ALOT of stars need to align for developers to push out something thats not only original but good. It's rare for it to happen because of all the variables that need to be present. There are so many external forces the puhes a product towards the mundane and simple. This would be the case for SWG and the mmo industry as a whole.
But I wouldn't bemoan the devs, they are intelligent, hard-working individuals, and it takes alot of sacrifice to work on AAA games as many of them do...amongst them the same ones that have brought us past gems that we have come to hold dear. It's just that the environment isn't really there for most of their ideas to shine through, but they are the LAST people we should attack.
This is something that I hate about the industry, it seems like respect for the developers is starting to erode, when the bioware founders departed from the industry people seemed so jubilant that the ship has 'sunk'. When this ship was the same one that we rode on to bring us so many good memories and legendary titles.
Had you ever done any drinking with developers, you would already know!
(A: the 'retarded monkey' stage first occurs after about the fourth ounce of ethyl, given a reasonably short time reference)
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Can you name one or two of these conferences where 75% of the presentations were on monetization?
Can you imagine such a meeting ever taking place and not being widely youtubed and link-distributed by bittergamers?
Odds so remote as to approach zero.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I've had occasion over the last year to watch several videos of various comp game/MMO developer conferences, and frankly, what I have seen totally explains the direction this genre has been going.
What did the "developers" get excited about? Game systems? Production tools? Talking about building a game for long term success?
No.
About 75% of the presentations or more were all about "monetizing" the games successfully and how to structure things to get the maximum amount of sales through in-game cash shops. And even designing most of the aspects the game with that specifically in mind.
It was and is clear, that many/most of the "mainstream" game developers and their "peer community" do not care about making quality games or want the customer (ya, him) to have an enjoyable experience.
It was mostly about the money and how to get people to spend more. Not, have more fun.
Frankly, the quality of the game and the satisfaction of the customer seemed very much a secondary concern at those conferences.
That being the case, it is not a surprise that the MMO genre has been in the toliet for years, and frankly, the way these kind of people have been running things, that is where it belongs.
Can you name one or two of these conferences where 75% of the presentations were on monetization?
Originally posted by dreamsofwar I think developers get called artists sometimes, and games can be seen as art. Unfortunately I don't think it ever fully can be considered art and the developers artists. Artists tend to do what they do because they feel they have something to say or it is a form of expression and they want to create something for the enjoyment of others. Unless I am ignorant concerning art though, throughout history profit has rarely been the motivation for creating a work of art. In the gaming industry it is a business. The need to generate the highest profit possible comes before creating that one master piece that a small but loyal base of players can enjoy. So they have to cater to the masses. They have to make tough decisions to ensure players don't get left behind. Hardcore elements get taken out and things get made easier. That is the reality of this business and until a company comes along and makes a game without massive profits in mind I think this trend will continue.
Just like the music before it became a business :P
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
I credit many of the failures to project management by non-gamer corporate types. It's fairly obvious that some games make it to release without critical evaluation of game design by play testing, or the play testing evaluation which does happen is ignored.
Gameplay has to be treated as a priority. I feel that too often it is not.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
Funny thing is, most people making these comments has NO CLUE the work it takes to design a game and make it run smoothly. A lot of the 'hate' can often be taken up with the publishers or the marketting when it comes to F2P where they make plenty of poor decisions and end up making programs have to 'add in' for these details. Publishers though do play a big part in helping to destroy the developers ideas and change them the way they like or simply cut off the ability for them to finish them.
Don't get me wrong, developers can make poor choices, but often times you got to understand making a game isn't as easy as you think. If you think otherwise, hit up some C++ and come back to me. I'l bet most people out there won't even be able to easily comprehend and do the very easy 'basics' of it, and that stuff is not remotely close to the compelxity of game design and just how much coding it takes to make the simplest game component working (which btw, considering its often times linked to something 'saved' on your character it involves database work as well which means even MORE components to worry about) specially if your doing it for PC where theres such a wide spectrum of hardware and software solutions running it its near impossible to know every problem that can occur.
This question comes up sometimes when you notice a deep disconnection between devs and players of a game. You cant allways (and should not) do what players want but you need to respect them and their standing about a game.
