The idea of a holy trinity is a good one, because tanking, crowd control, and healing gives different roles to players, but the meat tank gamestyle with just healer keeping you alive has to change. Mmorpg's needs to give less tools for threat control, more tools for movement control, active self-preservation like block and dodge, and more variation of self-healing.
Finally, tab-target combat like we know it has to die for us to have a real movement away from the trinity gamestyle.
Originally posted by aphydork Please don't compare Bruce Lee to Jackie Chan.
Comparing styles of entertainment - not martial arts ability or "who would win in a fight". Their fictional selves, however, it would be the perfect nemesis fight, the 1-inch punch vs the (lazy) drunken master.
I think there are potentially different levels of combat that need to be equally interesting eg dual 1v1, party and armies. But generally anyone should be able to stick the pointy end in another char if they are close enough and "get a free shot". It's same problem with movies where the hero gets the %^&* kicked-out of them, then does one super mario punch and wins!
Guild Wars 2 does it poorly, actually. The combat is solid, but the dungeons and bosses aren't designed specifically to take advantage of the system. For as well done all the other parts of the game are, the dungeons are very generic and reminiscent of those found in your mediocre Asian MMOs.
Anyway, people simply forgot that non-trinity games exist--which, essentially, are all multiplayer games that do not require you to be any specific character, class, or role. No one ever questioned it.
Players are simply questioning it now due to Guild Wars 2 having put so much emphasis on it.
I just disagree when it comes to the dungeon encounters. I think they're great and varied compared to most other dungeon experiences I've had. It has many different types of events and bosses scattered throughout and the sheer variety keeps things interesting for me.
Maybe you could name some of these non-trinity games that have come out in the post-WoW era. I know that I've played a lot of EVE and it is basically non-trinity. Some FFA PvP focused games like Darkfall and Mortal have no trinity - but they also don't really have any PvE that is interesting. Maybe I'm just not thinking about them right now, but what are some PvE based MMORPGs without trinity gameplay that have come out in the last decade?
You know I've seen people say this, and its really not true. While it is possible to fight in EVE without using trinity mechanics, usually the victors in any encounter are using a blend of DPS, (Sniper/Short Range, AOE) Crowd Control, (webbing/scramming) Buffing/Debuffing (sensor/tracking boosts and deboosts) and Healing. (Shield/Armor Repping)
Tanking is about the only role that doesn't play much into the forumla, however during the PVE content of Wormholes and Incursions the NPC's do focus fire on specific ships who find themselves basically the tank of the moment. (a la GW2 I suppose)
In fact, when flying Incursions we have roles such as the AAA (anchor) which the logistics (healers) circle as they move through the event and it is a high priority target to keep alive (we put it at the top of the repping watch list). There's also the Drone bunny who everyone lends their "pets" (drones) to who targets them enmasse on the smaller npc ships.
Most MMO's really are more fun if designed around certain roles, sure GW2 may have changed their names, and tossed in more randomness (which older MMO's such as DAOC had back in the day) but having no roles at all during combat makes for less fun gameplay in my book, might as well just let everyone omniclass and do it all.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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I think alot of posters are over-simplifying the levels involved in the Trinity.
When you talk five man dungeons, sure you can do the no-trinity....might die alot but that's cool, if that's your thing. When talking about raids where there are 10, 20 and up to 40 (30 actually doing something) the trinity expands itself to sub-groups.
Tanks - There will be a Main Tank that covers the main boss and keeps him company. The off-tank, which does a MUCH different job in a well designed raid, will be running around keeping adds off of everyone in the group (I can give an example if you ask). I've been an MT and an OT for most of my MMO days.
DPS - Melee DPS will typically be on the main mob, unless the trash running around has too many hit points, or a blast timer, then they'll switch to trash in between. Ranged DPS will do the same, but will also take trash down even it it doesnt have the hit points/blast timer thing going on. Support DPS is hard to explain. Ill use the Shaman in WoW (I know...I just committed a sin)....if you know anything about that class...they are support/dps...can also heal too (depending on spec).
Healers - MT Heals will be on the Main tank at all times. Group Healer will keep up everyone else and also cleanse. In certain fights, healers, at times, can only use HoT's (by design as Ive seen in a few raid fights) and that's a whole other aspect and strategy to heal through.
My point is that with all these seperate roles, a developer can build a raid encounter that tests all of them and a good/great dev will. This will cause immense pre-game strategy preperation along with in-fight awareness. If one person goes down, it sinks/severely cripples the entire ship. That's the essence of team work...that's why dungeons/raids and trinity were designed.
