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The amount of people who settle for Instanced PvP Trash simply amazes me.

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  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by bunnyhopper

    Originally posted by Laughing-man


     

    Most MMO's have ingnore lists - if you are getting harrassed - use it. If it continues, use the report system. It is a non-issue in PvE any more with chat. That is not griefing to me - that is just immature.

     

    PvP griefing is more insidious in  nature.

    What a cop out.

     

    If someone is griefing you in a pve game "oh just ignore it or report dude, they are just immature", but if it is in a pvp game "oh man, it's insidious". Right..

     

     

    Well if someone is griefing you in chat, putting them on ignore solves the problem.  If something is griefing you in the world, calling a gm solves the problem.

    If someone is griefing you in a pvp game, that is tyically considered allowable behaviour. 

    So I see it is not a cop out but a legitamite concern. 

    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • ShakyMoShakyMo Member CommonPosts: 7,207
    Yes because its allowed, pvp happens on pvp servers. When you sign up, you sign up to potential "grief". Don't like it play a pve server.
  • OgreRaperOgreRaper Member Posts: 376
    I just want an MMO to come out with PvP similar to DAOC. Three faction, non-instanced, world objectives that grant bonuses, Realm Points which you can spend to improve your character. DAOC by far had the best PvP I've ever played.
  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper Member CommonPosts: 2,751
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by bunnyhopper

    Originally posted by Laughing-man


     

     

    Well if someone is griefing you in chat, putting them on ignore solves the problem.  If something is griefing you in the world, calling a gm solves the problem.

    If someone is griefing you in a pvp game, that is tyically considered allowable behaviour. 

    So I see it is not a cop out but a legitamite concern. 

    Pking someone in a pvp game is considered "allowable behaviour" as is looting them. Perhaps you need to:

     

    Define someone griefing you in a pvp game.

    Define how often you think that occurs to each individual.

     

    If someone legitimately griefs me in an open world pvp game, that is A) exceptionally rare and B) not simply the act of being pk'd.

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by bunnyhopper

    Originally posted by Laughing-man


     

     

    Well if someone is griefing you in chat, putting them on ignore solves the problem.  If something is griefing you in the world, calling a gm solves the problem.

    If someone is griefing you in a pvp game, that is tyically considered allowable behaviour. 

    So I see it is not a cop out but a legitamite concern. 

    Pking someone in a pvp game is considered "allowable behaviour" as is looting them. Perhaps you need to:

     

    Define someone griefing you in a pvp game.

    Define how often you think that occurs to each individual.

     

    If someone legitimately griefs me in an open world pvp game, that is A) exceptionally rare and B) not simply the act of being pk'd.

    Hmm I thought I said it was allowable behaviour..  Yep I did.

    You can talk about legitimate griefing vs griefing all you want.  It's still griefing and most people don't like to be griefed. 

    And yes it happens very often in an open world pvp game.  And yes it is often pk.

    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • MaelwyddMaelwydd Member Posts: 1,123
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Yes because its allowed, pvp happens on pvp servers. When you sign up, you sign up to potential "grief". Don't like it play a pve server.

    Oh come on, that is like saying bullying can happen in a playground at school, if you want to play in the playground you have to accept you might be bullied. A dick harrassing someone and justifying their behavior by saying "well the programmers don't stop me" is the cop out. The reason a lot of PvP games DO opt for instanced PvP is because these so called PvP'ers who grief are fucking up the game for everyone else.

     

    The day the PvP community joins in with the rest of the community in realising these griefers are the problem is the day open world PvP might be seen as a viable mainstream commodity to invest in. But the PvP community either condones the shitty players or is too dumb as a whole to realise exactly why they don't get anyone investing in open world PvP. You guys that cry for open world PvP but say griefing is not a problem are causing more harm then good.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by bunnyhopper

    Originally posted by lizardbones  

    Originally posted by bunnyhopper

    Originally posted by Laughing-man
    That is quite simply untrue for the vast majority. Unless ofc you either have some odd idea as to what exactly constitutes "griefing", or you are just prone to hyperbole.
    It doesn't have to happen to even half the people for it to be a basic problem with the game mechanic. It could take as little as 10% of the population experiencing "griefing", however they define it for the idea of griefing to exist and take hold. Actually, 10% of the population doesn't even have to experience "griefing", they just have to accept that it exists. For a lot of players, just the idea of griefing existing is enough for them to not even try playing on a PvP server. They may enjoy PvP, but getting "griefed" isn't what they want. Which is really what it comes down to. Everyone here can argue as much as they want about what's "better", but there is no "better". That argument can't be won. There's only what people want and what they'll pay for. PvE content with optional or non-existent PvP is what the majority of people want, and what they'll pay for.  
    I know that people can grief other people in PVE mmos by constantly harrassing them in chat, I accept that exists and as such I refuse to ever play a PVE mmo and I will come on to these forums and post some complete bullshit "90% of the time PVE griefzors" comment. That someone, somewhere is being griefed in a PVE mmo makes it as clear as day that there is a fundamental issue with PVE mmos.