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
Funny thing is, most people making these comments has NO CLUE the work it takes to design a game and make it run smoothly. A lot of the 'hate' can often be taken up with the publishers or the marketting when it comes to F2P where they make plenty of poor decisions and end up making programs have to 'add in' for these details. Publishers though do play a big part in helping to destroy the developers ideas and change them the way they like or simply cut off the ability for them to finish them.
Don't get me wrong, developers can make poor choices, but often times you got to understand making a game isn't as easy as you think. If you think otherwise, hit up some C++ and come back to me. I'l bet most people out there won't even be able to easily comprehend and do the very easy 'basics' of it, and that stuff is not remotely close to the compelxity of game design and just how much coding it takes to make the simplest game component working (which btw, considering its often times linked to something 'saved' on your character it involves database work as well which means even MORE components to worry about) specially if your doing it for PC where theres such a wide spectrum of hardware and software solutions running it its near impossible to know every problem that can occur.
This argument is... oh well.
Listen, I don't have a driving licence and I don't know crap about mechanics and I don't need one to know when Fernando Alonso is running a good race or not. I don't play tennis, but I can tell when Federer is doing good or not. I hardly started playing drums and I still got tons to learn but I know when somebody is a good drummer or a poor one. I can't paint but I know why I like Kokoshcka and not Miro. I could go on for ages with examples.
Yes, I can't make games. So? I do play them, and I know when a game sucks. I know when the companies just have no clue about what gamers are asking for, I know when they don't listen to the communities, and I know when a game is just a cash-grab that will start merging servers in a couple of months.
People know so little about software development it is interesting to read about it sometimes. Take Windows for example: People were wondering if Microsoft ever test their product at all. Turns out no less than half of their budget goes to testing. But then again any professional knows testing is not enough...
Anyway, I have tremendous respect for the developers who make these games about movies and manage to launch often a fairly decent product on dead-line and, I imagine, on budget. That takes skill and management.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
My industry experience is that games take so damn long to complete, that no matter how passionate you are initially, by the time it gets close to release, you're just burned out and want to get it out the door. Past caring about whether it's perfect or not.
*prepaired to type a long rebuttal on this thread*
*then glanced at EA*
NVM
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
the only time i ever think this is when i think to "back then".. and how we actually had more than what we do today.
And then my thought process is immediately interrupted by an aggravating image.. it kinda looks something like this
Hype > Lose subs > F2P
Which in tern takes me down an angry path of something like.. "It's plain as a cloudless day that the person in charge here just outright doesn't care."
then i go real dark and start thinking.. "well fiddle sticks, its in everyone else's face too and no one else seems to care either. they just want to talk about numbers and subscriptions and how devs need money and how hard it is to make games."
Alas all im left with is a totally dead genre. Yes its dead. its so unbelievably post mortem its appaling. The only choices you're getting in todays MMORPG is you either are or you are not going to play. Thats it.
Once inside its a parallel universe of the one you just left. less appealing than the last with more of a hamster wheel and less carrot on a stick.
this constant bombardment of overwhelming greed and horrible business ethics displayed in damn near every mmorpg released for almost the last decade.
People SHOULD be asking for more damnit. You should want more from these "worlds."
Alas all im left with is a totally dead genre. Yes its dead. its so unbelievably post mortem its appaling. The only choices you're getting in todays MMORPG is you either are or you are not going to play. Thats it.
Oddly, after only a very few days away from message boards, the heartbeat restarts.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I worked in QA for a year and saw first hand what sort of effort it takes to make a AAA game.
I think that many games are utter trash but I will never rag on the devs that give up large portions of there lives just to try and create something that they can be proud of.
Sure there are some that are in it for the money and nothing else but generally you can spot those games a mile away.
Making a game is not glamorous at all, it is a long and very gruelling process and involves many people more often than not, not everyone working on a game will have the same ideas of what makes a good game.
You also now have real pressure from publishers and people funding the game.
People are allowed to voice concerns though even if they have no experience of developing a game but to suggest that all devs are clueless is overly harsh.
