Also im sure there is some sandboxy mmorpg out there i havent heard of, but my point still stands it needs to be done more!
And what if...less is actually less?
If despite the rahrah of the sub-genre, you've waited so many years for, a game opens with exactly the features that you swear cannot fail to make it a total success...and you try and you try to like but...
Like many fans every new themepark feels totally been there, done that, no matter how much you want it to succeed?
I've been playing sandbox games, on and off, since ~95, counting MUDs as sandboxes (which they were). And as hard as the political party campaigns at me, I still don't see their qualities as the Savior. It's good that you do; maybe it will work for you, after all the waiting.
But you know how we all warn each other about expectations, over and over and over again.
No one's warning the "sandboxes will save us!" fans about their expectations exceeding the genre's grasp.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I honestly think that the MMOs of old were so "unique" and "special" to us veterans because they were something new and different in the video game world - they were huge online spaces that allowed interactions online that hadn't been seen or done before.
It was like.. hundreds if not thousands of people online at the same time in the same world? What? NO WAY!
But now, that magic is gone - it's so expected now that everything has multiplayer and we've had 10+ years to no longer be amazed by seeing more than 3-15 other people in the same space.
Also with that was how we interacted with other people.
Multiplayer at the time was either Deathmatch style FPS games or.... cooperative 2-4 person game play that was exactly the same interactions as single player (stuff like Starcraft or Warcraft 2/3)
But in MMOs, we could sing we could dance we could build and fight and have weddings and role play.... the amount of interaction we had with other people was just astounding.
But now, it is so common and so expected it is no longer magic. I mean, even the idea of having emotes you could /type and have your character peform actions others could see was.... wow... only in MMOs!
So how do you bring that magic back?
The answer is NOT to simply re-do the same stuff that we had before. Housing and crafting and PvP and other more "sandbox" type interactions is not enough. That magic is long, long gone.
We need more. We need something new.
What is that?
What is the next step the next phase of online interaction going to be?
Whatever it is going to be, that is what MMOs need to reach beyond what they are now - just like every other game but with more people you don't know or most of the time care to meet.
I think that the next big step is going to be an incrediblly profound increase in the level of interaction with the world itself and it's characters (NPC's) which = AI.
No more monster spawns wandering in circles waiting to die, no more "random" missions that are all exactly the same. No more static aggro tables and mob behaviors... no more instanced dungeons and raids with scripted encounters.
We need truly dynamic AI driven worlds/characters where the NPCs have goals, motivations, and the intelligence and decision making "skills" to play the game with and against us - the players.
Sounds like science fiction right? Every NPC as capable as players (and as varied).
I want an NPC faction to be able to choose to attack my guild/clan/corporate holdings because it decides we have become too great a threat and all efforts at economic and diplomatic resolution have failed.
I want an NPC to get scarred and try to make a run for it and not because it's programmed that mob type A = flee command at 15% HP but because I and my fellows truly intimidate.
That's the world I dreamt about 10+ years ago playing UO.
Also im sure there is some sandboxy mmorpg out there i havent heard of, but my point still stands it needs to be done more!
And what if...less is actually less?
If despite the rahrah of the sub-genre, you've waited so many years for, a game opens with exactly the features that you swear cannot fail to make it a total success...and you try and you try to like but...
Like many fans every new themepark feels totally been there, done that, no matter how much you want it to succeed?
I've been playing sandbox games, on and off, since ~95, counting MUDs as sandboxes (which they were). And as hard as the political party campaigns at me, I still don't see their qualities as the Savior. It's good that you do; maybe it will work for you, after all the waiting.
But you know how we all warn each other about expectations, over and over and over again.
No one's warning the "sandboxes will save us!" fans about their expectations exceeding the genre's grasp.
That exact scenario happened to me. I've played enough games to know what I like. I like usefull crafting, I like flight, I like housing, I like bards. Vanguard came out, I should have loved it, it had everything I liked. However after trying it multiple times I find it just boring. Mediocre housing, semi ok but button mash crafting, moderate character graphics. To me everything about it was just... ok, not great.
So it's all about implementation, no news there though.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I honestly think that the MMOs of old were so "unique" and "special" to us veterans because they were something new and different in the video game world - they were huge online spaces that allowed interactions online that hadn't been seen or done before.
