Like I said, awesome. Now we just have to convince the rest to stop paying for something that is free.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
You know Narius, I wish you could be so passionate about something important. Regardless of whatever disagreements we have and how flawed I think your logic is (and you mine), you put a lot of energy into what you do.
While I may write some stupid/mean stuff, I would not hesistate to pull you out of a burning wreck. I'd probably step on your hand by "accident" while doing so, but yeah, I'd help.
Honestly, I wish I could just pick your brain and figure out how you work. I am not going to lie, I disagree with almost everything you say (almost). But man, you sure do have passion.
Like I said, awesome. Now we just have to convince the rest to stop paying for something that is free.
This is news to me. When were MMOs ever free to develop and maintain?
Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA Tried: EQ2, Vanguard, Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Runes of Magic and countless others... Currently Playing: GW2
You know Narius, I wish you could be so passionate about something important. Regardless of whatever disagreements we have and how flawed I think your logic is (and you mine), you put a lot of energy into what you do.
While I may write some stupid/mean stuff, I would not hesistate to pull you out of a burning wreck. I'd probably step on your hand by "accident" while doing so, but yeah, I'd help.
Honestly, I wish I could just pick your brain and figure out how you work. I am not going to lie, I disagree with almost everything you say (almost). But man, you sure do have passion.
hahah .. likewise. Don't get me wrong. I wish you do have you fun in games despite the disagreement. I also bear no ill will towards you.
So i would let you in a little secret. Posting here is just relaxation for me .. to turn my brain off a bit off actual work (which i also have a passion for), and writing and framing argument is part of my work.
Sometimes i think of posting here as a way to relax but also keep my mind running .. sort of like in "neutral" of a car engine. It is a lot less taxing than having to check every sentence and make sure every point is either supported by existing literature, or can be backed up by either empirical evidence.
I don't think the developers today have good vision of what a quality mmo should be and they put business model first before a quality game. Back in the day it wasn't like this at all. Things have changed for the worse I'm afraid.
Yes MMOs are getting worse. This is because their are far too many of them, well over 500 MMOs either out or in development. MMOs were not suppost to be for everyone and that is what MMOs are trying to be now. Take Ghost Recon for example its now an MMO it was a better CO-OP/PVP FPS game than MMO.
Agreed. Maybe something will come out that NONE of us asked for and we will all be blown away. Good perspective.
It may not be a "proper" MMO as you define though.
In fact, didn't it already happen in games like Minecraft, LOL, WOT, even Maple Story? All huge successes ... have some common elements with MMO (and MS is one).
Originally posted by BadSpockAre MMOs at the point now that I thought they'd be at when I was looking ahead 10+ years ago?
Nope.
But the genre is larger, more popular, and more diverse than ever. Those are all good things.
What we really need now is a big shot in the arm in the form of technological advancement.
AI is the key step forward for truly next generation PvE - which is really what the genre is missing.
It's also possible that they may be overdue to pass from this earth.
Tolkien's been dead for a long, long time. But his stranglehold on Fantasy (seems to be) almost everlasting.
I think we're waiting for movies or television to produce something equally powerful that might also spawn an entire genre--instead we're getting Hobbit movies. Perhaps the American public isn't really ready to let Tolkien go, and so we're due for more endless (but minor) variations around the same general theme.
And since movie/television writing doesn't tend to stand up (in quality terms) to a novelist of Tolkien's order, it could be a good, long wait.
But surely there's a 'second best' theme that the industry could examine, at some point?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
What we really need now is a big shot in the arm in the form of technological advancement.
AI is the key step forward for truly next generation PvE - which is really what the genre is missing.
I'd prefer developers take some MMO history classes first to find out what worked old school.
Wouldn't you Spock? I know you loved UO, how about developers learn why that game was so awesome first and then move forward.
How often do we read/hear terms like, "ground-breaking" or "revolutionary" in MMO hype/marketing these days?
The MMO industry is broke and needs to go back to square one and build up from there. The foundation of MMOs today is the problem, just bling and hype.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Worse... well worse for me lol. I can only speak for myself here of course. I find myself uninterested in the carrot and all MMOs want to offer me these days is carrots. I'm gonna check out Wurm Online to see if that has a different feel.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
Aside from the fact that everyone here has played so many mmorpgs the intial wow factor of a new mmo is pretty short lived.
