Good post altogether, however can you not admit that some people, lets call them asshats, will abuse such a system and cause the problems described as FFAPVP is for cowards and FFAPVP is a gankfest.
I don't think anyone is saying thats ALL they are. But they are saying that sometimes you join a game like this a year after launch, you leave the start town as a lvl 1 character with a wooden stick and some gimp in a gimpsuit and powersword of flashy fire cuts you down, and if that isnt enough, he stays there to do it again next time you leave.
Now I am not saying I agree with this point of view but I firmly beleive that there is nothing wrong with ffapvp, its that some ppl hugely abuse the system and those people are cowards and they do turn portions of these games into gankfests. The arguement is valid except its an arguement against asshats and not against ffapvp.
If you continue to make sweeping statements like you know what everyone everywhere thinks about a certain topic then I am going to shout at you. It easy to type 'I think this is the worst game ever' Rather than the 'This is the worst game ever'
FFA PVP is a robbery and homicide simulator, no wonder that people think its for sociopaths.
Since the beginning of gaming in general, we have been beating the enemy and taking their spoils. Might as well call us ALL sociopaths and crook potentials.
At the beginning of gaming you didn't do it to player controlled characters.
There is a difference between PVE and PVP exactly because you -know- they are actually real people.
Its easy to disassociate yourself from killing an AI-controlled opponent that was purposefully put there by the game designer to be killed. Games then usually manufacture some motivation to kill that NPC, like "he killed the other NPCs wife" or "its the devil".
You kill it, feel righteous and move on.
With player controlled characters its different. The game designers didn't put them there for you to kill. The game designers gave you no motivation for you to kill them.
If you kill them, its of your own motivation, and you know they are essentially other people (because thats what your avatar actually is in a game, your representation).
I'm not calling people sociopaths or crook potentials, i said its because the game-design and player-behavior doesn't behave as it should (i.e. what people EXPECT) its equated to it.
We can have a debate on if this perception is valid, but it is the perception, and its caused by behavior that would irl be considered sociopathic.
I love these assanine arguments. No my opinion is more valid then yours. Give the consumer a choice and let them decide or you the developer choose one niche over another. It is really that simple.
I've played ffa pvp games, started mmos with UO in 98 and it wasn't that bad. I'll fully admit that. It had it's pros and cons. But now that I have a choice I will never choose to be someone else's unwilling content again. I like my pve and my pvp I just don't like them together.
The problem with FFA PVP isn't that its not a fair fight or that its a gankfest.
The problem is that in (popular) FFA PVP the motivation to PVP is 90% loot, 9% for the lulz and 1% for other reasons.
FFA PVP is a robbery with homicide simulator, no wonder that people think its for sociopaths.
FFA PVP simulations don't behave like real life does in areas where they should, so people recoil from them.
Screw loot :P I played pvp games (faction based though) where one would get stats (free to allocate) for kills. Although it did create an imbalance between someone with 200k kills and someone with just 15, but nothing 2 equally geared people with 15 kills couldn't handle. PvP should be about kills and a little objectives, not mostly objectives. (and I'm rambling again...)
There was risk involved though, you could lose stuff from your inventory or equipped ones (latter had a low chance, but a chance nontheless), except when using the cash shop...
And in regard to my last post: I played this game purely for the pvp, so no comments on my contradicting myself.
Originally posted by Drakynn This is exactly what a sociopathic,cowardly,ganking griefer would say to defend their non successful,bad,pvp only games of limited appeal!!! :-0
FFA PVP is a robbery and homicide simulator, no wonder that people think its for sociopaths.
Since the beginning of gaming in general, we have been beating the enemy and taking their spoils. Might as well call us ALL sociopaths and crook potentials.
I've been saying that for a long time. Apparently it's only being a "sociopath" when the other guy does it.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
It's weird I had no interest in a permadeath style game until I played DayZ.
From reading these forums I had always assumed that these games were filled with idiots who just spawn killed new players over and over, leaving the rest of the game a barren wasteland.
In DayZ it's about surviving and collecting nice loot, but when you die you will lose everything you have collected. At first this put me off but then I learned more about the game and I knew where I had a chance of finding decent equipment and I was off and away forgetting about what I had just lost and playing happily again.
I have never been spawn killed in that game, my characters have survived for over 24 hours multiple times and I have spent time watching other players in game and avoiding them easily.
There are assholes in it that will kill me for no reason, it's happened multiple times, but in WoW I got spawn camped, someone in my group wiped us over and over, ninja'd loot, stole from the guild bank. Assholes are everywhere.
