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Why no themepark and sandbox can ever succeed after WoW and EVE

TheScavengerTheScavenger Matrix, NYPosts: 911Member Uncommon

and its not because its a themepark and sandboxers hate themeparks. And its not because sandbox games are all indie games.

 

For themeparks. Its because people complain that there is no endgame content within 1 month (or some complain 3 months) after release. Stating at the same time, that WoW has TONS of endgame content and way more stuff to do. While forgetting that WoW endgame content sucked until Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich King (I liked fighting Arthas, for lore reasons...)...future expansions added lots of content (but I stopped playing after cataclysm)

That means NO themepark can ever succeed. As I've seen MMOs die SO fast due to not nearly as much endgame content as WoW. People don't even give the game a year (like they did with WoW), before mass leaving. No themepark, no matter how much money is spent, can ever catch up to WoW at release. Now, since WoW only comes out with 2 patches a year and an expansion every 1-2 years...MMOs can come out with much faster updates (every month like RIFT), and end up with more content. But most people don't give MMOs the chance to do so, and just end up going to WoW where there is tons of content.

 

Then there is EVE. The opposite genre of WoW. No sandbox game can ever compete with EVE. EVE nails PvP, so why play a clone of EVE's pvp system? EVE nails diplomacy, which has taken YEARS to develop. No sandbox game can ever spend enough time before its release, to develop diplomacy. On top of that, like WoW...EVE has TONS of content. So much to do. Now PvErs may not like EVE...but Ryzom is a PvE sandbox, and its dead...many polls on MMORPG and elsewhere, most people won't play a pure PvE sandbox.  They want at least SOME PvP. However, even EVE PvE got way better once they introduced events, wormholes and all that jazz...

 

No sandbox MMO can ever catch up to EVE in terms of stability (including lack of bugs) AND content. I've seen many sandbox MMOs come out and people complain there is no content (or lack of it), or EVE is better at x and y or any number of things.

 

So, in other words...unless you come out at RELEASE with as much content as EVE and WoW (which is impossible), most people will leave before the year is up and not give it a chance. How do I know this? I've seen this almost everywhere, on official MMO forums, MMORPG.com and other online game forums...most people leave because of lack of content at release.

People keep hoping for THE ONE MMO..but they don't give THE ONE a chance. Instead they leave within 3 months due to lack of content and go back to WoW and EVE. Doesn't matter if its a sandbox or a themepark, you need as much (and high) quality content as the two big MMOs in their genre.

 

(edit: Fixed a spacing error, added a line at end of the post)

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Comments

  • muffins89muffins89 Yakima, WAPosts: 1,306Member Uncommon

    "People keep hoping for THE ONE MMO..but they don't give THE ONE a chance. Instead they leave within 3 months due to lack of content and go back to WoW and EVE. Doesn't matter if its a sandbox or a themepark, you need as much (and high) quality content as the two big MMOs in their genre."

     

    that should be most people.

     

    i tend to agree with your overall sentiment but,  a game doesnt need millions or even 1 million people to be successful. 

    I think the prostitute mod corrupted your game files man. -elhefen

  • YakkinYakkin irvine, CAPosts: 919Member
    Originally posted by muffins89

    "People keep hoping for THE ONE MMO..but they don't give THE ONE a chance. Instead they leave within 3 months due to lack of content and go back to WoW and EVE. Doesn't matter if its a sandbox or a themepark, you need as much (and high) quality content as the two big MMOs in their genre."

    that should be most people.

    i tend to agree with your overall sentiment but,  a game doesnt need millions or even 1 million people to be successful. 

    I can't help but feel that most people do feel that an MMO needs millions in order to be worth anything, even the people crying for a sandbox MMO.

    I also get the feeling that most of them forgot about the origins of their favorite MMOs, that most of them didn't exactly start out as enormous mega giants.

  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 3,758Member Uncommon
       I'd agree with WoW, but dont agree on EVE.....EVE does well for what it is but not everyone likes being a spaceship....Someday someone will do fantasy sandbox right and the game will take off.....Maybe not 10 million+ strong but it will do well once it is done right.
  • YakkinYakkin irvine, CAPosts: 919Member
    Originally posted by Theocritus
       I'd agree with WoW, but dont agree on EVE.....EVE does well for what it is but not everyone likes being a spaceship....Someday someone will do fantasy sandbox right and the game will take off.....Maybe not 10 million+ strong but it will do well once it is done right.