Without Trinity/no classes, the Dev has only one strategy to build an encounter on. Lots of random AoE/DoT spells, with Abundent HP's and a very strong hit.
The reason they can't go further than that is because it would be impossible for a dev to understand exactly who is going into these raids/dungeons, since there are no roles....oh wait, im sorry....support/dps.
So to put it simply, a trinity based raid developed by people worth their salt have more tools to work with when building an encounter. Without the trinity, the dev will be forced to go the generic route.
Maybe you could name some of these non-trinity games that have come out in the post-WoW era. I know that I've played a lot of EVE and it is basically non-trinity.
Vindictus, Borderlands 2, Dark Souls, Diablo 3. To name a few. Think outside of MMOs.
Literally, any multiplayer game that does not require you to pick your character and teammates accordingly. These games have tanks, healers, and damage dealers, but encounters are designed so that you do not need any specific combination to be successful.
The arguments against Trinity have nothing to do with the GENRE.
That is why it makes no sense to claim you need change.It is like saying you need to take hockey sticks out of hockey.
Games that remove or try to remove classes are forgetting that to role play a class,you actually NEED to have a class.
Instead what the gaames are dong is just tossing out a bunch of non organized structure and let the players pick bits and pieces of anything.
The Healer argument has been the worst.With no realistic death in gaming,you cannot claim that a healer is not needed.If you are healing as a player,you are NOT DPS'ing,that means you are a jack of all trades but not playing efficiently or in an organized manner.
If you look at any type of combat in real life,there is a structure and some form of organized combat.You don't for example give two boxers ,one a baseball bat and one a tennis raquet.it changes the whole Genre.No matter your EXCUSE for a game to cater to YOU,two boxers NEED to have boxing glovesa referee and a ring.If you want changes you do things like maybe chage the size of gloves or the time they fight each round or change some of the rules/penalties.
Even if you step outside the Fantasy realm,lets use Eve for example.it is a space game,the whole premise of the game is pvp combat using ships,therefore you ARE a ship captain.If you remove that ROLE you are NOT delivering a ROLE playing game.Now Eve does things that also are backwards and take away from that ROLE experience.Things like giving automated skills that are gained by simply putting a hceck mark in a box,i doubt ANYONE had ever imagined role playing as a player making check marks in a box.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Guild Wars 2 does it poorly, actually. The combat is solid, but the dungeons and bosses aren't designed specifically to take advantage of the system. For as well done all the other parts of the game are, the dungeons are very generic and reminiscent of those found in your mediocre Asian MMOs.
Anyway, people simply forgot that non-trinity games exist--which, essentially, are all multiplayer games that do not require you to be any specific character, class, or role. No one ever questioned it.
Players are simply questioning it now due to Guild Wars 2 having put so much emphasis on it.
I just disagree when it comes to the dungeon encounters. I think they're great and varied compared to most other dungeon experiences I've had. It has many different types of events and bosses scattered throughout and the sheer variety keeps things interesting for me.
Maybe you could name some of these non-trinity games that have come out in the post-WoW era. I know that I've played a lot of EVE and it is basically non-trinity. Some FFA PvP focused games like Darkfall and Mortal have no trinity - but they also don't really have any PvE that is interesting. Maybe I'm just not thinking about them right now, but what are some PvE based MMORPGs without trinity gameplay that have come out in the last decade?
You know I've seen people say this, and its really not true. While it is possible to fight in EVE without using trinity mechanics, usually the victors in any encounter are using a blend of DPS, (Sniper/Short Range, AOE) Crowd Control, (webbing/scramming) Buffing/Debuffing (sensor/tracking boosts and deboosts) and Healing. (Shield/Armor Repping)
Tanking is about the only role that doesn't play much into the forumla, however during the PVE content of Wormholes and Incursions the NPC's do focus fire on specific ships who find themselves basically the tank of the moment. (a la GW2 I suppose) In fact, when flying Incursions we have roles such as the AAA (anchor) which the logistics (healers) circle as they move through the event and it is a high priority target to keep alive (we put it at the top of the repping watch list).
Most MMO's really are more fun if designed around certain roles, sure GW2 may have changed their names, and tossed in more randomness (which older MMO's such as DAOC had back in the day) but having no roles at all during combat makes for less fun gameplay in my book, might as well just let everyone omniclass and do it all.
