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We dont want games - we want worlds.

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  • SuraknarSuraknar Member UncommonPosts: 852
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by Cecropia

    Originally posted by Fearum ...I'am puzzled by some of you people that can play the same game for years and years. Its like watching the same movie over and over for years... No it's not. You just haven't met the right MMO that quenches your particular thirst.  tl;dr  What games have longevity? She's on the brink of her second decade and still truckin'. Her name is EVE.    
     

    I will agree that some (many today) people have trouble understanding how one can play the same MMO for years. It can be because they never found the one for them or never had the opportunity to play one that caters to the play style.

    There are many people that played SWG for years, many people that Played UO for years, but there are also many people who played WoW for years, Lineage II for years, or EQ (and many other MMO's, EVE, POTBS, PS, WWIIO, LOTRO) etc. So this goes to show that one of the factors contributing to the decision yo play a game for years is really personal preference of the player. Some fall genuinelly in Love with a certain game that appeals much to them. Many replies here would agree with this.

    I would like to add however a response to Fearum's puzzle.

    You made the analogy that it would be same as watching the same movie over and over. And that is really not the case. Because a Sandbox game (and maybe some Themeparks) but definitelly a World Game, would not be made, is not made as, a Movie.

    The player is not a spectator, the player is a participant, in the case of a sandbox the player is a creator too and since the experience is shared this being an MMO, then the resultng experience is often different every single day you play the game. Thus you can play for years, because it is not at all like watching the same movie over and over.

    In World MMO's stories are a consequence of player interaction. So it is not like SWTOR which was made like a Movie, and once you saw it a couple of times your bored and start looking for the next one to watch.

    In a world MMO the experience evolves and changes as time passes, because it is dependent on the players and the players themseves evolve and change as time passes, therefore it is never repetitive, and can be enoyed for years.

    - Duke Suraknar -
    Order of the Silver Star, OSS

    ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
  • QuirhidQuirhid Member UncommonPosts: 6,230
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by Cecropia

    Originally posted by Fearum ...I'am puzzled by some of you people that can play the same game for years and years. Its like watching the same movie over and over for years... No it's not. You just haven't met the right MMO that quenches your particular thirst.  tl;dr  What games have longevity? She's on the brink of her second decade and still truckin'. Her name is EVE.    
     

    You're assuming that everyone operates the same way you do. If that were true, then everyone would at some point find a game that they play for years, because that's what they want to do...play the same game for a very long time. Since that doesn't happen, it makes sense to think that there are people who do not want to play the same game for years, even if it's a good game.

    Some people don't even want to play the same game for months, much less years.

     

    Yeah, very true, weird isn't it? Wonder what's wrong with them? image

    Wrong approach. It is only because no game can hold us for years, even the good ones.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by Cecropia
    Originally posted by Fearum
    ...I'am puzzled by some of you people that can play the same game for years and years. Its like watching the same movie over and over for years... No it's not. You just haven't met the right MMO that quenches your particular thirst. tl;dr  What games have longevity? She's on the brink of her second decade and still truckin'. Her name is EVE.  


    You're assuming that everyone operates the same way you do. If that were true, then everyone would at some point find a game that they play for years, because that's what they want to do...play the same game for a very long time. Since that doesn't happen, it makes sense to think that there are people who do not want to play the same game for years, even if it's a good game. Some people don't even want to play the same game for months, much less years.


    Yeah, very true, weird isn't it? Wonder what's wrong with them?


    Wrong approach. It is only because no game can hold us for years, even the good ones.




    It does highlight a point of view that a lot of people seem to take on issues like this though. It's not that game mechanic X or Y is better, it's that someone else is enjoying game mechanic X or Y that's the issue. "What's wrong with those people?"

    There are people who aren't interested in finding a game to play for months or years. There are people who just aren't that interested in playing a world centric game in an MMORPG.

    * Sometimes I hate the ever loving cr@p out of the MMORPG.com post editor.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • SuraknarSuraknar Member UncommonPosts: 852
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by Cecropia

    Originally posted by Fearum ...I'am puzzled by some of you people that can play the same game for years and years. Its like watching the same movie over and over for years... No it's not. You just haven't met the right MMO that quenches your particular thirst.  tl;dr  What games have longevity? She's on the brink of her second decade and still truckin'. Her name is EVE.    
     

