to old schoolers any portal that takes you away from the map was considered an instance.  The term has changed over time to a more restrictive definition of a " personal dungeon ", and many other terms have filled in the gaps.   

     

    i.e. DF:UW dungeons are under the map.

     

     

  • MagiknightMagiknight Member CommonPosts: 782
    Originally posted by LizardEgypt
    Anyone disagreeing with Tasos is lying to themselves. Whether you liked Darkfall or are interested in Darkfall UW, he is right. The games everyone is drooling over are no MMO diablo games. I see arguments that instancing is good on an MMO website. Go play GW2, SWTOR, or any of the other fake teleporting around the map RPGs for the shallow 2 weeks it'll last you and tell me again how much you support instancing. No player interaction, no risk/reward, just boring contrived repeatable gameplay.

    This

  • DarkcrystalDarkcrystal Member UncommonPosts: 963

    I love when people say a game is on life support when they have no clue what they are talking about,  if that was the case how would they afford a new game?? Why would someone give them money to make a new game???

     

    Most gamers think they know everything about games because they play them, funny, most people go to school for Game Design and when I listen to them, most do not have a clue and by reading this comments, I can tell they don't....

     

    Instances is good and Bad, its not a cheap fix and not a fix for  a game, some games its needed, look at games like God of WAR, if that was Open world, it would be trash.. You know why??? I bet most don't..

     

    MMo's I perfer Open World, Yes, I dislike instancing Yes, but depends on the game, Asheron call Had portals which is instance. So having them helps with lag issues as well.

     

    Having 11k in one area is not always a good thing, people also complain about lag, well guess if you want High res textures good luck having them in some Open world MMo's , why else is Darkfall have low end textures, and low poly, because the game would be lag heaven.

    So people need to understand about Poly count, texture maps etc, knowing what a DEV can use and Not use which if thye do not , can cause issue with performance of  a game.

     

    So instances is not always a Band Aid for a game..... I hate them, and I work with Game Engines, Like Hero, Unreal, UDK, Unity , Cry etc.... So to sit here and say BS like this makes me wanna cry IRL...

     

     

     

     

    PS: Portals, dungeons, etc anything loading , is a instance, no matter old or New school... I have worked on games long enough. I love when people try and argue this...

  • AnnwynAnnwyn Member UncommonPosts: 2,854

    Lot of armchair developers confusing "facts" with their opinions. Whether one prefers to implement instancing or not, is a design choice, and whether they implemented the "right" feature or not is ultimately nothing but an opinion.

    It's not that AV "gets it", and quite frankly I'd argue the opposite considering their history, but that's besides the point. They've made a design choice, and that is to not have any instances. Like it or not, it's an opinion, not an indication that one is inherently superior to the other. If opinions had that much value we'd all be killing each others in the street at the slightest insult.

     

     

    On a different topic, I wonder if Fun Hulks will be in UW.

  • MagiknightMagiknight Member CommonPosts: 782
    Originally posted by MadnessRealm

    Lot of armchair developers confusing "facts" with their opinions. Whether one prefers to implement instancing or not, is a design choice, and whether they implemented the "right" feature or not is ultimately nothing but an opinion.

    It's not that AV "gets it", and quite frankly I'd argue the opposite considering their history, but that's besides the point. They've made a design choice, and that is to not have any instances. Like it or not, it's an opinion, not an indication that one is inherently superior to the other. If opinions had that much value we'd all be killing each others in the street at the slightest insult.

     

     

    On a different topic, I wonder if Fun Hulks will be in UW.

    You have such an open mind concering other peoples opinions. What keeps your mind, which is so open, from falling out?

  • MagiknightMagiknight Member CommonPosts: 782
    Originally posted by thinktank001
    Originally posted by Magiknight

    Are you serious? If you are in the dungeon with just your party and no one else can enter it then it is most likely intsnaced. There are, or were, numerous seamless worlds, such as Everquest, FFXI, Anarchy Online.

     

    You need to understand that to old schoolers any portal that takes you away from the map was considered an instance.  The term has changed over time to a more restrictive definition of a " personal dungeon ", and many other terms have filled in the gaps.   

     

    i.e. DF:UW dungeons are under the map.

     

     So you would say that DF:UW does have instances?

     

  • William12William12 Member Posts: 680
    You want an open world non instance experience go play vanguard no game will ever capture the size of that world again at launch.
  • corpusccorpusc Member UncommonPosts: 1,341
    Originally posted by Arglebargle

    Yeah, a lot of back-patting in this thread.   'Someone agreed with me!  It must be true for all!'

     

    Instances are easier on developers,  because they solve certain problems.   Denying the problems exist does not solve them.  

     

    right.  instancing doesn't solve the problem of shoe-horning single player game design into an MMO.

    unless you consider eliminating the MMO part, and making them basically not much more than a sp a "solution".

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  • corpusccorpusc Member UncommonPosts: 1,341
    Originally posted by William12
    You want an open world non instance experience go play vanguard no game will ever capture the size of that world again at launch.

     

    ....except for Darkfall.   i don't know which is bigger, and i don't care.  they are both in a world of their own compared to launch sizes of any other obviously handcrafted MMO.

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  • corpusccorpusc Member UncommonPosts: 1,341
    Originally posted by DavisFlight
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by LizardEgypt

    Exactly. Anyone trying to take the Massive out of MMO is in the wrong genre.