I almost wrote a disclaimer in there to describe what you are saying in less words. Then I got to the part where I realized there was no tank.
You guys sound exceptionally organized and as you probably know, not everyone rolls in like you do. The trinity is not, in any way, a requirement in EVE. It is absolutely a requirement in, say, WoW - or any other holy trinity based game. EVE gives you the option to build your fleet so that it somewhat resembles a holy trinity game, but in no way are you forced to come anywhere close to that.
GW2 also offers this experience. You can build your group to resemble a holy trinity group and be quite successful, but in no way are you forced to do it that way. And in reality, shifting strategies are what works best in most of the encounters. Sometimes there is a DPS race where having that strong support character will hinder the group. Sometimes there is a need for on demand condition removal.
The game doesn't feel at all like the classes are overly homogenized. I was worried about this. But in sPvP, you can really feel the difference between the classes. Really, the customization is one of my favorite parts of the game.
Maybe you could name some of these non-trinity games that have come out in the post-WoW era. I know that I've played a lot of EVE and it is basically non-trinity.
Vindictus, Borderlands 2, Dark Souls, Diablo 3. To name a few. Think outside of MMOs.
Literally, any multiplayer game that does not require you to pick your character and teammates accordingly. These games have tanks, healers, and damage dealers, but encounters are designed so that you do not need any specific combination to be successful.
Games with the trinity are actually the minority.
Yeah... I meant in the MMORPG genre. That is where I place GW2 and is probably why it has been such a tough transition for so many people in dungeons.
I guess Vindictus might be one? I haven't played it. Is it an MMORPG or more like GW1?
Anyway, I thought it was understood we were referring to MMORPG combat.
I can understand your limiting it to MMOs if you wanted to be referred to another game to play, but these games are designed to have players versus their environment without needing the trinity.
Guild Wars could definitely take from them. In some cases, it could gain from their combat like in Vindictus and Dark Souls, but if not applicable, it could learn from the dungeon and boss design.
This topic has come up a lot on the GW2 forums. I think that the problem many have with GW2 specifically is that it seems too easy. In general PvE, you don't need defensive skills, crowd control, support skills or combos. You can usually just run into an event, mash buttons randomly and receive some sort of a reward. Then, when people go into dungeons using their glass cannon builds that can only DPS, they get slaughtered and go complain on the forums. So, the problem is mostly that GW2 gives the players too much credit. They're supposed to read tooltips and ook mechanics up, but most modern gamers won't do that.
The grandpa of all RPGs, D&D, doesn't have a trinity setup. It's not mandatory in any shape or form, but it does narrow down the list of what you have to keep track of, making combat cleared and more accessible. Personally, I think enemies should go after logical targets and not the big guy who's scary, but doesn't do much damage.
If games had intelligent AI, very few people would consider it fun. We dumb down AI, because we are incapable of dealing with truly intelligent enemies.
I personally hate the trinity but a friend of mine has argued somewhat convincingly that you cannot escape the trinity in MMORPGs.
Argument: In GW2 the dungeons seem to involve a lot of dying and rezzing to respawn point because there is no tank to soak all of the damage and slow things down. My friend argues that this demonstrates the need for the trinity in order to avoid the high rate of attrition and respawn in boss fights compared to other games.
Anyone agree with that idea?
No but when you replace it you have to replace it with something, not like GW 2 which took out the trinity system and replaced it with nothing. Just a bunch of classes which does mainly DPS and only some healing, CC, debuff etc but not consistent enough to fill any other role beside pure DPS.
There could be a new kind of role in mmorpgs.... in fact Guild Wars showed the way, but they forgot it in Guild Wars 2. Another role could be the crowd controller. In addition to dps, healer and tank, we could have the CC to control either the boss or the waves of minions.
Well GW2 DOES infact have a trinity, involving Support/Damage/Crowd Control. Its not as clean as a normal trinity which is why it can be messy but lacking it will make dungeons very difficult.
They are two different things. Offense, defense and support are common roles in ANY battle - real, videogame or otherwise - but that isn't the trinty. The trinity is specifically Tank, DPS, Healer. The tank is based on taunt/aggro mechanics. Without taunt, the class is useless.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The trinity system isn't unavoidable, but I think you have to look at implementing a Mass Effect style combat system in your MMORPG to get away from it successfully. The trinity lite of Guild Wars 2 is just making sure everyone has a slice of cherry, pumpkin and apple on their plate. That would kick ass in real life, but in a video game, I didn't find it to be a lot of fun... especially combined with quickslot combat. The best approach is to make sure that you have distinct roles, and create as many different roles as possible. I enjoy grouping up for challenges in Champions Online and The Secret World far more than Guild Wars 2.