    You're assuming that everyone operates the same way you do. If that were true, then everyone would at some point find a game that they play for years, because that's what they want to do...play the same game for a very long time. Since that doesn't happen, it makes sense to think that there are people who do not want to play the same game for years, even if it's a good game.

    Some people don't even want to play the same game for months, much less years.

     

    Yeah, very true, weird isn't it? Wonder what's wrong with them? image

    Wrong approach. It is only because no game can hold us for years, even the good ones.

    So me playing UO for 5 years, and SWG for 3 years (which I would still be playing if it wee not for NGE), is my immagination eh? The world is not black or white.

    - Duke Suraknar -
    Order of the Silver Star, OSS

    ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
  • OnomasOnomas Member UncommonPosts: 1,147
    More people in this thread want larger worlds, open game, and longevity than the opposite. But those 3-4 that think mmorpg's should be single player and last 3 months tops seem to keep this going and argue with everything calling us not open minded and tell us we dont have a right to that type of game. Funny, thought the shoe was on the other foot. Especialy that guy who still compared xcom to a mmorpg lol.
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601

    Perhaps this thread is not indicative of mmo gamers in general.

    and none of us have any right to any particular game.

    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • Asm0deusAsm0deus Member EpicPosts: 4,389
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    Perhaps this thread is not indicative of mmo gamers in general.

    and none of us have any right to any particular game.

    How do you know either way though, and maybe we have a right to all particular kind of games.

    Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.





  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by SuraknarSo me playing UO for 5 years, and SWG for 3 years (which I would still be playing if it wee not for NGE), is my immagination eh? The world is not black or white.

    I played WoW for three and a half years. I couldn't play it again for another three and a half years though, and I couldn't play another game like it for three and a half years. At this point, I am not approaching any game with the intent to play the game for an extended period of time. It is far more important that a game be interesting and fun soon after I start playing the game. An hour or two at the most. If there isn't something there to catch my interest in that amount of time, the game isn't going to be worth my time. Whether that leads to playing a game for days, weeks, months or years isn't really relevant.

    ** edit **
    So totally hating the cr@p out of the editor.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • SuraknarSuraknar Member UncommonPosts: 852
    Originally posted by Onomas
    More people in this thread want larger worlds, open game, and longevity than the opposite. But those 3-4 that think mmorpg's should be single player and last 3 months tops seem to keep this going and argue with everything calling us not open minded and tell us we dont have a right to that type of game. Funny, thought the shoe was on the other foot. Especialy that guy who still compared xcom to a mmorpg lol.

    I missed that, someone actually called X-Com an MMO?

    What has the genre turned in to?

    - Duke Suraknar -
    Order of the Silver Star, OSS

    ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    Perhaps this thread is not indicative of mmo gamers in general.

    and none of us have any right to any particular game.

    How do you know either way though, and maybe we have a right to all particular kind of games.

     I don't know for sure thats why I said perhaps.

    And no there is no maybe we have a right.  We dont' have a right to any game at period.  We have rights to freedom (in most of our countries) and to express our opinion (in many/most discourses).  We have rights to happiness.

    However none of those rights state we have rights to a game.  Some may want to say that the right to happiness  gives us the right to a game, but no it doesn't as there are many ways happiness can be achieved, and it is unlikely a game itself is capable of making someone happy.

    So again I stated definitively none of us have any right to a particular game, unless you make it yourself.

    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Asm0deus Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Perhaps this thread is not indicative of mmo gamers in general. and none of us have any right to any particular game.
    How do you know either way though, and maybe we have a right to all particular kind of games.
     I don't know for sure thats why I said perhaps.

    And no there is no maybe we have a right.  We dont' have a right to any game at period.  We have rights to freedom (in most of our countries) and to express our opinion (in many/most discourses).  We have rights to happiness.

    However none of those rights state we have rights to a game.  Some may want to say that the right to happiness  gives us the right to a game, but no it doesn't as there are many ways happiness can be achieved, and it is unlikely a game itself is capable of making someone happy.

    So again I stated definitively none of us have any right to a particular game, unless you make it yourself.




    I think it's the "mmo gamers in general" part that they were talking about.

    Which would get into the whole thing about which types of games sell more copies, and then that would get used to not definitively show which type of game was better, and then we'd be back around to "What's wrong with those people".

