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I Hate Freemium

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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
     

    I support what I like with my wallet and don't really care if people who don't like it care how it affects "the industry".  Those who don't like what I like can and do vote with their wallets.  Obviously subs aren't going anywhere soon because WoW is still cooking along strong with the recurring fee years later.

    I'm not sure I understand why you care so much and lecture about what other people do with their entertainment dollars.

    This ^^^

    I vote with my wallet and my time and i don't apologize for my preference. It is just entertainment. Obviously i should enjoy it the way i want to.

    Trying to lecture other how to "enjoy" their game .. is just ... silly.

  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Member EpicPosts: 3,321

    Would you also be okay with buying a 60 dollar game, having half the content purposely locked out or/and removed...and for every hour of content, you must pay another 10 dollars? That is where things are heading at this rate...and people with more money than sense, will still support it.

    My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB: 

    https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul



  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by TheScavenger
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by TheScavenger

    Can't see why anyone thinks pay to win is acceptable. Except maybe those who spend money to win.

    Actually i never pay but i think p2w is acceptable. Very simple. If someone else is subsidizing my game, he can "win" a little more. It is only fair.

    Same here. My son and I have plenty of MMOs that we can play together because someone else is footing the bill. If it means they're on a flying sparkle pony while my son and I are on palominoes, we're ok with that.

    No wonder all the new MMOs fail. 

    I understand better now why you have the stance you do - you have absolutely no understanding of how the business model works.  I get where your coming from now. If I was as unfamiliar with the subject matter as you are, I would probably feel the same way you do about the industry. Actually, I would either not concern myself with it or read up about it a bit before attempting to discuss it with others.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601
    Originally posted by TheScavenger
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by TheScavenger
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by TheScavenger
     

    You are also fine with being a content locust from that one thread.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/370005/Whats-wrong-with-players-being-content-locust.html

    Therefor in reality, you don't want an MMO. You want a singleplayer game in a pseudo MMO format, and done with it in a week and moving on. Why play an MMO at all then? Find a singleplayer game, its a lot cheaper and you can be done with it in a week or less.

     

    No wonder you are fine with pay to win and day 1 DLC. Explains everything. Either that, or you are a Grade A troll...who the heck would be fine with a developer cutting out content and releasing it as Day 1 DLC?

     

    I give you kudos...had me going for a while.

    "single player game in a pseudo MMO format" .. isn't that what MMOs are today? Why play a MMO? Because they are lobby co-op games, or instanced arena games? Because they have become better games, and progress away from the old UO/EQ.

    Do you think i would play MMO if all MMOs are still stuck in the UO design?

    Like i say before, if someone is subsidizing my games, it is only fair he got some advantage.

    "Who the heck would be fine with a developers cutting out content and releasing it as DAY 1 DC"? Everyone purchasing the game, and the DLC? So millions.

    It is a free world. You don't have to buy anything you don't like. Devs have zero obligations to give out all teh content to you. And you have zero obligations to buy anything.

    You sound lke they owe you .. they don't. It is their game. They can charge whatever.

    So you support the degradation of the industry?

    I would say they disagree it is degradation, from their perspective it is improvement and they are suppporting an improvement of the industry.

    I just can't see how anyone thinks it would be an improvement to purposely cut out features and release them as day 1 dlc...

     

    maybe pay to win I could see. They don't want to grind 50 hours a week to get items...or they don't have time to play MMOs and want to keep up with others.

     

    The latter maybe...the former...how the heck is that an improvement?

     Well for one it is typically free to get into and they can play a good portion free.   2. having content that they can choose to purchase or not lets them decide what they would like to play and how to spend their money.

    I guess they feel that any negatives to that are outweighed by the positives. 

    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by TheScavenger

    Would you also be okay with buying a 60 dollar game, having half the content purposely locked out or/and removed...and for every hour of content, you must pay another 10 dollars? That is where things are heading at this rate...and people with more money than sense, will still support it.

    Depends on the game, of course.

    If a game is fun enough that half of the content is worth more than $60 to me, then yes. Otherwise no.

    And i highly doubt that would be the case, since there are so many F2P, Freemium games. IF a F2P is fun enough, why would i even pay $60 for any game? It has to be superb.

    BTW, i am ok with the practice, since it is not MY game. The devs are free to price it anyway they want to. However, in this particular case, it is very unlikely that i will purchase. And i am ok with that too. I don't have to play every game on the planet, you know.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by TheScavenger

    Would you also be okay with buying a 60 dollar game, having half the content purposely locked out or/and removed...and for every hour of content, you must pay another 10 dollars? That is where things are heading at this rate...and people with more money than sense, will still support it.

    Depends on the game, of course.

    If a game is fun enough that half of the content is worth more than $60 to me, then yes. Otherwise no.