     

    It is rather important how you define griefing btw. Vital in fact.

     

    As for the second part of your post, I generally agree. "Better" is subjective.



    Getting harassed in chat is universal. That has nothing to do with PvE or PvP. The response is the same in both cases; ignore the person and possibly report them to a GM. I suppose on a PvP server you could kill the person, but that aspect of griefing is the same on both server types too...the more powerful player will more likely harass the weaker player, not the other way around.

    I'm not sure what the message is you're trying to convey here. More people want PvE games with optional or instanced PvP. Does it really matter why? That's what they want, so they're not going to play a PvP game or on a PvP server. They don't even have to see what some people call griefing as griefing. They just have to see those events as things they don't want to experience.

    ** edit **
    Actually, on a PvP server, getting harassed in chat may be considered an acceptable form of game play. This isn't likely to happen on a PvE server.

    ** edit edit **
    Griefing doesn't really need to be defined. When you see "griefing", just assume it means "activities a player doesn't want to engage in, that are instigated by other players". For instance, if it were possible, forcing another player to raid when they don't want to would be griefing.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper Member CommonPosts: 2,751
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by bunnyhopper

    Originally posted by Laughing-man


     

     

    Hmm I thought I said it was allowable behaviour..  Yep I did.

    You can talk about legitimate griefing vs griefing all you want.  It's still griefing and most people don't like to be griefed. 

    And yes it happens very often in an open world pvp game.  And yes it is often pk.

    Pking someone in a pvp game is not griefing.....

    Getting killed happens a lot in a pvp game? Oh shit really? Getting legitimately griefed, yeah that doesn't actually happen that often.

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by bunnyhopper

    Originally posted by Laughing-man


     

     

    Hmm I thought I said it was allowable behaviour..  Yep I did.

    You can talk about legitimate griefing vs griefing all you want.  It's still griefing and most people don't like to be griefed. 

    And yes it happens very often in an open world pvp game.  And yes it is often pk.

    Pking someone in a pvp game is not griefing.....

    Getting killed happens a lot in a pvp game? Oh shit really? Getting legitimately griefed, yeah that doesn't actually happen that often.

    Sure it is.  Just cause it's allowed doesn't make it not griefing. 

    And yes "legitamite griefing"  e.g corpse camping, camping newb spawn area, going after people many mnay levels lower... happens a lot

    getting killed isn't an issue.  Harrassment is and yes happens quite a bit.

    edit - And the options are not simply pvp or pve.  There are many options in between such as not killing someone below a certain level, only killing someone within certain levels of you, instanced pvp  all are options between the two.

    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • AxiosImmortalAxiosImmortal Member UncommonPosts: 645
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by Jonoku

    Originally posted by Skeeter50

    Originally posted by bcbully You need both. Instanced pvp by itself is a huge design fail.   Swtor, TSW, and GW2 are all suffering because they decided to leave Wpvp out. 
    I have been playing swtor for a week on a pvp server, and it has open world pvp planets starting at lvl 22.
    Do you see any people around? did you enjoy the engine while experiencing 48v48? if you didn't experience any of that we consider OPvP to be non-existent in swtor. Why do you think people left swtor?

    There is a long list of reasons people left SWToR. OWPvP is pretty far down the list. I would go so far as to say that OWPvP is not a major factor in any game's success or failure unless that game uses it as a primary game play mechanic.

    In games where players can choose between PvE servers and PvP servers, more people choose PvE servers and the PvE servers are more populated. More people choose PvE with optional PvP. They aren't forced into that, it's what they want.

    It's just not that important.

     

    Of course there are more reasons of why people left SWTOR, but for me, OPvP is the main thing for me, to each their own. To make a more generalized statement, restrictions ruined it for me.

    I'm pretty sure most people left because llum was shitty as well as their pro engine. Hard to believe that OPvP is far down the list, maybe for you individually as you don't care for OPvP.