    Why?  I mean, they took the "RPG" out of "MMORPG" just fine.

    Because RPG wasn't the unique part of the genre, the MM was. Taking out the MM but still calling it an MMORPG is just wrong.

     

     exactly

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  • AnnwynAnnwyn Member UncommonPosts: 2,854
    Originally posted by corpusc
    Originally posted by Arglebargle

    Yeah, a lot of back-patting in this thread.   'Someone agreed with me!  It must be true for all!'

     

    Instances are easier on developers,  because they solve certain problems.   Denying the problems exist does not solve them.  

     

    right.  instancing doesn't solve the problem of shoe-horning single player game design into an MMO.

    unless you consider eliminating the MMO part, and making them basically not much more than a sp a "solution".

    Instancing has allowed more players to access content "equally" that they might not have been able to otherwise. Back in EQ, you had groups of players camping specific dungeon areas or bosses all day long and you simply had no way of being able to access them properly. Instancing solves this issue by allowing players to play in different instances to access the same content they might otherwise not have had the chance to experience properly given the situation. Which is not to say that the system is perfect however, as it does have its flaws, but it serves its purpose quite well in PvE-oriented MMORPGs.

    As far as single-player design in an MMO, I think it actually has more to do with the seclusive nature of questing rather than instancing. In the large majority of MMORPGs, each players will receive the same quests that only they can do (because they are the true hero! ... amongst thousands of other heroes but shhh, don't tell them.). If quests were to include more players rather than restrict them to a single player, I think these games would have a much more MMO-like experience to them. GW2 achieved this to some extent with its Event system, but that system also has it's flaws.

  • thinktank001thinktank001 Member UncommonPosts: 2,144

    [quote] Originally posted by Magiknight   So you would say that DF:UW does have instances?  [/quote]

     

    Yes, I would call it an instance, but many would call it phasing, or whatever new word is used for a portal that sends a player to a seperate map. 

  • corpusccorpusc Member UncommonPosts: 1,341
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by DavisFlight

    For an MMORPG, going without instances is what should be strived for.

     

    So you make a set of axioms what MMOs should be or not and how they should be or not and then when something does not fit in, it is a bad design.


    Fallacious logic is just that, fallacious.

     

    So you make a set of axioms what opinions should be or not and how they should be or not and then when an opinion does not fit in, it is a bad opinion.

    i'll let you take or ignore your own critique there at the end.

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  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441

    Personally do I think instances can be fun, the problem is just the same as with cutscenes, as soon as you add more than a few it tends to be annoying.

    Having a few instanced dungeons and storylines can be fun, just like a few cutscenes can help the mode. As example did we used to run instanced dungeons in EQ2 whenever the server was too full for the open ones. Being in an overfull open dungeon can be rather annoying, and early EQ2 often had most of the dungeons none instanced but had the big boss instanced because you dont want to stand in line for him, or have to wait for respawn and kill the PH.

    But instances cutscenes and phasing are all tools that can easily be overused and that takes away the fun from the game. 

    I dont think Tasos is right here but no instances are way better than too many which most of the modern MMOs have.

    I do not mind instanced solostories like in GW2 even if the game seems somewhat less populated due to it, players going around and only play with themselves doesnt really make the game more social at all and instancing the soloing actually make the world feel more social while still giving the soloers something to do.

    So I guess I give Tasos half right, because too many instances make any MMO into a CORPG instead, which is a very different type of game that is best enjoyed played with a small group of friends instead of a massive social game.

  • BadaboomBadaboom Member UncommonPosts: 2,380
    In terms of crappy design decisions that I think have hurt the genre, instancing is right up there. Followed by global banking, world chat, instant travel and auction houses. 
  • Johnie-MarzJohnie-Marz Member UncommonPosts: 865
    So instances are bad? When you jump gate from one solar system to another, aren't you entering an instance? Each solar system in a space game is it's own instance and the jump gate is like a little cut scene that gets you between instances. I don't see how that is bad game design?
  • NiburuNiburu Member UncommonPosts: 402
    Originally posted by Johnie-Marz
    So instances are bad? When you jump gate from one solar system to another, aren't you entering an instance? Each solar system in a space game is it's own instance and the jump gate is like a little cut scene that gets you between instances. I don't see how that is bad game design?

    sorry but you have no clue what instance means.

     

    An instance are multiple versions of the same zone for a group of players or individual players.

     

    When all players of one world (server) can access the same zone via portal and end up in the same version of the world it is not an instance, i mean if you are a dick and want to call it a single instance OKAY but this would be dumb.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Member Posts: 6,403
    Originally posted by Badaboom
    In terms of crappy design decisions that I think have hurt the genre, instancing is right up there. Followed by global banking, world chat, instant travel and auction houses. 

    Rewarding mediocrity, destruction of community, destruction of roleplay ride the top of my list.  Most of the stuff you mentioned isn't even on the radar.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • CecropiaCecropia Member RarePosts: 3,985
    Originally posted by Badaboom
    In terms of crappy design decisions that I think have hurt the genre, instancing is right up there. Followed by global banking, world chat, instant travel and auction houses. 

    Ah, the MMORPG killers all in one little post. Quite ugly when you see it all at once. My eyes, my eyes! 

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

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