    I personally consider this wishful thinking. Something untested is not just going to take off and gain millions. Even EVE started off sluggish, at least based on the history I looked up.

  • ElderRatElderRat Syracuse, NYPosts: 899Member

     

     

     

    Then there is EVE. The opposite genre of WoW. No sandbox game can ever compete with EVE. EVE nails PvP, so why play a clone of EVE's pvp system? EVE nails diplomacy, which has taken YEARS to develop. No sandbox game can ever spend enough time before its release, to develop diplomacy. On top of that, like WoW...EVE has TONS of content. So much to do. Now PvErs may not like EVE...but Ryzom is a PvE sandbox, and its dead...many polls on MMORPG and elsewhere, most people won't play a pure PvE sandbox.  They want at least SOME PvP. However, even EVE PvE got way better once they introduced events, wormholes and all that jazz...

     

     

    the makers of EVE are making World of Darkness and I think that, given all the experience they have gained WoD will be awesome, and not sci-fi. Granted many may not like the vampire idea, but factor in the politics among the clans of vampires and I think it will be a game that will be as good as EVE.  

     Also never is a very long time.

    Currently bored with MMO's.

  • FusionFusion VaasaPosts: 1,391Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ElderRat

     

     

     

    Then there is EVE. The opposite genre of WoW. No sandbox game can ever compete with EVE. EVE nails PvP, so why play a clone of EVE's pvp system? EVE nails diplomacy, which has taken YEARS to develop. No sandbox game can ever spend enough time before its release, to develop diplomacy. On top of that, like WoW...EVE has TONS of content. So much to do. Now PvErs may not like EVE...but Ryzom is a PvE sandbox, and its dead...many polls on MMORPG and elsewhere, most people won't play a pure PvE sandbox.  They want at least SOME PvP. However, even EVE PvE got way better once they introduced events, wormholes and all that jazz...

     

     

    the makers of EVE are making World of Darkness and I think that, given all the experience they have gained WoD will be awesome, and not sci-fi. Granted many may not like the vampire idea, but factor in the politics among the clans of vampires and I think it will be a game that will be as good as EVE.  

     Also never is a very long time.

    I'm really sceptical towards CCP making WoD...

    Currently playing: -

    Waiting for: Class4.

    Dead and Buried: ESO, NWO, GW2, SWTOR, Darkfall, AO, AC2, Vanguard, CoH/V, EnB, EVE, Neocron, FE, EQ, EQ2, DAoC, FFXI, FFXIV, SWG, WoW, and billions of eastern junks!

  • ThaneThane berlinPosts: 2,232Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by TheScavenger

    (...)

    Now, since WoW only comes out with 2 patches a year and an expansion every 1-2 years...MMOs can come out with much faster updates (every month like RIFT)

    (...)

    all i see from rift is "storm legion update! storm legion soon! play storm legion... but not now! soooon!"

    someone seriously should get rid of his pink glasses :)

    (and in the end, it dont see alot of new things in rift either... sorry)

     

     

    uh and wow with 2 patches a year? you didnt really follow WoW did ya?

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Matrix, NYPosts: 911Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Theocritus
       I'd agree with WoW, but dont agree on EVE.....EVE does well for what it is but not everyone likes being a spaceship....Someday someone will do fantasy sandbox right and the game will take off.....Maybe not 10 million+ strong but it will do well once it is done right.

    There was SWG which is considered one of the best sandbox MMOs. However, unlike EVE...and what many people don't say...even before NGE and even before the combat update, I saw population dropping slowly (but steadily). So, even playing as an actual character, doesn't seem to work.

     

    Granted, SWG was rather buggy...but, that was REALLY common back in the early days of MMOs Still is to some degree.

     

    Having said that...as I briefly mentioned, Ryzom (while it is Sci-Fi and not Fantasy)...isn't you as a spaceship...and that game has gone bankrupt many times and barely as any population (last I looked, before the server merges). Though I did say it was pure PvE, and while it focuses on PvE...it has PvP in it. With outposts and not sure if anything else. So I correct myself on that. But Ryzom has lots of interesting and good features, not as much content as other MMOs...but the environment and animal/character interaction is bar none, the best. But, barely anyone plays it. Well, not sure what its like now after the merges...haven't heard anything about it in a while.

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  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,008Member Uncommon
    Put the time(sinks) back into MMOs and you'll begin to retain players again. Those who don't like this set of design won't stick around no matter what you try to do. Nothing will ever entertain them over the long term. MMORPGs used to be designed for the patient and persiverent. They could be once again.