It was like.. hundreds if not thousands of people online at the same time in the same world? What? NO WAY!
But now, that magic is gone - it's so expected now that everything has multiplayer and we've had 10+ years to no longer be amazed by seeing more than 3-15 other people in the same space.
Also with that was how we interacted with other people.
Multiplayer at the time was either Deathmatch style FPS games or.... cooperative 2-4 person game play that was exactly the same interactions as single player (stuff like Starcraft or Warcraft 2/3)
But in MMOs, we could sing we could dance we could build and fight and have weddings and role play.... the amount of interaction we had with other people was just astounding.
But now, it is so common and so expected it is no longer magic. I mean, even the idea of having emotes you could /type and have your character peform actions others could see was.... wow... only in MMOs!
So how do you bring that magic back?
The answer is NOT to simply re-do the same stuff that we had before. Housing and crafting and PvP and other more "sandbox" type interactions is not enough. That magic is long, long gone.
We need more. We need something new.
What is that?
What is the next step the next phase of online interaction going to be?
Whatever it is going to be, that is what MMOs need to reach beyond what they are now - just like every other game but with more people you don't know or most of the time care to meet.
I think that the next big step is going to be an incrediblly profound increase in the level of interaction with the world itself and it's characters (NPC's) which = AI.
No more monster spawns wandering in circles waiting to die, no more "random" missions that are all exactly the same. No more static aggro tables and mob behaviors... no more instanced dungeons and raids with scripted encounters.
We need truly dynamic AI driven worlds/characters where the NPCs have goals, motivations, and the intelligence and decision making "skills" to play the game with and against us - the players.
Sounds like science fiction right? Every NPC as capable as players (and as varied).
I want an NPC faction to be able to choose to attack my guild/clan/corporate holdings because it decides we have become too great a threat and all efforts at economic and diplomatic resolution have failed.
I want an NPC to get scarred and try to make a run for it and not because it's programmed that mob type A = flee command at 15% HP but because I and my fellows truly intimidate.
That's the world I dreamt about 10+ years ago playing UO.
Totally agree. I am convinced that old games are seen as good, not becaust they actually are better than modern games but because they were new to us. We interacted with the games and with players in a very very different format then we are used to.
Now we are used to it. In order to wow us again, we need a new way to interact with the games and with each other.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I honestly think that the MMOs of old were so "unique" and "special" to us veterans because they were something new and different in the video game world - they were huge online spaces that allowed interactions online that hadn't been seen or done before.
It was like.. hundreds if not thousands of people online at the same time in the same world? What? NO WAY!
But now, that magic is gone - it's so expected now that everything has multiplayer and we've had 10+ years to no longer be amazed by seeing more than 3-15 other people in the same space.
Also with that was how we interacted with other people.
Multiplayer at the time was either Deathmatch style FPS games or.... cooperative 2-4 person game play that was exactly the same interactions as single player (stuff like Starcraft or Warcraft 2/3)
But in MMOs, we could sing we could dance we could build and fight and have weddings and role play.... the amount of interaction we had with other people was just astounding.
But now, it is so common and so expected it is no longer magic. I mean, even the idea of having emotes you could /type and have your character peform actions others could see was.... wow... only in MMOs!
So how do you bring that magic back?
The answer is NOT to simply re-do the same stuff that we had before. Housing and crafting and PvP and other more "sandbox" type interactions is not enough. That magic is long, long gone.
We need more. We need something new.
What is that?
What is the next step the next phase of online interaction going to be?
Whatever it is going to be, that is what MMOs need to reach beyond what they are now - just like every other game but with more people you don't know or most of the time care to meet.
I think that the next big step is going to be an incrediblly profound increase in the level of interaction with the world itself and it's characters (NPC's) which = AI.
No more monster spawns wandering in circles waiting to die, no more "random" missions that are all exactly the same. No more static aggro tables and mob behaviors... no more instanced dungeons and raids with scripted encounters.
We need truly dynamic AI driven worlds/characters where the NPCs have goals, motivations, and the intelligence and decision making "skills" to play the game with and against us - the players.
Sounds like science fiction right? Every NPC as capable as players (and as varied).
