Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

I Hate Freemium

2456

Comments

  • stealthbrstealthbr Member UncommonPosts: 1,054
    Originally posted by Malcanis

    Not all Freemium models are the same. EVE has effectively been a "freemuim" game almost since the beginning, and hasn't suffered the issues you describe, or at least not so much that they outweight the benefits.

    The devil is in the details. A well set-up, balanced freemium model can work well. A poorly conceived, exploitative one can cause problems as you describe.

     

    The only players that are going to play EVE for "free" are the more advanced and established ones that can afford to buy PLEX every month. EVE is a P2P game at its core.

  • CalmOceansCalmOceans Member UncommonPosts: 2,437
    same
  • fenistilfenistil Member Posts: 3,005
    Originally posted by Seelinnikoi

    STEALTHBR, were you playing Lotro?

     

    If yes, I feel you man... you took the words out of my mouth. 

    Yeah. Lotro when went freemium made me hate this model, and I really tried to embrace it and try to 'cope' with freemium and cash shop.   Never ever again.   Horrible experience and horrible waste of time.    I really just regret I have not quit Lotro on first day freemium was announced.

  • strangiato2112strangiato2112 Member CommonPosts: 1,538
    Originally posted by samvenice
    Originally posted by RandomDown

    Thats because 15 dollars isnt enough. That number hasn't risen at all with inflation while other costs have.

    And other costs have been dramatically lowered to close to nothing, compared to what it was back in the day:

    • server hosting (new technologies with less power consumption and cheaper to build)
    • bandwidth (my first ISP 18 years ago had a super expensive connection that was 1/500 of what I have now)
    • maintenance (virtualization makes everything easy even in case of absolute disaster).
    Last but not least, who said prices have to go up? In the past year, I've seen prices go DOWN for quite a few things (including my own private utility bills, and by a longshot, real estate prices, rent prices, food, beer - and I currently live in Spain - so go figure)
     
    15 is more than enough, the sub should actually go into the 9,99 range, considering that almost everyone makes you pay for major expansions (expansions that do not come with 1month gametime included)
     
    Bear in mind I do have a full time job and disposable income, I would probably pay 20 or more if it was worth it (Daoc2.0).
     
    Closing up, I still think Freemium is the way to go.

    So you think a software developer salary in 1999 is comparable to one in 2012?  Thats the biggest cost for an MMO.  

    The games that havent chosen alternative models are either old games with little to no staff (DAoC), games with massive numbers of subscriptions to cover the (mostly) fixed salary cost (WoW, whiich has a cash shop anyway because they can), or games that are still unsure of if they will need to make a change (Rift, and I bet if you come back in a year their cash shop will have more than a mount + 2 CE upgrades...that $15 mount is proof enough they were concerned about their revenues)

  • stealthbrstealthbr Member UncommonPosts: 1,054
    Originally posted by Seelinnikoi

    STEALTHBR, were you playing Lotro?

     

    If yes, I feel you man... you took the words out of my mouth. 

    I was playing DDO and SWTOR, but DDO is also made by Turbine so I can imagine the similarities. In SWTOR, it's even worse. 

  • Four0SixFour0Six Member UncommonPosts: 1,175
    i believe that if you started with a "Freemium" model you could, in theory, produce a quality model. When games switch to this model that problems arise. Just as when you convert a car to a boat. Sure it can be done, it may even float....but it wont be nearly as fun as when it was just a car, and is most likley a lame boat.
  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Member EpicPosts: 3,321
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by TheScavenger
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Sub / P2P games are P2W because if you don't buy the xpacs you're locked out of content even if you're still locked into the subscription.

    Not every pay to play MMO has expansions. And not all expansions you have to pay for.

    Not every free to play or freemium mmo requires you to buy expansions either.  See how crazy generalizations can work both ways?  Just like not every P2P mmo works the same neither does every F2P / Freemium mmo.

    Every freemium requires you to pay to unlock features or bonus to exp or whatever. Those who pay, get all of them, those who don't, get nothing (and sometimes pay more). On the other hand, pay to play MMOs (that don't have paid expansions) means EVERYONE is on an even playing field. Nice try though.