I still don't understand why people that don't like permadeath or pvp games even bother commenting on them, I don't like LOTRO and I never go to there website or forums or any fan forum to tell them to change the game.
If a developer wants to take a risk and make a niche game then for goodness sake let them! We need more developers making niche games otherwise we are just going to be surrounded by Call Of Duty 16, Assassins Creed 12, Madden 2050 and World Of Warcraft 30th anniversary edition.
Not everyone is out to make as much money as possible, I'd rather play a quality game with 5 people than a mediocre one with 100,000. Some devs are happy earning a wage to live on and being able to make games they would like to play, that is the dream, getting paid to do what you love! Why would you trade that for just making as much money as possibly but being morally bankrupt?
I am all about the OW-PVP-FFA with full loot sandbox but it has to be done right. The game has to be built for it from the ground up and we've yet to really see one other than Darkfall and Aventurine's amateurness shined through on their first go. Maybe this time around DF:UW will turn some heads but to be honest I'm not sure they have fully realized the concept. If only they could pick my brain they'd be in business. hahaha. I'm sure we all feel that way though
Oh yeah probs to EVE and UO, was talking more on new age fantasy side of things but they held it down.
There are no good arguments for FFA PvP games not existing. There are only good arguments for why a particular player won't play a FFA PvP game. It's really up to the developers what they do with the information.
The guys who write Darkfall have no intention of writing a game that doesn't revolve around FFA PvP, no matter how many people complain about it. The guys who write The War Z are considering things other than FFA PvP because many players made it clear that they wouldn't play the game if it kept the FFA PvP aspects of the game. The Darkfall vision includes FFA PvP, while The War Z's vision isn't set on FFA PvP as part of the game...something else is the driving factor. Both developers are doing the right thing, which is write the games based on their vision for the games.
** edit ** However, whining about people whining about FFA PvP is still whining.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Been screamed at by a 12 on vent for not following some instructions off of the internet to the letter Had a ticking off from a guild master for bring 10 minutes late, lime they're my second origin boss Been harassed to grind harder by said second boss because we need to progress to the next tier Seen people cry and leave because they didn't get any shinnies Had to deal with guild splitting in two because one guild leaders wife was having relations with another senior guild member Gone on holiday for two weeks and had half the guild turn against me for letting the side down. Had a guys kid brother rock up and immediately get promoted to main tank and snuffle all the loot. Have a guild leader do a runner with all the money in the bank because a couple of players weren't sensitive enough to her needs Had to deal with a sex pest who kept pestering female guild members
All of which have happened to me in pve guilds on several occasions (all of them happend more than once) You get more messed up people in hardcore pve guilds than you ever get in pvp guilds.
Pvpers play to escape reality for a while with a bit of mindless "violence" Hardcore pveers play to replace reality.
In the end it doesn't matter, most people don't like the idea of FFA PVP in the first place. The fact that you resort to calling people butthurt doesn't exactly help your argument either. FFA PVP absolutely attracts a lot of griefers and people I'd never want to play the same game with.
In the end it doesn't matter, most people don't like the idea of FFA PVP in the first place. The fact that you resort to calling people butthurt doesn't exactly help your argument either. FFA PVP absolutely attracts a lot of griefers and people I'd never want to play the same game with.
Whenever I read people saying things like this, I wonder what I'm doing so badly wrong in EVE. I've been subbed for over 6 years, 90% of which was in the "FFA" zone of 0.0 space. Most of the people there have been reasonably intelligent, nice and sociable.
My observation is that the unpleasant types seem to cluster in the "Limited PvP" zone of Empire space. One is tempted to speculate that the jerks live in the less rigorous conditions there because surviving in 0.0 takes a lot of teamwork and trust, plus the insight and patience required to be willing to put one's ego and short-term gain to the side in order for one's group to thrive (to the overall benefit of each member).
In short, if you're worried about dealing with jerks, play a game that's too harsh for them to survive in.
See above. which is a preposterous claim to say the least.
I fail to understand what your final quip was about. Do you disagree most of the engagements are ganks or what?
Actually the "which is a preposterous claim to say the least." was an edit error on my part. I did not mean to leave that in when editing out the rest. My apologies for the confusion there.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
its an intresting discussion to say the least. The biggest problem is perception. There are enough players ganking and griefing to cause this. People will have a perception that only sociopathics play this that get off on other peoples misery are justified when in this example: "Oh look a lvl 5 noob let's get him!" when your lvl 50 says it all. Im sure many players who take up the challenge to play these games hope that the general player base will leave them alone (except the same lvl peeps) until they can be an honorable challenge. Unfortunately this is rarely the case. There are many players who dont do this, but unfortunately there are enough that cause the perception to continue.
