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Blizzard sucking money out of Pay Pal accounts.

onlinenow25onlinenow25 San Diego, CAPosts: 275Member

So don't really know were to post this, trying to get a website or someone of some media avenue that can maybe research this or find out more about this issue.

Blizzard has had an error with the RMAH and PayPal and started sending money to players that have not resently sold an item on their RMAH.

Now instead of Blizzard going through what ever means they need to go to to try and get players to send the money back to them they are litterally siphoning the money out of peoples PayPal accounts with out the persons premission.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6933304725?page=1

This is one of the threads about the topic.  Hopefully someone else can screen shot it beofre they delete it.  If not ill have it saved PM me if the screenshot is needed.

Here it is, I REALLY REALLY hope someone on this website can relay this to someone that can make this big news.  It seems like this could lead to a very very serious security breach of some sort in the future 

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Comments

  • fivorothfivoroth LondonPosts: 3,657Member Uncommon

    Blizzard's mistake here but when you receive unexpected money, what do you do? Spend it of course! 

    THis Charlie guy should have queried the transaction with Blizzard lol. Transactions often don't happen instantly and even though you see the balance in your account that money DOESN'T have finality before a couple of days are up. What does that mean? That the other party can CANCEL the transaction without the receiver's permission.

    Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

  • MaggonMaggon CopenhagenPosts: 300Member Uncommon

    Now im not to familiar with the US laws, but isnt it illigal to take money from another persons bank or paypal account in this case - even if it was an error in the first place ? If they money has reached its destination, it shouldn't be possible for blizzard to actually withdraw the money as they shouldn't have access to that account o.O...

     

    Sounds rather odd to me.

  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by fivoroth
    Blizzard's mistake here but when you receive unexpected money, what do you do? Spend it of course! 

    THis Charlie guy should have queried the transaction with Blizzard lol. Transactions often don't happen instantly and even though you see the balance in your account that money DOESN'T have finality before a couple of days are up. What does that mean? That the other party can CANCEL the transaction without the receiver's permission.


    That's right, If you receive an unexpected $1000 in your bank account and spend it, That can be illegal or contested.

    As for someone "extracting" money from accounts with out your consent that is defiantly illegal.

    (at least according to AuS law which may not be relevant)

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  • OG_ZorvanOG_Zorvan Fresno, CAPosts: 615Member

    Blizzard is doing nothing illegal.

    What you all are forgetting is how PayPal works.

    PayPal is it's own separate account.

    Sure, you can have it attached to your credit card or bank account, but it is still only your PayPal acount.

    PayPal is the middle man.

    Person 1 sends money ----> PayPal receives money, ------> gives money to Person 2.

     

    In this case, Blizzard fucks up and sends money ------> PayPal receives money, clears it ------->Sends to Person 2' PayPal account.

    Blizzard realizes their fuck up and notifies PayPal ------> PayPal retrieves the money from your PayPal account --------> PayPal gives money back to Blizzard.

    Blizzard has never taken anything from your credit card or bank, PayPal has.

    AND YOU GAVE THEM PERMISSION when you attached those cards and/or bank accounts.

    EA CEO John Riccitiello's on future microtransactions: "When you are six hours into playing Battlefield and you run out of ammo in your clip, and we ask you for a dollar to reload, you're really not very price sensitive at that point in time...We're not gouging, but we're charging."

  • kaiser3282kaiser3282 Phoenix, AZPosts: 2,690Member Uncommon
    If this is true then wow.... The whole RMAH fiasco with D3 just gets better and better.
  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,949Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Maggon

    Now im not to familiar with the US laws, but isnt it illigal to take money from another persons bank or paypal account in this case - even if it was an error in the first place ? If they money has reached its destination, it shouldn't be possible for blizzard to actually withdraw the money as they shouldn't have access to that account o.O...

    Sounds rather odd to me.

    Nope. If a bank sends you 10 million instead of 10 bucks and you spend the money before they realize it you will go to jail.

    And that is true in any country. The other way around things might be different but unless it say "gift" or something you are screwed. If Blizzard would give you a dollar and accidently gave you a million instead they can take it back though, but that isnt the case here.

    Still, they should be better to inform people and frankly in this case they could have at least given the affected people some in game stuff or something because it is pretty bad PR.