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  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper Member CommonPosts: 2,751
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by bunnyhopper

    Originally posted by lizardbones  

    Originally posted by bunnyhopper

    Originally posted by Laughing-man




    Getting harassed in chat is universal. That has nothing to do with PvE or PvP. The response is the same in both cases; ignore the person and possibly report them to a GM. I suppose on a PvP server you could kill the person, but that aspect of griefing is the same on both server types too...the more powerful player will more likely harass the weaker player, not the other way around.

    I'm not sure what the message is you're trying to convey here. More people want PvE games with optional or instanced PvP. Does it really matter why? That's what they want, so they're not going to play a PvP game or on a PvP server. They don't even have to see what some people call griefing as griefing. They just have to see those events as things they don't want to experience.

    ** edit **
    Actually, on a PvP server, getting harassed in chat may be considered an acceptable form of game play. This isn't likely to happen on a PvE server.

     

    "They don't even have to see what some people call griefing as griefing". Wait wut?

     

    Where have I said anything about what the majority want btw? That entire part of your last two posts has been utterly redundant.

     

    My original post pointed out that griefing doesn't occur 90% of the time in a pvp game unless you are either A) talking shite, or B) have a really fked up notion as to what constitutes griefing. Neither of your two posts in response to that initial premise have countered it in any way.

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • CecropiaCecropia Member RarePosts: 3,985
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    Hmm I thought I said it was allowable behaviour..  Yep I did.

    You can talk about legitimate griefing vs griefing all you want.  It's still griefing and most people don't like to be griefed. 

    And yes it happens very often in an open world pvp game.  And yes it is often pk.

    Having played OWPVP MMOs for quite a few years I haven't experienced anything with respect to griefing that I would label as happening "very often". Maybe some of you guys have bad luck, perhaps you're unaware that you can displace and find a more suitable place to call home, or maybe some of you are getting griefed so much because of your own behaviour in game. Sure it does happen, but after all these years I just don't see it as such a huge issue. Hell, it wasn't an issue for me in 2 years of playing the original DF.

     

     

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  • AxiosImmortalAxiosImmortal Member UncommonPosts: 645
    Originally posted by Cecropia
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    Hmm I thought I said it was allowable behaviour..  Yep I did.

    You can talk about legitimate griefing vs griefing all you want.  It's still griefing and most people don't like to be griefed. 

    And yes it happens very often in an open world pvp game.  And yes it is often pk.

    Having played OWPVP MMOs for quite a few years I haven't experienced anything with respect to griefing that I would label as happening "very often". Maybe some of you guys have bad luck, perhaps you're unaware that you can displace and find a more suitable place to call home, or maybe some of you are getting griefed so much because of your own behaviour in game. Sure it does happen, but after all these years I just don't see it as such a huge issue. Hell, it wasn't an issue for me in 2 years of playing the original DF.

     

     

    I played SWG for like 6+ years without getting griefed......

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  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601
    Originally posted by Cecropia
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    Hmm I thought I said it was allowable behaviour..  Yep I did.

    You can talk about legitimate griefing vs griefing all you want.  It's still griefing and most people don't like to be griefed. 

    And yes it happens very often in an open world pvp game.  And yes it is often pk.

    Having played OWPVP MMOs for quite a few years I haven't experienced anything with respect to griefing that I would label as happening "very often". Maybe some of you guys have bad luck, perhaps you're unaware that you can displace and find a more suitable place to call home, or maybe some of you are getting griefed so much because of your own behaviour in game. Sure it does happen, but after all these years I just don't see it as such a huge issue. Hell, it wasn't an issue for me in 2 years of playing the original DF.

     

     

    Thats fine.  I have no issues with that.  Everyones mileage will vary and everyones tolerance will vary.  I only played darkfall for a week and was pk'd over a dozen times in my first day.  Sucked big time, not how I wanted to spend my time.

    I've had some ok experiences with owpvp, some horrible.  But in the end I really don't want to be killed when I'm just crafting or lounging around with friends... so I prefer to pvp in games that have designated areas. 

     

    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • AxiosImmortalAxiosImmortal Member UncommonPosts: 645
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    Thats fine.  I have no issues with that.  Everyones mileage will vary and everyones tolerance will vary.  I only played darkfall for a week and was pk'd over a dozen times in my first day.  Sucked big time, not how I wanted to spend my time.

    I've had some ok experiences with owpvp, some horrible.  But in the end I really don't want to be killed when I'm just crafting or lounging around with friends... so I prefer to pvp in games that have designated areas. 

     

    I love the element of suprise.....don't mind getting ganked out of nowhere. I love getting hunted by bounty hunters and flanking them as they try to flank me.

