I doubt an AAA sanbox will ever be made until a good AAA hybid comes out. Any AAA game needs population to recoup development cost and right now, there is just not the demand out there. Most gamers have been introduced tio MMO by the themepark model, drop them in a full sandbox and they get frustrated and scared.
EQN may be the bridge needed to see a AAA sandbox. It at least has the fan base to go in and try new things (as they use EQ2 to introduce them). But until a larger niche develops for Sandbox, I just do not see a publisher taking the risk.
Archeage is a big-budget mmo that will be published by Trion (the same publisher of Rift).
Archeage is a sandpark. It has both sandbox and themepark features. I would be excited about this game if it were not Asian made and all of the typical baggage that goes with that. We'll see if they can break the Asian MMO curse.
I doubt an AAA sanbox will ever be made until a good AAA hybid comes out. Any AAA game needs population to recoup development cost and right now, there is just not the demand out there. Most gamers have been introduced tio MMO by the themepark model, drop them in a full sandbox and they get frustrated and scared.
EQN may be the bridge needed to see a AAA sandbox. It at least has the fan base to go in and try new things (as they use EQ2 to introduce them). But until a larger niche develops for Sandbox, I just do not see a publisher taking the risk.
Archeage is a big-budget mmo that will be published by Trion (the same publisher of Rift).
Archage looks like it could be a nice bridge, but fails to deprogram the idea of levels and gear (from my understanding). It is just my opinion, but I think skill progression over levels and gear, is esential to a good sandbox game, and is the #2 reason themeparkers do not gravitate towards sandbox. #1 being open PVP.
Can't say. Just like AAA themeparks, you would have to wait for release and see what happens. I would guess that there would be an initial surge (Like most AAA games) and from there it would be a crap shoot.
I doubt an AAA sanbox will ever be made until a good AAA hybid comes out. Any AAA game needs population to recoup development cost and right now, there is just not the demand out there. Most gamers have been introduced tio MMO by the themepark model, drop them in a full sandbox and they get frustrated and scared.
EQN may be the bridge needed to see a AAA sandbox. It at least has the fan base to go in and try new things (as they use EQ2 to introduce them). But until a larger niche develops for Sandbox, I just do not see a publisher taking the risk.
Archeage is a big-budget mmo that will be published by Trion (the same publisher of Rift).
Archeage is a sandpark. It has both sandbox and themepark features. I would be excited about this game if it were not Asian made and all of the typical baggage that goes with that. We'll see if they can break the Asian MMO curse.
Let's see the themepark features of Archeage:
- Possibility to level to cap (lv 50) through quests.
- Levels.
- Some instances (althought of little importance, regarded as "training camps").
- Safe starting zones.
- Pre-made factions (althought there is freedom to defect/join factions ingame or create new factions)
Any more TP feature? I dont remember at moment.
So, these features listed above is enough to take away from AA the "sandbox" label? I think the answer is NO, since these features will not play any major influence in the most part of the expected gameplay of a medium player. They will only suit as a tutorial* and a way to avoid the mob grind to level (what is typical of korean mmos).
The pre-made factions will serve to make available players to pvp without any penaltys from the start.
*The devs themselves say that quests until lv 30 can be considered a "tutorial", presenting all the features available in the mmo to the players.
Having played Archeage, it was apparent from the get go that hardcore themepark players will take some time to adjust. Take questing for instance, while it is basically no different than Wow, it plays a small part of your overall experience and is pretty low on the list of things you must do. Since everything levels you, once you finish your early quests for your horse, rowboat, scarecrow, and glider you could abandon questing entirely. You could also choose to start investing time in the sandbox features pretty early on ( I did at about level 12). Just look at questing as an way to generate gold or an alternate way to generate XP.
One thing that I have learned from my many years of MMO"s is that everyone looks for something different in their MMO's. While for some (myself included), immersion is paramount and Archeage not only met those expectations but far exceeded them. While other players combat is the most important factor and they could care less about anything else. In my case the last game I was playing prior to Archeage was GW2 so I had to go back to standard tab target combat (although there are a lot of combos) so essentially it was a step down in combat. In my case what I gain far far far exceeds what I loose in combat so it is far from a deal breaker but for others whom could care less about the sandbox features it may be.