I want an NPC faction to be able to choose to attack my guild/clan/corporate holdings because it decides we have become too great a threat and all efforts at economic and diplomatic resolution have failed.
I want an NPC to get scarred and try to make a run for it and not because it's programmed that mob type A = flee command at 15% HP but because I and my fellows truly intimidate.
That's the world I dreamt about 10+ years ago playing UO.
I agree. I remember the first time I played Pacman or Joust - WOW that was fun.
I think that is the problem. It is the general ennui waiting for the next big thing, if there will ever be one.
Originally posted by dave6660I'm really suprised the super hero theme hasn't done better in mmorpg's. It does great at the box office. Comic books provide endless story ideas.While I am getting tired of the fantasy setting, there's no denying Tolkien is a legend and nobody will ever really "let him go".
Superheros in the box office are a very recent thing. Far more recent than MMOs. There needs to be a gritty reboot of superhero MMOs so that they feel relevant and fresh.
No they aren't... superheroes have been huge since 2001 with the Xmen and Spiderman movies.The reason super heroes haven't taken off is because there's only been one decent superhero MMO, City of Heroes.
You can go back much further than 2001. The original Superman with Christopher Reeve was released in 1978. That was nominated for 3 oscars. Then there was the 1986 Batman with Michael Keaton which did win an oscar.
They didn't lead to the popular renaissance of super hero movies that we're seeing now. They were good movies, and I think Michael Keaton was a near perfect Batman, but the movies didn't lead to anything.
I'm not saying decent super hero movies haven't been made, I'm saying it hasn't had mass appeal like it has now until after Nolan's Batman movies.
Except that you're wrong, the Xmen and Spiderman movies were MASSIVE mainstream success stories, which is why the Nolan batman movies were made at all.
Gameplay wise I would have to say no they're not getting worse. Combat is improving to be more interesting more fast paced more strategic and require more attention. Combat in newer gen mmos is much more involved and generally more fun for me personally, but it comes at a cost of community.
This I think is why the modern games don't hold players attention. By making the combat so much more fun and fast paced you remove the down time when players got to know each other joke around and have a good time. Sure chat in mmos these days is full of bored trolls and general annoying prats to be avoided but by removing the ability to chit chat with low level pugs you make players you've grouped with easily forgotten. There is a missing level of comraderie from newer games and this in my opinion causes many to die off. Solo games are fine I enjoy soloing more than most but when you take an mmo and turn it into a solo console game with mmo features you've missed the mark. Swtor is a prime example of this, you could play solo to max and never need to see speak to or group with another player add in an online arena/dungeon tool and you have a fun 360/ps3 game with online co-op/pvp. Exact same game exact same feel and exact same lack of community.
MMOs are evolving for better or worse they are in the process of changing, this is good news. It just might take time for something new to be as successful as individual gamers with individual ideas demand.
I think that is the problem. It is the general ennui waiting for the next big thing, if there will ever be one.
Which suggests a new hobby.
Something I'd heartily recommend (if somewhat hypocritically, hey I'm human) for a great many of our regulars. Including self, but I haven't found it yet.
My mother warned me about escapism, lo those many, many years ago
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
and you know what i hate about console games...they dont promote sharing....why arent there any good games i can play with my brother like bf3....cod4 without having to buy another tv and ps3...why? because tptb are against sharing of any kind.
The answer is NOT to simply re-do the same stuff that we had before. Housing and crafting and PvP and other more "sandbox" type interactions is not enough. That magic is long, long gone.
Ok fine, I agree, but the problem is that we're not even getting that these days. No housing and crafting is a joke. Bring those in-depth systems back FIRST would be the way to go, would it not? Why build on a crappy foundation instead of getting things right from the ground up?
We need more. We need something new.
What is that?
What is the next step the next phase of online interaction going to be?
Whatever it is going to be, that is what MMOs need to reach beyond what they are now - just like every other game but with more people you don't know or most of the time care to meet.
I think that the next big step is going to be an incrediblly profound increase in the level of interaction with the world itself and it's characters (NPC's) which = AI.
No more monster spawns wandering in circles waiting to die, no more "random" missions that are all exactly the same. No more static aggro tables and mob behaviors... no more instanced dungeons and raids with scripted encounters.