In SWTOR I went to alderaan to collect some datacrons and ran into lv 30's I didnt attack them. Why? because im honorable enough to the gamer community not to do this...unless they are stupid to attack me.
If there were more safeguards in place like Eve somewhat has then it wouldnt be as much an issue. You go into low or null sec you know what your getting into. Maybe.
All my opinions are just that..opinions. If you like my opinions..coolness.If you dont like my opinion....I really dont care. Playing: ESO, WOT, Smite, and Marvel Heroes
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by Malcanis Originally posted by FrodoFraginsYou didn't really counter any of the "arguments". In the end it doesn't matter, most people don't like the idea of FFA PVP in the first place. The fact that you resort to calling people butthurt doesn't exactly help your argument either. FFA PVP absolutely attracts a lot of griefers and people I'd never want to play the same game with.
Whenever I read people saying things like this, I wonder what I'm doing so badly wrong in EVE. I've been subbed for over 6 years, 90% of which was in the "FFA" zone of 0.0 space. Most of the people there have been reasonably intelligent, nice and sociable.
My observation is that the unpleasant types seem to cluster in the "Limited PvP" zone of Empire space. One is tempted to speculate that the jerks live in the less rigorous conditions there because surviving in 0.0 takes a lot of teamwork and trust, plus the insight and patience required to be willing to put one's ego and short-term gain to the side in order for one's group to thrive (to the overall benefit of each member).
In short, if you're worried about dealing with jerks, play a game that's too harsh for them to survive in.
Eve has more than PvP for the sake of PvP going for it. The point of the game is to build something and the developers put systems in place to make this happen. The opposite of this that comes to mind for me is The War Z and the Day Z Arma II mod. The point very quickly becomes killing other players for the sake of killing other players. It's not that much different than OW PvP in theme park games. Players aren't building anything and they aren't investing anything into the game, so the games don't offer enough to keep players, and then they complain about the obvious problem...PvP.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The foul-mouthed little jerks that play FPS on consoles are disturbingly similar to PVP players.
The PVP community has an incredibly bad reputation and has lost all the respect of PVE players, PVE players turned against their playstyle and there's nothing that will change that.
The PVP gameplay tends to be ridiculous, instead of cooperating and strategy it's one big gankfest showing off their e-peen.
I don't play MMO to compete, I play to cooperate.
The age group of PVP players often includes little children who get off on ganking. They are not trustworthy, they're scum that shouldn't be allowed online.
If a game doesn't have PVE servers I'm not touching it. I stay away from PVP players, they're a huge turnoff.
The problem with FFA PVP isn't that its not a fair fight or that its a gankfest.
The problem is that in (popular) FFA PVP the motivation to PVP is 90% loot, 9% for the lulz and 1% for other reasons.
FFA PVP is a robbery with homicide simulator, no wonder that people think its for sociopaths.
FFA PVP simulations don't behave like real life does in areas where they should, so people recoil from them.
Ok.. first of all you contradict yourself. FFA PvP is 90% for loot, and FFA PvP dont behave like real life. What do you think most of the time is pvp(war, murder, robbery etc.) in real live? It is about money.
But the even more important part is, and should be 100% clear to start with, is, that MMORPGS are not real live, they are fantasy, and should be fantasy.. isnt it the first reason to play it?
And yes.. the economic part of ffa pvp is huge and one of the driving parts of that game. It is not just about the fight, it is about targets, about consequences for a fight.
And by the way about robbery simulators.. i really enjoyed the "i stole a million dollar" games.
Another sidenote. i like those games, and it is not even about the pvp. It is about the meta game(which of course involves pvp), about the working ingame economy(mostly in games with loot and item degration). Where to earn money, be it with pvp, or crafting or gathering resources, is more challenging(because you have to adopt to the ffa pvp environment), and your income/advantage/reward is much higher.
And more often than not i play some kind of crafter/trader/resource gatherer.. but the truth is, that i enjoy this only in ffa pvp games with full loot(or kind of like Eve). Of course i like more or less all kind of pvp, too.
So.. there are a lot of reason why FFA pvp with loot is just compeletly different than any other pvp mmo.