To me, this game offers me features I have been waiting for a very long time for and there is no other game I would play.
This game has the potention to become something we have never seen, take this video as an example of what may be possible via PVP, EPIC!
Having played Archeage, it was apparent from the get go that hardcore themepark players will take some time to adjust. Take questing for instance, while it is basically no different than Wow, it plays a small part of your overall experience and is pretty low on the list of things you must do. Since everything levels you, once you finish your early quests for your horse, rowboat, scarecrow, and glider you could abandon questing entirely. You could also choose to start investing time in the sandbox features pretty early on ( I did at about level 12). Just look at questing as an way to generate gold or an alternate way to generate XP.
One thing that I have learned from my many years of MMO"s is that everyone looks for something different in their MMO's. While for some (myself included), immersion is paramount and Archeage not only met those expectations but far exceeded them. While other players combat is the most important factor and they could care less about anything else. In my case the last game I was playing prior to Archeage was GW2 so I had to go back to standard tab target combat (although there are a lot of combos) so essentially it was a step down in combat. In my case what I gain far far far exceeds what I loose in combat so it is far from a deal breaker but for others whom could care less about the sandbox features it may be.
To me, this game offers me features I have been waiting for a very long time for and there is no other game I would play.
This game has the potention to become something we have never seen, take this video as an example of what may be possible via PVP, EPIC!
Others have said questing is the primary and most efficiant way to level. If what you say is true, this is good.
- Possibility to level to cap (lv 50) through quests.
- Levels.
- Some instances (althought of little importance, regarded as "training camps").
- Safe starting zones.
- Pre-made factions (althought there is freedom to defect/join factions ingame or create new factions)
Any more TP feature? I dont remember at moment.
So, these features listed above is enough to take away from AA the "sandbox" label? I think the answer is NO, since these features will not play any major influence in the most part of the expected gameplay of a medium player. They will only suit as a tutorial* and a way to avoid the mob grind to level (what is typical of korean mmos).
The pre-made factions will serve to make available players to pvp without any penaltys from the start.
*The devs themselves say that quests until lv 30 can be considered a "tutorial", presenting all the features available in the mmo to the players.
50 level, 10 levels, 200 levels...it is still just a linear progression. You still pick a class, reach a max level, and then become a static toon. Everyone will cry balance unfair, and a "best build" will emerge. Also read level appropriate gear will also be needed, meaning eventual gear grind. It does not need other themepark features, that right there is all the themepark a game needs to fail at being a real sandbox.
Once again a thread is created to whine about people with actual gripes whining...
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Well first off no publisher inj their right mind would ever release a sandbox game like DF or Minecraft.
Secondly they would have to implement a heavy solo centric PvE game philosophy similar to Asheron's Call with a huge exploration centric world.
Thirdly they would have to foster combat as the primary method to play the game. Sticking to building, crafting, RP'ing and mindless tedious things associated with sandbox's and their ilk is a sure fire way to lose subscribers.
Lastly the game would have to incorporate a consentual PvP system so you can forget about Open world ganking crapfests or FFA full looting systems that every sandbox indie company thinks needs to be included.
Bascially it would never happen because sandbox is niche market! and offers nothing but tedium in place of gaming systems.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Archeage is coming. We will have a opportunity to see what will really occur in a actual scenario.
Yes Archeage is coming. Already here if you play in Korea. Is it a AAA sandbox? well I am willing to grant you the AAA. As to the sandbox, well it suits part of the audience for sandbox games .... those that like a gank fest.
A bit harsh? perhaps, but it is certainly not what I would wish to see in a sandbox game. Also how sandboxy is it to have a limited range of pre-designed houses etc to build for which you must obtain standard blueprints?
Why is it not possible for player communities to establish their own "safe zones" guarded by hired NPC's if PvP is going to be so heavily featured? Why are the punishments for serial ganking almost a reward?
No this one is not for me or for a number of other people looking for a sandbox game.
I am certain you and your vast amount of other people won't be missed.
While I did not use the word "vast" I tend to agree with you. The only way we will be missed is if the game population declines rapidly due to too much ganking. Might happen but probably wont. No we will not be missed, disppointed yes but not missed.