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Matrix, NYPosts: 911Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Thane
    Originally posted by TheScavenger

    (...)

    Now, since WoW only comes out with 2 patches a year and an expansion every 1-2 years...MMOs can come out with much faster updates (every month like RIFT)

    (...)

    all i see from rift is "storm legion update! storm legion soon! play storm legion... but not now! soooon!"

    someone seriously should get rid of his pink glasses :)

    (and in the end, it dont see alot of new things in rift either... sorry)

     

     

    uh and wow with 2 patches a year? you didnt really follow WoW did ya?

    I don't play RIFT, (I do however like the company) and I stopped playing WoW in Cataclysm. I only remember seeing two huge content patches a year for WoW that were advertised on the front page of the official site. Maybe my dislike for Cataclysm/Panderia is clouding my memory...but I'm pretty sure there was only 2, MAYBE 3 at most a year. All the rest were "little" ones that weren't newsworthy. I know it wasn't nearly as many as other MMOs. I remember waiting for like 5 months for the Cataclysm patch...I was unsubscribed that whole time, since I was looking forward to it. It seemed like ages before the pre-expansion patch was released.

     

    RIFT however, I see large content patches announced every 1-3 months. But to be honest, maybe that changed...I haven't kept up on RIFT this year, been focused on other stuff and college...so much homework in college. Glad I only took one class lol.

     

    Anyway...I do know RIFT was sure releasing constant patches last year. That was one of the things I kept reading about on forums, is how Trion gave so many content updates to RIFT. and seeing constant updates.

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  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Matrix, NYPosts: 911Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Put the time(sinks) back into MMOs and you'll begin to retain players again. Those who don't like this set of design won't stick around no matter what you try to do. Nothing will ever entertain them over the long term. MMORPGs used to be designed for the patient and persiverent. They could be once again.

    Yes. This is why I played so long with WoW (before Cataclysm), EVE, Ryzom, UO, Asheron's Call, Ultima Online...and somewhat SWG (but I personally stopped shortly before combat update).

     

    Actually, somewhat true to LOTRO too...

     

    Seeing as LOTRO is a good example. It used to take a long time to level up, you could finish 100% an area and not outlevel any quests. Then they "dumbed" the game down, made it faster to level, made things easier...less time sinks and do 3-5 quests and you outlevel all the others...I reached max level, sped (well, content went REALLY fast, because how easy they made it...I even tried taking my time)...and was done in 3 months.

     

    WoW, before Cataclysm...could spend lots of time doing crafting/leveling...took a lot of time to do those things. Took time to get equipment. Then they sped it up, less time sinks...and ran out of stuff to do...cause it went by so fast.

     

    Then the best examples, SWG/EVE/AC/UO/Ryzom...all took a long time to level up and reach your potential. (for me) except for SWG...I played all of those for years, and felt very rewarded for accomplishing things.

     

    So, there is "lack" of content...but maybe that lack of content comes with how fast they make the content go by.

    image
  • Saur0nSaur0n Denver, COPosts: 115Member Uncommon
    It's not about the player population or how good the game is.  It's about making as much money as possible in a short time.  When all the trust fund jocks that run the publishing companies are put up against a wall and shot we'll have quality back.
  • Params7Params7 Runnemede, NJPosts: 204Member
    This thread is wrong just from its topic title. There's always new markets out there and old ones to reconvert.
  • tank017tank017 Glendale, CAPosts: 2,192Member

    I disagree..

     

    Rift and Guild War 2 are perfect examples of successful theme parks.I also think TSW has a good chance to grow its population due to how unique the game is.If Funcom does things right,they will succeed imo..

     

    Sandoxes,the sky is the limit.I believe if a major company nails a high budget sandbox,it'll be a gold mine.There simply arent enough GOOD,QUALITY, sandboxes in the market,so it is ripe for the taking.

     

    you have Eve and.......................?

  • TacoShankTacoShank Minneapolis, MNPosts: 23Member

    I'm sorry, but saying there will never be another successful themepark or sandbox MMO is simply alarmist.

    Is your definition of success 10 million+ subscribers? There are plenty of MMOs that are turning a profit right now without those numbers, but that doesn't mean they have failed.

    Even if you consider having under 10 million subscribers a failure (which in this case would mean EvE is a failure as well), are you honestly willing to say that a rapidly growing market like the video game industry will never see another success story like WoW?

    Be a little more conservative with your absolutes if you can't predict the future absolutely.