  • kaiser3282kaiser3282 Phoenix, AZPosts: 2,690Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loke666
    Originally posted by Maggon

    Now im not to familiar with the US laws, but isnt it illigal to take money from another persons bank or paypal account in this case - even if it was an error in the first place ? If they money has reached its destination, it shouldn't be possible for blizzard to actually withdraw the money as they shouldn't have access to that account o.O...

    Sounds rather odd to me.

    Nope. If a bank sends you 10 million instead of 10 bucks and you spend the money before they realize it you will go to jail.

    And that is true in any country. The other way around things might be different but unless it say "gift" or something you are screwed. If Blizzard would give you a dollar and accidently gave you a million instead they can take it back though, but that isnt the case here.

    Still, they should be better to inform people and frankly in this case they could have at least given the affected people some in game stuff or something because it is pretty bad PR.

    Whike that is true, this isnt an error on any banks part. It is a private company who screwed up and IMO they should have to take it up with the banks themselves, not simply pull the money back out.

    It would be like me accidentally giving someone too much money for smething I bought off them, then going and breaking into their house and taking it back when I realized it later. Yeah, technically they should just give me that money back, but it desnt give me the right (legally) to forcefully take it back. Theres a reason we have legal systems & courts after all.

  • Hawkeye666Hawkeye666 Hebron, KYPosts: 7Member Uncommon
    At least in the US, this is perfectly legal. You do not have a right to keep any moneys deposited by mistake. Third party financial middlemen have no bearing on the legality. PayPal or you bank, or even you pay check electronically deposited. They can all take back any mistaken overages. Sorry. Though it may well be bad PR, it is not illegal.
  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,949Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by kaiser3282
    Originally posted by Loke666

    Nope. If a bank sends you 10 million instead of 10 bucks and you spend the money before they realize it you will go to jail.

    And that is true in any country. The other way around things might be different but unless it say "gift" or something you are screwed. If Blizzard would give you a dollar and accidently gave you a million instead they can take it back though, but that isnt the case here.

    Still, they should be better to inform people and frankly in this case they could have at least given the affected people some in game stuff or something because it is pretty bad PR.

    Whike that is true, this isnt an error on any banks part. It is a private company who screwed up and IMO they should have to take it up with the banks themselves, not simply pull the money back out.

    It would be like me accidentally giving someone too much money for smething I bought off them, then going and breaking into their house and taking it back when I realized it later. Yeah, technically they should just give me that money back, but it desnt give me the right (legally) to forcefully take it back. Theres a reason we have legal systems & courts after all.

    Banks are companies too, most of them private. And in either case the lawyers would eat you alive in court.

    Yep, it is unfair and as I said, it is also bad PR but you would never win against Blizz in a case like this.

  • MaggonMaggon CopenhagenPosts: 300Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loke666
    Originally posted by Maggon

    Now im not to familiar with the US laws, but isnt it illigal to take money from another persons bank or paypal account in this case - even if it was an error in the first place ? If they money has reached its destination, it shouldn't be possible for blizzard to actually withdraw the money as they shouldn't have access to that account o.O...

    Sounds rather odd to me.

    Nope. If a bank sends you 10 million instead of 10 bucks and you spend the money before they realize it you will go to jail.

    And that is true in any country. The other way around things might be different but unless it say "gift" or something you are screwed. If Blizzard would give you a dollar and accidently gave you a million instead they can take it back though, but that isnt the case here.

    Still, they should be better to inform people and frankly in this case they could have at least given the affected people some in game stuff or something because it is pretty bad PR.

    I once discussed a similar case with my mother who works in bank, the way I described it was how I certainly understood it, if you send money to someone and don't get to cancel the transfer before it has gone through, the person with that money is legally capable of deciding to keep it or not, in case of how it works between individuals and companies I am not entirely certain, but in a banks case no sure if that's differen't or not compared to any other company and an individual.

  • SlickShoesSlickShoes EdinburghPosts: 1,037Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by OG_Zorvan

    Blizzard is doing nothing illegal.

    What you all are forgetting is how PayPal works.

    PayPal is it's own separate account.

    Sure, you can have it attached to your credit card or bank account, but it is still only your PayPal acount.

    PayPal is the middle man.

    Person 1 sends money ----> PayPal receives money, ------> gives money to Person 2.

