It works, but I rather have a completely new system where PvP and PvE are similar instead. What you talk about is a fix for a system that is broken instead of making a new system that truly work.
A better AI system that makes mobs act more human would be the first logical step instead. Get rid of tanking, or to be more specific, allow body tanking but not taunts and lessen the gap between new players and old ones.
While it do feel good to increase from a peasant to a demi god as you usually do in MMOs the cost for that is too high. In PvE it means you cant group with your friends (or most other players not exactly on the same powerlevel as you have) and that you are being judged on your gear and level, in open world PvP it makes most combats either impossible or so easy a chimp would win it.
Gear should matter and so should experience to a degree but not as much as it does in most games. And more experienced players should get more options instead of just becomming more and more powerful. Let us get access to more types of weapons, other skills and so instead of giving us 100 times as many hitpoints and world PvP would become a lot more fun.
Issues with a whole new system is that it will have to go thru testing, adjusts, and dev time, even then it might not be even worth the time as the players that would populate the world might not like it. Issues also is that trully pvp an pve are not actually similar in any right, as you will fight differently in a pvp an a pve based fight. An really the trinity is not broken as much as it is out-dated. You would also have the issues that if you make pve an pvp combat to similar, the players that prefer pvp or pve combat styles could be turned off by that fact. In many ways pvp an pve should influence the other in ways, but also work as a form of stress/tension release for players that get burnt out in one form of combat. Also you are talking about a fps style of combat, which like a smroe standard mmo/rpg style of combat is geared towards different players. The system would need to combine both styles in degrees to actually draw enough support to keep it alive an healthy, if you have too many fps-pvpers or rpg-pvper leave from finding the combat not to their liking you would have an issue of population.
Improving an ai is great, but the ai will take alot longer to get to a point where it can actually simulate a human-like reaction, and i am not sure you could ever get it to where it would fully act human ever. Also if all the creatures in a world acted like humans it would not feel that deverse as really a elf, mutant, shade, or even sentient construct/robot would not ever act like a human, they would need to have completely different ai set-up to alow for each race, and monster to feel fully relised to how they should be. Also the creatures would need to go about combat differently based on how they look, and how their body is built, or they would look odd while fighting. A gaint would not fight the same or even go about combat the same as a being a fifth his/her size. I would agree the threat system would need to be redone to where it is more dymanic with each creature having differing reactions to each act, while also having differing reactions based on how badly injuried they are. I mean a injuried animal does not fight or react the same as a healthy one, nor do people, and also different types of actions taken towards an animal or person garners different reactions for verying reasons. Trully the complexity of the system of a Ai would need to be trully deep with the ways it interacts being lightyears ahead of where we have it now.
Many games have ways of allowing one to play with other players that are not the same rank/level as you, such as rifts with their metoring system. You actually de-level to the level of your choice, and your stats/gear/abilties scale back to what would be approate to that level of play (as well as quality of the gear you have for the level to.). Same could be done here for players wishing to have a feeling of progression (kinda part of what it is to role play.), while also giving them the abiltiy to actually play where, at what level, and with who they desire. Also having pvp combat actually force a de-leveling. as well as scalling back their ability as well as gear values to the common level of the group pvping, on the player's that are pvping would make the level or gear of a character less of a factor of who wins. Also also making the degree of stat spread from gear to gear less would also make gear progression only a part of the character progress, but i would also make stats only come partially from gear as an equal amount or more should come from the character too.
The strange thing is that alot of the time the player with the best gear in pve is the more knowledgeable one, that has been their the longest. Gear should be largely focused towards one or the other activity, yet no gear should be made just for one or the other activity, such as stats that only affect one form of combat. The issues also though is that knowledge/skill is somethign that can not fully able to be equalized in a game or life, and this is a game for entertainment as such you need the game to be largely entertaining to both sides of the field. Making gear as well as experince/skill matter equally would be a better idea, as gear is more of a controlable element in the game, while experince is a less controlable factor. I would say more diverity in the abilties would be better, but having access to them at the start is even better, and makign the nummber you can learn/use being finite is another great option.
Also i would love to see pvp-crafting kinda, like i had seen in other games. That crafters could actually affect pvp combat, and such in the world by what they craft, and who they craft for in the game. Like being able to starve one side of the pvp matches for mats, or items, while feeding the other side better or more items. Having many times the best items you can get in the game, but having those items require that you actually aqquire items from instances, raids, pvp matches/rewards such as from glatiator areanas, or even just in the game worlld at large. Though this would also make it that you would want a decaying durability system, that as you repair an item from usage it would slowly lose it's max durability, and so make the players have to actually seek out crafters or content to replenish their equipement. To me pvp is not jsut the act of fighting another players either in a match, or in the open world, but any action that influences the fate of that match/fight really.
I agree with you. I enjoyed the old wow vanilla pvp servers that was world pvp before battlegrounds. I'm not really sure why you posted this though. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and trashing someone else's playstyle / preferences in gaming shouldn't really be done in my opinion. Darkfall Unholy Wars is coming out on the 12th and that's a pretty hardcore pvp game. I'm certainly looking forward to it. I think it'll fit what you are looking for.
"Harrassement happens quite a bit", about as much as it does in pve games.
How is harrassment even be possible in a pve game?
I hit "LFD" go into an instanced, and group with 4 other guys. If i don't like any of them, i hit the "quit" button. They can't find me from that point on.
So tell me, how is it possible to harass me at all?
Now I know this may come as something of a shock to you, but some people do actually treat mmos as a bit more than a lobby game for dungeons.