    Looking at: The Repopulation
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  • bunnyhopperbunnyhopper Member CommonPosts: 2,751
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by botrytis
    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by bunnyhopper

    Originally posted by Laughing-man


     

     

    Sure it is.  Just cause it's allowed doesn't make it not griefing. 

    And yes "legitamite griefing"  e.g corpse camping, camping newb spawn area, going after people many mnay levels lower... happens a lot

    getting killed isn't an issue.  Harrassment is and yes happens quite a bit.

    edit - And the options are not simply pvp or pve.  There are many options in between such as not killing someone below a certain level, only killing someone within certain levels of you, instanced pvp  all are options between the two.

    Pking isn't griefing, jesus titty fking christ.

     

    Lopsided camping occurs far more frequently in consensual pvp settings.

     

    "Harrassement happens quite a bit", about as much as it does in pve games.

    "Come and have a look at what you could have won."

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601
    Originally posted by Jonoku
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    Thats fine.  I have no issues with that.  Everyones mileage will vary and everyones tolerance will vary.  I only played darkfall for a week and was pk'd over a dozen times in my first day.  Sucked big time, not how I wanted to spend my time.

    I've had some ok experiences with owpvp, some horrible.  But in the end I really don't want to be killed when I'm just crafting or lounging around with friends... so I prefer to pvp in games that have designated areas. 

     

    I love the element of suprise.....don't mind getting ganked out of nowhere. I love getting hunted by bounty hunters and flanking them as they try to flank me.

    That can be a lot of fun, but for me it's more fun when I actually have a chance of winning.  If I'm in crafting gear hauling a load of materials, there really is no chance. Likewise I won't do that to others.

    However if someone sneaks up on me and we are about even levels, that can be a lot of fun.

    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • AxiosImmortalAxiosImmortal Member UncommonPosts: 645
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Jonoku
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    Thats fine.  I have no issues with that.  Everyones mileage will vary and everyones tolerance will vary.  I only played darkfall for a week and was pk'd over a dozen times in my first day.  Sucked big time, not how I wanted to spend my time.

    I've had some ok experiences with owpvp, some horrible.  But in the end I really don't want to be killed when I'm just crafting or lounging around with friends... so I prefer to pvp in games that have designated areas. 

     

    I love the element of suprise.....don't mind getting ganked out of nowhere. I love getting hunted by bounty hunters and flanking them as they try to flank me.

    That can be a lot of fun, but for me it's more fun when I actually have a chance of winning.  If I'm in crafting gear hauling a load of materials, there really is no chance. Likewise I won't do that to others.

    However if someone sneaks up on me and we are about even levels, that can be a lot of fun.

    In SWG there was a housing/city system, so if you craft in your home then your safe and the radar helps you stay alert so when a BH tries to attack, you get a chance to change your clothes to combat/pvp/high end gear or ignore the bh and continue crafting.

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  • IsawaIsawa Member UncommonPosts: 1,051
    Originally posted by mmoDAD

    When did players start to accept the fact that it's okay for PvP to be completely instanced?

    When they became slaves to the system much like the gladiators of old.

    Or maybe in like nearly all Martial Arts, one fights in an arena against a set number of opponents to prove their worth.

    The open world is full of back stabbers, unfairness haha, and unsuspecting fights. Nothing wrong with open world pvp, as long as thereis some sort of law in the land. Warrants for arrest for gankers, bounty hunters, even NPC guards.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by bunnyhopper
    Originally posted by lizardbones   Originally posted by bunnyhopper Originally posted by lizardbones   Originally posted by bunnyhopper Originally posted by Laughing-man



    Getting harassed in chat is universal. That has nothing to do with PvE or PvP. The response is the same in both cases; ignore the person and possibly report them to a GM. I suppose on a PvP server you could kill the person, but that aspect of griefing is the same on both server types too...the more powerful player will more likely harass the weaker player, not the other way around. I'm not sure what the message is you're trying to convey here. More people want PvE games with optional or instanced PvP. Does it really matter why? That's what they want, so they're not going to play a PvP game or on a PvP server. They don't even have to see what some people call griefing as griefing. They just have to see those events as things they don't want to experience. ** edit ** Actually, on a PvP server, getting harassed in chat may be considered an acceptable form of game play. This isn't likely to happen on a PvE server.  
    "They don't even have to see what some people call greifing as griefing". Wait wut? 

    Where have I said anything about what the majority want btw? That entire part of your last two posts has been utterly redundant.

     

    My original post pointed out that griefing doesn't occur 90% of the time in a pvp game unless you are either A) talking shite, or B) have a really fked up notion as to what constitutes griefing. Neither of your two posts in response to that initial premise have countered it in any way.