     

    In this case, Blizzard fucks up and sends money ------> PayPal receives money, clears it ------->Sends to Person 2' PayPal account.

    Blizzard realizes their fuck up and notifies PayPal ------> PayPal retrieves the money from your PayPal account --------> PayPal gives money back to Blizzard.

    Blizzard has never taken anything from your credit card or bank, PayPal has.

    AND YOU GAVE THEM PERMISSION when you attached those cards and/or bank accounts.

    This is true, if you have already spent the money your default payment source will be used to fund the payment because you have paypal the rights to use this when you added it. If you dont have a payment source linked your account with paypal will go in to a negative balance and they will eventually try to retrieve the money from you.

    image
  • saurus123saurus123 nonePosts: 568Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Hawkeye666
    At least in the US, this is perfectly legal. You do not have a right to keep any moneys deposited by mistake. Third party financial middlemen have no bearing on the legality. PayPal or you bank, or even you pay check electronically deposited. They can all take back any mistaken overages. Sorry. Though it may well be bad PR, it is not illegal.

    so wait you tell me someone can deposit money and after some time take it back from my bank account?

     

    no wonder US is so screwed and declare Wars on everyone

     

  • SlickShoesSlickShoes EdinburghPosts: 1,037Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by kaiser3282
    Originally posted by Loke666
    Originally posted by Maggon

    Now im not to familiar with the US laws, but isnt it illigal to take money from another persons bank or paypal account in this case - even if it was an error in the first place ? If they money has reached its destination, it shouldn't be possible for blizzard to actually withdraw the money as they shouldn't have access to that account o.O...

    Sounds rather odd to me.

    Nope. If a bank sends you 10 million instead of 10 bucks and you spend the money before they realize it you will go to jail.

    And that is true in any country. The other way around things might be different but unless it say "gift" or something you are screwed. If Blizzard would give you a dollar and accidently gave you a million instead they can take it back though, but that isnt the case here.

    Still, they should be better to inform people and frankly in this case they could have at least given the affected people some in game stuff or something because it is pretty bad PR.

    Whike that is true, this isnt an error on any banks part. It is a private company who screwed up and IMO they should have to take it up with the banks themselves, not simply pull the money back out.

    It would be like me accidentally giving someone too much money for smething I bought off them, then going and breaking into their house and taking it back when I realized it later. Yeah, technically they should just give me that money back, but it desnt give me the right (legally) to forcefully take it back. Theres a reason we have legal systems & courts after all.

    But the Banks are not involved here, it's between the two people, blizz and the user, and paypal are the middleman. 

    Person A is paid an amount in to his paypal account in error, he doesn't spend it, error is fixed, paypal then removes the funds back to the sender.

    Problems only arise when people take money that was not theirs in the first place, sure it was an error but it's not your money, if you took it out to your bank account and spent it, paypal can still claim it back withdrawing from your default funding device or your balance.

    image
  • SlickShoesSlickShoes EdinburghPosts: 1,037Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by saurus123
    Originally posted by Hawkeye666
    At least in the US, this is perfectly legal. You do not have a right to keep any moneys deposited by mistake. Third party financial middlemen have no bearing on the legality. PayPal or you bank, or even you pay check electronically deposited. They can all take back any mistaken overages. Sorry. Though it may well be bad PR, it is not illegal.

    so wait you tell me someone can deposit money and after some time take it back from my bank account?

     

    no wonder US is so screwed and declare Wars on everyone

     

    Its nothing to do with your bank account though, it's a paypal transaction, I am sure if you read the ToS in paypal it will be stated somewhere that you agree to money being returned to the sender if there is an error.

    image
  • fivorothfivoroth LondonPosts: 3,657Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nitth

     


    Originally posted by fivoroth
    Blizzard's mistake here but when you receive unexpected money, what do you do? Spend it of course! 

     

    THis Charlie guy should have queried the transaction with Blizzard lol. Transactions often don't happen instantly and even though you see the balance in your account that money DOESN'T have finality before a couple of days are up. What does that mean? That the other party can CANCEL the transaction without the receiver's permission.


     

    That's right, If you receive an unexpected $1000 in your bank account and spend it, That can be illegal or contested.

    As for someone "extracting" money from accounts with out your consent that is defiantly illegal.