I used the word vast to point out the little game you tried to pull.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Well first off no publisher inj their right mind would ever release a sandbox game like DF or Minecraft.
Of course no. Top publishers would release more polished products.
Secondly they would have to implement a heavy solo centric PvE game philosophy similar to Asheron's Call with a huge exploration centric world.
PVE solo centric is a trap, cause there are already a huge number of excelent single-player games in the market, and also many themeparks with single-player like content (mainly WoW, to where everyone always go back). It's no wise try to release the exact same thing from thousands of competitors.
Thirdly they would have to foster combat as the primary method to play the game. Sticking to building, crafting, RP'ing and mindless tedious things associated with sandbox's and their ilk is a sure fire way to lose subscribers.
These features serve to give reasons to fight. Combat by the sake of combat itself is boring.
Minigame pvp is also losing appeal in comparison with meaningful pvp.
Lastly the game would have to incorporate a consentual PvP system so you can forget about Open world ganking crapfests or FFA full looting systems that every sandbox indie company thinks needs to be included.
Open world PVP is necessary to allow the dispute of the huge amounts of resources in the open world (since holds until mob spots) and produce emergent game features that only free humans interactions can deliver (politics, economics, diplomacy, social meaningful interactions, etc).
50 level, 10 levels, 200 levels...it is still just a linear progression. You still pick a class, reach a max level, and then become a static toon. Everyone will cry balance unfair, and a "best build" will emerge. Also read level appropriate gear will also be needed, meaning eventual gear grind. It does not need other themepark features, that right there is all the themepark a game needs to fail at being a real sandbox.
Anyway, it will be better than anything that we have now.
I think the first option is most likely going to happen. Unless there is some major change in the way Themepark MMOs work, players will segregate themselves based on which style they prefer more. Some may make the change, but for the most part, things will stay the same. Sandbox players will go play in the sandbox and Themepark players will stay with their themeparks. Themepark players probably won't invade your game just to ruin it for you. It's not like they are out to get you and want to ruin your fun constantly.
I played WoW up until WotLK, played RoM for 2 years and now Rift. I am F2P player. I support games when I feel they deserve my money and I want the items enough. I don't troll, and I don't take kindly to trolls.
In my opinion, the second alternative is more likely to occur because the following motives: players that like themepark with single-player like content, with instant gratifications, without any risks or loses, in general "consume" the pve content provided by the developers and when that content ends (what is almost inevitable), they DONT obtain fun from the player enviroment allowed by the game itself, but asks for more and more single-player like pve content.
This make more likely they abandon their themeparks (temporaly or permanent) and "invade" the AAA sandbox, without the necessary change in behavior and mentality needed to play a sandbox and handle its enviroment (Ex: social interactions and skills, training self defense and being vigilant and smart, actively dodging dangers, tolerate and understand losses and frustrations, to have a better vision of the whole, less laziness, etc) . This create the perfect situation to little annoyances in the game (thing that they unknows) and they start whining asking for changes that let their enviroment and gameplay less risky and more "self-centered", what, if made, gradually can disfigure the mmo and make it loses its "sandboxiness".
I had a similar idea and tested it, but it was more related with permadeath then sandbox.
The game idea was
Players create a char and start.
They start at universe A.
There is no level loss, stat loss or item loss.
When they die they go to universe B.
Universe B is EXACT (not 99.999% but 100% similar) as universe A, with just one change, when you die in universe B nothing happens, you can respawn, ressurect (to universe like in your average mmorpg.
Anyway I made a poll with this idea and they said they would not "allow" it. This stretch alot the definition of permadeath, yet they would not like it.
Not yet satisfied, I decided to go even further and make another one (months after the first one), asking if they would allow a game that has 2 servers one non-permadeath and another one that is 100% like the other one but its permadeath.
I would guess that 95% of all gamers who say they hate, or would not play a title with perma death, grew up gaming on perma death and had hours of fun. Ever play Zelda? So many lives, then perma death...here is your score, start again. Every arcade game ever played had perma death, that quarter did not allow you to come back anytime and pick up where you left off. Basically, gamers just do not associate perma death as what they did.