  • ozmonoozmono Not tellingPosts: 1,211Member
    Originally posted by tank017

     

    Sandoxes,the sky is the limit.I believe if a major company nails a high budget sandbox,it'll be a gold mine.

    I'm a believer too.

  • artemisentr4artemisentr4 fresno, CAPosts: 1,431Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by TheScavenger
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Put the time(sinks) back into MMOs and you'll begin to retain players again. Those who don't like this set of design won't stick around no matter what you try to do. Nothing will ever entertain them over the long term. MMORPGs used to be designed for the patient and persiverent. They could be once again.

    Yes. This is why I played so long with WoW (before Cataclysm), EVE, Ryzom, UO, Asheron's Call, Ultima Online...and somewhat SWG (but I personally stopped shortly before combat update).

     

    Actually, somewhat true to LOTRO too...

     

    Seeing as LOTRO is a good example. It used to take a long time to level up, you could finish 100% an area and not outlevel any quests. Then they "dumbed" the game down, made it faster to level, made things easier...less time sinks and do 3-5 quests and you outlevel all the others...I reached max level, sped (well, content went REALLY fast, because how easy they made it...I even tried taking my time)...and was done in 3 months.

     

    WoW, before Cataclysm...could spend lots of time doing crafting/leveling...took a lot of time to do those things. Took time to get equipment. Then they sped it up, less time sinks...and ran out of stuff to do...cause it went by so fast.

     

    Then the best examples, SWG/EVE/AC/UO/Ryzom...all took a long time to level up and reach your potential. (for me) except for SWG...I played all of those for years, and felt very rewarded for accomplishing things.

     

    So, there is "lack" of content...but maybe that lack of content comes with how fast they make the content go by.

    I agree with this. Even though many hate chacing the carrot, it works. The grind is part of the game. Having quests take minutes to complete and leveling in hours instead of days makes the end game the only game. Because the questing is over so fast that there is no reason for it.

     

    So it comes down to raid or die, grind PvP at end game, grind skills and that is all the game is. I would love to see quests that take hours as basic quests. Dungeons that can take days instead of hours to complete. And level caps or skill caps that take months instead of days or weeks. But the player base seems to have ADD today. So we are stuck because that is what seems to sell.

    “How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?”
    R.A.Salvatore

  • OnomasOnomas Rock Hill, SCPosts: 1,128Member Uncommon

    Thats not a very good thread, considering all game companies started out as indie lol.

    The fact that blizzards first attempt at a mmo came at the perfect time when more kids were getting online and exploring the web. When mmo's first came out not many had internet access ;)

    MMO's were also designed for adults, and blizzard went after the kiddies and it killed mmo's. Newage gamers wanted mmo's to be easy, non-complex, no features, just rush to the end and whine on the forums. That is what the genre has ammounted to.

    Blizzard did have a name and strong experience in game making, but for single rts and single player games.

     

    There are a few sandboxes coming that are very good looking and have many aspects of a true mmo and will do well. Asians are starting to swing to sandboxes because themepark market has been beaten to death multiple times. THats why no game is doing well, they are all the same, lack 75% of features a mmo should have, and are boring. THey are no more than console rpg's and its sickening.

     

    I do think The repopulation, greed monger, the black desert, and of course archeage will do well. But doesnt ahve to beat WOW, wouldnt want the bad community to ruin any new games anyways. The kiddies can stay there ;)

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,257Member Uncommon
    So I believe the question comes down to, Why is it that no other sandbox MMO has been more successful than Eve? Can any of you answer that?

    image

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,257Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Onomas

    Thats not a very good thread, considering all game companies started out as indie lol.

    The fact that blizzards first attempt at a mmo came at the perfect time when more kids were getting online and exploring the web. When mmo's first came out not many had internet access ;)

    MMO's were also designed for adults, and blizzard went after the kiddies and it killed mmo's. Newage gamers wanted mmo's to be easy, non-complex, no features, just rush to the end and whine on the forums. That is what the genre has ammounted to.

    Blizzard did have a name and strong experience in game making, but for single rts and single player games.

     

    There are a few sandboxes coming that are very good looking and have many aspects of a true mmo and will do well. Asians are starting to swing to sandboxes because themepark market has been beaten to death multiple times. THats why no game is doing well, they are all the same, lack 75% of features a mmo should have, and are boring. THey are no more than console rpg's and its sickening.

     

    I do think The repopulation, greed monger, the black desert, and of course archeage will do well. But doesnt ahve to beat WOW, wouldnt want the bad community to ruin any new games anyways. The kiddies can stay there ;)

    Huh? You clearly didn't play Vanilla WoW. 