Then it is a problem for that "some" people .. not me, and many that play MMOs like a lobby game.
In fact, how is harassment possible in a open world pve game, except kill stealing? And as long as you tag the mob fast enough, no one can touch it?
"Harrassement happens quite a bit", about as much as it does in pve games.
How is harrassment even be possible in a pve game?
I hit "LFD" go into an instanced, and group with 4 other guys. If i don't like any of them, i hit the "quit" button. They can't find me from that point on.
So tell me, how is it possible to harass me at all?
Now I know this may come as something of a shock to you, but some people do actually treat mmos as a bit more than a lobby game for dungeons.
Then it is a problem for that "some" people .. not me, and many that play MMOs like a lobby game.
In fact, how is harassment possible in a open world pve game, except kill stealing? And as long as you tag the mob fast enough, no one can touch it?
Well you have training of mobs onto a player, as a method of pushing them out of an area or zone of the open world by another player as one method of harrassent. Tag sniping by players that do not need the targets that another player is seeking such as tagging the mob just before they tag it, and then watching them get nothing or very little for thier efot, atleast outside a shared tagging sstem that allows you to gain credit an items from an already tagged mob. Also in many ways the things that are useed to combat this both bring in certain players, and yet push others away as well by making the world feel more correct by their own perception. You can also have players that will puposely wipe groups of players they are in group with, or near as a way of ruining their gameplay unless they move out/awa from that player. Also you can have content locking by guilds of such players that kill, or clear entire areas of mobs an bosses/rare mobs keping other people an guilds from gaining access to that content. An then you have even more that can be done that is determental to the experince and enjoyment of other players, by another player or group of players actions. Harrassment in a pve is much less of a direct harrassment like corpse camping, ganking, and such is yet it is still another player/group of players denying a player or group access to the content of the game world to play.
PvP, to me, should be something I engage in when I choose to do so, not when someone else chooses to do so. I don't care if this elicits cries of "carebear" or whatever. I'm not playing these games for someone elses entertainment, I'm playing it for my own. As such, a system like Guild Wars 2, which fully segregates the PvP from the PvE, works ideally for me. If I feel like kicking back and running events, farming materials, doing dungeons, exploring, etc. I can do so at my leisure without worrying about someone who's over-compensating for a depressing real life trying to gank me in game in order to give himself the illusion of being significant. If I want to PvP, I can do so in a balanced arena style setting (sPvP) or in a more chaotic setting (WvW), which is where I actually spend most of my time. I don't dislike PvP at all... I've over 5000 kills in WvW so far and have a blast there. But it's mutually agreed to death and destruction. I'm there by choice. The person/group/zerg I'm clashing with is/are also there by choice.
This whole thought that there should be "penalties" for dying in PvP... completely stupid. Oh, but it makes it mean something! Horsecrap. You're pixels beat up his pixels. Pull the plug on the server and it's like you never existed in game anyhow, so giving some basement dweller the power to punish someone against their will else who's simply playing to have fun... ridiculous, and people should be embarassed for encouraging that. Seriously, what the heck is wrong with these people? You take pride in ruining someone elses fun? Really? Grats, you're an eBully, but only until you step away from the computer.
PvP should be consentual. It shouldn't be designed to "punish" people to the extent their fun is demolished, there no need nor sense in that. It should be fun. Win, lose or draw, both parties should still be able to hop right back into the action without the childishness of corpse-camping or the fear that some clown can now take your gear or weapons that you put who knows how much time and effort into acquiring. It should give you the option of being in a small and controlled environment or chaotic and massive one. The amount of people that would settle for open world gank feasting simply amazes me.
I think the reason mmos are moving more to instanced PvP "trash" is because it simply put works better than WPvP for a lot of games.
There are no right and wrong features to add to a game, and no glove fits all. Some mmos benefit from a more structured PvP experience, others suffer for it. It really dephends on what works best with the rest of the game. Design is law, and nothing mixes and matches all that well with everything and what may work for EVE Online might end up detracting from the experience in a game like Guild Wars 2.
Originally posted by mmoDAD When did players start to accept the fact that it's okay for PvP to be completely instanced?EverQuest II's 2006 Nagafen Server was a World PvP Server. It worked.SWG's PvP was World PvP. It worked. Ever since WoW, PvP has become pure trash. And to make matters worse, "World PvP" has become such a loose term that anything that isn't completely structured is considered World PvP, e.g., SWTOR's Ilum - a dedicated area for PvP. This isn't World PvP. It's trash. Servers should go like this:Server #1 PvE (Optional Battlegrounds)Server #2 PvP (World PvP) I'll tell you why people waste time in these redundant battlegrounds. It's because they are so helpless and consumed with the damn carrot dangling in front of their faces. You want that little piece of reward that everyone will eventually have. It's boring. It's an embarrassment to the genre.I don't want to see anyone fail. However, it would be a lie to not say I enjoy watching these Instanced PvP games turn into failed FTP games.
Personally I like it that way. Not settled, I like it.
Originally posted by DavisFlight Originally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by ShakyMo Players didn't settle for instanced pvp It's just in 90% of post wow mmos its the only pvp available. If players had decided instanced pvp was the best. There would be more players in spvp than in WvW in gw2 and planetside 2 wouldn't be the huge success it is. It took developers 8 years, but finally they realised there's a market for players that don't want the tacked on afterthought trash that is wow style pvp.