I think one of the major differences in new mmorpgs compared to mmorpgs of old is that new mmorpgs are a much more directed experience. I understand its generally a good idea to make your goals in a game clear and easy to follow, but mmos of today take this to the extreme with minimaps showing you exactly where to go etc...
Its almost like when game-networking technology was more primitive the games had to be more basic. In older mmorpg's i remember not caring about what level i was and just running around the world with my friend creating our own adventure.
I think this is why Minecraft is so popular. Because the game is so un-directed and doesnt tell you anything, you kind of enjoy finding out what the hell this game is all about. I think thats what made those old mmorpgs with little to do other than kill things and figure out your class were so fun.
Less is more!
Also im sure there is some sandboxy mmorpg out there i havent heard of, but my point still stands it needs to be done more!
Originally posted by BadSpockAre MMOs at the point now that I thought they'd be at when I was looking ahead 10+ years ago?
Nope.
But the genre is larger, more popular, and more diverse than ever. Those are all good things.
What we really need now is a big shot in the arm in the form of technological advancement.
AI is the key step forward for truly next generation PvE - which is really what the genre is missing.
It's also possible that they may be overdue to pass from this earth.
Tolkien's been dead for a long, long time. But his stranglehold on Fantasy (seems to be) almost everlasting.
I think we're waiting for movies or television to produce something equally powerful that might also spawn an entire genre--instead we're getting Hobbit movies. Perhaps the American public isn't really ready to let Tolkien go, and so we're due for more endless (but minor) variations around the same general theme.
And since movie/television writing doesn't tend to stand up (in quality terms) to a novelist of Tolkien's order, it could be a good, long wait.
But surely there's a 'second best' theme that the industry could examine, at some point?
I'm really suprised the super hero theme hasn't done better in mmorpg's. It does great at the box office. Comic books provide endless story ideas.
While I am getting tired of the fantasy setting, there's no denying Tolkien is a legend and nobody will ever really "let him go".
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
They've been in a nose dive since 2003. Vanguard and GW2 were the only AAA MMOs that even attempted to return to quality.
And to anyone claiming the genre is more diverse and successful than ever, what are you on?
Almost every single AAA MMO out there is IDENTICAL, whereas in the past they were all completely unique from one another.
What's more, almost all MMO companies are shrinking, closing servers, laying off staff, even the "successful" ones like Rift. In the past you had multiple AAA MMOs all growing together.
Originally posted by dave6660 I'm really suprised the super hero theme hasn't done better in mmorpg's. It does great at the box office. Comic books provide endless story ideas.While I am getting tired of the fantasy setting, there's no denying Tolkien is a legend and nobody will ever really "let him go".
Superheros in the box office are a very recent thing. Far more recent than MMOs. There needs to be a gritty reboot of superhero MMOs so that they feel relevant and fresh.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I voted unsure since it's probably not fair to project my own preferances on to the genre as a whole. I miss the old games, you can put me down as one of the "tinted glasses" or "get off my lawn" crew if you want.
The state of MMO's has certainly shifted from what I really enjoy, but it has also expanded. Now there are more and more games coming out with different features and ideas. Sure there is still a bit of a cash grab, attempt to copy and paste WOW's sucess but those are failing to achieve their goals. They can't just keep banging their head against that wall forever can they? I hope not.
Either way, if you're one of the people that actually likes things like, teleporting from a lobby to an instanced game, soloing to cap, dumbed down crafting ect.. Then this is your golden age. No reason to get on us too much for wanting a deeper more involved experience. You've got what? 5, maybe 6 AAA titles to chose from. Live it up and I'll hope for a bit of a retro trend to perhaps resurface.
Until then, maybe EQ1 will open another TLP server.
Originally posted by dave6660 I'm really suprised the super hero theme hasn't done better in mmorpg's. It does great at the box office. Comic books provide endless story ideas.
While I am getting tired of the fantasy setting, there's no denying Tolkien is a legend and nobody will ever really "let him go".
Superheros in the box office are a very recent thing. Far more recent than MMOs. There needs to be a gritty reboot of superhero MMOs so that they feel relevant and fresh.
No they aren't... superheroes have been huge since 2001 with the Xmen and Spiderman movies.
The reason super heroes haven't taken off is because there's only been one decent superhero MMO, City of Heroes.
