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Death of a fanboy, or why one fan is semi-quitting the game

ZylaxxZylaxx Erlanger, KYPosts: 2,574Member

Before I start I want to post a couple caveats:

  • I think GW2 is the most original MMO since WoW
  • I think GW2 has alot of potential
  • I still love aspects of the game
  • I will make references to the future of GW2 being bright
  • I will compare my feelings of GW2 based on games that are not out yet
 
 
Ok I think alot of you know I have been a very vocal and ardent supporter of the game and I confess the idea of GW2 is still very much alive but the dream died for me the last 3 days.  I hit 100% world completion (FINALLY after 325 hours of /played time) Saturday night (which as of this writing was 5 days ago) and have since discovered that theres nothing really for me to work for or do.  I suspect I have grown apart from MMO's and they no longer appeal to me but who knows, since I still actively read and comment on all things MMO related.  I know in my heart I still love to play MMO's but maybe its just that I like the leveling up portion of a new game more so.  As an axample on Tuesday night I fired up Skyrim and made a new character, made it to level 8 and grew bored.  Basically I become bored because I've already seen all the content.  Last night I fired up Torchlight 2, made a new character and the same situation, logged off after 30 mins.  I then logged into Rift beta to try the new classes, and voila the same situation, logged off and done.  Today I decided to make a new GW2 character, same feelings.  What I have discovered is that I have a one player mentality and I have never really played Alts to any degree (WoW being the exception, as I had 4 level 80's in WotLK).
 
 
So why am I quitting GW2?  Well I wouldnt say I am quitting 100%, as right now my plans are to go back for these events that they plan on running and quitting afterwards. The problem I have is knowing my tendency to fully quit once I stop playing. In a sense I can predict GW2 will be done for good as well.  The real reason why I am quitting: is twofold:
  • First I never really liked the concept of the rigid weapon and class system GW2 uses.
  • I am an explorer at heart, and now that I have nothing to work for (that interests me) I am bored
I was really hoping WvW would reignite my PvP passion that I had back in DAoC but sadly it has not, even though I feel it is slightly more realistic in terms of actual siege warfare a part of me really dislikes not knowing who exactly my enemy is, maybe it is rose tinted glasses.  (Caveat warning) this also has me extremely worried for Elder Scrolls Online.  I also love the total removal of the trinity system but do not like the implementation of it in GW2.  I have done every explorable mode dungeon except for Arah and so far it just really feels like a clusterf*** but I know I do not want a return to the rigid class system either.  I also think, regardless how anyone else feels that a dungeon finder is key in longevity.  I do not like spamming LFG in a chat!  I love how the Dynamic Events make the world feel alive but I think the majority of them are too shallow and do not last long enough plus the rewards are borderline asanine.  I would love to see the average DE take at least 20-30 mins and reward random items, instead of karma.  I also do not like how basically there is zero character progression past level 30.  I think GW2 could do with hundreds of skills to work toward.  I am sitting on 217 skill points and since I have aquired all skills so far theres nothing to work forward too. (minus mystic forge items) Which brings me to my last point, the mystic forge is good in theory but bad in practice.  I would like to see a truely random weapon/armor luck system based on unused trait points and excess crafting items.  Instead of having a rigid system that takes 250 of high level items, 50 traits for a specific item.  Basically I am putting hundreds of hours of post level cap trait aquisition and farming of high level crafting materials for ONE ITEM.  Since I am already decked out in full exotics that one item is pointless to me.
 
 
A big part me would like to take a large segment of certain features of all MMO's ive played and combine the best elements.  Its hard to like GW2 knowing TSW has a superior class system.  I also Like the random dynamic loot system of Asherons Call, if for example random exotics could drop from any creature at level 80, I know I would enjoy random farming/killing more.  The same thing with any other MMO, I imagine how great an Asherons Call would be with a GW2 combat system.  But I digress, I like alot of things from alot of MMO's and I am constantly wishing that a certain aspect was like something else while playing the current MMO.
 
Right now I am looking forward to Neverwinter and TESO way too much which also has me down on GW2, maybe the changing landscape of MMO's is the new normal and we arent meant to play for years on end any more.  The good thing about the all this, is knowing the future of MMO's there is always something else to look forward too down the line even if NW and TESO fail as well.
 
I am truely hoping that Neverwinter will fit my bill since I think the Foundry system is really the thing that could keep me playing for great periods of length but like my worries with TESO (the RvR) I have morries there too, as they havnt announced a class that appeals to me (god I hope they have a hybrid melee/magic class like TESO's Dragon Knight)
 
Good luck and sorry if I dissapointed any fans of GW2, it wasnt my intent.  As for anyone who is in the same boat as me, could you recommend a game to pass the time away that has exceptional leveling up opportunities?  Thinking of picking up MoP for WoW to level a Monk until Neverwinter releases.  ( dont mention WarZ, any of the MMOFPS's or old school WoW clones)

Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online

Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.

image

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Comments

  • KarteliKarteli Providence, PAPosts: 2,646Member

    Without any social structure or concrete tools for social interaction and Roleplay, what you found is what others have also found.

     

    GW2 is a very lonely game experience.  Even with friends to play with, they eventually disappear, and guilds don't have any real substance.  There is no bonds to tie you to your character or to other players.  As an MMORPG, GW2 fails, and fails hard.  Regardless of what perversions of MMORPG's that fans might have you believe.

     

    Essentially when you are finished with the solo-player experience, there is little to fall back on.  GW2's version of RvR doesn't hold any real incentive to keep playing either.

     

    I kind of surprised that you saw the removal of the trinity as a good thing.  To me, that just made every class rather bland.  During my AD&D nights, every person at the table was important, which was uplifting to every participant.  In GW2, nobody is important - everyone is just needed to fill a gap, regardless of who they are.  .. We need "you" to help, not because of any quality you have, but because you are a living breathing person like everyone else .. bleech!

    Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
    Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  • PaRoXiTiCPaRoXiTiC Denison, TXPosts: 576Member Uncommon

    Throw in that this game is actually dying and I'm right with you now. Got my Legendary and now I have no reason to log on anymore. Everyday I log on hoping my WvWvW focused guild will be on PvP'ing and nobody is there. I shout in Team chat in every borderland and nobody answers about running groups.

    I circled the entire map in one borderland and I did not see any other MMO'er out there enemy or friend.

    I hate to say it, but as  fanboi since day one this game is fucking dying and it really is starting to bore the hell out of me.

  • grimalgrimal Stamford, CTPosts: 2,873Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Karteli

    Without any social structure or concrete tools for social interaction and Roleplay, what you found is what others have also found.

     

    GW2 is a very lonely game experience.  Even with friends to play with, they eventually disappear, and guilds don't have any real substance.  There is no bonds to tie you to your character or to other players.  As an MMORPG, GW2 fails, and fails hard.  Regardless of what perversions of MMORPG's fan might have you believe.

     

    Essentially when you are finished with the solo-player experience, there is little to fall back on.  GW2's version of RvR doesn't hold any real incentive to keep playing either.

     

    I kind of surprised that you saw the removal of the trinity as a good thing.  To me, that just made every class rather bland.  During my AD&D nights, every person at the table was important, which was uplifting to every participant.  In GW2, nobody is important - everyone is just needed to fill a gap, regardless of who they are.  .. We need "you" to help, not because of any quality you have, but because you are a living breathing person like everyone else .. bleech!

    As much as I like GW2 as a video game (and I do like it), as an MMORPG I think it is absolutely awful.  I don't think ANET are stupid or misinformed people; quite the contrary.  They just have no idea what an MMORPG is.   The game looks, smells, and sounds like one....but it's nothing more than a caricature of one.

    Play the game as you would a single player console game and you'll enjoy it.  That's what I do and I still continue to have fun with it.   But you definitely have to play many alts to keep any  replayability with this one...one character just gets too dull too quick.

  • huihuhuhuhuihuhuhu shawnee, KSPosts: 28Member
    WoW you sure made a Rift in the Secret World called Guild Wars 2...see what i did there lmao
  • ZylaxxZylaxx Erlanger, KYPosts: 2,574Member
    Originally posted by Karteli

    Without any social structure or concrete tools for social interaction and Roleplay, what you found is what others have also found.

     

    GW2 is a very lonely game experience.  Even with friends to play with, they eventually disappear, and guilds don't have any real substance.  There is no bonds to tie you to your character or to other players.  As an MMORPG, GW2 fails, and fails hard.  Regardless of what perversions of MMORPG's fan might have you believe.

     

    Essentially when you are finished with the solo-player experience, there is little to fall back on.  GW2's version of RvR doesn't hold any real incentive to keep playing either.

     

    I kind of surprised that you saw the removal of the trinity as a good thing.  To me, that just made every class rather bland.  During my AD&D nights, every person at the table was important, which was uplifting to every participant.  In GW2, nobody is important - everyone is just needed to fill a gap, regardless of who they are.  .. We need "you" to help, not because of any quality you have, but because you are a living breathing person like everyone else .. bleech!

    Thats the thing, no one in my guild has quit yet.  I am the first and those dudes go at it every night in WvW and are fun to play with but even that isnt enough to keep me playing.  I have totally fallen from PvP and am solidly a 1 proposition MMO player, Explorable PvE is all that I find fun any more.

     

    I still think the removal of the trinity system is the best, as it eliminates any shortages of specific roles (Healers and Tanks).  IMO the only way to make the trinity work is to make Tanks and Healers either so fun to play "for me" (i.e. giving tanks the same damage cause I play DPS for big damage) or to make healers and tanks so mind numblingly boring to play that it puts 95% of the onus of a groups success on the DPS. (i.e. making the most fun to play role also the hardest to master)  And enrage timers is defenitly not the answer.

     

    I played AD&D pen and paer for years and we never played based on roles, it was always a group of friends (usually all what you would consider DPS roles) and we made it work.  I jsut love how removal of the trinity puts all the responsibility on the player and not the group and considering 99% of a gamers life is spent leveling up solo they should know the best way to care for themselves.

    Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online

    Playing: GW2
    Waiting on: TESO
    Next Flop: Planetside 2
    Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.

    image

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,262Member Uncommon

    You hit the major reasons why a lot of people quit including myself. 

     

    It looks like this for me DF:UW>Neverwinter>Teso while playing PS2 to pass the time and droping in to TSW here and there while it grows. 

     

    ot- Geez dude why were so ...rude to us that have said we feel the same about the same things?

     

     

  • MagnetiaMagnetia SydneyPosts: 1,029Member Uncommon
    Forget MMOs. I'm playing Natural Selection 2.

    Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?

  • UnderbridgeUnderbridge Winter Park, FLPosts: 16Member
    I like the game, but it is just that.... a game. It isn't a world and I am looking for a world. The other problem is I just didn't feel special enough. I was just another body doing DPS.
  • grimalgrimal Stamford, CTPosts: 2,873Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by bcbully

    You hit the major reasons why a lot of people quit including myself. 

     

    It looks like this for me DF:UW>Neverwinter>Teso while playing PS2 to pass the time and droping in to TSW here and there while it grows. 

     

    ot- Geez dude why were so ...rude to us that have said we feel the same about the same things?

     

     

    It happens here all the time.  I got reported, flamed, insulted etc. for being open about my feelings for the game.  People get all caught up in the hype like a heroin addict shooting up for the first time in a while. 

    P.S. I don't even know how many people will see this post as so many told me they "blocked" me from their views.  Lol.

  • RemyVorenderRemyVorender Riverside, RIPosts: 3,265Member Uncommon
    For me, it took the removal of the trinity to make me realize how much it's needed in a themepark MMO. Dungeons in GW2 are a fucking mess.

    Played: AA, AC1, AC2, Aion, AO, AoC, CO, CoX, DAoC, DCUO, DN, EVE, EQ1, EQ2,
    ESO, FE, FFXI, FFXIV, FF, GW1, GW2, Istaria, L2, LoTRO, MO, MxO, NW, Rift, RoE,
    Ryzom, SB, SWG, SWTOR, TERA, TSW, WAR, WoW, WURM...

  • aionixaionix Fremont, OHPosts: 292Member
    I think it may be the time for the sandbox to rise.  Personally I stillenjoy GW2, but thats because I'm a casual player nowadays.  What I see happening in MMO's is a shift in market focus.  GW2 may be the last successful themepark MMO, as the industry starts shifting to more sandbox player driven games (the scrapping of EQNext anyone?!).  Just like the fall of console gaming and high graphic linear AAA video games, I believe the themepark MMO is on the way out.
  • ZylaxxZylaxx Erlanger, KYPosts: 2,574Member
    Originally posted by bcbully

    You hit the major reasons why a lot of people quit including myself. 

     

    It looks like this for me DF:UW>Neverwinter>Teso while playing PS2 to pass the time and droping in to TSW here and there while it grows. 

     

    ot- Geez dude why were so ...rude to us that have said we feel the same about the same things?

     

     

    I could never play DF:UW, that sort of game has never interested me in the least.  My all time favorite MMO, Asherons Call had a hardcore PK server called Darktide and I played it for a total of about 3 minutes lol.

     

    As for NW and TESO I am greatly looking forward to them but have serious apprehensions about them as well.  Such as no announced classes I like for NW and endgame of TESO.  (a Foundry system for TESO would be amazing BTW)

    Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online

    Playing: GW2
    Waiting on: TESO
    Next Flop: Planetside 2
    Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.

    image

  • grimalgrimal Stamford, CTPosts: 2,873Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by remyburke
    For me, it took the removal of the trinity to make me realize how much it's needed in a themepark MMO. Dungeons in GW2 are a fucking mess.

    I only did AC story mode once and I am still recovering from the PTSD of it....are they all that bad?  I have been toying with trying one again.

  • ZylaxxZylaxx Erlanger, KYPosts: 2,574Member
    Originally posted by grimal
    Originally posted by remyburke
    For me, it took the removal of the trinity to make me realize how much it's needed in a themepark MMO. Dungeons in GW2 are a fucking mess.

    I only did AC story mode once and I am still recovering from the PTSD of it....are they all that bad?  I have been toying with trying one again.

    Nope msot of them are very easy, you jsut got to pick the right path to do.  Still alot of the encounters are nothing but a rez, release and return zerg strategy but not to the extent that AC was.  CoF is the easiest and can be ran with no deaths on a certain path.

    Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online

    Playing: GW2
    Waiting on: TESO
    Next Flop: Planetside 2
    Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.

    image

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,587Member Uncommon

    I have often considered the idea that I have changed and the grind in the MMO no longer appeals to me. Or should I say, the reward is not worth the effort. Modern MMOs have simply started reducing the grind to get the same reward. This has really reduced the value of the reward to nearly nothing. As I have said before. I still remember the names of the epics I had at 70 in WoW. Not the case at 80 or 85. WoW still had something about it back at level 70. It was lost after that. Other games were great as well. I loved my AO. What made AO magical for me was gone when the went live with their Cash Shop. I also believe that GW2's own potential has been diminished by the Cash Shop. No matter how good it is, it would have been better without it. All these new "features" serve to undermine the value of what we play these games for. I've always beieved you value something more when it's earned. I never thought a successful MMO was one that gave people what they wanted. But rather pushed the player to what what level of effort he was willing to put in regardless of whether he liked it or not.

    Anyway, my point is simply this. Have we changed, or has the genre? Probably both but with a strong bias to the 2nd.

  • grimalgrimal Stamford, CTPosts: 2,873Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Zylaxx
    Originally posted by grimal
    Originally posted by remyburke
    For me, it took the removal of the trinity to make me realize how much it's needed in a themepark MMO. Dungeons in GW2 are a fucking mess.

    I only did AC story mode once and I am still recovering from the PTSD of it....are they all that bad?  I have been toying with trying one again.

    Nope msot of them are very easy, you jsut got to pick the right path to do.  Still alot of the encounters are nothing but a rez, release and return zerg strategy but not to the extent that AC was.  CoF is the easiest and can be ran with no deaths on a certain path.

    Why such a lazy design?  Absolutely the worst thing you could do to the dungeon experience.

  • KarteliKarteli Providence, PAPosts: 2,646Member
    Originally posted by Zylaxx

    I played AD&D pen and paer for years and we never played based on roles, it was always a group of friends (usually all what you would consider DPS roles) and we made it work.  I jsut love how removal of the trinity puts all the responsibility on the player and not the group and considering 99% of a gamers life is spent leveling up solo they should know the best way to care for themselves.

    I guess if the Dungeon Master could tailor the environment to work with that playstyle, then it would be fun.  Although having any and every class heal is a tad silly, since healing should be prayed for, by those who have access to god(s).  Unless every class was a multiclass or hybrid.  But still hero's are hero's and they protect the weak, can everyone really become hero's and still be believable?  Who are they protecting?  If they are not protecting anyone, they are no longer hero's, just ordinary folk.  I understand what you are saying, but I still think roles are important.

    Just for fun, in modern terms, if everyone person going to war was a soldier / medic / surgeon / explosive expert / scout / clergy / linguist / aircraft pilot / squad leader / ammunitions crafter / cival engineer / bomb defuser / cryptographic master / communications specialist / social media propaganda expert, etc .. I'd say that was one hell of an advanced civilization!

     

     

    Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
    Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  • grimalgrimal Stamford, CTPosts: 2,873Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

    I have often considered the idea that I have changed and the grind in the MMO no longer appeals to me. Or should I say, the reward is not worth the effort. Modern MMOs have simply started reducing the grind to get the same reward. This has really reduced the value of the reward to nearly nothing. As I have said before. I still remember the names of the epics I had at 70 in WoW. Not the case at 80 or 85. WoW still had something about it back at level 70. It was lost after that. Other games were great as well. I loved my AO. What made AO magical for me was gone when the went live with their Cash Shop. I also believe that GW2's own potential has been diminished by the Cash Shop. No matter how good it is, it would have been better without it. All these new "features" serve to undermine the value of what we play these games for. I've always beieved you value something more when it's earned. I never thought a successful MMO was one that gave people what they wanted. But rather pushed the player to what what level of effort he was willing to put in regardless of whether he liked it or not.

    Anyway, my point is simply this. Have we changed, or has the genre? Probably both but with a strong bias to the 2nd.

    Well, the genre isn't as new as it was 10+ years ago.  When it first cropped up, we were all so dazzled with the whole thing a lot of the shortcomings were overlooked.  I think that our expectations have evolved at a much higher rate than the design has.  Remember, these games take a long time to make.  So when they start making one, their design is marked in time.  

    I think MMORPG players are extremely critical not only of games, but of themselves. 

     

  • cybertruckercybertrucker Pensacola, FLPosts: 1,119Member

    I keep reading these types of posts, and it makes me glad I'm a casual gamer these days , on the nights I get to play its only for 2 to 3 hours, a few nights might be longer. Which means the game comes at a slower rate. A month and I'm only level 36. The game is amazing minus my first bad dungeon run. My 2nd run went slightly better but I still feel trash mobs need to be to be toned down.

    If your looking for a good game granted it tips the park but the combat is amazing, and th graphics are actually IMHO better than GW2 I would recommend TERA. 

  • grimalgrimal Stamford, CTPosts: 2,873Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by cybertrucker

    I keep reading these types of posts, and it makes me glad I'm a casual gamer these days , on the nights I get to play its only for 2 to 3 hours, a few nights might be longer. Which means the game comes at a slower rate. A month and I'm only level 36. The game is amazing minus my first bad dungeon run. My 2nd run went slightly better but I still feel trash mobs need to be to be toned down.

    If your looking for a good game granted it tips the park but the combat is amazing, and th graphics are actually IMHO better than GW2 I would recommend TERA. 

    I recently reactivated my account to Tera to check it out.  The lower level areas seemed like ghost towns when I logged.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,587Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by grimal
    Originally posted by GeezerGamer

    I have often considered the idea that I have changed and the grind in the MMO no longer appeals to me. Or should I say, the reward is not worth the effort. Modern MMOs have simply started reducing the grind to get the same reward. This has really reduced the value of the reward to nearly nothing. As I have said before. I still remember the names of the epics I had at 70 in WoW. Not the case at 80 or 85. WoW still had something about it back at level 70. It was lost after that. Other games were great as well. I loved my AO. What made AO magical for me was gone when the went live with their Cash Shop. I also believe that GW2's own potential has been diminished by the Cash Shop. No matter how good it is, it would have been better without it. All these new "features" serve to undermine the value of what we play these games for. I've always beieved you value something more when it's earned. I never thought a successful MMO was one that gave people what they wanted. But rather pushed the player to what what level of effort he was willing to put in regardless of whether he liked it or not.

    Anyway, my point is simply this. Have we changed, or has the genre? Probably both but with a strong bias to the 2nd.

    Well, the genre isn't as new as it was 10+ years ago.  When it first cropped up, we were all so dazzled with the whole thing a lot of the shortcomings were overlooked.  I think that our expectations have evolved at a much higher rate than the design has.  Remember, these games take a long time to make.  So when they start making one, their design is marked in time.  

    I think MMORPG players are extremely critical not only of games, but of themselves. 

     

    Can't say you are wrong. Back in the 90's one of my all time favorite video games was Myst. Shortly thereafter, the market was flooded with 1st person puzzle solvers. Where are they now? So, yeah, it's possible this whole genre is dying it's own death. Where were you the 1st time you kissed? What about the 5th? 

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,262Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by cybertrucker

    I keep reading these types of posts, and it makes me glad I'm a casual gamer these days , on the nights I get to play its only for 2 to 3 hours, a few nights might be longer. Which means the game comes at a slower rate. A month and I'm only level 36. The game is amazing minus my first bad dungeon run. My 2nd run went slightly better but I still feel trash mobs need to be to be toned down.

    If your looking for a good game granted it tips the park but the combat is amazing, and th graphics are actually IMHO better than GW2 I would recommend TERA. 

    I almost DL'd it the other night. Then I caught myself lol just waiting for DF:UW which I'm sure will be delayed another month for some reason or other.

  • PivotelitePivotelite Hamilton, ONPosts: 2,167Member

    I remember you making a very nasty insult towards people complaining/hating on GW2 around a week ago...I would have never thought to see this thread from you so soon. I expected it obviously, from all of you rabid defenders, just in another 2 months or so when all hope was lost and there was nothing left to cling to, similar to the SWTOR defenders.

     

    Welcome to the club of people who feel the same way as you Zylaxx, GW2 has minigames to do and solo-tasks like world completion to finish but once you grow bored of that or finish...it really is over, there's no sense of purpose or community in GW2 that makes me want to stay.

     

    Originally posted by bcbully
    Originally posted by cybertrucker

    If your looking for a good game granted it tips the park but the combat is amazing, and th graphics are actually IMHO better than GW2 I would recommend TERA. 

    I almost DL'd it the other night. Then I caught myself lol just waiting for DF:UW which I'm sure will be delayed another month for some reason or other.

     Lol I actually went back to TERA about a week ago and have been enjoying myself surprisingly even after my guild fell apart during the release of GW2 and split everywhere, just decided to join a new guild and prep myself for 3v3 ranked arena most likely coming in December.

    image

  • squalleonahasqualleonaha miss, ONPosts: 211Member

    agree dude,

    after almost 3 month play i havent finished my sotry line yet.

    i got about 20% map unlocked.

    i just got my first exotic weapon from dungeon.

    when i look at people with legendary weapon or 100% map completion, i feel sad for my self but now i'm glad to play it slowly lol.

  • HrimnirHrimnir Qeynos, COPosts: 1,597Member Uncommon

    What i really wish is that so many people like the OP would realize that they are not in fact MMO players and basically stop playing them.  The reason the MMO industry is in the state it is is because of a huge influx of non MMO players playing MMOs and then bitching/pissing/moaning until the developers changed them to be more like single player rpg's.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

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