Except WoW has OWPvP servers. Players are forced into PvE servers...they are choosing to play those servers. Same for Rift...OWPvP servers are available, most people pick the PvE servers. Thats probably because its very obvious the game is NOT designed for OWPVP.
If open world pvp doesn't improve any game it's added to, then open world pvp isn't inherently better than other forms of pvp. That doesn't mean it's worse either. It just isn't automagically better.
We don't even have to look at WoW. Look at Eve. The majority of players are in the relatively safe space. PvP isn't impossible, but it's avoidable and insurance offsets any real losses from getting killed. In a game that is all about free for all, open world pvp, most people have chosen to use the mechanic in the game that allow them to have some measure of control over when and where they engage in PvP and to mitigate any losses suffered from losing in PvP.
I'm not sure why anyone would believe that open world PvP or free for all PvP has some inherent advantage over other forms of PvP. It's not any better or any worse than other forms of PvP. The difference is that more players prefer to have control over when and where they engage in PvP rather than having other players make that decision.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Then it is a problem for that "some" people .. not me, and many that play MMOs like a lobby game.
In fact, how is harassment possible in a open world pve game, except kill stealing? And as long as you tag the mob fast enough, no one can touch it?
There are a multitude of ways to harrass/disrupt someone in an open world pve game and many ways of continuing that after they have "stuck you on ignore dude". These range from mechanical/game world impacting strategies (lock downs, taps, trains) through group/event/rp/guild disruption, to direct personal attacks across a variety of mediums.
There will no doubt be countless other methods I am unaware of given that I don't spend my time thinking how to grief the crap out of other players.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Originally posted by bunnyhopper Originally posted by nariusseldonOriginally posted by bunnyhopperOriginally posted by nariusseldonOriginally posted by bunnyhopper
Then it is a problem for that "some" people .. not me, and many that play MMOs like a lobby game.In fact, how is harassment possible in a open world pve game, except kill stealing? And as long as you tag the mob fast enough, no one can touch it?There are a multitude of ways to harrass/disrupt someone in an open world pve game and many ways of continuing that after they have "stuck you on ignore dude". These range from mechanical/game world impacting strategies (lock downs, taps, trains) through group/event/rp/guild disruption, to direct personal attacks across a variety of mediums.
There will no doubt be countless other methods I am unaware of given that I don't spend my time thinking how to grief the crap out of other players.
It is entirely possible to grief people in PvE games, especially if there is a flagging system in place. The difference is that the same behavior on an OWPvP server or a PvP based game is acceptable behavior, while in the PvE server/game it's not acceptable behavior. I think that's what people are using the term "Griefing" for. Things that are not acceptable on a PvE server.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
It is entirely possible to grief people in PvE games, especially if there is a flagging system in place. The difference is that the same behavior on an OWPvP server or a PvP based game is acceptable behavior, while in the PvE server/game it's not acceptable behavior. I think that's what people are using the term "Griefing" for. Things that are not acceptable on a PvE server.
Smashing someone in the face in general would probably be pretty unacceptable to most, but I don't run around the houses screaming bloody murder and then ring the police every time I watch a boxing match. Just as I don't think "omg that guy is harrassing me, what a sociopathic fker!" when I get ganked in a pvp game.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
PvP, to me, should be something I engage in when I choose to do so, not when someone else chooses to do so. I don't care if this elicits cries of "carebear" or whatever. I'm not playing these games for someone elses entertainment, I'm playing it for my own. As such, a system like Guild Wars 2, which fully segregates the PvP from the PvE, works ideally for me. If I feel like kicking back and running events, farming materials, doing dungeons, exploring, etc. I can do so at my leisure without worrying about someone who's over-compensating for a depressing real life trying to gank me in game in order to give himself the illusion of being significant. If I want to PvP, I can do so in a balanced arena style setting (sPvP) or in a more chaotic setting (WvW), which is where I actually spend most of my time. I don't dislike PvP at all... I've over 5000 kills in WvW so far and have a blast there. But it's mutually agreed to death and destruction. I'm there by choice. The person/group/zerg I'm clashing with is/are also there by choice.
This whole thought that there should be "penalties" for dying in PvP... completely stupid. Oh, but it makes it mean something! Horsecrap. You're pixels beat up his pixels. Pull the plug on the server and it's like you never existed in game anyhow, so giving some basement dweller the power to punish someone against their will else who's simply playing to have fun... ridiculous, and people should be embarassed for encouraging that. Seriously, what the heck is wrong with these people? You take pride in ruining someone elses fun? Really? Grats, you're an eBully, but only until you step away from the computer.
PvP should be consentual. It shouldn't be designed to "punish" people to the extent their fun is demolished, there no need nor sense in that. It should be fun. Win, lose or draw, both parties should still be able to hop right back into the action without the childishness of corpse-camping or the fear that some clown can now take your gear or weapons that you put who knows how much time and effort into acquiring. It should give you the option of being in a small and controlled environment or chaotic and massive one. The amount of people that would settle for open world gank feasting simply amazes me.
First off your opinion is fine as it is your opinion on the matter, but trying to say that what others find entertaining or fun, and which gives their game more meaning is somehow wrong is well shallow, and also very telling that you are a extremely closed minded person. I play both Open world, open world FFA, Instance, and perma-death pvp styles alongside many of the pve styles i also play. Having your actions weither it be attacking a mob that is stronger than you, pvping against someone in the open world, or just taking a risk, and knowing that you could lose hours or progression does appeal an give more meeaning/impact to the way you play. Also when it comes down to it if you play on a game or server that is created an marketed for being a open pvp and open world playstyle, you are accepting that you will have to deal with being attacked or killed at any moment in that game setting, and that does make the pvp in that setting completely consentual as you both knew you would be attack/ganked in that game at some point. There is a reason you would have a choice of pvp, and pve geared server, and content, which is that certain styles of play are not for everyone's taste, just as not all food is going to be liked by everyone in the world.