    And i highly doubt that would be the case, since there are so many F2P, Freemium games. IF a F2P is fun enough, why would i even pay $60 for any game? It has to be superb.

    BTW, i am ok with the practice, since it is not MY game. The devs are free to price it anyway they want to. However, in this particular case, it is very unlikely that i will purchase. And i am ok with that too. I don't have to play every game on the planet, you know.

    image Word.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
     

    See, you're assuming that how you perceive the situation and how those who disagree with you perceive the situation are the same.  You're also lumping everyone who likes F2P, B2P, or Freemium in the same group just like you're lumping all micro-transactions and F2P business models in the same group.

    My arguments with you haven't been to try and convince you to like "F2P" where as you're trying to convice the rest of us to go P2P.  My arguments have been to try and show you that those who disagree have a different perspective than you do.  They see the situation differently and some of us see P2P games having the same trappings as F2P (p2w, etc) wrapped in a different package.

    The bottom line, for me, is that I get to play some really cool games I like.  Those games have all cost me less than their P2P cousins yet still offer me a lot of entertainment and fun with my family and friends.

    Finally, this is just a forum. I highly doubt whatever being said here will affect the market much.

    Fact: F2P is gaining share over P2P.

    Fact: F2P is growing in revenue.

    Fact: I play lots of F2P games without paying a dime (or at least part of some games).

    All good from my point of view.

  • stealthbrstealthbr Member UncommonPosts: 1,054
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    Maybe you misread my post.  I never said I couldn't pay the sub or wouldn't pay the sub.  I said I am STILL paying a subscription but since I didn't buy the expansion I'm locked out of content, at a disadvantage, and alienated from the main community with regards to game play.

    No, I did not misread your post. Paying a subscription is paying to access content the same way that paying an expansion is paying to access content. If you don't pay your subscription, your character can't progress any further. Likewise, if you don't pay for the expansion your character will also stop progressing. Therefore, by your rationale, subscriptions make P2P games P2W, since you consider expansions to be P2W.

  • BookahBookah Member UncommonPosts: 260
    Originally posted by stealthbr

    Let me provide a few examples to further enlighten my point on Freemium models breaking immersion.

    You're running around town looking for citizens that require your assistance, you turn a corner and among the shadows of an abandoned alley you spot a desolate little girl that has clearly been weaping. You approach her and offer an ear to hear her tale of dismay, and as she concludes her explanation of the events that have led to her current state of being, you decide to lend her some assistance. A new window appears on your screen, what could this be? "In order to accept this quest, you must first buy the "Desolate Girl Quest Pack" now for a special price of $4.99!"

    You decide to group up with a wizard you met nearby and embark in an epic adventure to reach the depths of an ancient dragon's lair. You are both ready to begin, mounted on your horses, and as you begin your journey, the wizard disbands and rides elsewhere. Puzzled, you ask him the reason for such abruptness. "Can't do that dungeon, sorry! Have to buy it." 

    Good point, that would kinda ruin the moment to say the least.

    Ive never had this happen, but it is certainly possible in a few MMO's that i know of.

     

    image
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601
    Originally posted by stealthbr
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    Maybe you misread my post.  I never said I couldn't pay the sub or wouldn't pay the sub.  I said I am STILL paying a subscription but since I didn't buy the expansion I'm locked out of content, at a disadvantage, and alienated from the main community with regards to game play.

    No, I did not misread your post. Paying a subscription is paying to access content the same way that paying an expansion is paying to access content. If you don't pay your subscription, your character can't progress any further. Likewise, if you don't pay for the expansion your character will also stop progressing. Therefore, by your rationale, subscriptions make P2P games P2W, since you consider expansions to be P2W.

     Hmm I don't see it that way.  Paying for an expansion is over and above the suscription.  It's extra and does allow me to get more.

    I see the two as seperate issues. 

    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Bookah
    Originally posted by stealthbr

    Let me provide a few examples to further enlighten my point on Freemium models breaking immersion.

    You're running around town looking for citizens that require your assistance, you turn a corner and among the shadows of an abandoned alley you spot a desolate little girl that has clearly been weaping. You approach her and offer an ear to hear her tale of dismay, and as she concludes her explanation of the events that have led to her current state of being, you decide to lend her some assistance. A new window appears on your screen, what could this be? "In order to accept this quest, you must first buy the "Desolate Girl Quest Pack" now for a special price of $4.99!"

    You decide to group up with a wizard you met nearby and embark in an epic adventure to reach the depths of an ancient dragon's lair. You are both ready to begin, mounted on your horses, and as you begin your journey, the wizard disbands and rides elsewhere. Puzzled, you ask him the reason for such abruptness. "Can't do that dungeon, sorry! Have to buy it." 

    Good point, that would kinda ruin the moment to say the least.

