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I Hate Freemium

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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Scot

    When it comes to F2P you don't preorder, here I would only say don't platy the beta. You are going to play it for free anyway so why on earth play the beta? Just like with a sub MMO, if you play the beta you will get jaded more quickly and want to leave.

    I never pre-order, MMO or not, except Diablo 3. There is very few games that i am sure i want to play. It is much better to read about it first, and wait till there are some reviews.

    And F2P is great precisely because you can jump in and play to see how the game is.

    And so what if i want to leave, it is not like there aren't more games to play.

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,742

    Nariusseldon, we sometimes do things in life not because of how we feel about the item or issue but because of what it tells us about the person, company or organisation involved in the issue. If a company is releasing DLC on day one in a solo game they are taking the piss. They could have incorporated this into the game but show they just want to milk as much money out of you as they can. This is acting on principle rather than how I feel aout the DLC itself. Obviously we are not talking about MMO’s here.

    Now a business is there to make a profit, but you can make huge profits without resorting to to ripping customers off. I don’t expect the devs or anyone else in a gaming company to love me and I would point to management as making this sort of decision anyway. I do expect them to play fair, and DLC on day one is putting two fingers up to the gaming public.

    When it comes to MMO’s, DLC is a different ball game. We need DLC to sustain interest, but players also need to realise you can’t pump out DLC that fast. This is why I said from day one that TSW’s announcement about how much they would put out each month was unfeasible and players should not expect that much every month anyway.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601
    Originally posted by Scot

    Nariusseldon, we sometimes do things in life not because of how we feel about the item or issue but because of what it tells us about the person, company or organisation involved in the issue. If a company is releasing DLC on day one in a solo game they are taking the piss. They could have incorporated this into the game but show they just want to milk as much money out of you as they can. This is acting on principle rather than how I feel aout the DLC itself. Obviously we are not talking about MMO’s here.

    Now a business is there to make a profit, but you can make huge profits without resorting to to ripping customers off. I don’t expect the devs or anyone else in a gaming company to love me and I would point to management as making this sort of decision anyway. I do expect them to play fair, and DLC on day one is putting two fingers up to the gaming public.

    When it comes to MMO’s, DLC is a different ball game. We need DLC to sustain interest, but players also need to realise you can’t pump out DLC that fast. This is why I said from day one that TSW’s announcement about how much they would put out each month was unfeasible and players should not expect that much every month anyway.

     I don't think that that is necessarily ripping people off, it's just a different model, one that has a price for the basic system with prices for additional optional systems.  That is how our phone, internet, TV, insurance, car... all these systems work that way.  Paying the basic price gives you the basic system (the game), paying the extra's gives you a bit more.

    Same model that works well in our society with great success.  I don't mind games doing this.

    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Scot

    Nariusseldon, we sometimes do things in life not because of how we feel about the item or issue but because of what it tells us about the person, company or organisation involved in the issue. If a company is releasing DLC on day one in a solo game they are taking the piss. They could have incorporated this into the game but show they just want to milk as much money out of you as they can. This is acting on principle rather than how I feel aout the DLC itself. Obviously we are not talking about MMO’s here.

    So you will not buy any game with day 1 dlc no matter how good the game is? Just because of this "principle"? The fact that day 1 dlc works, mean that not many people have this principle.

    Personally i don't care (on this .. not that i ignore intention in all walks of life .. but we are talking about entertainment here) .. so i guess we act accordingly.

    Now a business is there to make a profit, but you can make huge profits without resorting to to ripping customers off. I don’t expect the devs or anyone else in a gaming company to love me and I would point to management as making this sort of decision anyway. I do expect them to play fair, and DLC on day one is putting two fingers up to the gaming public.

    "ripping customer off" .. if i voluntary pay a sum of money for an amount of entertainment that i expect, it is not ripping off. It is not like we don't know what is include in the game, and what not (day 1 dlc). It is ony a rip off if something is promised but not delivered, and obviously NOT in case of day 1 dlc.

    What is not fair. It is their resource making the DLC ... it is your choice whether to buy it. No one twist your arm to buy the DLC nor the game.

    When it comes to MMO’s, DLC is a different ball game. We need DLC to sustain interest, but players also need to realise you can’t pump out DLC that fast. This is why I said from day one that TSW’s announcement about how much they would put out each month was unfeasible and players should not expect that much every month anyway.

    Now THAT is rippipng customers off giving false promises. As long as a company put out accurate information about what is included in the price, it is fair game.