Well GW2 DOES infact have a trinity, involving Support/Damage/Crowd Control. Its not as clean as a normal trinity which is why it can be messy but lacking it will make dungeons very difficult.
They are two different things. Offense, defense and support are common roles in ANY battle - real, videogame or otherwise - but that isn't the trinty. The trinity is specifically Tank, DPS, Healer. The tank is based on taunt/aggro mechanics. Without taunt, the class is useless.
Wrong. He didn't call it Offense/Defense/Support; he called it Support/Damage/Crowd Control. Crowd control is damage mitigation. I built my mesmer to be a tank. Could I hold agro? No. Did I have a taunt power? No. What I did was control agro on the mobs that nobody else were fighting... you could almost say I "tanked" them. The words he used are very specific in what they mean in Guild Wars 2. Offense/Defense/Support means whatever it is you want them to and could probably apply equally well to The Sims as they do to Guild Wars 2.
That's what city of heroes does. It has 5 archetypes Defender - not just heal bot, in fact your better off not having a heal bot, but a mixed buffer / damager Tank - which isn't needed, you can use scrappers / controllers instead, they are often also debuffers Blaster - dps Controller - cc / buff / debuff Scrappers - dps / off tank
But you can run any group in coh My regular group was 2 controllers, me doing gravity cc, with radiation debuffs & off heals. Another doing illusion control (like mes in gw2) and force fields (which was our primary "heals") 2 scrappers focusing same target 1 defender doing dark dps and drains
I personally hate the trinity but a friend of mine has argued somewhat convincingly that you cannot escape the trinity in MMORPGs.
Argument: In GW2 the dungeons seem to involve a lot of dying and rezzing to respawn point because there is no tank to soak all of the damage and slow things down. My friend argues that this demonstrates the need for the trinity in order to avoid the high rate of attrition and respawn in boss fights compared to other games.
Anyone agree with that idea?
There are many of us, actually millions of us that have no problem with the trinity.
I personally hate the trinity but a friend of mine has argued somewhat convincingly that you cannot escape the trinity in MMORPGs.
Argument: In GW2 the dungeons seem to involve a lot of dying and rezzing to respawn point because there is no tank to soak all of the damage and slow things down. My friend argues that this demonstrates the need for the trinity in order to avoid the high rate of attrition and respawn in boss fights compared to other games.
Anyone agree with that idea?
That only happens in groups where people don´t have a clue of how to play.
Once you find a balanced group that knows how to play with each other...that doesn´t happen.
So YES, Trinity is perfectly avoidable....some people just don´t like it or are too used to it.
Originally posted by Mannish I love the Trinity but its now needs to branch out more. We need more classes and different types of the classes we have now.
I don't know, Vanguard has 15 classes but if you count the 3 type of shaman then it's 17. Their are all different and none are copy and paste.
Comments
The idea of a holy trinity is a good one, because tanking, crowd control, and healing gives different roles to players, but the meat tank gamestyle with just healer keeping you alive has to change. Mmorpg's needs to give less tools for threat control, more tools for movement control, active self-preservation like block and dodge, and more variation of self-healing.
Finally, tab-target combat like we know it has to die for us to have a real movement away from the trinity gamestyle.
Comparing styles of entertainment - not martial arts ability or "who would win in a fight". Their fictional selves, however, it would be the perfect nemesis fight, the 1-inch punch vs the (lazy) drunken master.
I think there are potentially different levels of combat that need to be equally interesting eg dual 1v1, party and armies. But generally anyone should be able to stick the pointy end in another char if they are close enough and "get a free shot". It's same problem with movies where the hero gets the %^&* kicked-out of them, then does one super mario punch and wins!
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
You know I've seen people say this, and its really not true. While it is possible to fight in EVE without using trinity mechanics, usually the victors in any encounter are using a blend of DPS, (Sniper/Short Range, AOE) Crowd Control, (webbing/scramming) Buffing/Debuffing (sensor/tracking boosts and deboosts) and Healing. (Shield/Armor Repping)
Tanking is about the only role that doesn't play much into the forumla, however during the PVE content of Wormholes and Incursions the NPC's do focus fire on specific ships who find themselves basically the tank of the moment. (a la GW2 I suppose)
In fact, when flying Incursions we have roles such as the AAA (anchor) which the logistics (healers) circle as they move through the event and it is a high priority target to keep alive (we put it at the top of the repping watch list). There's also the Drone bunny who everyone lends their "pets" (drones) to who targets them enmasse on the smaller npc ships.