Agreed. I've always wanted to see random systems, quests, missions etc. No more looking at Wiki for the answers, make it different for everyone. Crafting? Random, slightly different order and/or ingredients for everyone. Random monster stats within a range, random group mechanics within a range, random item stats (SWG crafting and random resources were unmatched IMO) and on and on... there's plenty to delve into there.
We need truly dynamic AI driven worlds/characters where the NPCs have goals, motivations, and the intelligence and decision making "skills" to play the game with and against us - the players.
Sounds like science fiction right? Every NPC as capable as players (and as varied).
I want an NPC faction to be able to choose to attack my guild/clan/corporate holdings because it decides we have become too great a threat and all efforts at economic and diplomatic resolution have failed.
I want an NPC to get scarred and try to make a run for it and not because it's programmed that mob type A = flee command at 15% HP but because I and my fellows truly intimidate.
That's all good stuff but once again, the foundation of current MMOs is faulty, that needs to be corrected first. I won't hold my breath however.
That's the world I dreamt about 10+ years ago playing UO.
Yeah, you me both. The MMO industry I dreamt about ten years ago became this floundering, fubar mess of carp we see today. Let's start from square one and build up from there first I say. Once we get the foundation solid, then we can focus on adding AI systems like you mentioned. AI is great but if the rest of the game sucks, it matters not.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
MMOs are not capturing the magic they once did. When everyone was new to MMOs, there was an exciting quality to joining the game-world and interacting with people from all over.
At this point, I would guess that most people have played at least one other MMO and may be trying to capture the lightning in a bottle they felt at their first MMO experience.
When everyone was new to MMOs, there was an exciting quality to joining the game-world and interacting with people from all over.
A period that lasted at least ten years.
Remember that more than half of the audience did not enter the genre at all until WoW's release (or post- release).
I'd venture to say the latecomers are a lot less sick of it all than us old pharts are.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I'm really suprised the super hero theme hasn't done better in mmorpg's. It does great at the box office. Comic books provide endless story ideas.
What makes a good movie or book does not necessarily make a good game.
This is especially true of multiplayer and definitely true of massively multiplayer.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Also im sure there is some sandboxy mmorpg out there i havent heard of, but my point still stands it needs to be done more!
No one's warning the "sandboxes will save us!" fans about their expectations exceeding the genre's grasp.
Well maybe sandbox wasnt really the word i was looking for... I understand what youre saying theres definitely a balance that has to be struck.
Im not saying i just want a load of random pieces of content like housing and stuff implemented with no real thought, and the whole thing is sort of random.
I just think theres kind of so many different goals in mmorpgs, with a long list of things you could go do. It turns the game less into a game and more into a chore, "got this much exp to go", "got these things left to do in this map", "gotta get these mats to craft this gear" etc...
Whereas player created content is something you cant really predict, and i think some cool things could be done there.
The new ones are terrible. FFXIV was voted the #1 game in development before its release. The same is true of SWTOR, and I think Tabula Rasa, TSW, and Darkfall. These games all crashed hard. The only one that is debatable is TSW. So people are voting for and buying garbage.
There used to be something unique in MMOs. You formed communities and did things as a group. People were dependent on each other. Now you grab the nearest 4 or 5 people and go into an instance, collect some goodies, and say goodbye. Even if it's done with a guild the only point is to collect more goodies for yourself. There's nothing wrong with collecting goodies, but if that's the only point then it gets just a little dull when every game is like that.
You're paying a MONTHLY FEE for most of these games on top of the purchasing price. That alone should make it somethething you want to invest more time and energy in. What's the point of paying a monthly subscription if the game only lasts you a few months?
I honestly think that the MMOs of old were so "unique" and "special" to us veterans because they were something new and different in the video game world - they were huge online spaces that allowed interactions online that hadn't been seen or done before.
It was like.. hundreds if not thousands of people online at the same time in the same world? What? NO WAY!
But now, that magic is gone - it's so expected now that everything has multiplayer and we've had 10+ years to no longer be amazed by seeing more than 3-15 other people in the same space.
Also with that was how we interacted with other people.
Multiplayer at the time was either Deathmatch style FPS games or.... cooperative 2-4 person game play that was exactly the same interactions as single player (stuff like Starcraft or Warcraft 2/3)
But in MMOs, we could sing we could dance we could build and fight and have weddings and role play.... the amount of interaction we had with other people was just astounding.