     

  • fenistilfenistil Member Posts: 3,005
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Scot

    Nariusseldon, we sometimes do things in life not because of how we feel about the item or issue but because of what it tells us about the person, company or organisation involved in the issue. If a company is releasing DLC on day one in a solo game they are taking the piss. They could have incorporated this into the game but show they just want to milk as much money out of you as they can. This is acting on principle rather than how I feel aout the DLC itself. Obviously we are not talking about MMO’s here.

    Now a business is there to make a profit, but you can make huge profits without resorting to to ripping customers off. I don’t expect the devs or anyone else in a gaming company to love me and I would point to management as making this sort of decision anyway. I do expect them to play fair, and DLC on day one is putting two fingers up to the gaming public.

    When it comes to MMO’s, DLC is a different ball game. We need DLC to sustain interest, but players also need to realise you can’t pump out DLC that fast. This is why I said from day one that TSW’s announcement about how much they would put out each month was unfeasible and players should not expect that much every month anyway.

     I don't think that that is necessarily ripping people off, it's just a different model, one that has a price for the basic system with prices for additional optional systems.  That is how our phone, internet, TV, insurance, car... all these systems work that way.  Paying the basic price gives you the basic system (the game), paying the extra's gives you a bit more.

    Same model that works well in our society with great success.  I don't mind games doing this.

    True, but I don't want single player game as a service. Why? It drives cost up for full experience, it is bothersome, it frequently break immersion (like NPC in rpg game telling you to buy DLC to get what he's offering - example DA:O). 

    It is enough hassle, cost and problem to deal with that in mmorpg's.   Single player games and increasing amount of games overall like rising amount of multiplauyer / co-op games having that turn me off and actually make me spend LESS and look for entertaiment that is not so hmm serviced.

    I only accept in example continious subsciption in mmorpg's and it de-facto being a service because there is no other realistic way to finance it.   Thing is I don't want to play only mmorpg's. Don't really have time or willingness to play more than one. 

    So all games going that route will mean that my gaming interest will continue to dwindle.  I don't want to deal with that much amount of services in my life and I don't want to permanently increase budget understood as % of my income I do spend on gaming. 

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by fenistil
     

    True, but I don't want single player game as a service. Why? It drives cost up for full experience, it is bothersome, it frequently break immersion (like NPC in rpg game telling you to buy DLC to get what he's offering - example DA:O). 

    So? That does not mean that it is unethical. I want zero tax, and my bank don't charge me interests on my mortage too. I can't have everything. It is a free market. If you don't like it, don't play it.

    It is enough hassle, cost and problem to deal with that in mmorpg's.   Single player games and increasing amount of games overall like rising amount of multiplauyer / co-op games having that turn me off and actually make me spend LESS and look for entertaiment that is not so hmm serviced.

    Once again, you can find something else to do. Personally it boils down to how fun a game is.

    I only accept in example continious subsciption in mmorpg's and it de-facto being a service because there is no other realistic way to finance it.   Thing is I don't want to play only mmorpg's. Don't really have time or willingness to play more than one. 

    That is obviously false since F2P, and B2P are too existing and successful ways to finance MMOs.

    So all games going that route will mean that my gaming interest will continue to dwindle.  I don't want to deal with that much amount of services in my life and I don't want to permanently increase budget understood as % of my income I do spend on gaming. 

    Me me me ... sure .. that means that YOUR gaming interests will continue to dwindle. All of us want free, and hassle free stuff too. Be realistic.

    People don't let you have everything don't mean they are unethical. Personally, there are enough cheap entertainment around. If you cannot deal with some DLCs, may be you need a different hobby.

     

  • versulasversulas Member UncommonPosts: 288

    meh...  got to hand it to the f2p system in planetside 2. You're just as capable as everyone else without spending a single dime and you don't even notice you have to pay for anything until you try to get a new gun (or armor/cammo/anything). Then it's farm certs for a week, or pay $7-$10... Doesn't help that you can't really try the guns out so if you don't like the gun, well just pony up more cash. Not to mention all the other crap that's available. 

    It's smart, because it doesn't force you to buy shit, it just makes it really hard for folks who have no restraint (which is prob like 80% of the market these days...) to choose the time sink. So yeah, them bastards know their stuff and while I hate the system, I know it could be a lot worse and it'll likely be pretty successful.

  • fenistilfenistil Member Posts: 3,005
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by fenistil
     

    True, but I don't want single player game as a service. Why? It drives cost up for full experience, it is bothersome, it frequently break immersion (like NPC in rpg game telling you to buy DLC to get what he's offering - example DA:O). 