    My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB: 

    https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul



  • PurutzilPurutzil Member UncommonPosts: 3,048

    I disagree. Fremium to me is the best model for F2P goes. Due to having subs being the basis of a 'all access' pass, it helps to give players who just want to p2p the option to do so without losing content when done right. Those playing free can often times get that content through in game methods depending on the game and content is often times done in a way allowing it to be paid for in pieces. DDO does this very well (in part due to its game design) which I feel is plausible with Freemium for people to pay for stuff WITHOUT making it impend your experience that much.

     

    F2P will often give far bigger advantages to the player that ends up leaving players unsatisfied. Freemium can offer some minor boosts such as increased xp rate or other features, but a F2P is far more likely to offer these things for a cost.

     

    Don't get me wrong, I prefer pure sub, but if a game HAD to go F2P in some way, I'd rather it be a well designed Freemium model over F2P. its far less likely to need to rely upon nickle and diming the users as much as possible.

  • AxiosImmortalAxiosImmortal Member UncommonPosts: 645
    The reason why Pay to play is disappearing is because mmos nowadays aren't worthy of Pay to Play 15 bucks a month. So they lower themselves to Freemium.

    Looking at: The Repopulation
    Preordering: None
    Playing: Random Games

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by TheScavenger
     

    Every freemium requires you to pay to unlock features or bonus to exp or whatever. Those who pay, get all of them, those who don't, get nothing (and sometimes pay more). On the other hand, pay to play MMOs (that don't have paid expansions) means EVERYONE is on an even playing field. Nice try though.

    Are we greedy here? You already got some of the game for free. Be happy.

    And what is so great for everyone on the even playing field? If someone is subsidizing your gaming, isn't it fair that he got a little advantage?

  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Member EpicPosts: 3,321
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by TheScavenger
     

    Every freemium requires you to pay to unlock features or bonus to exp or whatever. Those who pay, get all of them, those who don't, get nothing (and sometimes pay more). On the other hand, pay to play MMOs (that don't have paid expansions) means EVERYONE is on an even playing field. Nice try though.

    Are we greedy here? You already got some of the game for free. Be happy.

    And what is so great for everyone on the even playing field? If someone is subsidizing your gaming, isn't it fair that he got a little advantage?

    ^doesn't PvP

    My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB: 

    https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul



  • RandomDownRandomDown Member UncommonPosts: 145
    Originally posted by TheScavenger
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by TheScavenger
     

    Every freemium requires you to pay to unlock features or bonus to exp or whatever. Those who pay, get all of them, those who don't, get nothing (and sometimes pay more). On the other hand, pay to play MMOs (that don't have paid expansions) means EVERYONE is on an even playing field. Nice try though.

    Are we greedy here? You already got some of the game for free. Be happy.

    And what is so great for everyone on the even playing field? If someone is subsidizing your gaming, isn't it fair that he got a little advantage?

    ^doesn't PvP

    Even if he doesn't so what? You think its unreasonable for the ones who invest into a freemium game to have at least some advantage? I constantly see complaints about how its so lame for a f2p game that gate anything behind paywall, and say they ought to be able to play everything for free and then "maybe" they'd pay for stuff. It makes no sense, you wouldn't have a product of value anymore. There is going to be some downside to the model, just like sub models have them.

  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Member EpicPosts: 3,321
    Originally posted by RandomDown
    Originally posted by TheScavenger
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by TheScavenger
     

    Every freemium requires you to pay to unlock features or bonus to exp or whatever. Those who pay, get all of them, those who don't, get nothing (and sometimes pay more). On the other hand, pay to play MMOs (that don't have paid expansions) means EVERYONE is on an even playing field. Nice try though.

    Are we greedy here? You already got some of the game for free. Be happy.

    And what is so great for everyone on the even playing field? If someone is subsidizing your gaming, isn't it fair that he got a little advantage?