It amazes me more that so many on both sides of the debate are so closed minded, and arrogant as to think that one methoid, and style of fun is correct an right, while the other is wrong an evil, since fun an enjoyment of an activity is subjective to what each person enjoys, and finds engaging to do for fun. It is jsut like two religous groups argueing over which one iss right, and good, and whcih is evil an corrupt since in the end both are not going to say they are the evil/corrupt ones. Just move on respect that you have differing opinion, and tastes in things, and have fun doing what you enjoy allowing the other to do so as well. All forms of entertainment should be supported in some fashion weither be in a features of a game, certain niche games, or what other options might arise. In the end you have a choice to play a game or not based on what it offers, and so if you play a game with somethign that does not suit your form of fun than you made the choice to lose youur enjoyment at the moment you started playing.
It is entirely possible to grief people in PvE games, especially if there is a flagging system in place. The difference is that the same behavior on an OWPvP server or a PvP based game is acceptable behavior, while in the PvE server/game it's not acceptable behavior. I think that's what people are using the term "Griefing" for. Things that are not acceptable on a PvE server.
Smashing someone in the face in general would probably be pretty unacceptable to most, but I don't run around the houses screaming bloody murder and then ring the police every time I watch a boxing match. Just as I don't think "omg that guy is harrassing me, what a sociopathic fker!" when I get ganked in a pvp game.
It's only a major problem if the people are actually logging into the PvP servers or the PvP games. If they consider the behavior that happens on a PvP server or PvP game to be griefing, and then they don't login, then the system is working as expected. People are exercising their ability to choose.
There are lots of actual issues though. There's a gap between how games are advertised and how the experience actually is. This isn't just an issue with PvP either, but it's part of the problem. Games like SWToR with little or no open world PvP advertising the struggle with another faction, when it's a miniscule part of the game. Games like Darkfall looking like WoW with hard PvE content. The wrong players end up in the wrong games and it doesn't take many of them for raise a stink.
Of course, there are players who should know better ending up in the wrong games too. You can't really tell the difference between a new player who got killed in Darkfall, thinking there would be some sort of 'honorable' combat, and the person who's played WoW for a year or more complaining about the meaninglessness of the OWPvP. Not on forums anyway.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
When did players start to accept the fact that it's okay for PvP to be completely instanced?
EverQuest II's 2006 Nagafen Server was a World PvP Server. It worked.
SWG's PvP was World PvP. It worked.
Ever since WoW, PvP has become pure trash. And to make matters worse, "World PvP" has become such a loose term that anything that isn't completely structured is considered World PvP, e.g., SWTOR's Ilum - a dedicated area for PvP. This isn't World PvP. It's trash.
I'll tell you why people waste time in these redundant battlegrounds. It's because they are so helpless and consumed with the damn carrot dangling in front of their faces. You want that little piece of reward that everyone will eventually have. It's boring. It's an embarrassment to the genre.
I don't want to see anyone fail. However, it would be a lie to not say I enjoy watching these Instanced PvP games turn into failed FTP games.
I like my PvP optional, if at all, as does the majority of the market it seems. You don't, and that's fine, but your ability to be 'amazed' by people not liking what you like is entertaining.
Do you enjoy watching the 'failed' open world PvP games (such as Aion and the like) fo F2P as well? Just out of interest I mean...
Best pvp hands downs is in age of wushu/wulin, everything else doesnt even beging to compare.
But it is true that the mmo market is full of casual gamers and pve hardcore gamers, so its good when theres a game for each kind of gamer, would be awful if you had a title that wanted to please everybody.
It's only a major problem if the people are actually logging into the PvP servers or the PvP games. If they consider the behavior that happens on a PvP server or PvP game to be griefing, and then they don't login, then the system is working as expected. People are exercising their ability to choose.
There are lots of actual issues though. There's a gap between how games are advertised and how the experience actually is. This isn't just an issue with PvP either, but it's part of the problem. Games like SWToR with little or no open world PvP advertising the struggle with another faction, when it's a miniscule part of the game. Games like Darkfall looking like WoW with hard PvE content. The wrong players end up in the wrong games and it doesn't take many of them for raise a stink.
Of course, there are players who should know better ending up in the wrong games too. You can't really tell the difference between a new player who got killed in Darkfall, thinking there would be some sort of 'honorable' combat, and the person who's played WoW for a year or more complaining about the meaninglessness of the OWPvP. Not on forums anyway.
I agree to an extent with most of that. But in all honesty games like EVE and Darkfall seem to go out of their way to point out the fact that they are "ruthless" and a casual glance at the forums of said games will further enforce that.
Moreover, quite often on these forums we have people who don't even bother playing said games, before blurting out "it's wall to wall griefing!!!".
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
World PvP is boring. It's dull and uninteresting. Even when it's not simply one player attacking and ganking another who is trying to do something else, it's just a mindless deathmatch. It's fighting for no actual purpose besides fighting. Yeah, some people enjoy stalking and getting the drop on other players, and sometimes it's fun to be on your guard, but most of the time, world PvP is only fun for the ganker. It very seldom turns into those big TM v Southshore battles that everyone remembers so fondly. Most of the time, it's some jerk getting his jollies by getting in someone else's way.