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • SuraknarSuraknar Member UncommonPosts: 852
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by SuraknarSo me playing UO for 5 years, and SWG for 3 years (which I would still be playing if it wee not for NGE), is my immagination eh? The world is not black or white.

    I played WoW for three and a half years. I couldn't play it again for another three and a half years though, and I couldn't play another game like it for three and a half years. At this point, I am not approaching any game with the intent to play the game for an extended period of time. It is far more important that a game be interesting and fun soon after I start playing the game. An hour or two at the most. If there isn't something there to catch my interest in that amount of time, the game isn't going to be worth my time. Whether that leads to playing a game for days, weeks, months or years isn't really relevant.

    ** edit **
    So totally hating the cr@p out of the editor.

     

    Fair enough. I do not think anyone said that EVERYONE should want to play an MMO for years. But in the same way EVERYONE should not be offered only MMOs designed to be played for days and months.

    There are those of us who would like still to play MMOs for years.

    if you have changed your preferences, that is fine and ok, but this does not mean that everyone else's preferences have changed allong with yours. But Companies making MMO's seem to only be making Game MMOs nevertheless, and it is becoming worse and worse.

    This is an observed behavior which leads me to beleive, all other factors being equal, that todays Devs do not have the Drive, Vision and Passion or even knowledge to create world MMOs, and instead contempt themselves in creating short lived MMOs.

    Fortunatelly, there are Independent teams which hold on to the visions, and try, at one point one will score. No matter what the "experts" of the industry are saying or doing. And you can continue playing your preference of MMOs, changing from game to game every 2-3 months while I will be able to play what I would like to play for many years and have fun too.

    And that is the common denominator here. Fun, it is a questions of Fun. At this point I am having no Fun from the offerings of the MMO Industry, they have failed to cater to my preferences and to those of all the people who would like a world MMO.

    Any clever Business person would see this as a opportunity, but apprently MMO makers today are not Business men either it seems.

    - Duke Suraknar -
    Order of the Silver Star, OSS

    ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
  • UO4everUO4ever Member Posts: 38

     

     

    It's not the devs' fault   ~ the suits are genetically incapable of understanding.. anything!

     

    especially global warning..

     

     

     

  • SuraknarSuraknar Member UncommonPosts: 852
    Originally posted by UO4ever

     

     

    It's not the devs' fault   ~ the suits are genetically incapable of understanding.. anything!

     

    especially global warning..

     

     

     

    Then the solution is simple...Change Suits. If they do not understand, their loss, knock another door.

    - Duke Suraknar -
    Order of the Silver Star, OSS

    ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
  • BanaghranBanaghran Member Posts: 869
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    Actualy it makes perfect sense. Just because a game (or anything for that matter) is good doesn't mean people want to keep doing over long stretches of time. Some people get their fill and for them it's time to move on.

    You might ask them if they then thought the game was good and they would say "sure, loved it but I want to do other things".

    This happens in other aspects of life as well.

    Well, it mostly shows, that if you want, you can rationalize anything.

    The main question is if we should, and more importantly, if the devs should.

    That is kinda half of the problem overall, 200k becomes the new 2m, 2 weeks become the new 2 months, 8 players becomes massive, a game with just twice the polygons in objects becomes more complex...

    Flame on!

    :)

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Banaghran
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     

    You're assuming that everyone operates the same way you do. If that were true, then everyone would at some point find a game that they play for years, because that's what they want to do...play the same game for a very long time. Since that doesn't happen, it makes sense to think that there are people who do not want to play the same game for years, even if it's a good game.

    Some people don't even want to play the same game for months, much less years.

     

    "I like the game soo much that i want to play it as lttle as possible" is a bit outlandish even for these discussions, dont you think?

    Flame on!

    :)

    He didn't say that. No one said "as little as possible". I am sure 5 hours will be better than 5 min for most games. But 5 hours is probably also better than 5 years for most games.

    You don't get the concept of a non-montonic dependence? There is no one says you either have to have "as much as possible" or "as little as possible. It is possible to have a middle ground and a "sweet spot".

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Onomas
    More people in this thread want larger worlds, open game, and longevity than the opposite. But those 3-4 that think mmorpg's should be single player and last 3 months tops seem to keep this going and argue with everything calling us not open minded and tell us we dont have a right to that type of game. Funny, thought the shoe was on the other foot. Especialy that guy who still compared xcom to a mmorpg lol.