    1. So? That does not mean that it is unethical. I want zero tax, and my bank don't charge me interests on my mortage too. I can't have everything. It is a free market. If you don't like it, don't play it.

    It is enough hassle, cost and problem to deal with that in mmorpg's.   Single player games and increasing amount of games overall like rising amount of multiplauyer / co-op games having that turn me off and actually make me spend LESS and look for entertaiment that is not so hmm serviced.

    2. Once again, you can find something else to do. Personally it boils down to how fun a game is.

    I only accept in example continious subsciption in mmorpg's and it de-facto being a service because there is no other realistic way to finance it.   Thing is I don't want to play only mmorpg's. Don't really have time or willingness to play more than one. 

    3.That is obviously false since F2P, and B2P are too existing and successful ways to finance MMOs.

    So all games going that route will mean that my gaming interest will continue to dwindle.  I don't want to deal with that much amount of services in my life and I don't want to permanently increase budget understood as % of my income I do spend on gaming. 

    4.Me me me ... sure .. that means that YOUR gaming interests will continue to dwindle. All of us want free, and hassle free stuff too. Be realistic.

    People don't let you have everything don't mean they are unethical. Personally, there are enough cheap entertainment around. If you cannot deal with some DLCs, may be you need a different hobby.

     

    1. Quote me where I said it is unethical. You seem to have confused me with someone else.

    2. I said it myself as well.

    3. I meant continuous payment for game vs. one time payment for whole package as in classic box game. Sub was just an example. Can be cash shop or long-string of DLC's or something similar.

    4. Like I said I did not say in my post it is unethical. Please read carefully next time.  Aside of that - yes I mean me, just as you mean you or you are choosen to be an representative of some larger amount of people?

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by versulas

    meh...  got to hand it to the f2p system in planetside 2. You're just as capable as everyone else without spending a single dime and you don't even notice you have to pay for anything until you try to get a new gun (or armor/cammo/anything). Then it's farm certs for a week, or pay $7-$10... Doesn't help that you can't really try the guns out so if you don't like the gun, well just pony up more cash. Not to mention all the other crap that's available. 

    It's smart, because it doesn't force you to buy shit, it just makes it really hard for folks who have no restraint (which is prob like 80% of the market these days...) to choose the time sink. So yeah, them bastards know their stuff and while I hate the system, I know it could be a lot worse and it'll likely be pretty successful.

    Actually you *can*. There is a trial function. I tried my current bolt sniper rifle before putting in the cert to buy it.

    The game isn't bad. So far i have fun, and pay nothing. In fact, i don't think i ever need to pay anything in this game to have fun.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by fenistil

     

    1. Quote me where I said it is unethical. You seem to have confused me with someone else.

    2. I said it myself as well.

    3. I meant continuous payment for game vs. one time payment for whole package as in classic box game. Sub was just an example. Can be cash shop or long-string of DLC's or something similar.

    4. Like I said I did not say in my post it is unethical. Please read carefully next time.  Aside of that - yes I mean me, just as you mean you or you are choosen to be an representative of some larger amount of people?

    In that case, all good. Then you should have no disagreement with what i said, particularly the part about free market, and that you can't have everything you want.

  • fenistilfenistil Member Posts: 3,005
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by fenistil

     

    1. Quote me where I said it is unethical. You seem to have confused me with someone else.

    2. I said it myself as well.

    3. I meant continuous payment for game vs. one time payment for whole package as in classic box game. Sub was just an example. Can be cash shop or long-string of DLC's or something similar.

    4. Like I said I did not say in my post it is unethical. Please read carefully next time.  Aside of that - yes I mean me, just as you mean you or you are choosen to be an representative of some larger amount of people?

    In that case, all good. Then you should have no disagreement with what i said, particularly the part about free market, and that you can't have everything you want.

    Of course you can read my post to know that I have no disagreement with free market. I also never said that I demand everything I want.    I am simply stating that I don't like turning all games into services because it is non-beneficial for me. 

    Don't jump the gun so fast next time.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by fenistil
     

    Of course you can read my post to know that I have no disagreement with free market. I also never said that I demand everything I want.    I am simply stating that I don't like turning all games into services because it is non-beneficial for me. 

     

    That is fair. It certainly is your perogative to dislike a particular form of business arrangement, as a personal preference.

  • myrmxmyrmx Member Posts: 93

    From my perspective having played about every monthly mmorpg i can tell you they are also fremium except the money the player spend to advance their cause goes to chinese gold shop and the like...

    there is no monthly payment game currently that has no usd for gold website . The problem isn't with the company budget plan but with the community. If you want fair game you're better off going back to social skill such as poker , pool or chess.