Most MMO's really are more fun if designed around certain roles, sure GW2 may have changed their names, and tossed in more randomness (which older MMO's such as DAOC had back in the day) but having no roles at all during combat makes for less fun gameplay in my book, might as well just let everyone omniclass and do it all.
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I think alot of posters are over-simplifying the levels involved in the Trinity.
When you talk five man dungeons, sure you can do the no-trinity....might die alot but that's cool, if that's your thing. When talking about raids where there are 10, 20 and up to 40 (30 actually doing something) the trinity expands itself to sub-groups.
Tanks - There will be a Main Tank that covers the main boss and keeps him company. The off-tank, which does a MUCH different job in a well designed raid, will be running around keeping adds off of everyone in the group (I can give an example if you ask). I've been an MT and an OT for most of my MMO days.
DPS - Melee DPS will typically be on the main mob, unless the trash running around has too many hit points, or a blast timer, then they'll switch to trash in between. Ranged DPS will do the same, but will also take trash down even it it doesnt have the hit points/blast timer thing going on. Support DPS is hard to explain. Ill use the Shaman in WoW (I know...I just committed a sin)....if you know anything about that class...they are support/dps...can also heal too (depending on spec).
Healers - MT Heals will be on the Main tank at all times. Group Healer will keep up everyone else and also cleanse. In certain fights, healers, at times, can only use HoT's (by design as Ive seen in a few raid fights) and that's a whole other aspect and strategy to heal through.
My point is that with all these seperate roles, a developer can build a raid encounter that tests all of them and a good/great dev will. This will cause immense pre-game strategy preperation along with in-fight awareness. If one person goes down, it sinks/severely cripples the entire ship. That's the essence of team work...that's why dungeons/raids and trinity were designed.
Without Trinity/no classes, the Dev has only one strategy to build an encounter on. Lots of random AoE/DoT spells, with Abundent HP's and a very strong hit.
The reason they can't go further than that is because it would be impossible for a dev to understand exactly who is going into these raids/dungeons, since there are no roles....oh wait, im sorry....support/dps.
So to put it simply, a trinity based raid developed by people worth their salt have more tools to work with when building an encounter. Without the trinity, the dev will be forced to go the generic route.
Vindictus, Borderlands 2, Dark Souls, Diablo 3. To name a few. Think outside of MMOs.
Literally, any multiplayer game that does not require you to pick your character and teammates accordingly. These games have tanks, healers, and damage dealers, but encounters are designed so that you do not need any specific combination to be successful.
Games with the trinity are actually the minority.
The arguments against Trinity have nothing to do with the GENRE.
That is why it makes no sense to claim you need change.It is like saying you need to take hockey sticks out of hockey.
Games that remove or try to remove classes are forgetting that to role play a class,you actually NEED to have a class.
Instead what the gaames are dong is just tossing out a bunch of non organized structure and let the players pick bits and pieces of anything.
The Healer argument has been the worst.With no realistic death in gaming,you cannot claim that a healer is not needed.If you are healing as a player,you are NOT DPS'ing,that means you are a jack of all trades but not playing efficiently or in an organized manner.
If you look at any type of combat in real life,there is a structure and some form of organized combat.You don't for example give two boxers ,one a baseball bat and one a tennis raquet.it changes the whole Genre.No matter your EXCUSE for a game to cater to YOU,two boxers NEED to have boxing glovesa referee and a ring.If you want changes you do things like maybe chage the size of gloves or the time they fight each round or change some of the rules/penalties.
Even if you step outside the Fantasy realm,lets use Eve for example.it is a space game,the whole premise of the game is pvp combat using ships,therefore you ARE a ship captain.If you remove that ROLE you are NOT delivering a ROLE playing game.Now Eve does things that also are backwards and take away from that ROLE experience.Things like giving automated skills that are gained by simply putting a hceck mark in a box,i doubt ANYONE had ever imagined role playing as a player making check marks in a box.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I almost wrote a disclaimer in there to describe what you are saying in less words. Then I got to the part where I realized there was no tank.
You guys sound exceptionally organized and as you probably know, not everyone rolls in like you do. The trinity is not, in any way, a requirement in EVE. It is absolutely a requirement in, say, WoW - or any other holy trinity based game. EVE gives you the option to build your fleet so that it somewhat resembles a holy trinity game, but in no way are you forced to come anywhere close to that.