But now, it is so common and so expected it is no longer magic. I mean, even the idea of having emotes you could /type and have your character peform actions others could see was.... wow... only in MMOs!
So how do you bring that magic back?
The answer is NOT to simply re-do the same stuff that we had before. Housing and crafting and PvP and other more "sandbox" type interactions is not enough. That magic is long, long gone.
We need more. We need something new.
What is that?
What is the next step the next phase of online interaction going to be?
Whatever it is going to be, that is what MMOs need to reach beyond what they are now - just like every other game but with more people you don't know or most of the time care to meet.
I think that the next big step is going to be an incrediblly profound increase in the level of interaction with the world itself and it's characters (NPC's) which = AI.
No more monster spawns wandering in circles waiting to die, no more "random" missions that are all exactly the same. No more static aggro tables and mob behaviors... no more instanced dungeons and raids with scripted encounters.
We need truly dynamic AI driven worlds/characters where the NPCs have goals, motivations, and the intelligence and decision making "skills" to play the game with and against us - the players.
Sounds like science fiction right? Every NPC as capable as players (and as varied).
I want an NPC faction to be able to choose to attack my guild/clan/corporate holdings because it decides we have become too great a threat and all efforts at economic and diplomatic resolution have failed.
I want an NPC to get scarred and try to make a run for it and not because it's programmed that mob type A = flee command at 15% HP but because I and my fellows truly intimidate.
That's the world I dreamt about 10+ years ago playing UO.
I am convinced that old games are seen as good, not becaust they actually are better than modern games but because they were new to us.
I've gone back to play games like UO and SWG (unspeakable version) and they were/are better. Games today are just plain crap compared to the indepth systems of old.
But then again, some gamers actually prefer heavy instancing, no worlds, "Free" 2P, no housing, no crafting, linear zones, linear questing, quest hubs, collect 10 of X, return Y... ad nauseum.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
I think MMO players need to realize the first good experience they had in MMO's (whatever got them into the genre) will never happen the exact same way again. The rush or addiction some felt towards thier first MMO is unlikely to be duplicated. To make matters worse, the more you play MMO's the less enjoyment you will recieve from them over time (Law of Diminishing Marginal Utility).
If you couple this with the fact that the MMO player population is growing older and more casual, you may never see a AAA title that resembles the games of old.
TL;DR.... Don't measure new games solely off of an experience you had in previous games.
The new ones are terrible. FFXIV was voted the #1 game in development before its release. The same is true of SWTOR, and I think Tabula Rasa, TSW, and Darkfall. These games all crashed hard. The only one that is debatable is TSW. So people are voting for and buying garbage.
Uh no, the only one thats debatable is Darkfall. TSW is a flaming wreck. And Darkfall wasn't voted #1 game.
I honestly think that the MMOs of old were so "unique" and "special" to us veterans because they were something new and different in the video game world - they were huge online spaces that allowed interactions online that hadn't been seen or done before.
It was like.. hundreds if not thousands of people online at the same time in the same world? What? NO WAY!
But now, that magic is gone - it's so expected now that everything has multiplayer and we've had 10+ years to no longer be amazed by seeing more than 3-15 other people in the same space.
Also with that was how we interacted with other people.
Multiplayer at the time was either Deathmatch style FPS games or.... cooperative 2-4 person game play that was exactly the same interactions as single player (stuff like Starcraft or Warcraft 2/3)
But in MMOs, we could sing we could dance we could build and fight and have weddings and role play.... the amount of interaction we had with other people was just astounding.
But now, it is so common and so expected it is no longer magic. I mean, even the idea of having emotes you could /type and have your character peform actions others could see was.... wow... only in MMOs!
So how do you bring that magic back?
The answer is NOT to simply re-do the same stuff that we had before. Housing and crafting and PvP and other more "sandbox" type interactions is not enough. That magic is long, long gone.
We need more. We need something new.
What is that?
What is the next step the next phase of online interaction going to be?
Whatever it is going to be, that is what MMOs need to reach beyond what they are now - just like every other game but with more people you don't know or most of the time care to meet.