And about the fair fight. For that i rather play RTS or FPS games, because MMORPGS suck anyways in that department.. at least from my experience, and in my humble opinion. But FFA pvp with full loot, with meta game, and the economy play is just available in MMORPGs, because you need a lot of players and a huge world for that.. you cant do that in a usual multiplayer game with 2-64 players.
It seems to me that whenever a game is being made that does not feature a 100% safe world wherein PVE is the main focus, the woodwork comes alive with infuriated gamers. Some of them seems to be deeply hurt by the fact that the game in question is not catering to their particular tastes, others just want to vent some frustration about FFA PVP and PVPers in general, and yet others seem to want to teach the devs how to earn more money by adapting to the mainstream market instead of following their own vision.
The same old arguments always return, however, and it's fascinating to see how they're recycled despite being so shallow and baseless. Some of them are based only on prejudices, but are often touted as fact anyway. Most of them are extremely stupid and also insulting.
Let me list my favorites (in no particular order):
"People who play FFA PVP games are sociopaths"
This is a very common misconception, based on a failure to distinguish the difference between a virtual world and the real world. People who think every FFA PVPer is acting out his irl self in the game are beyond delusional; if this argument was valid, you could also claim that PVE players enjoy slaughtering endless amounts of innocent boars and spiders irl, or that someone playing the market in WoW is a shrewd capitalist irl - or simply that so-called carebears are all spineless cowards irl.
I think it's not only stupid but utterly insulting to imply that a whole subset of the MMO community consists of sociopaths, just because they happen to enjoy a different style of games than you.
"People who play FFA PVP games are cowards"
This argument is related the preceeding one, but while the sociopath angle comes from hobby psychologists spouting armchair diagnoses, this one is the result of a more moralist view. Some people seem to be under the illusion that PVP should be somehow "fair" and "balanced", and that anyone who has learned to use tactics, terrain, numbers, abilities, experience or anything else to their advantage, is a coward who are afraid of a "fair" fight.
Those who use the "coward" argument should just stick to their MOBAS, BGs or WOW duelling.
"FFA PVP games are nothing but gankfests"
This is my personal favorite. Not only does it reek of hurting butts, it also illustrates some people's total lack of understanding of how FFA PVP works. What the hell does "gankfest" even mean?
First of all, the term "ganking" is now widely misused. No longer does it mean a group of people killing a lone adversary, but rather just killing someone in general. In a way, the "gankfest" argument is just as moralistic as the "coward" argument - it's rooted in the idea that open world, non-consensual PVP is somehow unfair and that a game in which unprepared, ungeared, or unexperienced players might die at the hand of another player automatically turn into "gankfests".
The root of the problem here is that many people confuse the FFA logic with the themepark logic. They believe that farming mobs/harvesting/questing in peace is some sort of human right, and that getting killed by another player while doing it constitutes an infringement of this human right. What they fail to realize is that the whole point of a FFA game is that the world is not 100% safe and that the game should be played accordingly.
If that's not your cup of tea, play some other game. You've got plenty to chose from.
"FFA PVP is a griefer's paradise"
While griefing of course happens in FFA games, it would be very naïve to think that PVE games are somehow safe from it. As a matter of fact, griefing can be much worse in games like WOW, where someone can harrass you in many ways without you being able to do anything about it. If the same situation occurs in a FFA game, you have the freedom to kill the harrasser, take his stuff, burn down his house and harrass his guild in multiple ways.
In other words: yes, FFA PVP is a griefer's paradise, but so are all multiplayer games. In FFA games the griefer has to be a competent and dedicated player to get away with his griefing.
"FFA PVP games are not commercially successful, which means they are bad"
Probably the worst argument ever. First of all, it's just false. EVE is one of the most successful MMOs of all time, with a strong player retention and a very active development - despite being an almost ten years old niche FFA game. DayZ, a buggy FFA mod (with permadeath) for a buggy military simulator, has attracted over a million players to date, a standalone is in the works and the WarZ, a simliar game from another dev, is getting loads of attention as we speak. Darkfall: Unholy Wars is another upcoming FFA title with a lot of hype.
So, it seems FFA games can attract quite a substantial audience. But even if the above argument was based on facts, it would be false. All games do not need WoW-like numbers to be successful, and a product can be extremely qualitative without being a mainstream hit - otherwise we would all be eating at McDonald's read Twilight books, and watch Hollywood movies exclusively.
FFA is not for everyone, but its audience is not as small as some people like to claim.
"This game would be great if it had a PVE server"
This argument usually comes from people who claim to be sandbox players. They want "a game like this" just without the FFA PVP, and so they come to the forums of said game clamoring for a PVE server, hoping that the devs will suddenly change their development focus just because these players want them to.