    Ive never had this happen, but it is certainly possible in a few MMO's that i know of.

     

    @Bookah, it happens all the time and been happening for a decade or more. It's called "Not having the expansion pack."

    @Stealth, you really need to learn there is a significant difference between "an example" and "some stuff I just made up to prove my point."

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • stealthbrstealthbr Member UncommonPosts: 1,054
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    @Stealth, you really need to learn there is a significant difference between "an example" and "some stuff I just made up to prove my point."

    You, sir, are hilarious!

  • stealthbrstealthbr Member UncommonPosts: 1,054
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    <snip>

    My analogy was made to show how I believe your point is flawed. Still, I still stand by the argument that there is a vast difference between buying access to content to potentially receive rewards, and simply buying the rewards directly.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601
    Originally posted by TheScavenger
    Originally posted by stealthbr
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    @Stealth, you really need to learn there is a significant difference between "an example" and "some stuff I just made up to prove my point."

    You, sir, are hilarious!

    [mod edit]

    So people telling you calmly and reasonably that they disagree, and then pointing why they disagree is trolling.

    Gotcha.

    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Member EpicPosts: 3,321
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by TheScavenger
    Originally posted by stealthbr
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    @Stealth, you really need to learn there is a significant difference between "an example" and "some stuff I just made up to prove my point."

    You, sir, are hilarious!

    [mod edit]

    So people telling you calmly and reasonably that they disagree, and then pointing why they disagree is trolling.

    Gotcha.

    Subtly, but yes. No one right in the head, or maybe if they just have more money than sense...is going to be okay with developers purposely removing content, to re-sale as day 1 DLC.

     

    And luckily, many agree...because said DLC becomes heavily pirated, and/or the game gets horrid reviews (especially on Metacritic)...and while some here may not agree with metacritic...many developers do.

    My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB: 

    https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul



  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601
    Originally posted by TheScavenger
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by TheScavenger
    Originally posted by stealthbr
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    @Stealth, you really need to learn there is a significant difference between "an example" and "some stuff I just made up to prove my point."

    You, sir, are hilarious!

    He and that other dude have been trolling my thread about freemiums too. They are obviously trolling to get a rise out of us. No one can really be okay with day 1 DLCs that were purposely removed out of the original release game AND also call it an improvement...

    So people telling you calmly and reasonably that they disagree, and then pointing why they disagree is trolling.

    Gotcha.

    Subtly, but yes. No one right in the head, or maybe if they just have more money than sense...is going to be okay with developers purposely removing content, to re-sale as day 1 DLC.

     

    And luckily, many agree...because said DLC becomes heavily pirated, and/or the game gets horrid reviews (especially on Metacritic)...and while some here may not agree with metacritic...many developers do.

    "No one in their right head".  Meaning that only people that agree with you are in their right head - interesting. 

    This is as good as our grandparents saying, "all right thinking people" only to be wrong later on. 

    I pointed out 2 reasons earlier. 

    Making a hypothetical situation doesn't prove a point.

    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Member EpicPosts: 3,321

    Like I said, luckily many agree that Day 1 DLC is a horrible practice. Which then gets said company a sh! ton of horrible reviews on Metacritics and increases piracy by...well I'm not going to throw out a number...but by a lot. At least, that is #1 reason I see when a day 1 DLC is released. And many developers have even lost their jobs over it (the metacritic reviews). 

    My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB: 

    https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul



  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by TheScavenger

    Like I said, luckily many agree that Day 1 DLC is a horrible practice. Which then gets said company a sh! ton of horrible reviews on Metacritics and increases piracy by...well I'm not going to throw out a number...but by a lot. At least, that is #1 reason I see when a day 1 DLC is released. And many developers have even lost their jobs over it (the metacritic reviews). 

    Do you actually have evidence or a bunch of people ranting on the internet?

    If day 1 DLC is so horrible, why are people still buying them? It is a free market.

    But we are not talking abotu day 1 DLC, but freemium game, and THAT is certainly a good idea.

  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Member EpicPosts: 3,321
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by TheScavenger

    Like I said, luckily many agree that Day 1 DLC is a horrible practice. Which then gets said company a sh! ton of horrible reviews on Metacritics and increases piracy by...well I'm not going to throw out a number...but by a lot. At least, that is #1 reason I see when a day 1 DLC is released. And many developers have even lost their jobs over it (the metacritic reviews). 

    Do you actually have evidence or a bunch of people ranting on the internet?

    If day 1 DLC is so horrible, why are people still buying them? It is a free market.

    But we are not talking abotu day 1 DLC, but freemium game, and THAT is certainly a good idea.

    ok

    My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB: 

    https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul



  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,741

    Day 1 DLC shows an utter disregard for the player as a consumer. It shows you had something ready for the game but you held it back to rake in some extra cash.