If anyone thinks it's easy to make a game then go and try it, become halfway decent at 3d modeling, animation and C++. I have tried many times to learn C++ and I am fully aware I have none of the skills needed it would take to make a game. The amount of bugs that crop up in basic programs I wrote was mind boggling I can't even imagine writing an entire game.
I've had occasion over the last year to watch several videos of various comp game/MMO developer conferences, and frankly, what I have seen totally explains the direction this genre has been going.
What did the "developers" get excited about? Game systems? Production tools? Talking about building a game for long term success?
No.
About 75% of the presentations or more were all about "monetizing" the games successfully and how to structure things to get the maximum amount of sales through in-game cash shops. And even designing most of the aspects the game with that specifically in mind.
Can you name one or two of these conferences where 75% of the presentations were on monetization?
I'll see if I can find the links for the videos.
No need to dig for links. Just the names of the conferences would be great.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
If we're going to use taxonomy metaphors and developers are monkeys then how would we classify armchair quarterbacks?
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Funny thing is, most people making these comments has NO CLUE the work it takes to design a game and make it run smoothly. A lot of the 'hate' can often be taken up with the publishers or the marketting when it comes to F2P where they make plenty of poor decisions and end up making programs have to 'add in' for these details. Publishers though do play a big part in helping to destroy the developers ideas and change them the way they like or simply cut off the ability for them to finish them.
Don't get me wrong, developers can make poor choices, but often times you got to understand making a game isn't as easy as you think. If you think otherwise, hit up some C++ and come back to me. I'l bet most people out there won't even be able to easily comprehend and do the very easy 'basics' of it, and that stuff is not remotely close to the compelxity of game design and just how much coding it takes to make the simplest game component working (which btw, considering its often times linked to something 'saved' on your character it involves database work as well which means even MORE components to worry about) specially if your doing it for PC where theres such a wide spectrum of hardware and software solutions running it its near impossible to know every problem that can occur.
The "issues" you describe are one of the reasons why we have professional developers, and to solve issues like that are part of the daily work.
The fact that development is no easy work is not a valid excuse for making a bad job.
If we're going to use taxonomy metaphors and developers are monkeys then how would we classify armchair quarterbacks?
+1
If games were easy to make, all games would be good. If games were cheap and easy to make, you could make one and put your own money where you mouth is (directed at the OP)
Also OP...hindsight is 20/20. Easy to say after the fact that a past decision was stupid...at the time it might have seemed a realistic and good idea.
The fact that development is no easy work is not a valid excuse for making a bad job.
Unfortunately, development is far less easy than many other pursuits.
There just aren't any jobs easier than amateur art critic. The only qualification is hubris, and there's a nearly unlimited supply of that in gamerdom. If only it were crude oil...what energy crisis?
Maybe we can work something out, shoveling the abundant local buffalo dung into piles to burn, and drying it with our copious supplies of free hot air...hmm.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Blizzard of today is still living on the memories and hard work of Blizzard circa 2000. Bad example. No regular gaming company would still exist after Diablo 3 or a Kung Fu Panda Expansion. The days of Blizzard getting a free pass need to disappear already.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
Nope, I do not. Developers usually believe in what they are doing and what they wish to accomplish. Forum fanatics agree only on general topics like "x game sucks" insert random game for x. Meanwhile, if you ask people why a game sucks, they all have different reasons, so they agree to hate in unison. If all of you "fans" designed a game, it would go the same as all the others. One guy would say sandbox, the other would say themepark. One would say rp needs swimming, the other would say housing. One person would say 3d space combat, the other would say rail combat. flying mounts, no flying mounts, chat bubbles no chat bubbles and so on and so on. Fans would not agree on crap, and the game would blow.
You run into this with every topic, of every nature. In macro economics, everyone agrees our system sucks, but as soon as we where asked to write up our own economic system our entire class went from unison in attacking America's system to each others ideas.
It's easy to agree that something sucks, but try getting agreement on fixes and you will find yourself in the same boat as every creator in history.