I think that the next big step is going to be an incrediblly profound increase in the level of interaction with the world itself and it's characters (NPC's) which = AI.
No more monster spawns wandering in circles waiting to die, no more "random" missions that are all exactly the same. No more static aggro tables and mob behaviors... no more instanced dungeons and raids with scripted encounters.
We need truly dynamic AI driven worlds/characters where the NPCs have goals, motivations, and the intelligence and decision making "skills" to play the game with and against us - the players.
Sounds like science fiction right? Every NPC as capable as players (and as varied).
I want an NPC faction to be able to choose to attack my guild/clan/corporate holdings because it decides we have become too great a threat and all efforts at economic and diplomatic resolution have failed.
I want an NPC to get scarred and try to make a run for it and not because it's programmed that mob type A = flee command at 15% HP but because I and my fellows truly intimidate.
That's the world I dreamt about 10+ years ago playing UO.
That sounds pretty cool and what I was imagining 10 years ago while playing EQ. Anything that is new is always great, until its not new anymore than you want the next best thing to play with. It never ends, even if or when they design a game with everything you described people will still be complaining about it being boring and (insert new amazing game name) clone.
Then it's completely subjective and not factually better. I've gone back to play old games as well and only last a week or two before I'm bored to death with the restricted gameplay.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I'm really suprised the super hero theme hasn't done better in mmorpg's. It does great at the box office. Comic books provide endless story ideas.
What makes a good movie or book does not necessarily make a good game.
This is especially true of multiplayer and definitely true of massively multiplayer.
The primary brake is the nerd heirarchy (comic book nerds even lower on the pecking scale than Tolkien nerds), and how actively and zealously Marvel and DC both defend their IPs. Also more than a bit of Male-bias in comic "lore"...dragons and elves being more female-friendly thanks to McCaffrey (and others).
Now if CoH had managed to attract more housewives and console gamers...but no, b.net had them locked up.
Housewife friendly fantasy--going by my wife, that's vampires and werewolves, Janet Evanovich, Kim Harrison. Edward and Jacob for the younger set.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Then it's completely subjective and not factually better. I've gone back to play old games as well and only last a week or two before I'm bored to death with the restricted gameplay.
I see.
And which older games do you consider having "restricted gameplay" and which new games do you consider unrestricted?
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
I forgot to add that the only way around this is to take an extended break from MMO's. I would guess you would have to miss out on atleast one generation. This would include not consuming any news about them. The goal being to reintroduce yourself to a genre that is substantially different from the one you left.
Do we, the gamer, simply suck as human beings and hate everything, or has the medium really advanced as far as it can?
I don't think the later is true, though in many cases the former is.
Games as art continues to progress I think - in terms of visuals, sound, music, even story.
Games as interactable media has continued to advance, very slowly, with a huge shot in the arm by motion gaming and the Nintendo Wii - but motion gaming isn't for everyone - it's a gimmick like 3D is a gimmick for movies (IMO).
So what is next?
I truly do think the next big step will NOT be how we interact with each other or how we interact with the game - but instead how the game interacts with us.
Comments
And what if...less is actually less?
If despite the rahrah of the sub-genre, you've waited so many years for, a game opens with exactly the features that you swear cannot fail to make it a total success...and you try and you try to like but...
Like many fans every new themepark feels totally been there, done that, no matter how much you want it to succeed?
I've been playing sandbox games, on and off, since ~95, counting MUDs as sandboxes (which they were). And as hard as the political party campaigns at me, I still don't see their qualities as the Savior. It's good that you do; maybe it will work for you, after all the waiting.
But you know how we all warn each other about expectations, over and over and over again.
No one's warning the "sandboxes will save us!" fans about their expectations exceeding the genre's grasp.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I honestly think that the MMOs of old were so "unique" and "special" to us veterans because they were something new and different in the video game world - they were huge online spaces that allowed interactions online that hadn't been seen or done before.
It was like.. hundreds if not thousands of people online at the same time in the same world? What? NO WAY!
But now, that magic is gone - it's so expected now that everything has multiplayer and we've had 10+ years to no longer be amazed by seeing more than 3-15 other people in the same space.
Also with that was how we interacted with other people.