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  • ozmonoozmono Not tellingPosts: 1,211Member
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Put the time(sinks) back into MMOs and you'll begin to retain players again. Those who don't like this set of design won't stick around no matter what you try to do. Nothing will ever entertain them over the long term. MMORPGs used to be designed for the patient and persiverent. They could be once again.

    It seems there are more and more of "Those who don't like this set of design" but I tend to think it's because they know what they want and aren't getting it. I think there seems to be more and more of them because they are getting sick of the fundamental mmo design and they aren't sticking around in new games they try because they keep getting promised certain things which are misleading. Buzzwords like sandbox and dynamic are thrown around and they getted sucked into things they aren't looking for. That and new features are too little for someone who has become bored with the genre and it takes experience to understand that. I think this as someone who tries most games but stays around for very few and as someone who hears what others like me are saying.


     

    Maybe you wouldn't be able to satisfy them on mass but for companies to ignore players who try a game but don't continue to play it would be foolish in the extreme. Failing to understand what disenfranchised MMO players want when considering funding new games or when dealing with a declining playerbase would also be foolish.

     

  • PivotelitePivotelite Hamilton, ONPosts: 2,167Member
    Originally posted by tank017

    I disagree..

     

    Rift and Guild War 2 are perfect examples of successful theme parks.

     I disagree with that, GW2 is hardly two months old and i'm noticing similar player drop-off as I did with SWTOR and TERA, there's literally a fraction of what was there before. Logged on prime time to see only 25 hot-join PvP matches with a decent amount of players, before it was 120+. WvW barely has queues anymore and i'm on #1 ranked server Stormbluff Isle.

     

    Now on to rift, it still isn't gaining players even though Trion works harder than I could ever expect any developers to work. Storm Legion has not come out yet but from what I've seen in BETA they had what...one BETA server and it had medium population? Tripling world size, amazing player housing, adding new raids, new souls, giant interactive world bosses...nope, almost everyone was already done with Rift a month after it launched.

     

    Nobody is willing to give games time anymore and it's showing in the industry, but this is coupled with the other thing WoW has started... X game doesn't have a million players, it's not popular so it's probably going to go F2P and it's not worth my time.

     

    You will never see another themepark from this day onward live as long as WoW or have even half the playerbase for a fraction of the time.

     

    MMOs are in trouble because this is the "I want it now generation".

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  • OnomasOnomas Rock Hill, SCPosts: 1,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Pivotelite

     

    MMOs are in trouble because this is the "I want it now generation".

    God i miss the older days when you actualy had to earn something and it felt so damn good. Now everything is thrown at you and the hardest thing in a mmo is waiting til level 20 to ride a mount ;) These new aged gamers ruined the mmo genre then whine about all the console style rpgs............. errr themeparks all suck and no content lol. Funny they havent figures out that player generated content owns everything. THey lost their creativity and it has hurt our community.

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,206Member Uncommon

    Actually, EVE being so far out there - you rarely see your character - makes room for a typical 'guy with sword and shield' sandbox.

     

     

    not one that would estabilize eve, but one that would be fantasy - not scifi.

     

    EVE is not a sandbox killer. even in the realm of sandboxes eve is a weird oddity.

     

    No new mmo can compete with eve, but luckily they don't have to. add a floor and you're an entirely different game than eve. That's it.

     

    what are the main anti-eve complaints? "i'm a ship, the UI is confusing".

     

    take it down from 3D into 2D and the ship problem's gone, UI simplifies infinitely...and you're already doing well.

     

    maybe no themepark can compete with wow yet, but theres room for a great ground-level sandbox in parallel with eve without needing to compete.

     

     

    @Onomas: it's not their fault. They don't know any different. It's the gaming companies that tried to chase them as consumers. THEY knew better.

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  • LoLifeLoLife LA, CAPosts: 174Member
    Originally posted by tank017

    I disagree..

     

    Rift and Guild War 2 are perfect examples of successful theme parks.I also think TSW has a good chance to grow its population due to how unique the game is.If Funcom does things right,they will succeed imo..

     

    Sandoxes,the sky is the limit.I believe if a major company nails a high budget sandbox,it'll be a gold mine.There simply arent enough GOOD,QUALITY, sandboxes in the market,so it is ripe for the taking.

     

    you have Eve and.......................?

    I'm hoping EQ-Next will be the one.

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