Instanced PvP, meanwhile, usually has a purpose. I love the battleground system. I like my fighting to have some kind of purpose beyond just killing. Capture the flag or territory control battles... so much more fun than simple deathmatches. The added layers of complexity and teamwork shred the superficial tactics of a small group or solo battle.
Not to say that a game based around open PvP can't be great. But when you jam into a mold where it doesn't really fit, everything, including the PvP, suffers. World PvP is a really striking example where trying to shove different game styles into a single game really doesn't work.
Important facts: 1. Free to Play games are poorly made. 2. Casuals are not all idiots, but idiots call themselves casuals. 3. Great solo and group content are not mutually exclusive, but they suffer when one is shoved into the mold of the other. The same is true of PvP and PvE. 4. Community is more important than you think.
PvP, to me, should be something I engage in when I choose to do so, not when someone else chooses to do so. I don't care if this elicits cries of "carebear" or whatever. I'm not playing these games for someone elses entertainment, I'm playing it for my own. As such, a system like Guild Wars 2, which fully segregates the PvP from the PvE, works ideally for me. If I feel like kicking back and running events, farming materials, doing dungeons, exploring, etc. I can do so at my leisure without worrying about someone who's over-compensating for a depressing real life trying to gank me in game in order to give himself the illusion of being significant. If I want to PvP, I can do so in a balanced arena style setting (sPvP) or in a more chaotic setting (WvW), which is where I actually spend most of my time. I don't dislike PvP at all... I've over 5000 kills in WvW so far and have a blast there. But it's mutually agreed to death and destruction. I'm there by choice. The person/group/zerg I'm clashing with is/are also there by choice.
This whole thought that there should be "penalties" for dying in PvP... completely stupid. Oh, but it makes it mean something! Horsecrap. You're pixels beat up his pixels. Pull the plug on the server and it's like you never existed in game anyhow, so giving some basement dweller the power to punish someone against their will else who's simply playing to have fun... ridiculous, and people should be embarassed for encouraging that. Seriously, what the heck is wrong with these people? You take pride in ruining someone elses fun? Really? Grats, you're an eBully, but only until you step away from the computer.
PvP should be consentual. It shouldn't be designed to "punish" people to the extent their fun is demolished, there no need nor sense in that. It should be fun. Win, lose or draw, both parties should still be able to hop right back into the action without the childishness of corpse-camping or the fear that some clown can now take your gear or weapons that you put who knows how much time and effort into acquiring. It should give you the option of being in a small and controlled environment or chaotic and massive one. The amount of people that would settle for open world gank feasting simply amazes me.
First off your opinion is fine as it is your opinion on the matter, but trying to say that what others find entertaining or fun, and which gives their game more meaning is somehow wrong is well shallow, and also very telling that you are a extremely closed minded person. I play both Open world, open world FFA, Instance, and perma-death pvp styles alongside many of the pve styles i also play. Having your actions weither it be attacking a mob that is stronger than you, pvping against someone in the open world, or just taking a risk, and knowing that you could lose hours or progression does appeal an give more meeaning/impact to the way you play. Also when it comes down to it if you play on a game or server that is created an marketed for being a open pvp and open world playstyle, you are accepting that you will have to deal with being attacked or killed at any moment in that game setting, and that does make the pvp in that setting completely consentual as you both knew you would be attack/ganked in that game at some point. There is a reason you would have a choice of pvp, and pve geared server, and content, which is that certain styles of play are not for everyone's taste, just as not all food is going to be liked by everyone in the world.
It amazes me more that so many on both sides of the debate are so closed minded, and arrogant as to think that one methoid, and style of fun is correct an right, while the other is wrong an evil, since fun an enjoyment of an activity is subjective to what each person enjoys, and finds engaging to do for fun. It is jsut like two religous groups argueing over which one iss right, and good, and whcih is evil an corrupt since in the end both are not going to say they are the evil/corrupt ones. Just move on respect that you have differing opinion, and tastes in things, and have fun doing what you enjoy allowing the other to do so as well. All forms of entertainment should be supported in some fashion weither be in a features of a game, certain niche games, or what other options might arise. In the end you have a choice to play a game or not based on what it offers, and so if you play a game with somethign that does not suit your form of fun than you made the choice to lose youur enjoyment at the moment you started playing.
Note the first three words... "PvP, to me". The entirety of it is my personal opinion on the matter, nothing more. Now, on the flip side, I played EvE online for quite some time and enjoyed the hell out of wormhole living.
How strange now that I think about it... technically EvE Online is all instanced PvP, yet it's one of the most cut-throat PvP games out there.
Final aside... your last statement - "you made the choice to lose your enjoyment the moment you started playing" - first, most people don't realize the impact or degree PvP will have on them when they first venture into a new game. This should be obvious. Sure, the forum grazing greybeards will, but the newer crowd... not so much. Second, before you preach about who's close-minded or considers their opinion as fact... well, reread that a few times.
Like any game if you have no objectives to full-fill such as camp farming in pve without questing, gathering without crafting., and many more examples the fun of that activity diminishes over time regardless of it being world or instance, or pve activities. Now if in a game like wow you had a system where areas or places in the world could be owned, captured, and gives your side advantages as well as keeping these places constently contested or near constently contested it would give more meaning to world pvp in the game. As just like in instanced pvp you give the pvp in the world a focus, and meaning outside of merely being ganking, stalking, and single warefare. Things like capturing opposing faction holdings, and slowly pushing that faction out of that zone, making it safer for your own faction to play in that zone, but yet allowing the opposing faction to do the same too.