But I do know the revenue models are changing and the player base has become much more sophisticated. Combined, it becomes easy to point a finger at devs and say the games are worse. But imo, it's a lot more complex than that.
But I do know the revenue models are changing and the player base has become much more sophisticated. Combined, it becomes easy to point a finger at devs and say the games are worse. But imo, it's a lot more complex than that.
The player baes has gotten more sophisticated? Uhh... what? 8 years of extremely casual MMOs aimed at the Mac, casual gamer market does not make ap layer base more sophisticated.
Originally posted by dave6660 I'm really suprised the super hero theme hasn't done better in mmorpg's. It does great at the box office. Comic books provide endless story ideas.
While I am getting tired of the fantasy setting, there's no denying Tolkien is a legend and nobody will ever really "let him go".
Superheros in the box office are a very recent thing. Far more recent than MMOs. There needs to be a gritty reboot of superhero MMOs so that they feel relevant and fresh.
No they aren't... superheroes have been huge since 2001 with the Xmen and Spiderman movies.
The reason super heroes haven't taken off is because there's only been one decent superhero MMO, City of Heroes.
You can go back much further than 2001. The original Superman with Christopher Reeve was released in 1978. That was nominated for 3 oscars. Then there was the 1986 Batman with Michael Keaton which did win an oscar.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Originally posted by DavisFlight Originally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by dave6660I'm really suprised the super hero theme hasn't done better in mmorpg's. It does great at the box office. Comic books provide endless story ideas.While I am getting tired of the fantasy setting, there's no denying Tolkien is a legend and nobody will ever really "let him go".
Superheros in the box office are a very recent thing. Far more recent than MMOs. There needs to be a gritty reboot of superhero MMOs so that they feel relevant and fresh.No they aren't... superheroes have been huge since 2001 with the Xmen and Spiderman movies.
The reason super heroes haven't taken off is because there's only been one decent superhero MMO, City of Heroes.
Talk to anyone who isn't a comic book nerd about the X-Men, and they will have no idea what you're talking about. They might remember the movie, but it'll be one of those, "Comic book movies". Then ask them about Batman and you'll get immediate name recognition. The same for Avengers.
Starting with Batman and leading to the Avengers, superheros crossed the line from nerdy comic book thing to mass appeal thing. That is recent.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Agreed. Maybe something will come out that NONE of us asked for and we will all be blown away. Good perspective.
It may not be a "proper" MMO as you define though.
In fact, didn't it already happen in games like Minecraft, LOL, WOT, even Maple Story? All huge successes ... have some common elements with MMO (and MS is one).
I wonder what the next big thing will be.
You spend most of your time on the mmorpg.com forums talking about games that are not mmorpgs (rarely are they even MMOs), but you never seem to bring up one of the funest of the fun that has released recently and has had huge success. You know, the one with the huge persistent world servers, full loot, FFA PVP, and perma death? A million people picked that puppy up in four months. To top it all off, it was just a bloody mod and not even it's own standalone title (yet). Perhaps you heard of it? DayZ.
How come you never mention that game when commenting on hugely successful non MMOs that have MMOish features? Funny that.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Originally posted by dave6660 Originally posted by DavisFlightOriginally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by dave6660I'm really suprised the super hero theme hasn't done better in mmorpg's. It does great at the box office. Comic books provide endless story ideas.While I am getting tired of the fantasy setting, there's no denying Tolkien is a legend and nobody will ever really "let him go".
Superheros in the box office are a very recent thing. Far more recent than MMOs. There needs to be a gritty reboot of superhero MMOs so that they feel relevant and fresh.No they aren't... superheroes have been huge since 2001 with the Xmen and Spiderman movies.The reason super heroes haven't taken off is because there's only been one decent superhero MMO, City of Heroes.You can go back much further than 2001. The original Superman with Christopher Reeve was released in 1978. That was nominated for 3 oscars. Then there was the 1986 Batman with Michael Keaton which did win an oscar.
They didn't lead to the popular renaissance of super hero movies that we're seeing now. They were good movies, and I think Michael Keaton was a near perfect Batman, but the movies didn't lead to anything.