  • fenistilfenistil Member Posts: 3,005
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by fenistil
     

    Of course you can read my post to know that I have no disagreement with free market. I also never said that I demand everything I want.    I am simply stating that I don't like turning all games into services because it is non-beneficial for me. 

     

    That is fair. It certainly is your perogative to dislike a particular form of business arrangement, as a personal preference.

    I know. That's why I was surprised that you brought big guns at me.

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,742

    Part of my astonishment at some posters has nothing to with freemium, themeparks and such debates. It is that they seem to start from the position that the gaming industry is perfect, cannot be critiqued and has never been better. This year was better than last year and no doubt to them, next year will be better than this year. This is why I think of them as wearing a rather rosy pair of spectacles when it comes to gaming.

    The DLC at day one issue shows that the gaming company withheld content from the game you brought at launch. They kept back what you had paid for. This is not development of extra content it is dividing up the content of a game you have made and keeping back some slices, expecting players to fork out more from day one.

    Once again though I am sure some posters will not get this, as it shows the gaming industry in a bad light and for them the industry can do no wrong.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Scot

    Part of my astonishment at some posters has nothing to with freemium, themeparks and such debates. It is that they seem to start from the position that the gaming industry is perfect, cannot be critiqued and has never been better. This year was better than last year and no doubt to them, next year will be better than this year. This is why I think of them as wearing a rather rosy pair of spectacles when it comes to gaming.

    The DLC at day one issue shows that the gaming company withheld content from the game you brought at launch. They kept back what you had paid for. This is not development of extra content it is dividing up the content of a game you have made and keeping back some slices, expecting players to fork out more from day one.

    Once again though I am sure some posters will not get this, as it shows the gaming industry in a bad light and for them the industry can do no wrong.

    Don't know if you are talking about me.

    However, there is a difference from "being perfect", and that it is a "normal" state of things.

    Sure i would like cheaper games, more games to my liking, and so on .. but the point is that the free market  is working as it should be. The game industry has freedom to sell stuff as they see fit, and you have the freedom to use (or not use) their products as you see fit.

    There is no such thing as "perfect". It is a matter of preference. The industry want all your money. They can't have that. You want free games. You can't have that. Whatever you get .. in between the two extreme ... is how the free market operates.

    The concept of "right" and "wrong" simply don't apply here, as long as they are not breaking laws and commiting fraud. It is only whether a particularly person like it enough to do business.

  • worldalphaworldalpha Member Posts: 403
    Freemium is here to stay for awhile.  For a small MMO to get a following, Freemium is about the only option.  If I could sub I would.

    Thanks,
    Mike
    Working on Social Strategy MMORTS (now Launched!) http://www.worldalpha.com

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Scot

    Part of my astonishment at some posters has nothing to with freemium, themeparks and such debates. It is that they seem to start from the position that the gaming industry is perfect, cannot be critiqued and has never been better.

    Can you link to the posts that you derived that from. I would normally ask you to link to the posts that say that, but I think we both know no such posts exist.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,742

    Just taking these from a few of the threads we have atm: If you think there is nothing wrong with themeparks, wanting to be a content locust, Freemium, DLC on day one and instanced PvP trash; then I think it is alright to say some posters on here think the industry is perfect. I don’t really think I need to cite posts when we see the same posters coming back again and again with never a word against any of this.

    I am not saying you should think all of that is wrong, I am saying it is a blinkered view when you think it is all fine. I put this forward as a counter to those who say all we do is complain. All some do is find everything wonderful or a non-issue.

    I really do not think this is a question about a free market. At every stage of gaming history we have had a free market. Gaming has been influenced by innovative founders, good and bad business practices and corporate philosophy but the free market has not shaped games in a like manner. It has simply supported those games and fads which make the most money.

    I appreciate a small MMO can be difficult funding wise. But you can still play it two ways. You can set prices like they did in Allods, leaving players thinking they had put the decimal point in the wrong place. Or try for something on a fairer basis. Good luck to anyone trying to get a MMO of the ground with today’s locust gamers.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601

    There is a very big difference between people thinking that there is nothing inherently wrong with themeparks, dlc on day one and freemium content and people thinking the industry is perfect.  To make that stretch requires a pretty incredible logic leap.   I don't believe anyone has stated or even implied that the industry is perfect, however many have stated they like where it is now and where it is going.

    Whether someone is content locus, and intance pvp is trash is entirely subjective so not worth a comment on that.