    (at least according to AuS law which may not be relevant)

    But that's the thing. They can simply CANCEL the transaction not EXTRACT money from your account! How does it work? Quitte a lot of transactions don't actually happen instantly. For example, you get a cheque and you cash it in. You see the balance in your account. What does that mean? It means that transaction has availability (aka you can spend the money or withdraw it). However, that money does not have FINALITY. It will take another 1-2 days for the money to have finality. In this period you can SPEND the money but also the other party can withdraw the transaction without your permission. Once the transaction has finality then they can't take it out of your account.

    Then again they can always charge back the transaction. All of these are perfectly legal. That's why if you receive unexpected money you wait a bit before you spend to make sure that there's no way that money is coming out of your account.

     

    Originally posted by Maggon
    Originally posted by Loke666
    Originally posted by Maggon

    Now im not to familiar with the US laws, but isnt it illigal to take money from another persons bank or paypal account in this case - even if it was an error in the first place ? If they money has reached its destination, it shouldn't be possible for blizzard to actually withdraw the money as they shouldn't have access to that account o.O...

    Sounds rather odd to me.

    Nope. If a bank sends you 10 million instead of 10 bucks and you spend the money before they realize it you will go to jail.

    And that is true in any country. The other way around things might be different but unless it say "gift" or something you are screwed. If Blizzard would give you a dollar and accidently gave you a million instead they can take it back though, but that isnt the case here.

    Still, they should be better to inform people and frankly in this case they could have at least given the affected people some in game stuff or something because it is pretty bad PR.

    I once discussed a similar case with my mother who works in bank, the way I described it was how I certainly understood it, if you send money to someone and don't get to cancel the transfer before it has gone through, the person with that money is legally capable of deciding to keep it or not, in case of how it works between individuals and companies I am not entirely certain, but in a banks case no sure if that's differen't or not compared to any other company and an individual.

    That is true. But as I said seeing the money in your account balance does not mean that the transaction has completely gone through. 

    Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,981Member Uncommon

    This news story has several scenarios in it from around the world, and the overall theme is you have to give the money back.

    In fact, the banks can and will take it back without your permission and banking laws are actually pretty consistent worldwide, it really is a conspiracy.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/23/joseph-bucci-wells-fargo_n_1540549.html

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  • zymurgeistzymurgeist Pittsville, VAPosts: 5,211Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kyleran

    This news story has several scenarios in it from around the world, and the overall theme is you have to give the money back.

    In fact, the banks can and will take it back without your permission and banking laws are actually pretty consistent worldwide, it really is a conspiracy.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/23/joseph-bucci-wells-fargo_n_1540549.html

     It's a conspiracy in the sense that every law ever made is a conspiracy. There's a word for taking things you aren't entitled too also. It's called stealing. If someone overpays you it's your moral and legal duty to return it. So why would this be a problem? If Blizzard takes something they aren't entitled to then it's a problem.

    "Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  • PurutzilPurutzil East Stroudsburg, PAPosts: 2,924Member Uncommon

    Yeah, thats a serious problem. What if I just need money in my paypal for paying bills and the likes, not realizing some of the money was sent accidentally from blizzard? I get screwed over when it gets taken?

     

    Yeah sorry, its fine they get their money back, but they should at least send a warning and actually make note to give them a chance for THEIR mistake. 

  • AethaerynAethaeryn Kitchener, ONPosts: 1,971Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Purutzil

    Yeah, thats a serious problem. What if I just need money in my paypal for paying bills and the likes, not realizing some of the money was sent accidentally from blizzard? I get screwed over when it gets taken?

     

    Yeah sorry, its fine they get their money back, but they should at least send a warning and actually make note to give them a chance for THEIR mistake. 

    If you put money in to pay your bills and you know how much your bill are and how much you put in this should not be a problem.  You want warning when it is taken but you never knew it was there in the first place.

    If you noticed it go in. . then one would expect you would notice it go out as well.

    Either you watch your account or you don't

    If you don't . . you didn't know it was there anyway. . if you do then you would notice both.

    You have to take some responsibililty to monitor accounts you have or you could be a victim of identity theft etc.

     

    Having said all of that, notice would be nice but not something I think should be mandatory. . just good public releations.

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  • RenoakuRenoaku Posts: 1,005Member Uncommon

    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6933304725?page=1

    While I agree it is likely an Error on Blizzards part, it depends how they are sending the money to players.