Originally posted by LhynnSaint I dont even know why the OP is complaining, there are games with open world pvp, Lineage 2 is an example of that.
Because number of open world pvp games very limited, Lineage 2 is getting really old, RF online, R2 online are a bit younger but still old. And every year we got 3-4 MMO titles that are very lacking in pvp department.SWTOR, Rift, TSW good pve games but thats about it.
I agree with OP pvp in modern MMO is nothing but trash.
Its funny so many here keep using the word "ganked" as an arguement against open world pvp. Because in all my years gaming and playing ive been ganked more in instanced warzone/raids than i have in the open world.
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Issues with a whole new system is that it will have to go thru testing, adjusts, and dev time, even then it might not be even worth the time as the players that would populate the world might not like it. Issues also is that trully pvp an pve are not actually similar in any right, as you will fight differently in a pvp an a pve based fight. An really the trinity is not broken as much as it is out-dated. You would also have the issues that if you make pve an pvp combat to similar, the players that prefer pvp or pve combat styles could be turned off by that fact. In many ways pvp an pve should influence the other in ways, but also work as a form of stress/tension release for players that get burnt out in one form of combat. Also you are talking about a fps style of combat, which like a smroe standard mmo/rpg style of combat is geared towards different players. The system would need to combine both styles in degrees to actually draw enough support to keep it alive an healthy, if you have too many fps-pvpers or rpg-pvper leave from finding the combat not to their liking you would have an issue of population.
Improving an ai is great, but the ai will take alot longer to get to a point where it can actually simulate a human-like reaction, and i am not sure you could ever get it to where it would fully act human ever. Also if all the creatures in a world acted like humans it would not feel that deverse as really a elf, mutant, shade, or even sentient construct/robot would not ever act like a human, they would need to have completely different ai set-up to alow for each race, and monster to feel fully relised to how they should be. Also the creatures would need to go about combat differently based on how they look, and how their body is built, or they would look odd while fighting. A gaint would not fight the same or even go about combat the same as a being a fifth his/her size. I would agree the threat system would need to be redone to where it is more dymanic with each creature having differing reactions to each act, while also having differing reactions based on how badly injuried they are. I mean a injuried animal does not fight or react the same as a healthy one, nor do people, and also different types of actions taken towards an animal or person garners different reactions for verying reasons. Trully the complexity of the system of a Ai would need to be trully deep with the ways it interacts being lightyears ahead of where we have it now.
Many games have ways of allowing one to play with other players that are not the same rank/level as you, such as rifts with their metoring system. You actually de-level to the level of your choice, and your stats/gear/abilties scale back to what would be approate to that level of play (as well as quality of the gear you have for the level to.). Same could be done here for players wishing to have a feeling of progression (kinda part of what it is to role play.), while also giving them the abiltiy to actually play where, at what level, and with who they desire. Also having pvp combat actually force a de-leveling. as well as scalling back their ability as well as gear values to the common level of the group pvping, on the player's that are pvping would make the level or gear of a character less of a factor of who wins. Also also making the degree of stat spread from gear to gear less would also make gear progression only a part of the character progress, but i would also make stats only come partially from gear as an equal amount or more should come from the character too.
The strange thing is that alot of the time the player with the best gear in pve is the more knowledgeable one, that has been their the longest. Gear should be largely focused towards one or the other activity, yet no gear should be made just for one or the other activity, such as stats that only affect one form of combat. The issues also though is that knowledge/skill is somethign that can not fully able to be equalized in a game or life, and this is a game for entertainment as such you need the game to be largely entertaining to both sides of the field. Making gear as well as experince/skill matter equally would be a better idea, as gear is more of a controlable element in the game, while experince is a less controlable factor. I would say more diverity in the abilties would be better, but having access to them at the start is even better, and makign the nummber you can learn/use being finite is another great option.
Also i would love to see pvp-crafting kinda, like i had seen in other games. That crafters could actually affect pvp combat, and such in the world by what they craft, and who they craft for in the game. Like being able to starve one side of the pvp matches for mats, or items, while feeding the other side better or more items. Having many times the best items you can get in the game, but having those items require that you actually aqquire items from instances, raids, pvp matches/rewards such as from glatiator areanas, or even just in the game worlld at large. Though this would also make it that you would want a decaying durability system, that as you repair an item from usage it would slowly lose it's max durability, and so make the players have to actually seek out crafters or content to replenish their equipement. To me pvp is not jsut the act of fighting another players either in a match, or in the open world, but any action that influences the fate of that match/fight really.
You are so right, screw instanced PvP! -,-
Open World PvP is GREAT
I mean I love it, I get frustrated when ganked or something too but all in all its just great.
Look at Lineage II, this game wouldn't even work without OWPVP and it's been SUPER successful for YEARS now.
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Then it is a problem for that "some" people .. not me, and many that play MMOs like a lobby game.
In fact, how is harassment possible in a open world pve game, except kill stealing? And as long as you tag the mob fast enough, no one can touch it?