It is a very stupid argument and shows a total lack of understanding for game development. Usually the reasoning goes like this: "adding a PVE server is very easy and would not impact the PVP server in any way, so why are you guys so against it?"
Well, to begin with it's not that easy. A separate PVE server would require a lot of the devs' (often limited) resources, since it would differ in fundamental ways from the PVP server. A FFA game's whole core systems are built around PVP, so just changing them is no trivial matter. Designing and coding a separate ruleset for a game that is not designed for said ruleset would be a terrible waste of time and effort, and for what? So that people who don't even like the game to begin with can play it?
No, some gamers need to realize that games exist that do not cater to them - and never will. If you don't enjoy FFA PVP, don't play FFA PVP games. To each his own. You don't see FFA enthusiasts coming into the LOTRO forums demanding a FFA server, now do you?
"The devs will want to make money, so why don't they just remove the FFA PVP and attract more players?"
This line of reasoning is usually accompanied by some hobby economics bullshit, and just goes to show that sadly, many people believe money is the ultimate be-all end-all and that anyone not pursuing ultimate profit rates is out of his mind. These people can not understand that some devs primarily want to make a good game, a game they want to play, not make shitloads of money.
Of course, most devs need to make some money, or the game will die. But as mentioned above, all games do not need to have WOW-like numbers to be successful. Removing FFA and catering to the mainstream would be contrary to the core philosophy behind a game like DF, DayZ or Salem. It would not be the same game.
Also, it annoys me that some random forum people have the gall to try and tell devs (who have usually spent years developing the game) how to run their business - as if these entitled, spoiled, selfish internet brats knew better what the game in question needs. This of course goes for a lot of badly thought-out, opinionated bullshit floating around the gaming community, not only regarding FFA PVP games but games in general.
Well that's all folks. Please feel free to add your own examples of prejudices, failed reasoning and bad arguments!
I agree with a lot of what you said here. I thing the arguments are made between people that shouldn't be looking at certain games, yet they do anyway. Okay, that sounded confusing, i'll explain. The two biggest arguments I hear are:
1. FFA PVP is just stupid, you can't get anything done because of the gankers/griefers, thats why these games fail.
- The response to this is simple, people saying this are pver's that also enjoy pvp. They want both sides to a game, and some controlled pvp, which is fine...but to often these people feel the need to get in on a conversation and in a game that really isn't going to fit their taste. Example would be Darkfall...why would a player that enjoys pve and controlled pvp want to even look at Darkfall? It doesn't make sense.
2. This game has limited to no pvp, when will companies learn that they need pvp to succeed
-This now is the pvp community chiming in on a game they have no business chiming in on. For example, TSW...a game dominated by situational based pve with an element of pvp. Pvpers have no business even posting trash talk in the forums or about this game as that wasn't the intent behind the game.
So basically, the problems come down to our own communities and people trying to make every game fit their desire as opposed to finding the game that really does fit their desire.
Incognito www.incognito-gaming.us "You're either with us or against us"
Lots of pve players judge pvp players based on "pvp players" in heavy pve games with tacked on half arsed pvp - e.g. wow
There's a world of difference between that and pvping in a gvg game like eve or a rvr game like daoc. As in those games you have to cooperate, you have to build relationship you won't get far as a lone wolf.
Afhn: Up until around 3 months before release, tsw was promoted as having a rvr endgame. If they didn't want pissed off pvpers on their forum they should have either a) not done a huge amount of promotion based on pvp (battle for agartha / the secret WAR etc..) or b) not listened to the whiny ex EQ/ wow crowd who infested the closed beta and then made changes to the game (for the worse imo)
1 it is ALWAYS done poorly,pvp has MANY ideas that should be incorporated into it,but devs are just throwing out cheap pvp to get more game sales.
2 pvp is a direct contradiction to the term role playing.If i am roleplaying a crafter for example,do you think it realistic that as a crafter i would have people attacking me every hour of the day?Even as a warrior ,i wouldn't be fighting every minute,there is so much more to life than just fighting.That is the MAIN problem ,once pvp is introduced the focus becomes ONLY pvp and is a detriment to the rest of the game world and the RP'ing aspects.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Comments
Good post altogether, however can you not admit that some people, lets call them asshats, will abuse such a system and cause the problems described as FFAPVP is for cowards and FFAPVP is a gankfest.