    No one tells you you don't have a right to your preference. You certainly don't have a right to demand devs for anything. It seems that you are ranting on them just because they cater to the market, instead of you.

    And if you can state what you like, why is it wrong for us to state what we like? Those who like MMO to be more assessible (and btw, it is lobby co-op online game, not SP .. i alwasy LOL when people can't tell the difference between D3 and DIshonored), and don't need to commit their lives to a GAME .. their preference is as valid as yours.

    And certainly you are not open minded when you totally dismiss the newer development in MMOs and hold onto old tried and failed ideas.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Suraknar

    There are those of us who would like still to play MMOs for years.

    Any clever Business person would see this as a opportunity, but apprently MMO makers today are not Business men either it seems.

    How many of "you" are there? 1000 won't make a MMO business.

    Any clever business person would do market sizing research first instead of putting 10s of millions of investment with no better information than "i think so".

  • ArclanArclan Member UncommonPosts: 1,550


    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Suraknar There are those of us who would like still to play MMOs for years. Any clever Business person would see this as a opportunity, but apprently MMO makers today are not Business men either it seems.
    How many of "you" are there? 1000 won't make a MMO business.

    Any clever business person would do market sizing research first instead of putting 10s of millions of investment with no better information than "i think so".


    Proof that no clever business person exists in the MMO Industry, since all current MMOs have been tanking shortly after launch. Off the top of my head:

    Age of Conan
    Pirates of the burning sea
    Start Trek Online
    DDO
    LOTRO
    SWTOR
    TSW
    D3
    GW2

    and countless others. I have been watching for years and not one 'good' game has come out. By 'good' I mean can keep people's interest longer than a single player game.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Arclan

     


    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Suraknar There are those of us who would like still to play MMOs for years. Any clever Business person would see this as a opportunity, but apprently MMO makers today are not Business men either it seems.
    How many of "you" are there? 1000 won't make a MMO business.

     

    Any clever business person would do market sizing research first instead of putting 10s of millions of investment with no better information than "i think so".


     

    Proof that no clever business person exists in the MMO Industry, since all current MMOs have been tanking shortly after launch.

    Not GW1 & GW2. Not F2P conversion. DDO, LOTRO .. and many other MMOs made more money after F2P conversion. That is a good move.

    Maple Story is successful.

    And of course there are all those online non-MMOs like LOL, WOT, D3 .. very successful business-wise. May be the lesson is to develop non-MMOs?

    And all should learn from Blizz if business results are the goal. Every game/expansion Blizz release in the past few years are hit .. even MOP sold 3+M in the first week.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by Suraknar
    Originally posted by lizardbones   Originally posted by SuraknarSo me playing UO for 5 years, and SWG for 3 years (which I would still be playing if it wee not for NGE), is my immagination eh? The world is not black or white.
    I played WoW for three and a half years. I couldn't play it again for another three and a half years though, and I couldn't play another game like it for three and a half years. At this point, I am not approaching any game with the intent to play the game for an extended period of time. It is far more important that a game be interesting and fun soon after I start playing the game. An hour or two at the most. If there isn't something there to catch my interest in that amount of time, the game isn't going to be worth my time. Whether that leads to playing a game for days, weeks, months or years isn't really relevant. ** edit ** So totally hating the cr@p out of the editor.  
    Fair enough. I do not think anyone said that EVERYONE should want to play an MMO for years. But in the same way EVERYONE should not be offered only MMOs designed to be played for days and months.

    There are those of us who would like still to play MMOs for years.

    if you have changed your preferences, that is fine and ok, but this does not mean that everyone else's preferences have changed allong with yours. But Companies making MMO's seem to only be making Game MMOs nevertheless, and it is becoming worse and worse.

    This is an observed behavior which leads me to beleive, all other factors being equal, that todays Devs do not have the Drive, Vision and Passion or even knowledge to create world MMOs, and instead contempt themselves in creating short lived MMOs.

    Fortunatelly, there are Independent teams which hold on to the visions, and try, at one point one will score. No matter what the "experts" of the industry are saying or doing. And you can continue playing your preference of MMOs, changing from game to game every 2-3 months while I will be able to play what I would like to play for many years and have fun too.