    ^doesn't PvP

    Even if he doesn't so what? You think its unreasonable for the ones who invest into a freemium game to have at least some advantage? I constantly see complaints about how its so lame for a f2p game that gate anything behind paywall, and say they ought to be able to play everything for free and then "maybe" they'd pay for stuff. It makes no sense, you wouldn't have a product of value anymore. There is going to be some downside to the model, just like sub models have them.

    Take DDO. They are putting in a +4 stat tome in the cash shop. A PvE game, but a +4 stat tome "was" the rarest item (well one of the rarest) in the game. Now everyone will be forced to buy it. Good for those that don't have time for MMOs (then its the wrong genre, MMOs are most time consuming genre in industry)...want a large advantage over someone...but now everyone will be required to get the +4 stat tome.

     

    Can't see why anyone thinks pay to win is acceptable. Except maybe those who spend money to win.

     

    And this is a perfect example of why pay to play games, and not freemium, are way better. And also true free to plays, the ones that started out free...(though some are pay to win as well)

    My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB: 

    https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul



  • RandomDownRandomDown Member UncommonPosts: 145
    Originally posted by TheScavenger
    Originally posted by RandomDown
    Originally posted by TheScavenger
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by TheScavenger
     

    Every freemium requires you to pay to unlock features or bonus to exp or whatever. Those who pay, get all of them, those who don't, get nothing (and sometimes pay more). On the other hand, pay to play MMOs (that don't have paid expansions) means EVERYONE is on an even playing field. Nice try though.

    Are we greedy here? You already got some of the game for free. Be happy.

    And what is so great for everyone on the even playing field? If someone is subsidizing your gaming, isn't it fair that he got a little advantage?

    ^doesn't PvP

    Even if he doesn't so what? You think its unreasonable for the ones who invest into a freemium game to have at least some advantage? I constantly see complaints about how its so lame for a f2p game that gate anything behind paywall, and say they ought to be able to play everything for free and then "maybe" they'd pay for stuff. It makes no sense, you wouldn't have a product of value anymore. There is going to be some downside to the model, just like sub models have them.

    Take DDO. They are putting in a +4 stat tome in the cash shop. A PvE game, but a +4 stat tome "was" the rarest item (well one of the rarest) in the game. Now everyone will be forced to buy it. Good for those that don't have time for MMOs (then its the wrong genre, MMOs are most time consuming genre in industry)...want a large advantage over someone...but now everyone will be required to get the +4 stat tome.

     

    Can't see why anyone thinks pay to win is acceptable. Except maybe those who spend money to win.

     

    And this is a perfect example of why pay to play games, and not freemium, are way better. And also true free to plays, the ones that started out free...(though some are pay to win as well)

    So you point out how he doesn't pvp as if it is an at all relevant statement then use a wholly pve game except for the arena that few to none use?

     

    The guy above you makes a great point. Sub games still are pay to win. He can't participate any longer, and he is not on an equal playing field in pvp anymore since those folks are a higher level with newer and more powerful gear. So no, sub game aren't really all that different. 

     

    The +4 tome gives an advantage but those people who don't have it aren't required to have it, that is a fallacious statement. They are still relevant in the dungeons and other content even if they don't. Even non-reinc characters can particpate. They can still complete the dungeons with other first run chars and non +4'd so no its not. It is for people who would rather bypass the time investment since they value their leisure differently (so no MMOs can still be the right genre for them).

  • gordiflugordiflu Member UncommonPosts: 757

    OP: Vote with your wallet. Simple.

    I don't like freemium either. I used to play Lotro. Went freemium. Left the game. Used to play CO. Went freemium. Left the game. I went back to VG. VG went freemium. Left again.

    Not playing any MMO at the moment. If the industry wants my money, it will have to offer me something appealing. I know I am only one potential customer, but, oh man, if more people did the same instead of complaining while giving money to these companies anyway...

     

  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Member EpicPosts: 3,321
    Originally posted by RandomDown
    Originally posted by TheScavenger
    Originally posted by RandomDown
    Originally posted by TheScavenger
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by TheScavenger
     

    Every freemium requires you to pay to unlock features or bonus to exp or whatever. Those who pay, get all of them, those who don't, get nothing (and sometimes pay more). On the other hand, pay to play MMOs (that don't have paid expansions) means EVERYONE is on an even playing field. Nice try though.