Comments
ALOT of stars need to align for developers to push out something thats not only original but good. It's rare for it to happen because of all the variables that need to be present. There are so many external forces the puhes a product towards the mundane and simple. This would be the case for SWG and the mmo industry as a whole.
But I wouldn't bemoan the devs, they are intelligent, hard-working individuals, and it takes alot of sacrifice to work on AAA games as many of them do...amongst them the same ones that have brought us past gems that we have come to hold dear. It's just that the environment isn't really there for most of their ideas to shine through, but they are the LAST people we should attack.
This is something that I hate about the industry, it seems like respect for the developers is starting to erode, when the bioware founders departed from the industry people seemed so jubilant that the ship has 'sunk'. When this ship was the same one that we rode on to bring us so many good memories and legendary titles.
Had you ever done any drinking with developers, you would already know!
(A: the 'retarded monkey' stage first occurs after about the fourth ounce of ethyl, given a reasonably short time reference)
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Can you imagine such a meeting ever taking place and not being widely youtubed and link-distributed by bittergamers?
Odds so remote as to approach zero.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I'll see if I can find the links for the videos.
Just like the music before it became a business :P
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
The following is from a person who has an intellectual disability.
What's the big deal about using the word "retard"?
and also
The following is a guest post in the form of an open letter from Special Olympics athlete and global messenger John Franklin Stephens to Ann Coulter after this tweet during last night’s Presidential debate.
Let's be more mindful, please?
Over and out.
I credit many of the failures to project management by non-gamer corporate types. It's fairly obvious that some games make it to release without critical evaluation of game design by play testing, or the play testing evaluation which does happen is ignored.
Gameplay has to be treated as a priority. I feel that too often it is not.
Funny thing is, most people making these comments has NO CLUE the work it takes to design a game and make it run smoothly. A lot of the 'hate' can often be taken up with the publishers or the marketting when it comes to F2P where they make plenty of poor decisions and end up making programs have to 'add in' for these details. Publishers though do play a big part in helping to destroy the developers ideas and change them the way they like or simply cut off the ability for them to finish them.
Don't get me wrong, developers can make poor choices, but often times you got to understand making a game isn't as easy as you think. If you think otherwise, hit up some C++ and come back to me. I'l bet most people out there won't even be able to easily comprehend and do the very easy 'basics' of it, and that stuff is not remotely close to the compelxity of game design and just how much coding it takes to make the simplest game component working (which btw, considering its often times linked to something 'saved' on your character it involves database work as well which means even MORE components to worry about) specially if your doing it for PC where theres such a wide spectrum of hardware and software solutions running it its near impossible to know every problem that can occur.
This question comes up sometimes when you notice a deep disconnection between devs and players of a game.
You cant allways (and should not) do what players want but you need to respect them and their standing about a game.
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
Johnny Cash - The Man Comes Around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0x2iwK0BKM
This argument is... oh well.
Listen, I don't have a driving licence and I don't know crap about mechanics and I don't need one to know when Fernando Alonso is running a good race or not. I don't play tennis, but I can tell when Federer is doing good or not. I hardly started playing drums and I still got tons to learn but I know when somebody is a good drummer or a poor one. I can't paint but I know why I like Kokoshcka and not Miro. I could go on for ages with examples.
Yes, I can't make games. So? I do play them, and I know when a game sucks. I know when the companies just have no clue about what gamers are asking for, I know when they don't listen to the communities, and I know when a game is just a cash-grab that will start merging servers in a couple of months.
People know so little about software development it is interesting to read about it sometimes. Take Windows for example: People were wondering if Microsoft ever test their product at all. Turns out no less than half of their budget goes to testing. But then again any professional knows testing is not enough...
Anyway, I have tremendous respect for the developers who make these games about movies and manage to launch often a fairly decent product on dead-line and, I imagine, on budget. That takes skill and management.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I'm a programmer.
MMO projects are usually far above average clean, especially considering the extreme size and complexity.
My industry experience is that games take so damn long to complete, that no matter how passionate you are initially, by the time it gets close to release, you're just burned out and want to get it out the door. Past caring about whether it's perfect or not.