Well you have training of mobs onto a player, as a method of pushing them out of an area or zone of the open world by another player as one method of harrassent. Tag sniping by players that do not need the targets that another player is seeking such as tagging the mob just before they tag it, and then watching them get nothing or very little for thier efot, atleast outside a shared tagging sstem that allows you to gain credit an items from an already tagged mob. Also in many ways the things that are useed to combat this both bring in certain players, and yet push others away as well by making the world feel more correct by their own perception. You can also have players that will puposely wipe groups of players they are in group with, or near as a way of ruining their gameplay unless they move out/awa from that player. Also you can have content locking by guilds of such players that kill, or clear entire areas of mobs an bosses/rare mobs keping other people an guilds from gaining access to that content. An then you have even more that can be done that is determental to the experince and enjoyment of other players, by another player or group of players actions. Harrassment in a pve is much less of a direct harrassment like corpse camping, ganking, and such is yet it is still another player/group of players denying a player or group access to the content of the game world to play.
PvP, to me, should be something I engage in when I choose to do so, not when someone else chooses to do so. I don't care if this elicits cries of "carebear" or whatever. I'm not playing these games for someone elses entertainment, I'm playing it for my own. As such, a system like Guild Wars 2, which fully segregates the PvP from the PvE, works ideally for me. If I feel like kicking back and running events, farming materials, doing dungeons, exploring, etc. I can do so at my leisure without worrying about someone who's over-compensating for a depressing real life trying to gank me in game in order to give himself the illusion of being significant. If I want to PvP, I can do so in a balanced arena style setting (sPvP) or in a more chaotic setting (WvW), which is where I actually spend most of my time. I don't dislike PvP at all... I've over 5000 kills in WvW so far and have a blast there. But it's mutually agreed to death and destruction. I'm there by choice. The person/group/zerg I'm clashing with is/are also there by choice.
This whole thought that there should be "penalties" for dying in PvP... completely stupid. Oh, but it makes it mean something! Horsecrap. You're pixels beat up his pixels. Pull the plug on the server and it's like you never existed in game anyhow, so giving some basement dweller the power to punish someone against their will else who's simply playing to have fun... ridiculous, and people should be embarassed for encouraging that. Seriously, what the heck is wrong with these people? You take pride in ruining someone elses fun? Really? Grats, you're an eBully, but only until you step away from the computer.
PvP should be consentual. It shouldn't be designed to "punish" people to the extent their fun is demolished, there no need nor sense in that. It should be fun. Win, lose or draw, both parties should still be able to hop right back into the action without the childishness of corpse-camping or the fear that some clown can now take your gear or weapons that you put who knows how much time and effort into acquiring. It should give you the option of being in a small and controlled environment or chaotic and massive one. The amount of people that would settle for open world gank feasting simply amazes me.
Oderint, dum metuant.
I think the reason mmos are moving more to instanced PvP "trash" is because it simply put works better than WPvP for a lot of games.
There are no right and wrong features to add to a game, and no glove fits all. Some mmos benefit from a more structured PvP experience, others suffer for it. It really dephends on what works best with the rest of the game. Design is law, and nothing mixes and matches all that well with everything and what may work for EVE Online might end up detracting from the experience in a game like Guild Wars 2.
Personally I like it that way. Not settled, I like it.
Thats probably because its very obvious the game is NOT designed for OWPVP.
If open world pvp doesn't improve any game it's added to, then open world pvp isn't inherently better than other forms of pvp. That doesn't mean it's worse either. It just isn't automagically better.
We don't even have to look at WoW. Look at Eve. The majority of players are in the relatively safe space. PvP isn't impossible, but it's avoidable and insurance offsets any real losses from getting killed. In a game that is all about free for all, open world pvp, most people have chosen to use the mechanic in the game that allow them to have some measure of control over when and where they engage in PvP and to mitigate any losses suffered from losing in PvP.
I'm not sure why anyone would believe that open world PvP or free for all PvP has some inherent advantage over other forms of PvP. It's not any better or any worse than other forms of PvP. The difference is that more players prefer to have control over when and where they engage in PvP rather than having other players make that decision.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
There are a multitude of ways to harrass/disrupt someone in an open world pve game and many ways of continuing that after they have "stuck you on ignore dude". These range from mechanical/game world impacting strategies (lock downs, taps, trains) through group/event/rp/guild disruption, to direct personal attacks across a variety of mediums.
There will no doubt be countless other methods I am unaware of given that I don't spend my time thinking how to grief the crap out of other players.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Then it is a problem for that "some" people .. not me, and many that play MMOs like a lobby game. In fact, how is harassment possible in a open world pve game, except kill stealing? And as long as you tag the mob fast enough, no one can touch it?
There are a multitude of ways to harrass/disrupt someone in an open world pve game and many ways of continuing that after they have "stuck you on ignore dude". These range from mechanical/game world impacting strategies (lock downs, taps, trains) through group/event/rp/guild disruption, to direct personal attacks across a variety of mediums.
There will no doubt be countless other methods I am unaware of given that I don't spend my time thinking how to grief the crap out of other players.
It is entirely possible to grief people in PvE games, especially if there is a flagging system in place. The difference is that the same behavior on an OWPvP server or a PvP based game is acceptable behavior, while in the PvE server/game it's not acceptable behavior. I think that's what people are using the term "Griefing" for. Things that are not acceptable on a PvE server.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Smashing someone in the face in general would probably be pretty unacceptable to most, but I don't run around the houses screaming bloody murder and then ring the police every time I watch a boxing match. Just as I don't think "omg that guy is harrassing me, what a sociopathic fker!" when I get ganked in a pvp game.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
First off your opinion is fine as it is your opinion on the matter, but trying to say that what others find entertaining or fun, and which gives their game more meaning is somehow wrong is well shallow, and also very telling that you are a extremely closed minded person. I play both Open world, open world FFA, Instance, and perma-death pvp styles alongside many of the pve styles i also play. Having your actions weither it be attacking a mob that is stronger than you, pvping against someone in the open world, or just taking a risk, and knowing that you could lose hours or progression does appeal an give more meeaning/impact to the way you play. Also when it comes down to it if you play on a game or server that is created an marketed for being a open pvp and open world playstyle, you are accepting that you will have to deal with being attacked or killed at any moment in that game setting, and that does make the pvp in that setting completely consentual as you both knew you would be attack/ganked in that game at some point. There is a reason you would have a choice of pvp, and pve geared server, and content, which is that certain styles of play are not for everyone's taste, just as not all food is going to be liked by everyone in the world.