    Are we greedy here? You already got some of the game for free. Be happy.

    And what is so great for everyone on the even playing field? If someone is subsidizing your gaming, isn't it fair that he got a little advantage?

    ^doesn't PvP

    Even if he doesn't so what? You think its unreasonable for the ones who invest into a freemium game to have at least some advantage? I constantly see complaints about how its so lame for a f2p game that gate anything behind paywall, and say they ought to be able to play everything for free and then "maybe" they'd pay for stuff. It makes no sense, you wouldn't have a product of value anymore. There is going to be some downside to the model, just like sub models have them.

    Take DDO. They are putting in a +4 stat tome in the cash shop. A PvE game, but a +4 stat tome "was" the rarest item (well one of the rarest) in the game. Now everyone will be forced to buy it. Good for those that don't have time for MMOs (then its the wrong genre, MMOs are most time consuming genre in industry)...want a large advantage over someone...but now everyone will be required to get the +4 stat tome.

     

    Can't see why anyone thinks pay to win is acceptable. Except maybe those who spend money to win.

     

    And this is a perfect example of why pay to play games, and not freemium, are way better. And also true free to plays, the ones that started out free...(though some are pay to win as well)

    So you point out how he doesn't pvp as if it is an at all relevant statement then use a wholly pve game except for the arena that few to none use?

     Point still resides. DDO and LOTRO have turned into pay to win games. Granted they focus on PvE...and I'm not aware of any pvp MMO that is freemium, then again I don't really know any PvP freemium MMO (all of them as far as I know are pay to play/buy to play)...

    The guy above you makes a great point. Sub games still are pay to win. He can't participate any longer, and he is not on an equal playing field in pvp anymore since those folks are a higher level with newer and more powerful gear. So no, sub game aren't really all that different. 

     If he doesn't play for a month in a free MMO, than everyone who played that month is now far ahead of him. So yes, I agree, not that different. 

    The +4 tome gives an advantage but those people who don't have it aren't required to have it, that is a fallacious statement. They are still relevant in the dungeons and other content even if they don't. Even non-reinc characters can particpate. They can still complete the dungeons with other first run chars and non +4'd so no its not. It is for people who would rather bypass the time investment since they value their leisure differently (so no MMOs can still be the right genre for them).

    Pay to win

     

    My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB: 

    https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul



  • AxiosImmortalAxiosImmortal Member UncommonPosts: 645

    F2P pay to win and P2P is different depending if they both have cash shops.

    F2P+cashshop is different then P2P without a cashshop

    People tend to pay more to win then P2P the standard 15 bucks a month.

    I wouldn't consider P2P pay to win though, its just like saying I go to play an arcade game for 50 cents to win, doesn't make sense. (Sounds like a guarantee of some sort)

     

    Looking at: The Repopulation
    Preordering: None
    Playing: Random Games

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by stealthbPS: I think you should focus more on maintaining a healthy discussion by providing arguments that counter my points instead of simply saying: "That's your opinion!" or "Link or it's false!" Use a bit of reasoning

     

    Asking you to back your claims with proof is unreasonable? That's silly. I mean, if you can't support your claims, just man up to it, but to say I'm being unreasonable for not accepting "Just look around you, man" as a a supporting argument is plain silly.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Member EpicPosts: 3,321
    Originally posted by Jonoku

    F2P pay to win and P2P is different depending if they both have cash shops.

    F2P+cashshop is different then P2P without a cashshop

    People tend to pay more to win then P2P the standard 15 bucks a month.

    I wouldn't consider P2P pay to win though, its just like saying I go to play an arcade game for 50 cents to win, doesn't make sense. (Sounds like a guarantee of some sort)

     

    What? You mean that others are paying to win at the arcade? Man that is just not fair! I should play for free! Pay to win!

    My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB: 

    https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul



  • AxiosImmortalAxiosImmortal Member UncommonPosts: 645
    Originally posted by TheScavenger
    Originally posted by Jonoku

    F2P pay to win and P2P is different depending if they both have cash shops.