Multiplayer at the time was either Deathmatch style FPS games or.... cooperative 2-4 person game play that was exactly the same interactions as single player (stuff like Starcraft or Warcraft 2/3)
But in MMOs, we could sing we could dance we could build and fight and have weddings and role play.... the amount of interaction we had with other people was just astounding.
But now, it is so common and so expected it is no longer magic. I mean, even the idea of having emotes you could /type and have your character peform actions others could see was.... wow... only in MMOs!
So how do you bring that magic back?
The answer is NOT to simply re-do the same stuff that we had before. Housing and crafting and PvP and other more "sandbox" type interactions is not enough. That magic is long, long gone.
We need more. We need something new.
What is that?
What is the next step the next phase of online interaction going to be?
Whatever it is going to be, that is what MMOs need to reach beyond what they are now - just like every other game but with more people you don't know or most of the time care to meet.
I think that the next big step is going to be an incrediblly profound increase in the level of interaction with the world itself and it's characters (NPC's) which = AI.
No more monster spawns wandering in circles waiting to die, no more "random" missions that are all exactly the same. No more static aggro tables and mob behaviors... no more instanced dungeons and raids with scripted encounters.
We need truly dynamic AI driven worlds/characters where the NPCs have goals, motivations, and the intelligence and decision making "skills" to play the game with and against us - the players.
Sounds like science fiction right? Every NPC as capable as players (and as varied).
I want an NPC faction to be able to choose to attack my guild/clan/corporate holdings because it decides we have become too great a threat and all efforts at economic and diplomatic resolution have failed.
I want an NPC to get scarred and try to make a run for it and not because it's programmed that mob type A = flee command at 15% HP but because I and my fellows truly intimidate.
That's the world I dreamt about 10+ years ago playing UO.
That exact scenario happened to me. I've played enough games to know what I like. I like usefull crafting, I like flight, I like housing, I like bards. Vanguard came out, I should have loved it, it had everything I liked. However after trying it multiple times I find it just boring. Mediocre housing, semi ok but button mash crafting, moderate character graphics. To me everything about it was just... ok, not great.
So it's all about implementation, no news there though.
Totally agree. I am convinced that old games are seen as good, not becaust they actually are better than modern games but because they were new to us. We interacted with the games and with players in a very very different format then we are used to.
Now we are used to it. In order to wow us again, we need a new way to interact with the games and with each other.
I agree. I remember the first time I played Pacman or Joust - WOW that was fun.
I think that is the problem. It is the general ennui waiting for the next big thing, if there will ever be one.
Except that you're wrong, the Xmen and Spiderman movies were MASSIVE mainstream success stories, which is why the Nolan batman movies were made at all.
Gameplay wise I would have to say no they're not getting worse. Combat is improving to be more interesting more fast paced more strategic and require more attention. Combat in newer gen mmos is much more involved and generally more fun for me personally, but it comes at a cost of community.
This I think is why the modern games don't hold players attention. By making the combat so much more fun and fast paced you remove the down time when players got to know each other joke around and have a good time. Sure chat in mmos these days is full of bored trolls and general annoying prats to be avoided but by removing the ability to chit chat with low level pugs you make players you've grouped with easily forgotten. There is a missing level of comraderie from newer games and this in my opinion causes many to die off. Solo games are fine I enjoy soloing more than most but when you take an mmo and turn it into a solo console game with mmo features you've missed the mark. Swtor is a prime example of this, you could play solo to max and never need to see speak to or group with another player add in an online arena/dungeon tool and you have a fun 360/ps3 game with online co-op/pvp. Exact same game exact same feel and exact same lack of community.
MMOs are evolving for better or worse they are in the process of changing, this is good news. It just might take time for something new to be as successful as individual gamers with individual ideas demand.
Which suggests a new hobby.
Something I'd heartily recommend (if somewhat hypocritically, hey I'm human) for a great many of our regulars. Including self, but I haven't found it yet.
My mother warned me about escapism, lo those many, many years ago
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
I totally agree with OP...
MMOs are not capturing the magic they once did. When everyone was new to MMOs, there was an exciting quality to joining the game-world and interacting with people from all over.
At this point, I would guess that most people have played at least one other MMO and may be trying to capture the lightning in a bottle they felt at their first MMO experience.
A period that lasted at least ten years.
Remember that more than half of the audience did not enter the genre at all until WoW's release (or post- release).