    If we are talking DLC in a MMO I am a bit puzzeled as to what you mean, if you mean a MMO has a cash shop with DLC on day one well my argument above does not apply. When it comes to cash shop DLC it is all down to game changing and P2W, as long as the DLC is not like that it I would expect a cash shop to be up and ready on day one. 

  • fenistilfenistil Member Posts: 3,005
    Originally posted by RandomDown
    Originally posted by fenistil
    So basically what you say is that consumers should never criticize business model?

    Vocal criticism doesn't mean much if it is still a profitable behavior. The gaming community at large decried the always online DRM that D3 utilized but look at how it sold. The fact of the matter is complaining is not criticism, its just complaining. When a person says they should have access to all the content completely free AND that noone should get an advantage for providing revenue to the company, its completely absurd. That is what I am referring to, and it is not an uncommon "criticism" of the model that there are power gaps and content gates for people who don't pay anything into the game at all.

    I agree with one thing.  Vocal criticism does not matter much if at all.  Alot of people criticise / complain about some game busienss model or about some game additions to cash shop but still play this game.   I agree that that it is silly behaviour. 

    ONLY real method to show that you don't like certain business model is quitting said game (or games) permanently. Doing it fast also. Simple as that.   Voicing critiscism may help certain person vent their anger - but then I ask why play game with business model that make you angry in first place?  

    Imo critisising is nothing bad BUT criticising itself does not change anything.   People that complain about business model or that cash shop in their beloved game went p2w AND still play are silly.   Yes I said it.

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 22,741

    I have voted with my feet and I come to complain on here. That good enough? I would have played TSW or GW2 after I finished SWTOR, but the state MMO's are in made me tell friends you go on without me.

    Next year when I think those two supposedly "AAA" releases have had enough updates I will pick one and play it. More importantly than my own stance on MMO's there is a general principle to follow. Do not Preorder. It is that simple really, it is because so many players preorder that gaming companies think they can get away with anything.

    When it comes to F2P you don't preorder, here I would only say don't platy the beta. You are going to play it for free anyway so why on earth play the beta? Just like with a sub MMO, if you play the beta you will get jaded more quickly and want to leave.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by TheScavenger

    Like I said, luckily many agree that Day 1 DLC is a horrible practice. Which then gets said company a sh! ton of horrible reviews on Metacritics and increases piracy by...well I'm not going to throw out a number...but by a lot. At least, that is #1 reason I see when a day 1 DLC is released. And many developers have even lost their jobs over it (the metacritic reviews). 

    Do you actually have evidence or a bunch of people ranting on the internet?

    If day 1 DLC is so horrible, why are people still buying them? It is a free market.

    But we are not talking abotu day 1 DLC, but freemium game, and THAT is certainly a good idea.

    Agreed. The Scav seems to have switched the discussion to something completely different, yet still not providing any data or information to support even this new, and completely unrelated, argument.

    Purchasable content and services at release is almost mandatory for a freemium game. Not having it would be a red flag that something is up with the game.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • RandomDownRandomDown Member UncommonPosts: 145
    Originally posted by Scot

    I have voted with my feet and I come to complain on here. That good enough? I would have played TSW or GW2 after I finished SWTOR, but the state MMO's are in made me tell friends you go on without me.

    Next year when I think those two supposedly "AAA" releases have had enough updates I will pick one and play it. More importantly than my own stance on MMO's there is a general principle to follow. Do not Preorder. It is that simple really, it is because so many players preorder that gaming companies think they can get away with anything.

    When it comes to F2P you don't preorder, here I would only say don't platy the beta. You are going to play it for free anyway so why on earth play the beta? Just like with a sub MMO, if you play the beta you will get jaded more quickly and want to leave.

    Like he said, depends how quickly you did it =P. In all seriousness though, you aren't presenting it as "crticism" of the industry or its practices in a sort of fair and biased stance. You say you dislike this game because of X reasons, which is a valid way to do it. The issue I take are people who say "the market doens't this or that" when the exact games they are talking about using this model do more than well enough to recoup their investment.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Scot

    Day 1 DLC shows an utter disregard for the player as a consumer. It shows you had something ready for the game but you held it back to rake in some extra cash.

    If we are talking DLC in a MMO I am a bit puzzeled as to what you mean, if you mean a MMO has a cash shop with DLC on day one well my argument above does not apply. When it comes to cash shop DLC it is all down to game changing and P2W, as long as the DLC is not like that it I would expect a cash shop to be up and ready on day one. 

    And? I don't play games because i feel the dev loves me. I play games because they are good entertainment. If a game is super fun, why shouldn't i buy it even if it has a day 1 dlc? If a game is not to my liking, why would i care even if the dev gives it to me, and beg me to play it?

    And the DLC talk is just red herring and has nothing to do with MMOs.

     

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