Playing multiplayer Call2Duty, my favorite games were elimination or last man standing. 12 on 12 and trying to eliminate the opposition while trying to stay alive. Nothing was better (to me) then knowing I was the last guy and I was out numbered. The longer I lived, the more I was hunted.
If gamers could imagine this on a larger scale, in a MMORPG world. Perma death does not have to mean one death, but a limit on deaths so that dying meant one step closer to the end. How much can I accomplish in my time? Getting a sense of true accomplishment.
What would happen if a AAA sandbox mmo be released?
It would fold quicker then a spanish soccer player and then live out it's life in obscurity with a stable but tiny playerbase of rabid fans.
A bit like Eve... but smaller.
Where is this even coming from? There are plenty of players who've been waiting for a true AAA sandbox MMO to be released so what you're saying makes little sense. Just because you may not be one of those people you can't assume that most of the playerbase thinks like you because they don't.
It seems there is a belief here that if you keep rewording a question, eventually you'll get the answer that you want.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Open world PVP is necessary to allow the dispute of the huge amounts of resources in the open world (since holds until mob spots) and produce emergent game features that only free humans interactions can deliver (politics, economics, diplomacy, social meaningful interactions, etc).
ATITD
Puzzle Pirates
Free Realms
The Sims Online
Ultima Online (Trammel)
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
"AAA" has been used very loosely the last few years. What would happen if a truly AAA sandbox is released? nobody knows. Lets wait for that to happen, play it, then judge..... i think that applies for any upcoming mmo (sandbox and themepark) that claims to be AAA. Pretty graphics alone dont make anything AAA. Also anything that resembles WoW after 8 years of the same is not AAA to me either.
Comments
Archeage is a sandpark. It has both sandbox and themepark features. I would be excited about this game if it were not Asian made and all of the typical baggage that goes with that. We'll see if they can break the Asian MMO curse.
Archage looks like it could be a nice bridge, but fails to deprogram the idea of levels and gear (from my understanding). It is just my opinion, but I think skill progression over levels and gear, is esential to a good sandbox game, and is the #2 reason themeparkers do not gravitate towards sandbox. #1 being open PVP.
I self identify as a monkey.
Let's see the themepark features of Archeage:
- Possibility to level to cap (lv 50) through quests.
- Levels.
- Some instances (althought of little importance, regarded as "training camps").
- Safe starting zones.
- Pre-made factions (althought there is freedom to defect/join factions ingame or create new factions)
Any more TP feature? I dont remember at moment.
So, these features listed above is enough to take away from AA the "sandbox" label? I think the answer is NO, since these features will not play any major influence in the most part of the expected gameplay of a medium player. They will only suit as a tutorial* and a way to avoid the mob grind to level (what is typical of korean mmos).
The pre-made factions will serve to make available players to pvp without any penaltys from the start.
*The devs themselves say that quests until lv 30 can be considered a "tutorial", presenting all the features available in the mmo to the players.
Having played Archeage, it was apparent from the get go that hardcore themepark players will take some time to adjust. Take questing for instance, while it is basically no different than Wow, it plays a small part of your overall experience and is pretty low on the list of things you must do. Since everything levels you, once you finish your early quests for your horse, rowboat, scarecrow, and glider you could abandon questing entirely. You could also choose to start investing time in the sandbox features pretty early on ( I did at about level 12). Just look at questing as an way to generate gold or an alternate way to generate XP.
One thing that I have learned from my many years of MMO"s is that everyone looks for something different in their MMO's. While for some (myself included), immersion is paramount and Archeage not only met those expectations but far exceeded them. While other players combat is the most important factor and they could care less about anything else. In my case the last game I was playing prior to Archeage was GW2 so I had to go back to standard tab target combat (although there are a lot of combos) so essentially it was a step down in combat. In my case what I gain far far far exceeds what I loose in combat so it is far from a deal breaker but for others whom could care less about the sandbox features it may be.
To me, this game offers me features I have been waiting for a very long time for and there is no other game I would play.
This game has the potention to become something we have never seen, take this video as an example of what may be possible via PVP, EPIC!
Others have said questing is the primary and most efficiant way to level. If what you say is true, this is good.