    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Scot

    Just taking these from a few of the threads we have atm: If you think there is nothing wrong with themeparks, wanting to be a content locust, Freemium, DLC on day one and instanced PvP trash; then I think it is alright to say some posters on here think the industry is perfect. I don’t really think I need to cite posts when we see the same posters coming back again and again with never a word against any of this.

    I am not saying you should think all of that is wrong, I am saying it is a blinkered view when you think it is all fine. I put this forward as a counter to those who say all we do is complain. All some do is find everything wonderful or a non-issue.

    And the question again, is where are these posts where people are saying all of those things together are fine?

    "Part of my astonishment at some posters has nothing to with freemium, themeparks and such debates. It is that they seem to start from the position that the gaming industry is perfect, cannot be critiqued and has never been better." - Scot

    Just interested in how you got the impression anyone felt that way.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,742

    Well look at VengeSunsoar and nariusseldon’s posts. To them non of the issues held any weight, I am just picking those two out as they did reply to my post.

    Simply saying you want to see more of the same but cheaper means that apart from pricing the gaming industry is at an all time zenith. Clearly that is pretty near damn perfect.

    If you think nothing is wrong with the gaming industry on any of those issues, then you think the industry is perfect. Here is my definition of perfect - nothing needs to change. So if you think all those issues had no weight you think the industry does not wish to change one iota. Now I could be wrong, please tell us about what you see as a bugbear in the industry currently.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Scot

    Well look at VengeSunsoar and nariusseldon’s posts. To them non of the issues held any weight, I am just picking those two out as they did reply to my post.

    Simply saying you want to see more of the same but cheaper means that apart from pricing the gaming industry is at an all time zenith. Clearly that is pretty near damn perfect.

    If you think nothing is wrong with the gaming industry on any of those issues, then you think the industry is perfect. Here is my definition of perfect - nothing needs to change. So if you think all those issues had no weight you think the industry does not wish to change one iota. Now I could be wrong, please tell us about what you see as a bugbear in the industry currently.

    It seems like you are under the assumption that if they aren't actively complaining on message boards about things they don't like and they have little or no problems with the things you don't like, then they see the industry as being perfect.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601
    Originally posted by Scot

    Well look at VengeSunsoar and nariusseldon’s posts. To them non of the issues held any weight, I am just picking those two out as they did reply to my post.

    Simply saying you want to see more of the same but cheaper means that apart from pricing the gaming industry is at an all time zenith. Clearly that is pretty near damn perfect.

    If you think nothing is wrong with the gaming industry on any of those issues, then you think the industry is perfect. Here is my definition of perfect - nothing needs to change. So if you think all those issues had no weight you think the industry does not wish to change one iota. Now I could be wrong, please tell us about what you see as a bugbear in the industry currently.

     Um no.  Once again those are very different issues and requires a fantastic leap in logic to bridge.  I like current games and would like to see more of them.  I don't mind dlc on day one, especially if I know what I'm getting into before I do it, I don't mind freemium...

    That does not mean I think the genre is perfect.  There are many things I would like to see - even more variety in payment options, more skill based, more puzzles, I like longevity but dislike grind (that will take some creative thinking), I like housing brick and board style...

    The industry is far from perfect however I still like current games and don't have an issue with the companies providing more of them.

    edit - and personally I don't care about cheaper.  Actually I could care less about the payment model.  To me that is the least important aspect of my game and has nothing to do with my immersion or enjoyment. 

    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Scot

    Well look at VengeSunsoar and nariusseldon’s posts. To them non of the issues held any weight, I am just picking those two out as they did reply to my post.

    Simply saying you want to see more of the same but cheaper means that apart from pricing the gaming industry is at an all time zenith. Clearly that is pretty near damn perfect.

    If you think nothing is wrong with the gaming industry on any of those issues, then you think the industry is perfect. Here is my definition of perfect - nothing needs to change. So if you think all those issues had no weight you think the industry does not wish to change one iota. Now I could be wrong, please tell us about what you see as a bugbear in the industry currently.

    What is a "bugbear" in the industry? Rigid pricing structure like a fix box price, and then sub fees. Sub fees are very inflexible and force player commitment. F2P is a much better model, and thankfully it is taken hold.

    Another "bugbear"? Artificial high price (like $60 games) because of inefficient distribution. Do you know that retailers like Gamestop can take 1/3 of the price? Direct distribution like Steam should help ... but price is still equal (like a new AAA game is still $60 on steam) for now. Hopefully that will change.

    Indie games, OTOH, are priced accoding to value & demand.

    Who says the industry should not change? Just not the stuff you want change.

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