I don't think anyone is saying thats ALL they are. But they are saying that sometimes you join a game like this a year after launch, you leave the start town as a lvl 1 character with a wooden stick and some gimp in a gimpsuit and powersword of flashy fire cuts you down, and if that isnt enough, he stays there to do it again next time you leave.
Now I am not saying I agree with this point of view but I firmly beleive that there is nothing wrong with ffapvp, its that some ppl hugely abuse the system and those people are cowards and they do turn portions of these games into gankfests. The arguement is valid except its an arguement against asshats and not against ffapvp.
If you continue to make sweeping statements like you know what everyone everywhere thinks about a certain topic then I am going to shout at you.
It easy to type 'I think this is the worst game ever'
Rather than the 'This is the worst game ever'
At the beginning of gaming you didn't do it to player controlled characters.
There is a difference between PVE and PVP exactly because you -know- they are actually real people.
Its easy to disassociate yourself from killing an AI-controlled opponent that was purposefully put there by the game designer to be killed. Games then usually manufacture some motivation to kill that NPC, like "he killed the other NPCs wife" or "its the devil".
You kill it, feel righteous and move on.
With player controlled characters its different. The game designers didn't put them there for you to kill. The game designers gave you no motivation for you to kill them.
If you kill them, its of your own motivation, and you know they are essentially other people (because thats what your avatar actually is in a game, your representation).
I'm not calling people sociopaths or crook potentials, i said its because the game-design and player-behavior doesn't behave as it should (i.e. what people EXPECT) its equated to it.
We can have a debate on if this perception is valid, but it is the perception, and its caused by behavior that would irl be considered sociopathic.
I love these assanine arguments. No my opinion is more valid then yours. Give the consumer a choice and let them decide or you the developer choose one niche over another. It is really that simple.
I've played ffa pvp games, started mmos with UO in 98 and it wasn't that bad. I'll fully admit that. It had it's pros and cons. But now that I have a choice I will never choose to be someone else's unwilling content again. I like my pve and my pvp I just don't like them together.
So what was your motivation?
Dominance over other players?
Spot on you pretty much nailed it.
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
I've been saying that for a long time. Apparently it's only being a "sociopath" when the other guy does it.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
It's weird I had no interest in a permadeath style game until I played DayZ.
From reading these forums I had always assumed that these games were filled with idiots who just spawn killed new players over and over, leaving the rest of the game a barren wasteland.
In DayZ it's about surviving and collecting nice loot, but when you die you will lose everything you have collected. At first this put me off but then I learned more about the game and I knew where I had a chance of finding decent equipment and I was off and away forgetting about what I had just lost and playing happily again.
I have never been spawn killed in that game, my characters have survived for over 24 hours multiple times and I have spent time watching other players in game and avoiding them easily.
There are assholes in it that will kill me for no reason, it's happened multiple times, but in WoW I got spawn camped, someone in my group wiped us over and over, ninja'd loot, stole from the guild bank. Assholes are everywhere.
I still don't understand why people that don't like permadeath or pvp games even bother commenting on them, I don't like LOTRO and I never go to there website or forums or any fan forum to tell them to change the game.
If a developer wants to take a risk and make a niche game then for goodness sake let them! We need more developers making niche games otherwise we are just going to be surrounded by Call Of Duty 16, Assassins Creed 12, Madden 2050 and World Of Warcraft 30th anniversary edition.
Not everyone is out to make as much money as possible, I'd rather play a quality game with 5 people than a mediocre one with 100,000. Some devs are happy earning a wage to live on and being able to make games they would like to play, that is the dream, getting paid to do what you love! Why would you trade that for just making as much money as possibly but being morally bankrupt?
Only 2 MMOs manage to have a good balance between PVE and PVP crowds in a FFA PVP MMO and that is UO and EvE.
Why you ask, well It's quite simple both games have plenty of things to do besides killing other players, simple as that.
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
I am all about the OW-PVP-FFA with full loot sandbox but it has to be done right. The game has to be built for it from the ground up and we've yet to really see one other than Darkfall and Aventurine's amateurness shined through on their first go. Maybe this time around DF:UW will turn some heads but to be honest I'm not sure they have fully realized the concept. If only they could pick my brain they'd be in business. hahaha. I'm sure we all feel that way though
Oh yeah probs to EVE and UO, was talking more on new age fantasy side of things but they held it down.
I'm a unique and beautiful snowflake.
There are no good arguments for FFA PvP games not existing. There are only good arguments for why a particular player won't play a FFA PvP game. It's really up to the developers what they do with the information.