I'm not saying decent super hero movies haven't been made, I'm saying it hasn't had mass appeal like it has now until after Nolan's Batman movies.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Comments
Like I said, awesome. Now we just have to convince the rest to stop paying for something that is free.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
You know Narius, I wish you could be so passionate about something important. Regardless of whatever disagreements we have and how flawed I think your logic is (and you mine), you put a lot of energy into what you do.
While I may write some stupid/mean stuff, I would not hesistate to pull you out of a burning wreck. I'd probably step on your hand by "accident" while doing so, but yeah, I'd help.
Honestly, I wish I could just pick your brain and figure out how you work. I am not going to lie, I disagree with almost everything you say (almost). But man, you sure do have passion.
This is news to me. When were MMOs ever free to develop and maintain?
Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA
Tried: EQ2, Vanguard, Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Runes of Magic and countless others...
Currently Playing: GW2
Nytlok Sylas
80 Sylvari Ranger
hahah .. likewise. Don't get me wrong. I wish you do have you fun in games despite the disagreement. I also bear no ill will towards you.
So i would let you in a little secret. Posting here is just relaxation for me .. to turn my brain off a bit off actual work (which i also have a passion for), and writing and framing argument is part of my work.
Sometimes i think of posting here as a way to relax but also keep my mind running .. sort of like in "neutral" of a car engine. It is a lot less taxing than having to check every sentence and make sure every point is either supported by existing literature, or can be backed up by either empirical evidence.
He wants to choke off F2P games. However, i highly doubt that is going to happen.
Every time someone says that movies are dying and there are no good movies anymore...
Pretty soon something new comes along that just blows people away.
Every time someone says that TV is dying and there is no good TV anymore...
Pretty soon something new comes along that just blows people away.
Every time someone says that Video Games are dying...
(I think ya'll get the point)
Are MMOs at the point now that I thought they'd be at when I was looking ahead 10+ years ago?
Nope.
But the genre is larger, more popular, and more diverse than ever. Those are all good things.
What we really need now is a big shot in the arm in the form of technological advancement.
AI is the key step forward for truly next generation PvE - which is really what the genre is missing.
Agreed. Maybe something will come out that NONE of us asked for and we will all be blown away. Good perspective.
It may not be a "proper" MMO as you define though.
In fact, didn't it already happen in games like Minecraft, LOL, WOT, even Maple Story? All huge successes ... have some common elements with MMO (and MS is one).
I wonder what the next big thing will be.
It's also possible that they may be overdue to pass from this earth.
Tolkien's been dead for a long, long time. But his stranglehold on Fantasy (seems to be) almost everlasting.
I think we're waiting for movies or television to produce something equally powerful that might also spawn an entire genre--instead we're getting Hobbit movies. Perhaps the American public isn't really ready to let Tolkien go, and so we're due for more endless (but minor) variations around the same general theme.
And since movie/television writing doesn't tend to stand up (in quality terms) to a novelist of Tolkien's order, it could be a good, long wait.
But surely there's a 'second best' theme that the industry could examine, at some point?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I'd prefer developers take some MMO history classes first to find out what worked old school.
Wouldn't you Spock? I know you loved UO, how about developers learn why that game was so awesome first and then move forward.
How often do we read/hear terms like, "ground-breaking" or "revolutionary" in MMO hype/marketing these days?
The MMO industry is broke and needs to go back to square one and build up from there. The foundation of MMOs today is the problem, just bling and hype.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Worse... well worse for me lol. I can only speak for myself here of course. I find myself uninterested in the carrot and all MMOs want to offer me these days is carrots. I'm gonna check out Wurm Online to see if that has a different feel.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
Aside from the fact that everyone here has played so many mmorpgs the intial wow factor of a new mmo is pretty short lived.
I think one of the major differences in new mmorpgs compared to mmorpgs of old is that new mmorpgs are a much more directed experience. I understand its generally a good idea to make your goals in a game clear and easy to follow, but mmos of today take this to the extreme with minimaps showing you exactly where to go etc...
Its almost like when game-networking technology was more primitive the games had to be more basic. In older mmorpg's i remember not caring about what level i was and just running around the world with my friend creating our own adventure.
I think this is why Minecraft is so popular. Because the game is so un-directed and doesnt tell you anything, you kind of enjoy finding out what the hell this game is all about. I think thats what made those old mmorpgs with little to do other than kill things and figure out your class were so fun.
Less is more!