    If they send it as anything but gift to their paypal account, then the transaction is final, even if it is made in ERROR, this is why you should not use an automated system.

    However if PayPal allows the option to recover this money like I believe gift options they allow you to request refund/charge back, then it is legal.

    However if PayPal does not, and Blizzard places an unauthroized charge without persons consent to their paypal after it is done this could result in Legal issues for Blizzard, reguardless of error or not it could be debated in a court/law under many circumstances.

    While I agree the money should be returned to Blizzard due to a mistake it doesn't give Blizzard the right to bill another persons paypal account if that is what they are doing to get the money back as this could lead to issues for some because of Blizzards mistake.

    In addition if Blizzard is doing this I recommend after you cash out through paypal You Deauthroize blizzard under automatic billing in paypal this will prevent them from doing such.

    http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Are_you_allowed_to_keep_money_which_your_bank_has_put_into_your_account_accidentally

    While this  is correct in a lot of cases such as Banks and probabily does include paypal, they should contact the issuer, or the person and request it back they should not automatically bill it to the user as this could result in legal action being taken against Blizzard I am sure because you did not purchase anything. ( This can de debated due to the Agree payment process with paypal however, but a reason you should always cancel it each time you process a transaction with a company so this can't happen and set it up each time to be safe.

  • OberholzerOberholzer Hasbrouck Heights, NJPosts: 498Member
    Originally posted by saurus123
    Originally posted by Hawkeye666
    At least in the US, this is perfectly legal. You do not have a right to keep any moneys deposited by mistake. Third party financial middlemen have no bearing on the legality. PayPal or you bank, or even you pay check electronically deposited. They can all take back any mistaken overages. Sorry. Though it may well be bad PR, it is not illegal.

    so wait you tell me someone can deposit money and after some time take it back from my bank account?

     

    no wonder US is so screwed and declare Wars on everyone

     

    Yes you're so right, most wars are started by Paypal......

  • adam_noxadam_nox hays, KSPosts: 2,035Member Uncommon

    To clarify misinformation in the first few posts (didn't read some so this may have been said already).  If a bank is the one that made the error, the bank can correct it witout due process.  If someone accidently puts money into your account, they must go through due process to prove that it was some sort of mistake.

     

    However, I'm not saying what they did was wrong, because Paypal isn't a bank, it's not regulated like banks are,  I don't know what their legal classification is, though I've used them for a long time.  I've also heard stories of paypal accounts getting frozen over disputes where people have had thousands of dollars locked down indefinitely.

     

    Paypal typically does what's good for paypal.  Which means a good working relationship with blizzard. 

  • lotapartylotaparty taxila canttPosts: 514Member
    Originally posted by OG_Zorvan

    Blizzard is doing nothing illegal.

    What you all are forgetting is how PayPal works.

    PayPal is it's own separate account.

    Sure, you can have it attached to your credit card or bank account, but it is still only your PayPal acount.

    PayPal is the middle man.

    Person 1 sends money ----> PayPal receives money, ------> gives money to Person 2.

     

    In this case, Blizzard fucks up and sends money ------> PayPal receives money, clears it ------->Sends to Person 2' PayPal account.

    Blizzard realizes their fuck up and notifies PayPal ------> PayPal retrieves the money from your PayPal account --------> PayPal gives money back to Blizzard.

    Blizzard has never taken anything from your credit card or bank, PayPal has.

    AND YOU GAVE THEM PERMISSION when you attached those cards and/or bank accounts.

    but this practice is being done through blizzard game .so both paypal and blizzard are responsible

    image

  • SouldrainerSouldrainer Elmer, NJPosts: 1,857Member
    Originally posted by kaiser3282
    If this is true then wow.... The whole RMAH fiasco with D3 just gets better and better.

    I called this when the Paypal partnership was announced.  It's more secure to publically post your CC # on Facebook than to use Paypal.  People don't want to believe this, but it is true.

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  • William12William12 Saint paul, MNPosts: 680Member

    Regarding US Law.  Here's an example.

     

    If your employer overpays you and finds out they will make you pay it back.   If the IRS over pays you they will take the money back.   Now heres a real life example thati ve seen happen.  

     

    The bank screws up and puts money into your account and you spend it and the bank finds out about the mistake and fixes it.  You're liable for the money you spent and have to pay it back simple as that.

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