The guys who write Darkfall have no intention of writing a game that doesn't revolve around FFA PvP, no matter how many people complain about it. The guys who write The War Z are considering things other than FFA PvP because many players made it clear that they wouldn't play the game if it kept the FFA PvP aspects of the game. The Darkfall vision includes FFA PvP, while The War Z's vision isn't set on FFA PvP as part of the game...something else is the driving factor. Both developers are doing the right thing, which is write the games based on their vision for the games.
** edit **
However, whining about people whining about FFA PvP is still whining.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Perpetuum too, actuality its easier on pveers than eve.
Been screamed at by a 12 on vent for not following some instructions off of the internet to the letter
Had a ticking off from a guild master for bring 10 minutes late, lime they're my second origin boss
Been harassed to grind harder by said second boss because we need to progress to the next tier
Seen people cry and leave because they didn't get any shinnies
Had to deal with guild splitting in two because one guild leaders wife was having relations with another senior guild member
Gone on holiday for two weeks and had half the guild turn against me for letting the side down.
Had a guys kid brother rock up and immediately get promoted to main tank and snuffle all the loot.
Have a guild leader do a runner with all the money in the bank because a couple of players weren't sensitive enough to her needs
Had to deal with a sex pest who kept pestering female guild members
All of which have happened to me in pve guilds on several occasions (all of them happend more than once) You get more messed up people in hardcore pve guilds than you ever get in pvp guilds.
Pvpers play to escape reality for a while with a bit of mindless "violence"
Hardcore pveers play to replace reality.
You didn't really counter any of the "arguments".
In the end it doesn't matter, most people don't like the idea of FFA PVP in the first place. The fact that you resort to calling people butthurt doesn't exactly help your argument either. FFA PVP absolutely attracts a lot of griefers and people I'd never want to play the same game with.
Whenever I read people saying things like this, I wonder what I'm doing so badly wrong in EVE. I've been subbed for over 6 years, 90% of which was in the "FFA" zone of 0.0 space. Most of the people there have been reasonably intelligent, nice and sociable.
My observation is that the unpleasant types seem to cluster in the "Limited PvP" zone of Empire space. One is tempted to speculate that the jerks live in the less rigorous conditions there because surviving in 0.0 takes a lot of teamwork and trust, plus the insight and patience required to be willing to put one's ego and short-term gain to the side in order for one's group to thrive (to the overall benefit of each member).
In short, if you're worried about dealing with jerks, play a game that's too harsh for them to survive in.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Actually the "which is a preposterous claim to say the least." was an edit error on my part. I did not mean to leave that in when editing out the rest. My apologies for the confusion there.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
its an intresting discussion to say the least. The biggest problem is perception. There are enough players ganking and griefing to cause this. People will have a perception that only sociopathics play this that get off on other peoples misery are justified when in this example: "Oh look a lvl 5 noob let's get him!" when your lvl 50 says it all. Im sure many players who take up the challenge to play these games hope that the general player base will leave them alone (except the same lvl peeps) until they can be an honorable challenge. Unfortunately this is rarely the case. There are many players who dont do this, but unfortunately there are enough that cause the perception to continue.
In SWTOR I went to alderaan to collect some datacrons and ran into lv 30's I didnt attack them. Why? because im honorable enough to the gamer community not to do this...unless they are stupid to attack me.
If there were more safeguards in place like Eve somewhat has then it wouldnt be as much an issue. You go into low or null sec you know what your getting into. Maybe.
All my opinions are just that..opinions. If you like my opinions..coolness.If you dont like my opinion....I really dont care.
Playing: ESO, WOT, Smite, and Marvel Heroes
There's really only one valid argument against FFA PVP, and that is "I don't enjoy the play style so therefore I'm not going to participate".
The how and why really aren't important.
(The above view does not reflect the poster's opinion on whether or not he personally enjoy's FFA PVP MMO's)
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
My observation is that the unpleasant types seem to cluster in the "Limited PvP" zone of Empire space. One is tempted to speculate that the jerks live in the less rigorous conditions there because surviving in 0.0 takes a lot of teamwork and trust, plus the insight and patience required to be willing to put one's ego and short-term gain to the side in order for one's group to thrive (to the overall benefit of each member).
In short, if you're worried about dealing with jerks, play a game that's too harsh for them to survive in.