GW2 also offers this experience. You can build your group to resemble a holy trinity group and be quite successful, but in no way are you forced to do it that way. And in reality, shifting strategies are what works best in most of the encounters. Sometimes there is a DPS race where having that strong support character will hinder the group. Sometimes there is a need for on demand condition removal.
The game doesn't feel at all like the classes are overly homogenized. I was worried about this. But in sPvP, you can really feel the difference between the classes. Really, the customization is one of my favorite parts of the game.
Yeah... I meant in the MMORPG genre. That is where I place GW2 and is probably why it has been such a tough transition for so many people in dungeons.
I guess Vindictus might be one? I haven't played it. Is it an MMORPG or more like GW1?
Anyway, I thought it was understood we were referring to MMORPG combat.
Was it fun? Did it work well? Was more fun than trinity combat?
Edit: My bad, I skipped your post for some reason.
I can understand your limiting it to MMOs if you wanted to be referred to another game to play, but these games are designed to have players versus their environment without needing the trinity.
Guild Wars could definitely take from them. In some cases, it could gain from their combat like in Vindictus and Dark Souls, but if not applicable, it could learn from the dungeon and boss design.
This topic has come up a lot on the GW2 forums. I think that the problem many have with GW2 specifically is that it seems too easy. In general PvE, you don't need defensive skills, crowd control, support skills or combos. You can usually just run into an event, mash buttons randomly and receive some sort of a reward. Then, when people go into dungeons using their glass cannon builds that can only DPS, they get slaughtered and go complain on the forums. So, the problem is mostly that GW2 gives the players too much credit. They're supposed to read tooltips and ook mechanics up, but most modern gamers won't do that.
The grandpa of all RPGs, D&D, doesn't have a trinity setup. It's not mandatory in any shape or form, but it does narrow down the list of what you have to keep track of, making combat cleared and more accessible. Personally, I think enemies should go after logical targets and not the big guy who's scary, but doesn't do much damage.
If games had intelligent AI, very few people would consider it fun. We dumb down AI, because we are incapable of dealing with truly intelligent enemies.
No but when you replace it you have to replace it with something, not like GW 2 which took out the trinity system and replaced it with nothing. Just a bunch of classes which does mainly DPS and only some healing, CC, debuff etc but not consistent enough to fill any other role beside pure DPS.
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There could be a new kind of role in mmorpgs.... in fact Guild Wars showed the way, but they forgot it in Guild Wars 2. Another role could be the crowd controller. In addition to dps, healer and tank, we could have the CC to control either the boss or the waves of minions.
They have a more important role in PVP though
They are two different things. Offense, defense and support are common roles in ANY battle - real, videogame or otherwise - but that isn't the trinty. The trinity is specifically Tank, DPS, Healer. The tank is based on taunt/aggro mechanics. Without taunt, the class is useless.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Wrong. He didn't call it Offense/Defense/Support; he called it Support/Damage/Crowd Control. Crowd control is damage mitigation. I built my mesmer to be a tank. Could I hold agro? No. Did I have a taunt power? No. What I did was control agro on the mobs that nobody else were fighting... you could almost say I "tanked" them. The words he used are very specific in what they mean in Guild Wars 2. Offense/Defense/Support means whatever it is you want them to and could probably apply equally well to The Sims as they do to Guild Wars 2.
That's what city of heroes does.
It has 5 archetypes
Defender - not just heal bot, in fact your better off not having a heal bot, but a mixed buffer / damager
Tank - which isn't needed, you can use scrappers / controllers instead, they are often also debuffers
Blaster - dps
Controller - cc / buff / debuff
Scrappers - dps / off tank
My regular group was
2 controllers, me doing gravity cc, with radiation debuffs & off heals. Another doing illusion control (like mes in gw2) and force fields (which was our primary "heals")
2 scrappers focusing same target
1 defender doing dark dps and drains
There are many of us, actually millions of us that have no problem with the trinity.
That only happens in groups where people don´t have a clue of how to play.
Once you find a balanced group that knows how to play with each other...that doesn´t happen.
So YES, Trinity is perfectly avoidable....some people just don´t like it or are too used to it.
I don't know, Vanguard has 15 classes but if you count the 3 type of shaman then it's 17. Their are all different and none are copy and paste.
http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/59391
Take the Bloodmage or the Bard or Psionicist or the plate wearing cleric.