I'd venture to say the latecomers are a lot less sick of it all than us old pharts are.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
What makes a good movie or book does not necessarily make a good game.
This is especially true of multiplayer and definitely true of massively multiplayer.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Well maybe sandbox wasnt really the word i was looking for... I understand what youre saying theres definitely a balance that has to be struck.
Im not saying i just want a load of random pieces of content like housing and stuff implemented with no real thought, and the whole thing is sort of random.
I just think theres kind of so many different goals in mmorpgs, with a long list of things you could go do. It turns the game less into a game and more into a chore, "got this much exp to go", "got these things left to do in this map", "gotta get these mats to craft this gear" etc...
Whereas player created content is something you cant really predict, and i think some cool things could be done there.
The new ones are terrible. FFXIV was voted the #1 game in development before its release. The same is true of SWTOR, and I think Tabula Rasa, TSW, and Darkfall. These games all crashed hard. The only one that is debatable is TSW. So people are voting for and buying garbage.
There used to be something unique in MMOs. You formed communities and did things as a group. People were dependent on each other. Now you grab the nearest 4 or 5 people and go into an instance, collect some goodies, and say goodbye. Even if it's done with a guild the only point is to collect more goodies for yourself. There's nothing wrong with collecting goodies, but if that's the only point then it gets just a little dull when every game is like that.
You're paying a MONTHLY FEE for most of these games on top of the purchasing price. That alone should make it somethething you want to invest more time and energy in. What's the point of paying a monthly subscription if the game only lasts you a few months?
I've gone back to play games like UO and SWG (unspeakable version) and they were/are better. Games today are just plain crap compared to the indepth systems of old.
But then again, some gamers actually prefer heavy instancing, no worlds, "Free" 2P, no housing, no crafting, linear zones, linear questing, quest hubs, collect 10 of X, return Y... ad nauseum.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
I think MMO players need to realize the first good experience they had in MMO's (whatever got them into the genre) will never happen the exact same way again. The rush or addiction some felt towards thier first MMO is unlikely to be duplicated. To make matters worse, the more you play MMO's the less enjoyment you will recieve from them over time (Law of Diminishing Marginal Utility).
If you couple this with the fact that the MMO player population is growing older and more casual, you may never see a AAA title that resembles the games of old.
TL;DR.... Don't measure new games solely off of an experience you had in previous games.
Uh no, the only one thats debatable is Darkfall. TSW is a flaming wreck. And Darkfall wasn't voted #1 game.
That sounds pretty cool and what I was imagining 10 years ago while playing EQ. Anything that is new is always great, until its not new anymore than you want the next best thing to play with. It never ends, even if or when they design a game with everything you described people will still be complaining about it being boring and (insert new amazing game name) clone.
The primary brake is the nerd heirarchy (comic book nerds even lower on the pecking scale than Tolkien nerds), and how actively and zealously Marvel and DC both defend their IPs. Also more than a bit of Male-bias in comic "lore"...dragons and elves being more female-friendly thanks to McCaffrey (and others).
Now if CoH had managed to attract more housewives and console gamers...but no, b.net had them locked up.
Housewife friendly fantasy--going by my wife, that's vampires and werewolves, Janet Evanovich, Kim Harrison. Edward and Jacob for the younger set.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I see.
And which older games do you consider having "restricted gameplay" and which new games do you consider unrestricted?
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Anything that is new fails.
Anything that is old fails.
Focus on story? Fail.
Focus on PvP? Fail.
Focus on PvE? Fail.
Focus on RvR? Fail.
Focus on End-Game? Fail.
Focus on not having end-game? Fail.
Do we, the gamer, simply suck as human beings and hate everything, or has the medium really advanced as far as it can?
I don't think the later is true, though in many cases the former is.
Games as art continues to progress I think - in terms of visuals, sound, music, even story.
Games as interactable media has continued to advance, very slowly, with a huge shot in the arm by motion gaming and the Nintendo Wii - but motion gaming isn't for everyone - it's a gimmick like 3D is a gimmick for movies (IMO).
So what is next?
I truly do think the next big step will NOT be how we interact with each other or how we interact with the game - but instead how the game interacts with us.
AI needs the next big shot in the arm.