*prepaired to type a long rebuttal on this thread*
*then glanced at EA*
NVM
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
the only time i ever think this is when i think to "back then".. and how we actually had more than what we do today.
And then my thought process is immediately interrupted by an aggravating image.. it kinda looks something like this
Hype > Lose subs > F2P
Which in tern takes me down an angry path of something like.. "It's plain as a cloudless day that the person in charge here just outright doesn't care."
then i go real dark and start thinking.. "well fiddle sticks, its in everyone else's face too and no one else seems to care either. they just want to talk about numbers and subscriptions and how devs need money and how hard it is to make games."
Alas all im left with is a totally dead genre. Yes its dead. its so unbelievably post mortem its appaling. The only choices you're getting in todays MMORPG is you either are or you are not going to play. Thats it.
Once inside its a parallel universe of the one you just left. less appealing than the last with more of a hamster wheel and less carrot on a stick.
this constant bombardment of overwhelming greed and horrible business ethics displayed in damn near every mmorpg released for almost the last decade.
People SHOULD be asking for more damnit. You should want more from these "worlds."
Oddly, after only a very few days away from message boards, the heartbeat restarts.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Wow, talk about a clear case of entitlement complex taken to a new and even more stupid low.
Everyone has an opinion I know, but some of them stink so bad they should never be allowed to see the light of day.
I don't know how anyone could consider themselves a fan of gaming with as sickening an attitude as the one displayed by this thread.
Kill it with fire!
I worked in QA for a year and saw first hand what sort of effort it takes to make a AAA game.
I think that many games are utter trash but I will never rag on the devs that give up large portions of there lives just to try and create something that they can be proud of.
Sure there are some that are in it for the money and nothing else but generally you can spot those games a mile away.
Making a game is not glamorous at all, it is a long and very gruelling process and involves many people more often than not, not everyone working on a game will have the same ideas of what makes a good game.
You also now have real pressure from publishers and people funding the game.
People are allowed to voice concerns though even if they have no experience of developing a game but to suggest that all devs are clueless is overly harsh.
If anyone thinks it's easy to make a game then go and try it, become halfway decent at 3d modeling, animation and C++. I have tried many times to learn C++ and I am fully aware I have none of the skills needed it would take to make a game. The amount of bugs that crop up in basic programs I wrote was mind boggling I can't even imagine writing an entire game.
No need to dig for links. Just the names of the conferences would be great.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
If we're going to use taxonomy metaphors and developers are monkeys then how would we classify armchair quarterbacks?
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
The "issues" you describe are one of the reasons why we have professional developers, and to solve issues like that are part of the daily work.
The fact that development is no easy work is not a valid excuse for making a bad job.
+1
If games were easy to make, all games would be good. If games were cheap and easy to make, you could make one and put your own money where you mouth is (directed at the OP)
Also OP...hindsight is 20/20. Easy to say after the fact that a past decision was stupid...at the time it might have seemed a realistic and good idea.
Unfortunately, development is far less easy than many other pursuits.
There just aren't any jobs easier than amateur art critic. The only qualification is hubris, and there's a nearly unlimited supply of that in gamerdom. If only it were crude oil...what energy crisis?
Maybe we can work something out, shoveling the abundant local buffalo dung into piles to burn, and drying it with our copious supplies of free hot air...hmm.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
Nope, I do not. Developers usually believe in what they are doing and what they wish to accomplish. Forum fanatics agree only on general topics like "x game sucks" insert random game for x. Meanwhile, if you ask people why a game sucks, they all have different reasons, so they agree to hate in unison. If all of you "fans" designed a game, it would go the same as all the others. One guy would say sandbox, the other would say themepark. One would say rp needs swimming, the other would say housing. One person would say 3d space combat, the other would say rail combat. flying mounts, no flying mounts, chat bubbles no chat bubbles and so on and so on. Fans would not agree on crap, and the game would blow.
You run into this with every topic, of every nature. In macro economics, everyone agrees our system sucks, but as soon as we where asked to write up our own economic system our entire class went from unison in attacking America's system to each others ideas.
It's easy to agree that something sucks, but try getting agreement on fixes and you will find yourself in the same boat as every creator in history.