Also im sure there is some sandboxy mmorpg out there i havent heard of, but my point still stands it needs to be done more!
I'm really suprised the super hero theme hasn't done better in mmorpg's. It does great at the box office. Comic books provide endless story ideas.
While I am getting tired of the fantasy setting, there's no denying Tolkien is a legend and nobody will ever really "let him go".
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
They've been in a nose dive since 2003. Vanguard and GW2 were the only AAA MMOs that even attempted to return to quality.
And to anyone claiming the genre is more diverse and successful than ever, what are you on?
Almost every single AAA MMO out there is IDENTICAL, whereas in the past they were all completely unique from one another.
What's more, almost all MMO companies are shrinking, closing servers, laying off staff, even the "successful" ones like Rift. In the past you had multiple AAA MMOs all growing together.
Superheros in the box office are a very recent thing. Far more recent than MMOs. There needs to be a gritty reboot of superhero MMOs so that they feel relevant and fresh.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I voted unsure since it's probably not fair to project my own preferances on to the genre as a whole. I miss the old games, you can put me down as one of the "tinted glasses" or "get off my lawn" crew if you want.
The state of MMO's has certainly shifted from what I really enjoy, but it has also expanded. Now there are more and more games coming out with different features and ideas. Sure there is still a bit of a cash grab, attempt to copy and paste WOW's sucess but those are failing to achieve their goals. They can't just keep banging their head against that wall forever can they? I hope not.
Either way, if you're one of the people that actually likes things like, teleporting from a lobby to an instanced game, soloing to cap, dumbed down crafting ect.. Then this is your golden age. No reason to get on us too much for wanting a deeper more involved experience. You've got what? 5, maybe 6 AAA titles to chose from. Live it up and I'll hope for a bit of a retro trend to perhaps resurface.
Until then, maybe EQ1 will open another TLP server.
No they aren't... superheroes have been huge since 2001 with the Xmen and Spiderman movies.
The reason super heroes haven't taken off is because there's only been one decent superhero MMO, City of Heroes.
I don't think mmos have gotten worse.
But I do know the revenue models are changing and the player base has become much more sophisticated. Combined, it becomes easy to point a finger at devs and say the games are worse. But imo, it's a lot more complex than that.
The player baes has gotten more sophisticated? Uhh... what? 8 years of extremely casual MMOs aimed at the Mac, casual gamer market does not make ap layer base more sophisticated.
You can go back much further than 2001. The original Superman with Christopher Reeve was released in 1978. That was nominated for 3 oscars. Then there was the 1986 Batman with Michael Keaton which did win an oscar.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
No they aren't... superheroes have been huge since 2001 with the Xmen and Spiderman movies.
The reason super heroes haven't taken off is because there's only been one decent superhero MMO, City of Heroes.
Talk to anyone who isn't a comic book nerd about the X-Men, and they will have no idea what you're talking about. They might remember the movie, but it'll be one of those, "Comic book movies". Then ask them about Batman and you'll get immediate name recognition. The same for Avengers.
Starting with Batman and leading to the Avengers, superheros crossed the line from nerdy comic book thing to mass appeal thing. That is recent.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
You spend most of your time on the mmorpg.com forums talking about games that are not mmorpgs (rarely are they even MMOs), but you never seem to bring up one of the funest of the fun that has released recently and has had huge success. You know, the one with the huge persistent world servers, full loot, FFA PVP, and perma death? A million people picked that puppy up in four months. To top it all off, it was just a bloody mod and not even it's own standalone title (yet). Perhaps you heard of it? DayZ.
How come you never mention that game when commenting on hugely successful non MMOs that have MMOish features? Funny that.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
No they aren't... superheroes have been huge since 2001 with the Xmen and Spiderman movies. The reason super heroes haven't taken off is because there's only been one decent superhero MMO, City of Heroes.
You can go back much further than 2001. The original Superman with Christopher Reeve was released in 1978. That was nominated for 3 oscars. Then there was the 1986 Batman with Michael Keaton which did win an oscar.
They didn't lead to the popular renaissance of super hero movies that we're seeing now. They were good movies, and I think Michael Keaton was a near perfect Batman, but the movies didn't lead to anything.
I'm not saying decent super hero movies haven't been made, I'm saying it hasn't had mass appeal like it has now until after Nolan's Batman movies.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.