Since i need to level, i prefer do it through quests than through mob grind, if only these 2 options are available.
50 level, 10 levels, 200 levels...it is still just a linear progression. You still pick a class, reach a max level, and then become a static toon. Everyone will cry balance unfair, and a "best build" will emerge. Also read level appropriate gear will also be needed, meaning eventual gear grind. It does not need other themepark features, that right there is all the themepark a game needs to fail at being a real sandbox.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Well first off no publisher inj their right mind would ever release a sandbox game like DF or Minecraft.
Secondly they would have to implement a heavy solo centric PvE game philosophy similar to Asheron's Call with a huge exploration centric world.
Thirdly they would have to foster combat as the primary method to play the game. Sticking to building, crafting, RP'ing and mindless tedious things associated with sandbox's and their ilk is a sure fire way to lose subscribers.
Lastly the game would have to incorporate a consentual PvP system so you can forget about Open world ganking crapfests or FFA full looting systems that every sandbox indie company thinks needs to be included.
Bascially it would never happen because sandbox is niche market! and offers nothing but tedium in place of gaming systems.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
I used the word vast to point out the little game you tried to pull.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Of course no. Top publishers would release more polished products.
PVE solo centric is a trap, cause there are already a huge number of excelent single-player games in the market, and also many themeparks with single-player like content (mainly WoW, to where everyone always go back). It's no wise try to release the exact same thing from thousands of competitors.
These features serve to give reasons to fight. Combat by the sake of combat itself is boring.
Minigame pvp is also losing appeal in comparison with meaningful pvp.
Open world PVP is necessary to allow the dispute of the huge amounts of resources in the open world (since holds until mob spots) and produce emergent game features that only free humans interactions can deliver (politics, economics, diplomacy, social meaningful interactions, etc).
Anyway, it will be better than anything that we have now.
It's better than nothing.
I played WoW up until WotLK, played RoM for 2 years and now Rift.
I am F2P player. I support games when I feel they deserve my money and I want the items enough.
I don't troll, and I don't take kindly to trolls.
I had a similar idea and tested it, but it was more related with permadeath then sandbox.
The game idea was
Players create a char and start.
They start at universe A.
There is no level loss, stat loss or item loss.
When they die they go to universe B.
Universe B is EXACT (not 99.999% but 100% similar) as universe A, with just one change, when you die in universe B nothing happens, you can respawn, ressurect (to universe
like in your average mmorpg.
Anyway I made a poll with this idea and they said they would not "allow" it. This stretch alot the definition of permadeath, yet they would not like it.
The thread http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/352850/page/1
Not yet satisfied, I decided to go even further and make another one (months after the first one), asking if they would allow a game that has 2 servers one non-permadeath and another one that is 100% like the other one but its permadeath.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/364518/page/1
45.8% said they wouldnt
Yes we are dooomed.
I would guess that 95% of all gamers who say they hate, or would not play a title with perma death, grew up gaming on perma death and had hours of fun. Ever play Zelda? So many lives, then perma death...here is your score, start again. Every arcade game ever played had perma death, that quarter did not allow you to come back anytime and pick up where you left off. Basically, gamers just do not associate perma death as what they did.
Playing multiplayer Call2Duty, my favorite games were elimination or last man standing. 12 on 12 and trying to eliminate the opposition while trying to stay alive. Nothing was better (to me) then knowing I was the last guy and I was out numbered. The longer I lived, the more I was hunted.
If gamers could imagine this on a larger scale, in a MMORPG world. Perma death does not have to mean one death, but a limit on deaths so that dying meant one step closer to the end. How much can I accomplish in my time? Getting a sense of true accomplishment.
I feel like I have read this threat 3 times in the last 3 years now.
Where is this even coming from? There are plenty of players who've been waiting for a true AAA sandbox MMO to be released so what you're saying makes little sense. Just because you may not be one of those people you can't assume that most of the playerbase thinks like you because they don't.
Smile
It seems there is a belief here that if you keep rewording a question, eventually you'll get the answer that you want.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
ATITD
Puzzle Pirates
Free Realms
The Sims Online
Ultima Online (Trammel)
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
AAA sandbox...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztVMib1T4T4
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky