They need to make consequence around PvP more meaningful

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Comments

  • SereliskSerelisk somewhere, NYMember Posts: 836
    Originally posted by Pilnkplonk
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
    Originally posted by Saxonblade
    Well with the Orbs removed due to hackers which for some reason they could not fix, DAOC had it for 10 years and never these issues, there is little or no reason to WvW. Let me restate that, there is not a main objective. With most of the hardcore PvP guilds gone or dying in NA they need to spruce up the WvW, whether it be a ranking system ala DAOC and WAR, guild perks that give incentive to defend their keep or many of the ideas stated by PP. Funny thing is we had 2 keeps last night taken by the stealth hack which was supposedly fixed, yeah I know SS or it did not happen, if you actually WvW on a consistent basis and not just say you do you would know what I am talking about.

    However a game that revolves around "rewards" is not what they intended to create. I realize that many of you do not like this new design, but maybe it is just time that you just realize that the game perhaps is not for you. Noone is forcing you to play. 

    Lol, reading comprehension (or any comprehension) much?

    Every game has its own rewards, duh. That is the point of games. You play games to get rewarded, if only with "joy in playing". In fact everything you do in life you do to either to get rewarded directly or indirectly (by avoiding punishment). Setting up a system for giving rewards and meting out "punishments" as well as defining what form they take is 90% of what is called "game design" duh.

    Please be civil. Your "no one is forcing you to play" reveals your rudeness, incomprehension and all-out douchebaggery.

    It really doesn't, Plink; I fail to see how he's being hostile.

    In a broad sense, you're right when analyzing his post. Fun is a reward. But his post highlights that the OP is asking for far more than fun. In fact, the OP is asking for developers to restrict players who are losing in WvW from some form of  fun or possibly bigger rewards. It's not enough that their server pride is weakened and they get repair bills from constantly dying to a superior server, or their server doesn't benefit from increased node gathering or magic find or whatever else bonuses good servers can get even outside of WvW. No, they have to have something made completely inaccessible for it to be a successful game type? That's pretty damn anti-fun if you ask me. 

    And you also failed to describe how the poster above you is suffering from any reading comprehension. If the game does not cater to a playstyle you enjoy, because one of ArenaNet's largest philosophies is that fun comes before other artificial rewards like exclusive content or, more powerful items, then why do you continue to play that game? 

    TL;DR: OP is similar to coming into the game asking for some sort of gear treadmill to be put in place in PvE. 

  • SereliskSerelisk somewhere, NYMember Posts: 836
    Originally posted by rogiel
    Originally posted by Serelisk
    I disagree completely.  The current system is based on server pride in order to strengthen the community therein. From what I've witnessed, that has seen a lot of success, though my testimony is mostly heresay. But here, I'm from Fort Aspenwood Alliance in the guild GODS and couldn't be more happy with the coordination between multiple guilds and the recognition of allied strength across the server as a whole. We don't win them all, but we don't give up either.  The system you're attempting to propose would cut off content from 2/3rds of the entire game's playerbase at any one time. I shouldn't have to point out to you everything that's wrong with that.   

    Despite 2/3rds of the population being unable to access that particular peace of content, they still would have enough to do. I loved DAOC for its relic raids and Dark Falls runs. The latter being a dungeon that opened up to the strongest of three realms, still crawled with peeps from the other two factions who had gained access to it before your server. Only when you died in this dungeon you were kicked out. This led to some extremely fun battles inside Darkness fall to sweep it clean from any remaining foes.

    Game design philosophy/elements of DAoC and Fark Fall, then, conflict with the game design philosophy of ArenaNet. 

  • PilnkplonkPilnkplonk zagrebMember Posts: 1,532
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
    Originally posted by Pilnkplonk
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
    Originally posted by Saxonblade
    Well with the Orbs removed due to hackers which for some reason they could not fix, DAOC had it for 10 years and never these issues, there is little or no reason to WvW. Let me restate that, there is not a main objective. With most of the hardcore PvP guilds gone or dying in NA they need to spruce up the WvW, whether it be a ranking system ala DAOC and WAR, guild perks that give incentive to defend their keep or many of the ideas stated by PP. Funny thing is we had 2 keeps last night taken by the stealth hack which was supposedly fixed, yeah I know SS or it did not happen, if you actually WvW on a consistent basis and not just say you do you would know what I am talking about.

    However a game that revolves around "rewards" is not what they intended to create. I realize that many of you do not like this new design, but maybe it is just time that you just realize that the game perhaps is not for you. Noone is forcing you to play. 

    Lol, reading comprehension (or any comprehension) much?

    Every game has its own rewards, duh. That is the point of games. You play games to get rewarded. In fact everything you do in life you do to either get rewarded directly or indirectly (by avoiding punishment). Setting up a system for giving rewards and meting out "punishments" is 90% of what is called "game design" duh.

    Please be civil. Your "no one is forcing you to play" reveals your rudeness, incomprehension and all-out douchebaggery.

    Not everyone has to get any "trophy" inside the game to feel like they are having fun. Sure there are rewards in form of "dopamine" for instance, but those are not the type of rewards that are being refered to.

    The game is not for everyone and instead of wasting their time trying to convince the devs to go against their vision of the game, I suggest that they can simply leave the game. It is a civil and proper advice, in my opinion.

     

    Man, you really are coming off high and mighty. Please, since you're so blessed to have the intimate knowlege of the devs vision of the game (which apparently doesnt include any kind of "rewards" for players /rolleyes and is so stellar and immovable in its perfection that only the most advanced among the mortals should be allowed to play it), will you be so kind to leave us uncouth brutes to our simple joys of discussing an mmo on an internet discussion board named "mmorpg.com"?

    Thank you.

  • evolver1972evolver1972 Port Orchard, WAMember Posts: 1,118
    Originally posted by Pilnkplonk
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Agree with everything you say plink apart from the mounts.

    It should take time to reinforce, that was one of the things warhammer did wrong, it was too easy to get back into combat, especially when bioware took over and introduced the stupid rezzing inside keeps. You need consequences for dieing, it doesn't have to be xp loss or being looted, a gw2 / daoc style very long walk is enough.

    Maybe, but the "higher death penalties work against the zerg" is a logical fallacy I encounter a lot on this board. High death penalties actually favor the zerg - safety in numbers and all. It's simple game theory 101. I know many believe that "punishing" that douchebag who is obviously not doing his job would make him play better, but the actual fact is that he would much more probably just leave.

    What really is a zerg? Why do players join zergs? Because zergs provide safety - safety in terms of rewards and safety in being shielded from punishment in case of dying (someone can revive you, there is a greater chance your force will be stronger than the opponents). In WvW you die mostly through no fault of your own. You simply stumble into an overwhelming force, and that is part of the fun. There is no justice in being severely punished just because you had bad luck. If you decrease punishment, the motivation to join a zerg lessens. It's all about risk vs reward and not the need to "educate players to play better." Severe individual punishment can work in games that are "fair" in individual fights otherwise it's just unfair and frustrating.  I find current WvW costs and punishments for dying right at the very edge of what I can stand before feeling unfairly put-down by a game.  And from all my RvR and PvP experience so far, lower penalties for dying = more daring, more heroic deeds, better player spread across the map and more PvP in general.

    Totally agree with everything you said here and in your first post, Plink.

     

    As for the zerg question, I look at it like this:  Zergs are exactly how warfare was done IRL for most of human history.  It's not really different in this game.  The biggest difference in WvWvW is having someone take command and direct the zerg appropriately.

     

    And, I'd love to see less punishment to allow for those more heroic deeds, especially if they allowed player names in WvWvW.

    image

    You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

    Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

  • TwoThreeFourTwoThreeFour SwedenMember UncommonPosts: 2,155
    Originally posted by Pilnkplonk
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
    Originally posted by Pilnkplonk
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
    Originally posted by Saxonblade
    (...)

    Not everyone has to get any "trophy" inside the game to feel like they are having fun. Sure there are rewards in form of "dopamine" for instance, but those are not the type of rewards that are being refered to.

    The game is not for everyone and instead of wasting their time trying to convince the devs to go against their vision of the game, I suggest that they can simply leave the game. It is a civil and proper advice, in my opinion.

     

    Man, you really are coming off high and mighty. Please, since you're so blessed to have the intimate knowlege of the devs vision of the game (which apparently doesnt include any kind of "rewards" for players /rolleyes and is so stellar and immovable in its perfection that only the most advanced among the mortals should be allowed to play it), will you be so kind to leave us uncouth brutes to our simple joys of discussing an mmo on an internet discussion board named "mmorpg.com"?

    Thank you.

    Only as long as you let me have the right to give my opinion on your opinions.

  • PilnkplonkPilnkplonk zagrebMember Posts: 1,532
    Originally posted by Serelisk
    Originally posted by Pilnkplonk
    Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
    Originally posted by Saxonblade
    Well with the Orbs removed due to hackers which for some reason they could not fix, DAOC had it for 10 years and never these issues, there is little or no reason to WvW. Let me restate that, there is not a main objective. With most of the hardcore PvP guilds gone or dying in NA they need to spruce up the WvW, whether it be a ranking system ala DAOC and WAR, guild perks that give incentive to defend their keep or many of the ideas stated by PP. Funny thing is we had 2 keeps last night taken by the stealth hack which was supposedly fixed, yeah I know SS or it did not happen, if you actually WvW on a consistent basis and not just say you do you would know what I am talking about.

    However a game that revolves around "rewards" is not what they intended to create. I realize that many of you do not like this new design, but maybe it is just time that you just realize that the game perhaps is not for you. Noone is forcing you to play. 

    Lol, reading comprehension (or any comprehension) much?

    Every game has its own rewards, duh. That is the point of games. You play games to get rewarded, if only with "joy in playing". In fact everything you do in life you do to either to get rewarded directly or indirectly (by avoiding punishment). Setting up a system for giving rewards and meting out "punishments" as well as defining what form they take is 90% of what is called "game design" duh.

    Please be civil. Your "no one is forcing you to play" reveals your rudeness, incomprehension and all-out douchebaggery.

    It really doesn't, Plink; I fail to see how he's being hostile.

    In a broad sense, you're right when analyzing his post. Fun is a reward. But his post highlights that the OP is asking for far more than fun. In fact, the OP is asking for developers to restrict players who are losing in WvW from some form of  fun or possibly bigger rewards. It's not enough that their server pride is weakened and they get repair bills from constantly dying to a superior server, or their server doesn't benefit from increased node gathering or magic find or whatever else bonuses good servers can get even outside of WvW. No, they have to have something made completely inaccessible for it to be a successful game type? That's pretty damn anti-fun if you ask me. 

    And you also failed to describe how the poster above you is suffering from any reading comprehension. If the game does not cater to a playstyle you enjoy, because one of ArenaNet's largest philosophies is that fun comes before other artificial rewards like exclusive content or, more powerful items, then why do you continue to play that game? 

    TL;DR: OP is similar to coming into the game asking for some sort of gear treadmill to be put in place in PvE. 

    Of course I enjoy the game, but his claims of utter perfection and "put up or shut up" would probably evoke laughter if not downright bitch-slapping by the devs.

    Again, his reading comprehension is trollish. As in "i haven't read anything but i already know what's being said". No one here, as far as i can see, is advocating some kind of a return to gear ladder days. It is his pure presumption that this is the subject of our discussion. As for " fun comes before other artificial rewards like exclusive content or, more powerful items," of course that is true, but that doesn't exactly come of as "there are no rewards AT ALL" like in CS that he actuall mentioned. Of course GW2 features rewards, duh, jeez yu've got xp and karma and gold and items, both skins and actual stat-wise, you've got titles and map completions etc etc etc. GW2 is full of rewards. You get them at all times, for almost anything you do. Anyone who doesn't see this either hasn't played the game at all or has some serious "general comperhension" problems.

    As for the OP, I quite disagree with his views, but the discussion has gone a bit broader than that. At this point we're discussing on how to tweak the current penalty/reward WvW system to make the game move into a direction which would be generally seen as positive by a majority of players - less zerging, more small groups/individual play, better sense of "server pride", more variety and depth at the strategic level, more motivation for guilds, etc. These are not things that in any way go against ANet's "philosophy" that our friend claims to know so intimately. He just comes off as rude and ignorant and trollish - anyone who comes here and says "everybody agree with me or stfu" is asking for trouble. I have no idea why you're defending him.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordMember CommonPosts: 7,207
    Regardless of rewards or not. In fact I'm quite glad its not gear based pvp, but cosmetic rewards might be nice. The decision to hide names us utterly ridiculous, why did they do it? Some misguided attempt to stop people feeling victimised in purely consensual pvp that is all about group play anyway? It's a weird descision,
  • chryseschryses LondonMember UncommonPosts: 1,453

     

    - The reason why people discuss a game and  how to improve or have ideas for it, is mainly to caring about the game.  So I also find people telling me,'if you don't like it leave'. Pretty rude.  People making suggestions is a good thing.

    Regarding my initial idea about restricting people from accessing content based on WvW PvP.  I was giving an example only.  I am not advocating the increase of materialistic reward either.  I just want to see consequence for RvR PvP.  I think Plink made a good suggestion about being rewarded for holding a keep. 

    I just don't get people having issues with a losing side not having something a winning side can have (resource fields, dungeons, XP whatever).  Pride is built by fighting really hard to get back and win.  The best victories and stories are generated by come backs and under dogs fighting back.

    If everyone can access everything and having everything a winner or loser can have, then we are talking about a care bear vanilla world where fairies fluff pillows and pat everyone to sleep.

    What the hell happened to competiveness and taking the blows when your down and getting back up to fight!?

    and FFS don't tell me to play another game.  I actually like GW2 a lot.

     

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