    And that is the common denominator here. Fun, it is a questions of Fun. At this point I am having no Fun from the offerings of the MMO Industry, they have failed to cater to my preferences and to those of all the people who would like a world MMO.

    Any clever Business person would see this as a opportunity, but apprently MMO makers today are not Business men either it seems.




    Has it occurred to you that a player base only interested in playing games for years would not result in a lot of new games getting made? What's the point in creating a new game, if the players don't want to play new games?

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • BanaghranBanaghran Member Posts: 869
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by Banaghran

    Originally posted by lizardbones   You're assuming that everyone operates the same way you do. If that were true, then everyone would at some point find a game that they play for years, because that's what they want to do...play the same game for a very long time. Since that doesn't happen, it makes sense to think that there are people who do not want to play the same game for years, even if it's a good game. Some people don't even want to play the same game for months, much less years.  
    "I like the game soo much that i want to play it as lttle as possible" is a bit outlandish even for these discussions, dont you think?

     

    Flame on!

    :)



    Of course people who are having fun in a game will continue to play that game. Dur*. That ignores the idea that some people just don't feel like playing games for a long period of time. They prefer seeing something unknown, shiny and new to something known, well worn and comfortable.
     

    Would that not mean that those people would maybe play a mmorpg that constantly and completely changes for years?

    Within the original argument?

    Flame on!

    :)

  • BanaghranBanaghran Member Posts: 869
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Banaghran
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     

    You're assuming that everyone operates the same way you do. If that were true, then everyone would at some point find a game that they play for years, because that's what they want to do...play the same game for a very long time. Since that doesn't happen, it makes sense to think that there are people who do not want to play the same game for years, even if it's a good game.

    Some people don't even want to play the same game for months, much less years.

     

    "I like the game soo much that i want to play it as lttle as possible" is a bit outlandish even for these discussions, dont you think?

    Flame on!

    :)

    He didn't say that. No one said "as little as possible". I am sure 5 hours will be better than 5 min for most games. But 5 hours is probably also better than 5 years for most games.

    You don't get the concept of a non-montonic dependence? There is no one says you either have to have "as much as possible" or "as little as possible. It is possible to have a middle ground and a "sweet spot".

     

    Maybe i get it more than you get hyperbole :)

    My goal was more or less to point out the absurdity of the notion of even talking about players that think along the lines "geez, i played this game for far too long, im still having fun, but i guess i will stop now", their decision to leave being arbitrary to the quality and subjective entertainment value of the game.

    Now if you want to talk real reasons people leave or stop playing, like boredom, nothing to look forward, lack of excitement, im all game. It is easy to say, "people leave because they leave, lets not put any effort in , they will leave anyways".

    And, pardon me, but "sweet spot" mentioned now, after 66 pages, and by YOU, that is wrong, just wrong :)

    Flame on!

    :)

  • BanaghranBanaghran Member Posts: 869
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     

    Has it occurred to you that a player base only interested in playing games for years would not result in a lot of new games getting made? What's the point in creating a new game, if the players don't want to play new games?

     

    That someone likes to play a game for a long time does not mean, that he will never play another game, or that he might not be swayed if a new game looks sufficiently appealing.

    There are currently 2 billion people on the internet, if there is something positive to learn from wow and social gaming, its that the audience is there, even if they dont know it yet.

    But ofcourse if we target just one highly specific part of the audience, that is the only thing we will get.

    Flame on!

    :)

  • CecropiaCecropia Member RarePosts: 3,985
    Originally posted by Banaghran
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     

    Has it occurred to you that a player base only interested in playing games for years would not result in a lot of new games getting made? What's the point in creating a new game, if the players don't want to play new games?

     

    That someone likes to play a game for a long time does not mean, that he will never play another game, or that he might not be swayed if a new game looks sufficiently appealing.

    There are currently 2 billion people on the internet, if there is something positive to learn from wow and social gaming, its that the audience is there, even if they dont know it yet.

    But ofcourse if we target just one highly specific part of the audience, that is the only thing we will get.

    Flame on!

    :)

    Good points.

    Now that I think about it; I can't even tell you how many other games, both MMO and not, that I played alongside EVE during my 6 years with that gem. I love having an "MMO home" and a bunch of other "cheap thrills games" to satisfy my appetite.

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

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