It amazes me more that so many on both sides of the debate are so closed minded, and arrogant as to think that one methoid, and style of fun is correct an right, while the other is wrong an evil, since fun an enjoyment of an activity is subjective to what each person enjoys, and finds engaging to do for fun. It is jsut like two religous groups argueing over which one iss right, and good, and whcih is evil an corrupt since in the end both are not going to say they are the evil/corrupt ones. Just move on respect that you have differing opinion, and tastes in things, and have fun doing what you enjoy allowing the other to do so as well. All forms of entertainment should be supported in some fashion weither be in a features of a game, certain niche games, or what other options might arise. In the end you have a choice to play a game or not based on what it offers, and so if you play a game with somethign that does not suit your form of fun than you made the choice to lose youur enjoyment at the moment you started playing.
It's only a major problem if the people are actually logging into the PvP servers or the PvP games. If they consider the behavior that happens on a PvP server or PvP game to be griefing, and then they don't login, then the system is working as expected. People are exercising their ability to choose.
There are lots of actual issues though. There's a gap between how games are advertised and how the experience actually is. This isn't just an issue with PvP either, but it's part of the problem. Games like SWToR with little or no open world PvP advertising the struggle with another faction, when it's a miniscule part of the game. Games like Darkfall looking like WoW with hard PvE content. The wrong players end up in the wrong games and it doesn't take many of them for raise a stink.
Of course, there are players who should know better ending up in the wrong games too. You can't really tell the difference between a new player who got killed in Darkfall, thinking there would be some sort of 'honorable' combat, and the person who's played WoW for a year or more complaining about the meaninglessness of the OWPvP. Not on forums anyway.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I like my PvP optional, if at all, as does the majority of the market it seems. You don't, and that's fine, but your ability to be 'amazed' by people not liking what you like is entertaining.
Do you enjoy watching the 'failed' open world PvP games (such as Aion and the like) fo F2P as well? Just out of interest I mean...
Best pvp hands downs is in age of wushu/wulin, everything else doesnt even beging to compare.
But it is true that the mmo market is full of casual gamers and pve hardcore gamers, so its good when theres a game for each kind of gamer, would be awful if you had a title that wanted to please everybody.
I agree to an extent with most of that. But in all honesty games like EVE and Darkfall seem to go out of their way to point out the fact that they are "ruthless" and a casual glance at the forums of said games will further enforce that.
Moreover, quite often on these forums we have people who don't even bother playing said games, before blurting out "it's wall to wall griefing!!!".
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
World PvP is boring. It's dull and uninteresting. Even when it's not simply one player attacking and ganking another who is trying to do something else, it's just a mindless deathmatch. It's fighting for no actual purpose besides fighting. Yeah, some people enjoy stalking and getting the drop on other players, and sometimes it's fun to be on your guard, but most of the time, world PvP is only fun for the ganker. It very seldom turns into those big TM v Southshore battles that everyone remembers so fondly. Most of the time, it's some jerk getting his jollies by getting in someone else's way.
Instanced PvP, meanwhile, usually has a purpose. I love the battleground system. I like my fighting to have some kind of purpose beyond just killing. Capture the flag or territory control battles... so much more fun than simple deathmatches. The added layers of complexity and teamwork shred the superficial tactics of a small group or solo battle.
Not to say that a game based around open PvP can't be great. But when you jam into a mold where it doesn't really fit, everything, including the PvP, suffers. World PvP is a really striking example where trying to shove different game styles into a single game really doesn't work.
Important facts:
1. Free to Play games are poorly made.
2. Casuals are not all idiots, but idiots call themselves casuals.
3. Great solo and group content are not mutually exclusive, but they suffer when one is shoved into the mold of the other. The same is true of PvP and PvE.
4. Community is more important than you think.
Note the first three words... "PvP, to me". The entirety of it is my personal opinion on the matter, nothing more. Now, on the flip side, I played EvE online for quite some time and enjoyed the hell out of wormhole living.
How strange now that I think about it... technically EvE Online is all instanced PvP, yet it's one of the most cut-throat PvP games out there.
Final aside... your last statement - "you made the choice to lose your enjoyment the moment you started playing" - first, most people don't realize the impact or degree PvP will have on them when they first venture into a new game. This should be obvious. Sure, the forum grazing greybeards will, but the newer crowd... not so much. Second, before you preach about who's close-minded or considers their opinion as fact... well, reread that a few times.
Oderint, dum metuant.
Because number of open world pvp games very limited, Lineage 2 is getting really old, RF online, R2 online are a bit younger but still old. And every year we got 3-4 MMO titles that are very lacking in pvp department.SWTOR, Rift, TSW good pve games but thats about it.
I agree with OP pvp in modern MMO is nothing but trash.
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Its funny so many here keep using the word "ganked" as an arguement against open world pvp. Because in all my years gaming and playing ive been ganked more in instanced warzone/raids than i have in the open world.