Eve has more than PvP for the sake of PvP going for it. The point of the game is to build something and the developers put systems in place to make this happen. The opposite of this that comes to mind for me is The War Z and the Day Z Arma II mod. The point very quickly becomes killing other players for the sake of killing other players. It's not that much different than OW PvP in theme park games. Players aren't building anything and they aren't investing anything into the game, so the games don't offer enough to keep players, and then they complain about the obvious problem...PvP.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The foul-mouthed little jerks that play FPS on consoles are disturbingly similar to PVP players.
The PVP community has an incredibly bad reputation and has lost all the respect of PVE players, PVE players turned against their playstyle and there's nothing that will change that.
The PVP gameplay tends to be ridiculous, instead of cooperating and strategy it's one big gankfest showing off their e-peen.
I don't play MMO to compete, I play to cooperate.
The age group of PVP players often includes little children who get off on ganking. They are not trustworthy, they're scum that shouldn't be allowed online.
If a game doesn't have PVE servers I'm not touching it. I stay away from PVP players, they're a huge turnoff.
Ok.. first of all you contradict yourself. FFA PvP is 90% for loot, and FFA PvP dont behave like real life. What do you think most of the time is pvp(war, murder, robbery etc.) in real live? It is about money.
But the even more important part is, and should be 100% clear to start with, is, that MMORPGS are not real live, they are fantasy, and should be fantasy.. isnt it the first reason to play it?
And yes.. the economic part of ffa pvp is huge and one of the driving parts of that game. It is not just about the fight, it is about targets, about consequences for a fight.
And by the way about robbery simulators.. i really enjoyed the "i stole a million dollar" games.
Another sidenote. i like those games, and it is not even about the pvp. It is about the meta game(which of course involves pvp), about the working ingame economy(mostly in games with loot and item degration). Where to earn money, be it with pvp, or crafting or gathering resources, is more challenging(because you have to adopt to the ffa pvp environment), and your income/advantage/reward is much higher.
And more often than not i play some kind of crafter/trader/resource gatherer.. but the truth is, that i enjoy this only in ffa pvp games with full loot(or kind of like Eve). Of course i like more or less all kind of pvp, too.
So.. there are a lot of reason why FFA pvp with loot is just compeletly different than any other pvp mmo.
And about the fair fight. For that i rather play RTS or FPS games, because MMORPGS suck anyways in that department.. at least from my experience, and in my humble opinion. But FFA pvp with full loot, with meta game, and the economy play is just available in MMORPGs, because you need a lot of players and a huge world for that.. you cant do that in a usual multiplayer game with 2-64 players.
I agree with a lot of what you said here. I thing the arguments are made between people that shouldn't be looking at certain games, yet they do anyway. Okay, that sounded confusing, i'll explain. The two biggest arguments I hear are:
1. FFA PVP is just stupid, you can't get anything done because of the gankers/griefers, thats why these games fail.
- The response to this is simple, people saying this are pver's that also enjoy pvp. They want both sides to a game, and some controlled pvp, which is fine...but to often these people feel the need to get in on a conversation and in a game that really isn't going to fit their taste. Example would be Darkfall...why would a player that enjoys pve and controlled pvp want to even look at Darkfall? It doesn't make sense.
2. This game has limited to no pvp, when will companies learn that they need pvp to succeed
-This now is the pvp community chiming in on a game they have no business chiming in on. For example, TSW...a game dominated by situational based pve with an element of pvp. Pvpers have no business even posting trash talk in the forums or about this game as that wasn't the intent behind the game.
So basically, the problems come down to our own communities and people trying to make every game fit their desire as opposed to finding the game that really does fit their desire.
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There's a world of difference between that and pvping in a gvg game like eve or a rvr game like daoc. As in those games you have to cooperate, you have to build relationship you won't get far as a lone wolf.
Up until around 3 months before release, tsw was promoted as having a rvr endgame. If they didn't want pissed off pvpers on their forum they should have either a) not done a huge amount of promotion based on pvp (battle for agartha / the secret WAR etc..) or b) not listened to the whiny ex EQ/ wow crowd who infested the closed beta and then made changes to the game (for the worse imo)
I only have two arguments...
1 it is ALWAYS done poorly,pvp has MANY ideas that should be incorporated into it,but devs are just throwing out cheap pvp to get more game sales.
2 pvp is a direct contradiction to the term role playing.If i am roleplaying a crafter for example,do you think it realistic that as a crafter i would have people attacking me every hour of the day?Even as a warrior ,i wouldn't be fighting every minute,there is so much more to life than just fighting.That is the MAIN problem ,once pvp is introduced the focus becomes ONLY pvp and is a detriment to the rest of the game world and the RP'ing aspects.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.