    F2P+cashshop is different then P2P without a cashshop

    People tend to pay more to win then P2P the standard 15 bucks a month.

    I wouldn't consider P2P pay to win though, its just like saying I go to play an arcade game for 50 cents to win, doesn't make sense. (Sounds like a guarantee of some sort)

     

    What? You mean that others are paying to win at the arcade? Man that is just not fair! I should play for free! Pay to win!

    huh? I'm confused, looks like your talking about something I'm not talking about, lol.

    Looking at: The Repopulation
    Preordering: None
    Playing: Random Games

  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Member EpicPosts: 3,321
    Originally posted by Jonoku
    Originally posted by TheScavenger
    Originally posted by Jonoku

    F2P pay to win and P2P is different depending if they both have cash shops.

    F2P+cashshop is different then P2P without a cashshop

    People tend to pay more to win then P2P the standard 15 bucks a month.

    I wouldn't consider P2P pay to win though, its just like saying I go to play an arcade game for 50 cents to win, doesn't make sense. (Sounds like a guarantee of some sort)

     

    What? You mean that others are paying to win at the arcade? Man that is just not fair! I should play for free! Pay to win!

    huh? I'm confused, looks like your talking about something I'm not talking about, lol.

    I was just exaggerating to prove a point and agreeing with you at the same time :P

    My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB: 

    https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul



  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by TheScavenger

    Can't see why anyone thinks pay to win is acceptable. Except maybe those who spend money to win.

    Actually i never pay but i think p2w is acceptable. Very simple. If someone else is subsidizing my game, he can "win" a little more. It is only fair.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by TheScavenger

    Can't see why anyone thinks pay to win is acceptable. Except maybe those who spend money to win.

    Actually i never pay but i think p2w is acceptable. Very simple. If someone else is subsidizing my game, he can "win" a little more. It is only fair.

    Same here. My son and I have plenty of MMOs that we can play together because someone else is footing the bill. If it means they're on a flying sparkle pony while my son and I are on palominoes, we're ok with that.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Member EpicPosts: 3,321
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by TheScavenger

    Can't see why anyone thinks pay to win is acceptable. Except maybe those who spend money to win.

    Actually i never pay but i think p2w is acceptable. Very simple. If someone else is subsidizing my game, he can "win" a little more. It is only fair.

    Same here. My son and I have plenty of MMOs that we can play together because someone else is footing the bill. If it means they're on a flying sparkle pony while my son and I are on palominoes, we're ok with that.

    No wonder all the new MMOs fail. 

     

    Well except EVE, RIFT and WoW...

     

    Wonder if these are the same people that are okay with or/and buy day 1 DLC...I mean, if they want to downgrade the MMO genre so much to pay to win...than I wouldn't be surprised at all if they are fine with first day DLC...

    My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB: 

    https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul



  • stealthbrstealthbr Member UncommonPosts: 1,054
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by stealthbPS: I think you should focus more on maintaining a healthy discussion by providing arguments that counter my points instead of simply saying: "That's your opinion!" or "Link or it's false!" Use a bit of reasoning

    Asking you to back your claims with proof is unreasonable? That's silly. I mean, if you can't support your claims, just man up to it, but to say I'm being unreasonable for not accepting "Just look around you, man" as a a supporting argument is plain silly.

    Seriously? It is a bit obvious that I can't link the things you ask for. Unless I am conducting a full-on research where I am taking screenshots all the time showing people not accepting Freemiums into their parties or whatever, then there is simply no way to link what goes on within an in-game community. Your entire post does indeed derive into the following: "Link or I can't accept it" and "Your opinion!". Obviously it's my opinion. As I said before, I experienced something and then applied reason in order to deduce the cause in order to formulate said opinion. My "P.S." is a critique to your post as you bring up absolutely no point at all. You have no argument, you have no counter-points. Instead of using a bit of logic like several other posters did here in order to bring up a point of your own, you simply try to attack my points in the most ridiculous of ways.

Sign In or Register to comment.