    I'm not disputing that griefing doesn't happen as often as it's talked about. It could be true that griefing doesn't happen 99% of the time in PvP games. This doesn't matter.

    What I'm saying is this:

    Only one player involved in an event has to perceive that event as "griefing". The definition doesn't matter...only the perception matters. They are going to describe the event as griefing.

    A player doesn't actually have to experience getting griefed in order to avoid a game where they think it might happen. It doesn't matter how they define griefing.

    Griefing doesn't have to be perceived as happening to many people to have an adverse impact on the perception of OWPvP games or servers.

    Griefing as a reason to not engage in OWPvP games is a legitimate reason.

    It's all about perception.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601
    Originally posted by Jonoku
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Jonoku
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    Thats fine.  I have no issues with that.  Everyones mileage will vary and everyones tolerance will vary.  I only played darkfall for a week and was pk'd over a dozen times in my first day.  Sucked big time, not how I wanted to spend my time.

    I've had some ok experiences with owpvp, some horrible.  But in the end I really don't want to be killed when I'm just crafting or lounging around with friends... so I prefer to pvp in games that have designated areas. 

     

    I love the element of suprise.....don't mind getting ganked out of nowhere. I love getting hunted by bounty hunters and flanking them as they try to flank me.

    That can be a lot of fun, but for me it's more fun when I actually have a chance of winning.  If I'm in crafting gear hauling a load of materials, there really is no chance. Likewise I won't do that to others.

    However if someone sneaks up on me and we are about even levels, that can be a lot of fun.

    In SWG there was a housing/city system, so if you craft in your home then your safe and the radar helps you stay alert so when a BH tries to attack, you get a chance to change your clothes to combat/pvp/high end gear or ignore the bh and continue crafting.

    SWG also had a flag system if I remember right, didn't it?  You could choose to be pvp or not (except Jedi)

    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • AxiosImmortalAxiosImmortal Member UncommonPosts: 645
    Griefing is the smallest thing I'd worry about in OPvP games imo.

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  • AxiosImmortalAxiosImmortal Member UncommonPosts: 645
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Jonoku
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    That can be a lot of fun, but for me it's more fun when I actually have a chance of winning.  If I'm in crafting gear hauling a load of materials, there really is no chance. Likewise I won't do that to others.

    However if someone sneaks up on me and we are about even levels, that can be a lot of fun.

    In SWG there was a housing/city system, so if you craft in your home then your safe and the radar helps you stay alert so when a BH tries to attack, you get a chance to change your clothes to combat/pvp/high end gear or ignore the bh and continue crafting.

    SWG also had a flag system if I remember right, didn't it?  You could choose to be pvp or not (except Jedi)

    Ya, there was no such thing as pvp server or pve server and they had success in their OPvP because of the community looking forward to it 24/7. As a jedi you'd always get hunted by Bounty hunters but as NGE came out, BH hunts anyone.

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  • Johnie-MarzJohnie-Marz Member UncommonPosts: 865

    When I played EVE the idea was, if it's a fair fight, you planned it wrong. (Something I have mentioned before)

    You wanted an advantage. If they had ten ships then you wanted twenty. It was about surprise, it was about gaining intellegence, it was about having the right kind of ships and yes it was about having more than your opponent.

    In instanced pvp your, side has the same amount of people as the other side, your all about the same level, it is about a fair fight. It's about organization, communication and  tactics, and in many cases it is about gear (Which is why gamers are against pay to win)

    In other words, in open pvp the fight is usually won before the battle even begins.

    In instanced pvp, it is usually won by the team that works together the best.

    They are simply two different typse of animals and both have advantages and disadvantages. Some people will gravitate towards open world pvp and some will gravitate to instanced. There is nothing wrong with either, it's just a matter of taste.

  • AxiosImmortalAxiosImmortal Member UncommonPosts: 645
    Originally posted by Johnie-Marz

    When I played EVE the idea was, if it's a fair fight, you planned it wrong. (Something I have mentioned before)

    You wanted an advantage. If they had ten ships then you wanted twenty. It was about surprise, it was about gaining intellegence, it was about having the right kind of ships and yes it was about having more than your opponent.

    In instanced pvp your, side has the same amount of people as the other side, your all about the same level, it is about a fair fight. It's about organization, communication and  tactics, and in many cases it is about gear (Which is why gamers are against pay to win)

    Now this wouldn't encourage me to play EVE, in other OPvP games, this wasnt the case.

    Looking at: The Repopulation
    Preordering: None
    Playing: Random Games

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